Should I dumb down my content for people like @vigilante and @imgal?

[biophase]

Thanks for the constructive feedback, all who replied.

While looking up the suggestion to look into Ryan Holiday, ForeverJobless came to mind as someone who talks about writing long, in depth posts and is someone to model after (not copy...but model).

(text left out cuz i'm not sure if he wants it posted here)

View attachment 15409

Linking to a long article: https://foreverjobless.com/how-to-achieve-goals/

Already implementing this in my emails.

Andrew, I don't think this solves your problem. By writing a short post and linking to your long post, it does not solve your problem. Whether the content is on the forum or on your website, it is the same content with a writing style that people think is too long.

BTW, did you know that it takes Bill 40-60 hours to write one post? How long does it take you? Do you work on your content for a week? That's why he posts once every month or two. People don't think the post is very long because they feel that every paragraph conveys value. His initial draft is probably 2-3x as long as his final post. Do you ever go back and eliminate paragraphs and sentences? I do that all the time, even in my facebook posts that are 1-2 sentences long.

 

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[AndrewNC]

Thank for the info. I remember him Saying that at B&P the year he presented . Editing the motivation post now and cut down a few chunks of paragraphs.

Andrew, I don't think this solves your problem. By writing a short post and linking to your long post, it does not solve your problem. Whether the content is on the forum or on your website, it is the same content with a writing style that people think is too long.

BTW, did you know that it takes Bill 40-60 hours to write one post? How long does it take you? Do you work on your content for a week? That's why he posts once every month or two. People don't think the post is very long because they feel that every paragraph conveys value. His initial draft is probably 2-3x as long as his final post. Do you ever go back and eliminate paragraphs and sentences? I do that all the time, even in my facebook posts that are 1-2 sentences long.

 

[Michael Greene]

So I've been getting a lot of feedback lately that my writing is too long.

My blog posts, email newsletter, guest articles on various websites, and you see some of it here.

@Vigilante and @Imgal - commented on the length of it.

GOLD - I'm sorry, but this is going to be painful for a lot of you...



View attachment 15405

For one of my free offers, I have a 7-part video course (takes an hour to go through) that will teach them everything they need to know in order to fix a specific (large) problem in their life. I created the course knowing that the people who take the time to go through it will 100% have their problem fixed.

• From a business growth perspective - If I solve this problem in their lives - they will be grateful, and they will most likely buy my book and other products in the future if I've already made such an impact for free...
• From a value-add perspective - Why water down my content and give a half-assed approach when the goal is to actually fix a problem?

But then I was talking to a marketing consultant who said it's was wayyyyy too long (along with 50 other people who have said the same thing).

She said instead, I should have a quick 2-minute video or 3 page pdf as a "lead magnet", which people can easily digest. The average attention span is less than that of a goldfish nowadays.

If I dumb down my content, I will get more subscribers, and more people engaged....

The core of my brand is to help people do big things (which require a multi-year attention span). Think similar to the dedication and focus it requires to build a business, or move up in the world of acting/art/sports.

If I dumb down my content, I'll be attracting the type of person who wants the quick fix and doesn't have the persistence to accomplish what the brand helps people accomplish.

So if I make the shorter content, I'll attract the type of people who would rather get their next social media-quick fix; which is not the type of person who usually goes on to these types of things.

Is this really the type of person I want to be helping?

So I'm thinking lately that I shouldn't compromise the quality of what I put out, based on the wrong type of people...

If somebody is truly committed to fixing this problem in their life, they'll go through the hour-long course, or spend 15 minutes to read the long article. And when they do that, they'll actually get everything they need, instead of an easy 7-step bullet point quick fix...which doesn't actually solve the problem.

Which will mean less subscribers...

There are three types of people in this world:

1. The quick-fix zombies who don't have the persistence to build anything big in their lives, yet alone read a 15-minute article or take an hour-long free course that will fix a problem in their life.

2. The ones who have the persistence and actually have the traits that will lead to them being successful.

3. People like Imgal and Vigilante who are already on track and not part of my target market.

My gut is telling me to stick with putting everything out there (not matter how long it takes) to solve the problems of people who are actually committed to taking the time and experience results in their life; instead of watering down the content to attract the wrong people.

Thoughts?

It doesn't make sense to dumb down your content for people that aren't your target. Some times long form is necessary for context, some people just want the moral of the story other people need you to paint the picture for them. If you write for the people who need the picture painted, who cares about the people that don't?

That being said it still doesn't hurt when you're proof reading to see if you something can be said more directly or in a more impactful way. From your initial post it sounds like you already had your mind made though lmao.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

@AndrewNC

First let me say, I respect your effort at improving and growing as both a person and a writer.

However for me, your writing sometimes comes across as too calculated, and not authentic.

Just to give you an example, your chosen thread title "Should I dumb-down my content for Vigilante and Imgal" is a poor title.

I feels CALCULATED and CLICK-BAITY, not authentic. As such, it distracts from your message.

Is that thread title any different than this?

Should I idiot-proof my writing for AndrewNC?

In effect, both titles are insulting and presume idiocy.

In the end, you thought it was more effective insulting two respected forum members over risking less clicks.

 

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[loop101]

So I've been getting a lot of feedback lately that my writing is too long.

My blog posts, email newsletter, guest articles on various websites, and you see some of it here.

@Vigilante and @Imgal - commented on the length of it.

GOLD - I'm sorry, but this is going to be painful for a lot of you...



View attachment 15405

For one of my free offers, I have a 7-part video course (takes an hour to go through) that will teach them everything they need to know in order to fix a specific (large) problem in their life. I created the course knowing that the people who take the time to go through it will 100% have their problem fixed.

• From a business growth perspective - If I solve this problem in their lives - they will be grateful, and they will most likely buy my book and other products in the future if I've already made such an impact for free...
• From a value-add perspective - Why water down my content and give a half-assed approach when the goal is to actually fix a problem?

But then I was talking to a marketing consultant who said it's was wayyyyy too long (along with 50 other people who have said the same thing).

She said instead, I should have a quick 2-minute video or 3 page pdf as a "lead magnet", which people can easily digest. The average attention span is less than that of a goldfish nowadays.

If I dumb down my content, I will get more subscribers, and more people engaged....

The core of my brand is to help people do big things (which require a multi-year attention span). Think similar to the dedication and focus it requires to build a business, or move up in the world of acting/art/sports.

If I dumb down my content, I'll be attracting the type of person who wants the quick fix and doesn't have the persistence to accomplish what the brand helps people accomplish.

So if I make the shorter content, I'll attract the type of people who would rather get their next social media-quick fix; which is not the type of person who usually goes on to these types of things.

Is this really the type of person I want to be helping?

So I'm thinking lately that I shouldn't compromise the quality of what I put out, based on the wrong type of people...

If somebody is truly committed to fixing this problem in their life, they'll go through the hour-long course, or spend 15 minutes to read the long article. And when they do that, they'll actually get everything they need, instead of an easy 7-step bullet point quick fix...which doesn't actually solve the problem.

Which will mean less subscribers...

There are three types of people in this world:

1. The quick-fix zombies who don't have the persistence to build anything big in their lives, yet alone read a 15-minute article or take an hour-long free course that will fix a problem in their life.

2. The ones who have the persistence and actually have the traits that will lead to them being successful.

3. People like Imgal and Vigilante who are already on track and not part of my target market.

My gut is telling me to stick with putting everything out there (not matter how long it takes) to solve the problems of people who are actually committed to taking the time and experience results in their life; instead of watering down the content to attract the wrong people.

Thoughts?

You could make a Weighted Average Decision Matrix to help you decide.

 

[Argue]

You could make a Weighted Average Decision Matrix to help you decide.

You win the internet today.

 

[rollerskates]

I have trouble getting through your posts, and I read probably 250 books a year. It's not the length, it's the content. More concise content would be attractive to people who are more get-it-doners. Dumbing down the content would attract people who have a lot of leisure time to be entrepreneurs, and don't need to move fast through content to apply it. You just need to ask yourself who you want as clients.

 

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[Joe Cassandra]

So I've been getting a lot of feedback lately that my writing is too long.

My blog posts, email newsletter, guest articles on various websites, and you see some of it here.

@Vigilante and @Imgal - commented on the length of it.

GOLD - I'm sorry, but this is going to be painful for a lot of you...

View attachment 15405

For one of my free offers, I have a 7-part video course (takes an hour to go through) that will teach them everything they need to know in order to fix a specific (large) problem in their life. I created the course knowing that the people who take the time to go through it will 100% have their problem fixed.

• From a business growth perspective - If I solve this problem in their lives - they will be grateful, and they will most likely buy my book and other products in the future if I've already made such an impact for free...
• From a value-add perspective - Why water down my content and give a half-assed approach when the goal is to actually fix a problem?

But then I was talking to a marketing consultant who said it's was wayyyyy too long (along with 50 other people who have said the same thing).

She said instead, I should have a quick 2-minute video or 3 page pdf as a "lead magnet", which people can easily digest. The average attention span is less than that of a goldfish nowadays.

If I dumb down my content, I will get more subscribers, and more people engaged....

The core of my brand is to help people do big things (which require a multi-year attention span). Think similar to the dedication and focus it requires to build a business, or move up in the world of acting/art/sports.

If I dumb down my content, I'll be attracting the type of person who wants the quick fix and doesn't have the persistence to accomplish what the brand helps people accomplish.

So if I make the shorter content, I'll attract the type of people who would rather get their next social media-quick fix; which is not the type of person who usually goes on to these types of things.

Is this really the type of person I want to be helping?

So I'm thinking lately that I shouldn't compromise the quality of what I put out, based on the wrong type of people...

If somebody is truly committed to fixing this problem in their life, they'll go through the hour-long course, or spend 15 minutes to read the long article. And when they do that, they'll actually get everything they need, instead of an easy 7-step bullet point quick fix...which doesn't actually solve the problem.

Which will mean less subscribers...

There are three types of people in this world:

1. The quick-fix zombies who don't have the persistence to build anything big in their lives, yet alone read a 15-minute article or take an hour-long free course that will fix a problem in their life.

2. The ones who have the persistence and actually have the traits that will lead to them being successful.

3. People like Imgal and Vigilante who are already on track and not part of my target market.

My gut is telling me to stick with putting everything out there (not matter how long it takes) to solve the problems of people who are actually committed to taking the time and experience results in their life; instead of watering down the content to attract the wrong people.

Thoughts?

You're thinking about your content as "All or nothing." Offering a 3 page pdf instead of a one-hour video isn't "dumbing" down...

It's giving someone a meal rather than the whole damn restaurant. "I only wanted the waffles...not the crepes, the french toast, the eggs..."

Let them come back for more later.

My first draft of any post/reply on this forum is always pretty long. Then, I edit it down, cutting out unneeded sentences.

You're a smart dude --- but your posts seem more of a ramble then one "golden thread" (as we say in copywriting land).

More words doesn't mean 'more intelligent.'
---------------
SIDENOTE: If you really want to help more people...why wouldn't you work on getting more subscribers?...

You're a copywriter. The chances of people taking a ton of action on a FREE one-hour video...tinyyyyy.

If that were the case, everyone on this free forum would have gold coins coming out of their ears.

Make the 3-page PDF, get more subscribers. Turn the one-hour video course into a $7-$49 product. After this, then measure how many lives you've helped.

 

[AndrewNC]

@AndrewNC it maybe important that you created this thread. It seems that many of us have just been skipping your work. I doubt that was your hope. So, now that you've embarrassed yourself you know the truth.

Not embarrassed, just confuse by all these big words I have to google the meaning of...

uncouth

CALCULATED and CLICK-BAITY

insulting two respected forum members

My apologies to those that it came out that way: Wasn't my intent. Just trying to use examples of people who are obviously on the other end of the spectrum from what I'm talking about, in my ironic way of going about things.

3. People like Imgal and Vigilante who are already on track

Since it's not what fits well with the forum, I'll stop posting it anymore.

Thanks all for the feedback to spend more time editing and cutting down on content.

 

[Andy Black]

Do you ever go back and eliminate paragraphs and sentences? I do that all the time, even in my facebook posts that are 1-2 sentences long.

Phew, I thought it was just me. I spend more time editing than writing.

You just need to ask yourself who you want as clients.

This

You're thinking about your content as "All or nothing." Offering a 3 page pdf instead of a one-hour video isn't "dumbing" down...

It's giving someone a meal rather than the whole damn restaurant. "I only wanted the waffles...not the crepes, the french toast, the eggs..."

Let them come back for more later.

My first draft of any post/reply on this forum is always pretty long. Then, I edit it down, cutting out unneeded sentences.

You're a smart dude --- but your posts seem more of a ramble then one "golden thread" (as we say in copywriting land).

More words doesn't mean 'more intelligent.'
---------------
SIDENOTE: If you really want to help more people...why wouldn't you work on getting more subscribers?...

You're a copywriter. The chances of people taking a ton of action on a FREE one-hour video...tinyyyyy.

If that were the case, everyone on this free forum would have gold coins coming out of their ears.

Make the 3-page PDF, get more subscribers. Turn the one-hour video course into a $7-$49 product. After this, then measure how many lives you've helped.

And this.

 

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[socaldude]

First let me say that I read all your posts.

I don't think they are too long rather I think it has to do with the subject matter. You are dealing with some of the most difficult ideas to communicate and articulate. How the mind works and its laws is the most mysterious and difficult thing ever.

I personally hate self-help pop psychology as I think its overcrowded with money-chasers. Very few ever change people's lives. Although some do make a noble attempt.

My advice is you have to balance art and science. You have to be an artist and a scientist.

I think the easiest way to go about this is to work in reverse. Why do people look up to teachers?
They probably speak to them in such a way that awakens dormant parts in them that allows them to express their individuality and independence. The hard part is how do you speak to them?

 

[garyjsmith]

Concise with concrete ideas. Read Amazon.com: Made to Stick: Why Some Ideas Survive and Others Die (8601421337328): Chip Heath, Dan Heath: Books

Also check out James Clear's writing style. He's very much to the point and a very effective writer.

 

[Christopher777]

@AndrewNC

I've read your book (I am not a Millionaire) man. Cover to cover. And it was great. Thank you. You're smart and you can be interesting.

There's a treasure trove of great feedback in this thread. Coincidentally, what i've been doing myself is editing my own book.

You know what I found? What they all said here was correct. I have been cutting down my sentences and eliminating what's unnecessary. It's a 300k word count monster. I guess that's one of the reasons why the task overwhelmed me. But cutting sentences out and editing for conciseness feels great. It felt like sharpening a knife or something. I'm beginning to enjoy editing.

Anyway, I have read your posts and I found them valuable. There's just too much in there that makes you want to skip stuff.

I also felt that even though you are providing value, it's still obvious that it's some sort of copy to create more business. Nothing wrong with that. But I totally agree with MJ regarding authenticity. It's like the missing piece.

Something is off, like the "why" behind your postings.

If you just decide to focus on being genuine with your message, like be all out about it and just jump head-first: Be human. Express emotion. You have become robotic with your marketing man. (Tongue in cheek). Don't be so deliberate and artificial. I've glimpsed your personality in your book and how you came across there is different from how you do in your long posts.

I guess it's more related to your highly developed work ethic more than anything.

And forums and books are different so, you gotta find your own style for them.

Nevertheless, I guess people will climb Mt Everest for you if you can compel them to, if you can give them a reason, a feeling or a burning desire to do it.

I loved your book btw. Cheers.

 

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[Sean Kaye]

Try sticking to saying what needs to be said and not a word more.

If you're telling a story and it's engaging, then people will forgive a lack of brevity because they are being entertained.

If you're using three words instead of one, then... Not so much.

 

[NoahK]

An excellent example of brevity and powerful writing was short story author and poet Raymond Carver.

 

[SYK]

Thread title needs to be changed to include names of all members who've said they don't read your full posts. Share the prejudice!

 

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[BradSpencer]

One other technique that's really helped me out a ton to cut down the word count (and force me to make my ideas more concise with simple language) is my 10%x2 rule.

Here's how I structure things when I write (in addition to my above post)

1. Start with an Outline + Content Structure
2. Fill in my subheadlines
3. Write out my content for each subheadline
4. (Let's assume I end up with 1000 words of content) Edit out 10% of the word count at first...
5. Read the content out loud and find areas where it's not landing very well verbally
6. Edit/consolidate the areas that don't sound right verbally.

Every stage talk, webinar, video, business meeting or other communication situation I've done that's bombed usually comes from not following this general format. It's super simple and repeatable no matter what type of writing you're doing.

I also find that my natural "flow" doesn't get lost when I do this but a lot of my rambling is minimized or eliminated when I cut 10% once, read aloud, then cut another 10%.

 

[BradSpencer]

One other tip that a writer gave me that's really helped me out especially with web-based writing

"Read your stuff on a mobile phone and make it easy for people to read."

I have never once had tough criticism when I followed this rule since making stuff easy to read on a mobile device virtually guarantees that people will enjoy reading it on a computer.

It seems simple but even today in my forum browsing I've seen a lot of stuff I know would kill my eyes if I had tried to read it on my iPad or phone. Brutal.

So, see if that helps you improve the way you want to and get better feedback on your work. It's really helped me out a lot to improve my skills.

 

[ZF Lee]

Somehow @MJ DeMarco is still the de-facto spinner of words Gettysburg style around here,eh?

And @MustImprove too...his spins on even straight things are hilarious

 

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[Raoul Duke]

therefore

On a serious note. I have enjoyed (in no particular order) posts from these people - @SinisterLex, @Andy Black, @lowtek, @RHL, @Vigilante, @AgainstAllOdds, @theag, @biophase, @snowbank, @GlobalWealth, @MidwestLandlord & @MJ DeMarco.

 

[Raoul Duke]

If you understood the meaning of dumbing down, you would never put that into a headline referencing someone who knows your history. You're no William Shakespeare.

For you to insinuate that your prose needs to be simplified to make it relateable to the masses (or me specifically) indicates the lack of depth you pay to your own reflection in the mirror. The first thing MJ told me to do when he reviewed the manuscript of how I built my business was eliminate 50% of the unnecessary words. You could apply that same discipline with a 90% filter. Then, with the remaining 10% make sure it emanated from a place of experience vs. hypothesis and you might gain a readership.

And for the record, I would read every word @Imgal posts here as she doesn't post verbal diarrhea just to try and present an image that was anything different than her reality. Happy to be in her company.

Go pick an intellectual battle with someone that might care to meet you at your level, like Danielle Bregoli. While your click bait headline will likely garner you several thread views, it comes at the cost to you of someone who at one point would have taken your phone call.

 

[Jon L]

There's something about writing that immediately gets to the point. It respects the reader's time and let's them know if the writer is worth listening to. I can usually tell within the first few sentences of a post:

1. Whether the writer has the kind of experience necessary to write authoritatively on the subject.
   
2. Whether I will learn something and/or be entertained by the post.

MJ mentioned authenticity. That's his way of saying what I'm saying with my first point. Usually, the only way to figure out what works in a given business situation is by trial and error. For me, that has meant a LOT of error, followed by some learning, followed by some expertise for that particular situation. Do that in enough kinds of situations, and you become 'experienced.' This kind of experience oozes from the pores of people that have been trained by it. Its immediately obvious in the way someone writes. What's interesting about this is that two different writers can talk about the same topic and say the same basic thing. The one with experience will be the one I listen to.

I haven't really read much of your writing, Andrew, because your writing doesn't pass those two tests of mine. Here's the thing: this thread is EXACTLY the kind of thing that turns a person into someone that oozes experience from their pores. The pain you've experienced here teaches you things you wouldn't otherwise learn. Keep going, and you can turn yourself into a writer with a very large following.

(This post took me 30 minutes to write, by the way.)

 

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[MidwestLandlord]

The amount of patience that @Vigilante and @Imgal displayed in this thread is unbelievable. I mean, they come here and volunteer their time and share their experiences for us to learn from, and then get called out in a thread title that implies they lack intelligence?

Especially with @Vigilante (no offense @Imgal ), I am nothing but grateful for the knowledge he shares here (even if I don't always agree with him)

Anyway,

This thread is a perfect example of why I skip most of your stuff @AndrewNC . I usually only read your stuff if a heavy hitter like @jon.a , @MJ DeMarco , or @Vigilante commented.

Is your writing too long? Sure.

But the real issue, in my opinion, is that your writing style isn't congruent with what you're writing about. An inflammatory, argumentative, arrogant, and provocative writing style doesn't really fit with NLP and self-help...ya know?

If I'm going to study NLP and use it to become my best self, why would I learn that from someone displaying the same attitudes and beliefs I'm trying to overcome?

Confidence in your product implies value, arrogance implies lack of value or over-compensation, so I automatically discount the value of your words based off that arrogance, even though the subject matter interests me.

I wouldn't expect you to be perfect for sure. But I would expect awareness of your faults, and as mentioned above by MJ, being authentic with those faults. A bit of legit vulnerability goes a long way...

Harsh stuff in this thread, hope it helps you. You've got tremendous knowledge in what I think is valuable information for people, you just need to learn to sell it (and yourself).

(this comment took me 41 minutes to write and was edited what felt like 387 times before posting)

 

[Vigilante]

@Imgal got included merely for guilt by association. Come to find out, she simply speaks what many others in the shadows think also.

As is usually the case around here, a thread that should have been landfill material ends up with gold follow-up posts that are relevant well beyond the OP.

Thanks all.

 

[Imgal]

The amount of patience that @Vigilante and @Imgal displayed in this thread is unbelievable. I mean, they come here and volunteer their time and share their experiences for us to learn from, and then get called out in a thread title that implies they lack intelligence?

Especially with @Vigilante (no offense @Imgal ), I am nothing but grateful for the knowledge he shares here (even if I don't always agree with him)

Anyway,

This thread is a perfect example of why I skip most of your stuff @AndrewNC . I usually only read your stuff if a heavy hitter like @jon.a , @MJ DeMarco , or @Vigilante commented.

Ha! No offense taken. @Vigilante is much wiser and more consistent than me... though the good thing is that it's made me really competitive and want to truly be named alongside such names as his.

In this defense, I actually don't think @AndrewNC meant offense by his title. We often have Skype chats and while we can rub each other up the wrong way when we call each other out of things, neither of us take that as an opportunity to throw our toys out of the pram and run away. We shut up and listen and then take on the advice... well that or get called out again the next time.

Andrew has called me out on many of my excuses (as has Vigilante) and I'd no doubt still be wallowing and achieving nothing without either of them not being harsh. I've also equally been more than a little harsh when giving marketing advice and to his credit he took it. I've no doubt he'll do the same with this.

 

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[Vigilante]

Ha! No offense taken. @Vigilante is much older than me...

 

[G-Man]

@AndrewNC I like your writing. It's a little long, but there's quite a few posts that I've saved for later reading with my Sat AM coffee.

That said: This thread is just silly. The only reason I clicked on it is because the title insults Vig, hyperbole, click bait or whatever. I'm not here to internet white knight in his defense, and I don't think he needs it or cares, but you're going to get a lot of people that will arrive here for that same reason, and nothing good can come from it.

This is just silliness.

 

[Christopher777]

This is a classic example of a common error we all commit regarding the written word. It's just 7% of communication, (@AndrewNC knows this), and I really think that he wasn't really being offensive. It's subtle, but with all things online, you gotta be razor-sharp or else be so easily misconstrued.

 

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[Vigilante]

This is a classic example of a common error we all commit regarding the written word. It's just 7% of communication, (@AndrewNC knows this), and I really think that he wasn't really being offensive. It's subtle, but with all things online, you gotta be razor-sharp or else be so easily misconstrued.

When given opportunity for clarification, he took none.

 

[jon.a]

This is a classic example of a common error we all commit regarding the written word. It's just 7% of communication, (@AndrewNC knows this), and I really think that he wasn't really being offensive. It's subtle, but with all things online, you gotta be razor-sharp or else be so easily misconstrued.

This was not subtle, it was so blatant that I was hoping to read a joke.