Let's Talk About Fame

[MJ DeMarco]

I can only imagine what someone like @MJ DeMarco has dealt with and then you got people with the super large numbers (millions of followers).

Not sure what this refers to as I have ZERO fame or celebrity. I'm very anonymous. The only time I feel a bit of "fame" is at the Summits. I also don't have a huge social media presense, but for the small following I do have, I can see it being a huge burden. I get a ton of postiive emails, thank yous, and raves -- and it often makes me wonder, what would happen if I had 1M followers, and not 15K?

Anyhow just thought I'd chime in...

 

[SEBASTlAN]

MJ made a wise decision to use a pen name

That's a pen name?

 

[MTF]

Just finished reading this candid post by Tim Ferriss: 11 Reasons Not To Become Famous (or “A Few Lessons Learned Since 2007”)

I'm curious to hear what you think about it.

Clearly, if you achieve financial success in business, particularly online, you'll gain some fame. It can help grow your business, but it can also lead to some of the problems mentioned in Tim's post.

Some businesses make it easier to stay anonymous and some businesses require you to be the face of the company. I have no doubts that being an actual celebrity is hell on earth, but what about becoming famous in your niche for your expertise (e.g. Susan Cain for introversion or Yuval Noah Harari for his books), owning a well-known business (e.g. Elon Musk or Richard Branson) and/or personal story (e.g. David Goggins)? Is it worth it or is it better to seek ways to make money that won't result in you becoming famous?

Do you want to get famous or do you actively avoid it? How do you balance between privacy and having a personal brand/making a big impact?

 

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[Fox]

I have dealt with this on a small level from the Youtube channel...

- People going way out of their way to track down and contact (harass) clients
- People digging into everything about me
- Emails that are way too much (3-4 pages of their life story with them wanting me to give them all the answers and place massive emotional pressure on me)

In the end, I removed my agency site and made myself a lot less contactable.

I can only imagine what someone like @MJ DeMarco has dealt with and then you got people with the super large numbers (millions of followers). I remember Andy Frisella talking about how he always carries a gun with him now and not to approach him if you don't already know who he is.

I think a large part of the problem is a combination of:
- celebrity worship culture
- "my one chance" mindset
- magic bullet mindset

People see/discover famous person > think this is their only and one chance to turn things around > think this person has the one magic thing they need to instantly succeed.

So it isn't just that they found the person > they see it as they NEED this person right now (for whatever reason). They don't even see the real person - they see their only chance at success and they lose a sense of reality.

I got that other thread right now about social media (and getting rid out if) and this connects to it well. There is just way too much information these days that these crazy people can get a hold of. It makes a lot of sense to control and reduce what you are putting out there (without even thinking a lot of the time).

 

[Roli]

Just finished reading this candid post by Tim Ferriss: 11 Reasons Not To Become Famous (or “A Few Lessons Learned Since 2007”)

I'm curious to hear what you think about it.

Clearly, if you achieve financial success in business, particularly online, you'll gain some fame. It can help grow your business, but it can also lead to some of the problems mentioned in Tim's post.

Some businesses make it easier to stay anonymous and some businesses require you to be the face of the company. I have no doubts that being an actual celebrity is hell on earth, but what about becoming famous in your niche for your expertise (e.g. Susan Cain for introversion or Yuval Noah Harari for his books), owning a well-known business (e.g. Elon Musk or Richard Branson) and/or personal story (e.g. David Goggins)? Is it worth it or is it better to seek ways to make money that won't result in you becoming famous?

Do you want to get famous or do you actively avoid it? How do you balance between privacy and having a personal brand/making a big impact?

It's funny isn't it? Because I know who Tim Ferris is, I've bought 4 Hour Work Week, as have lots of people on this forum. However, until I clicked on your link, I had no idea what he looked like. Could have sat next to him in a bar, chatted to him all night, and unless he told me his name, I wouldn't have known.

That has always been the sort of fame that I've thought would be acceptable, famous enough that people know who you are, but only hardcore geeks bother to find out and memorise what you look like.

Back in the 90s when I was partying hard, it always amazed me that people knew what famous DJs looked like. I neither knew, nor cared.

In conclusion, I like the concept of author fame, because no matter how big you get, most people won't recognise you.

I've only just realised what Stephen King looks like simply because his picture is printed on the back of On Writing, I was struck by how much he looks like ex British Prime Minister, John Major!

 

[MTF]

I mean, within my own field or skillset I´d wish to be famous within my target group in order to keep sales up, but no, never nationwide for whatever reason.

That largely depends on your industry. If you're an expert in, say, SaaS for janitorial companies, nobody but CEOs of janitorial companies will care. But if you're a great athlete (even if you keep your private life private), everyone will recognize you.

It's funny isn't it? Because I know who Tim Ferris is, I've bought 4 Hour Work Week, as have lots of people on this forum. However, until I clicked on your link, I had no idea what he looked like. Could have sat next to him in a bar, chatted to him all night, and unless he told me his name, I wouldn't have known.

It's interesting because I'd recognize both Tim Ferriss and Stephen King. However, I wouldn't recognize even the most famous actors because I watch very few movies and in general don't care about Hollywood.

That and the paranoia of people knowing I'm wealthy, stealth wealth all the way!

The big question is how wealthy you can actually get in stealth mode. It can be done, but it's probably much harder than if you're more public.

 

[sparechange]

The big question is how wealthy you can actually get in stealth mode. It can be done, but it's probably much harder than if you're more public.

I wouldn't think MJ is known to much, most likely a ''nobody'' in his area, that is something I would aspire to, just be a normal guy free to go out and enjoy the world without hassle.

 

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[MTF]

I wouldn't think MJ is known to much, most likely a ''nobody'' in his area, that is something I would aspire to, just be a normal guy free to go out and enjoy the world without hassle.

MJ made a wise decision to use a pen name and let his work speak for himself instead of bragging about his status on social media. One drawback of this approach is that it might be harder to connect with other successful people (but not everyone cares about networking with influential people and it might not be that important anyway if all you want is to enjoy the world without hassle).

Interesting thought from Wikipedia on the topic of fame in general:

Outside of the sports and entertainment sphere, the top inventors, professionals such as doctors, lawyers, and scientists, etc. are unlikely to become celebrities even if they are enormously successful in their field due to society's disinterest in science, invention, medicine, and courtroom law which is not fictional. American microbiologist Maurice Hilleman is credited with saving more lives than any other medical scientist of the 20th century.[15] After Hilleman's death Ralph Nader wrote, "Yet almost no one knew about him, saw him on television, or read about him in newspapers or magazines. His anonymity, in comparison with Madonna, Michael Jackson, Jose Canseco, or an assortment of grade B actors, tells something about our society's and media's concepts of celebrity; much less of the heroic."

 

[Andy Black]

1) I don’t want to build a business where I’m the frontman and an essential part of the business.

2) Building an audience or fame isn’t my goal. Adding value and getting paid is.

...

My goal with YouTube is to put my video courses in front of people it can help, and sell it to those who see the value in them. I’d rather start as close to the end as possible and run ads to a sales page and see if I can make sales directly.

Growing the number of subscribers on YouTube isn’t a goal for me. Neither is growing the number of subscribers on an email list. Making sales is.

If making sales of, say, an Excel course is my goal, then do I need a personal brand in that space?

I’d like to have a repeatable process to make sales *without* building a personal brand, authority, or audience.

I worked for a company making €30k profit a day that didn’t have the names of the founders anywhere on the websites.

I worked for a startup where we acquired 15k email signups a day- from a simple landing page that didn’t have anyone’s face on it.

I ran a test last month and acquired 400 emails for €100, with barely any copy on the landing page. They’re real people. Some even asked what money I was earning or if I could lend them money!

I lump fame, personal brands, and authority in with other things we think we “need” to grow our business.

IMO, we don’t need any of the above, we just need sales.

 

[Fox]

In the last year I have been recognized 4-5 times in public.

I stick out in Poland as a redhead and then if you watch anything about web design on Youtube I guess I pop up pretty fast.

The first time I was carrying an expensive camera and for sure thought this person was going to snatch it. I was super close to telling them to F off when they mentioned Youtube and the school and it clicked.

I ended up inviting them out for lunch and they were really cool.

After that I have tried to be more relaxed when someone randomly starts walking right at me.
But it takes effort cause you don't want to just be accepting every random person in the world either.

Obviously I love meeting people who follow me, but until they actually tell me that I have no idea who they are.

Id say being properly famous is very difficult. Like to be recognized like that everywhere must be insanely demanding.
Also people just know me as just some small Youtube channel. Being a movie start or celebrity is going to have people reacting 100 times more emotionally.

 

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[Andy Black]

I’ve thought about this.

We all have personal brands one way or another. I think a (good!) personal brand is useful to jumpstart a new project.

After that I wouldn’t want the strategy to grow the business have to be that I grew my personal brand. I’d want the business to be a productocracy and grow because of R+R (Repeat Business plus Referrals).

I had a YouTube coach but couldn’t follow through on his blueprint. It’s because his blueprint requires that I do a talking head part of each video to introduce it and wrap up.

I don’t have intros or wrap ups to videos in my course.

Everyone’s advice for YouTube seems to be that you should get on camera. It dawned on me that I don’t have to get on camera at all, and I’ve created a couple of new channels where I won’t put my face to them or mention my name.

I don’t want to be famous, but that’s not really why I don’t want to build a personal brand. I want my offerings to stand on their own two feet.

The big question is how wealthy you can actually get in stealth mode. It can be done, but it's probably much harder than if you're more public.

My goto is booking.com. Who owns and runs that? Hotel owners don’t know or care. Neither do consumers.

 

[Timmy C]

Locally or niche famous wouldn't be to bad.

Worldwide cameras in your face can't go anywhere famous? Hell no.

 

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[MattR82]

Those celeb video worship videos make me lose faith in humanity.

 

[Kid]

I see privacy as an asset you can spend only once.

 

[sparechange]

I wouldn't want to be famous as being approached by random strangers would get old after a while....

That and the paranoia of people knowing I'm wealthy, stealth wealth all the way!

Oddly enough @Roli 's post rings true, myself being a Canadian I wouldn't be able to recognize a single hockey or football player from my own city. (Any athlete or celeb for that matter) Maybe it wouldn't be so bad...?

 

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[Roli]

It's interesting because I'd recognize both Tim Ferriss and Stephen King. However, I wouldn't recognize even the most famous actors because I watch very few movies and in general don't care about Hollywood.

To be fair I'm not the best example. I once spent about half an hour talking to a woman at a party. The woman in question went off to the shop to buy more booze, and my friend asked me if I was having a nice time. I said I was, and then told him that the woman I had been speaking to seemed familiar.

He laughed and told me it was Kate Moss. This was in the 90s at the height of her fame. I have a few stories like this, so I think I have the rare disease cant recognise celebrityitis. Whereby my celebrity recognition gland has become inflamed.

 

[Andy Black]

Locally or niche famous wouldn't be to bad.

Worldwide cameras in your face can't go anywhere famous? Hell no.

A few years ago some of the local youngsters were following me on Snapchat. They started learning what I did online. I didn’t feel comfortable wandering round town having youngsters point me out to other youngsters saying “he’s got a YouTube channel and works from home”.

 

[MTF]

A couple of thoughts from various people:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1187543926678228993

View: https://twitter.com/ladygaga/status/1187543926678228993?lang=en

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1041513555961438208

View: https://twitter.com/naval/status/1041513555961438208


"I had long ago learned that any amount of fame was a burden." - Michael Masterson aka Mark Ford (Dos and Donts with Pen Names)

 

[mikey3times]

I have a couple of tangential experiences with this and I have to say that I don’t want to be famous. EVER.

I have a distant relative who is very well known. We were having dinner one night and he was approached 3 times for autographs. I couldn’t imagine why anyone thought it appropriate to ask for an autograph in a restaurant while he was having dinner with friends and family. I asked why he didn’t politely decline. He said he can’t because that would reflect negatively on him and the people he worked for (and this was long before social media.) He was “at work” anytime he left the house. To this day, I ignore celebrities when I see them or when someone points them out to me.

My dad worked for a guy who named his company after himself (including first name and last name.) The guy said it was the worst mistake he made because people would ask for him by name if they didn’t like anything an employee did. It was a real estate company so imagine all the NIMBYers going after him personally.

No thanks.

 

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[Kak]

I bet most business powerhouse people can walk around without much problem.

There are a few with a high fame factor... Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, Donald Trump.

However could you recognize a guy like Warren Buffett if you saw him in a grocery store or totally out of context? Jamie Dimon? Charles Koch? Tim Cook? Bill Gates? I don’t think I would.

I worked gun counter during college in Waco. I had a regular ammo customer that I always liked. Chatted all the time. Was a actually a fan of his music... Had no idea he was actually Ted Nugent until one day he bought something that required paperwork... But then it all made sense...

Ted Nugent is a pretty hard not to figure out. Maybe I just don't care enough about famous people.

 

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[heavy_industry]

Id say being properly famous is very difficult. Like to be recognized like that everywhere must be insanely demanding.

Jordan Peterson said that he can no longer take a 10 minute walk without having at least 3 random people talking to him. Usually young people that are thankful for his work and teachings.

Not only in Canada, but virtually every city of every country he's been on tour.

I imagine you have to have a certain personality type to be able to deal with this. Otherwise it's completely overwhelming.

 

[sparechange]

Funny story, I actually met the Mayor of Vancouver (unbeknownst to me) Until someone brought it up, lol

 

[MTF]

After that I wouldn’t want the strategy to grow the business have to be that I grew my personal. I’d want the business to be a producocracy and grow because of R+R (Repeat Business plus Referrals).

Won't this require trust which, to a large extent, relies on whether people trust you? Or do you think it's trust for the company in general, not a specific human being? Recently there's been a lot of articles about people connecting with people, not corporations.

My goto is booking.com. Who owns and runs that? Hotel owners don’t know or care. Neither do consumers.

A quick Google search shows that it's Jay S. Walker - Wikipedia. Within a few minutes you can learn who his wife is, that he has two children, and where he lives (a small town in Connecticut). You'll also learn how wealthy he is (he's a billionaire). Perhaps media doesn't talk much about him, but it's pretty scary how easily a determined person could find him.

 

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[Andy Black]

Won't this require trust which, to a large extent, relies on whether people trust you? Or do you think it's trust for the company in general, not a specific human being? Recently there's been a lot of articles about people connecting with people, not corporations.



A quick Google search shows that it's Jay S. Walker - Wikipedia. Within a few minutes you can learn who his wife is, that he has two children, and where he lives (a small town in Connecticut). You'll also learn how wealthy he is (he's a billionaire). Perhaps media doesn't talk much about him, but it's pretty scary how easily a determined person could find him.

I don’t think people actually have to know, like, and trust us to buy from us. I think they just have to believe they will get more value in return for the money they’re being asked to spend.

What I meant by booking.com is that he’s not got a personal blog explaining how good booking.com is, and he’s not in the videos on TV (if they even have videos on TV). He’d use actors to grow his business, not himself. He’s deliberately not made booking.com about himself.

 

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[wouldntitbenice]

I feel that the importance of personal brand comes down to what you're selling: a service or a product. A service typically relies on expertise and authority, and while word of mouth and testimonials help a lot, people are buying into the person(s) at the root of that expertise and authority.

Personal brand feels like a buzz concept in the online world. An investment in a lease in a reasonable, and not sketchy, location projects legitimacy. Using your personal reputation through your face and sharing parts of your life is the online equivalent, so there is a natural gravitational pull. But...

There's a strong push by people to create a personal brand, mostly by those selling services or pushing content, because it's a relatively easy sell. Every person has a self, and that self is well known to them as well as free to use. Most people feel special, unique, valuable, and likeable. The only thing they have to do is show the world.

I don't know...maybe I'm struggling with confirmation bias, because I'm searching for an online business that enables me to have a comfortable living without any need for a personal brand or attention.

 

[MattR82]

Aha! I’m not trying to grow a YouTube channel.

Oops, my mistake I think I'm getting threads confused!

I can definitely see the advantage in getting your face out there. It's not something I'm comfortable with though.

There's a book I've just started reading about it called key person of influence. They are trying to sell their coaching program through the book I assume, but it's still interesting. Does look like it makes things a hell of a lot easier.

 

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[MTF]

I remember Andy Frisella talking about how he always carries a gun with him now and not to approach him if you don't already know who he is.

Wow that sucks but it doesn't surprise me. Tim also carries a gun. I think that being a celebrity in the US is worse than elsewhere because there are more people with mental illnesses and easier access to guns. A celebrity in, say, Finland, probably doesn't deal with as many crazies as someone living in the US (smaller population aside).

I think a large part of the problem is a combination of:
- celebrity worship culture
- "my one chance" mindset
- magic bullet mindset

People see/discover famous person > think this is their only and one chance to turn things around > think this person has the one magic thing they need to instantly succeed.

Reminds me of this video and how ridiculously people acted thinking it was Ed Sheeran:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SgCl3_cZcY

I’d like to crack the code to making sales *without* building a personal brand, authority, or audience.

That could be challenging in today's world of shrinking privacy...

Locally or niche famous wouldn't be to bad.

I guess that being known locally for something valuable like running a respected non-profit foundation could be nice. Few drawbacks, a lot of upside.

Which brings me to the topic of networking: it seems that those who are famous have it easy to connect with other successful people. Tim admits in his post that if it weren't for fame, he wouldn't be friends with Kevin Rose, Matt Mullenweg, let alone be able to interview world's top performers, athletes, businessmen, investors, etc.

It seems to me that when you're a nobody it's very hard to connect with some interesting people (not that it's fame that defines them, but their experiences, skills, etc.). Or maybe I'm wrong and it's still possible but you just need to be an excellent in stealth networking (and be this person who knows everyone but who isn't known publicly).

Another topic worth of discussing is the question of purpose and legacy. It seems to me that this is much easier if you're famous just because you can really make a difference by supporting various causes or organizations. Not that you don't have purpose if you're unknown, it's just that if you want to pursue really big projects that can change the world fame is probably something you need to have influence and trust.

 

[MattR82]

Wow that sucks but it doesn't surprise me. Tim also carries a gun. I think that being a celebrity in the US is worse than elsewhere because there are more people with mental illnesses and easier access to guns. A celebrity in, say, Finland, probably doesn't deal with as many crazies as someone living in the US (smaller population aside).



Reminds me of this video and how ridiculously people acted thinking it was Ed Sheeran:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SgCl3_cZcY




That could be challenging in today's world of shrinking privacy...



I guess that being known locally for something valuable like running a respected non-profit foundation could be nice. Few drawbacks, a lot of upside.

Which brings me to the topic of networking: it seems that those who are famous have it easy to connect with other successful people. Tim admits in his post that if it weren't for fame, he wouldn't be friends with Kevin Rose, Matt Mullenweg, let alone be able to interview world's top performers, athletes, businessmen, investors, etc.

It seems to me that when you're a nobody it's very hard to connect with some interesting people (not that it's fame that defines them, but their experiences, skills, etc.). Or maybe I'm wrong and it's still possible but you just need to be an excellent in stealth networking (and be this person who knows everyone but who isn't known publicly).

Another topic worth of discussing is the question of purpose and legacy. It seems to me that this is much easier if you're famous just because you can really make a difference by supporting various causes or organizations. Not that you don't have purpose if you're unknown, it's just that if you want to pursue really big projects that can change the world fame is probably something you need to have influence and trust.

This is more what I was alluding to. The example I saw was a chiropractor that built their personal brand in 18 months from nothing to being known as an industry leader and expert. Through things like speaking at conferences, self publishing books and promoting their face with marketing efforts.

They were able to charge more and within that timeframe take themself out out of the day to day of the operations.

 

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[MTF]

I bet most business powerhouse people can walk around without much problem.

There are a few with a high fame factor... Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, Donald Trump.

You'd say that Tim Ferriss would have no problems then. But maybe it's because he's also an author of semi-controversial books and not just a businessman/investor.

However could you recognize a guy like Warren Buffett if you saw him in a grocery store or totally out of context? Jamie Dimon? Charles Koch? Tim Cook? Bill Gates? I don’t think I would.

I'd recognize Warren Buffett and Bill Gates as long as it would make at least a little bit of sense they could be there (so I wouldn't expect them in my hometown).

Ted Nugent is a pretty hard not to figure out. Maybe I just don't care enough about famous people.

I have no idea who he is and had to google his name. Still have no idea who he is (lol sorry, maybe that's something everyone in the US knows).

If you’re extroverted you’ll love fame; if you’re introverted, you’ll hate it.

Introverts would definitely struggle with it more, but I'd say that sociopaths and psychopaths probably enjoy fame most.

Here is an example of how much I would love fame. After I had my daughter I found it uncomfortable to go out for something as simple as groceries, as I found the attention I got to be be unpleasant.

And that's just a temporary problem. Imagine the hopelessness of knowing that it will never end (fame can fade, but many people will still recognize once well-known celebrities after years or decades).

I'm most certainly not famous (and wouldn't want to be), but I'm well known in my small niche...so not sure if my response is worthwhile or not... But...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's interesting because you operate in a niche that might possibly attract a lot of shady people (or people with hidden intentions) given how much money there is in real estate.

The morons on the street will be ten times more likely to know lady gaga than warren buffett.

True, though business celebrities are known to be rich for sure so they might be a better target than artists who can be, and often are, broke.

 

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[Roli]

I suddenly thought of this thread this morning, and I reminded myself of Damon Albarn of Blur fame.

When things were getting too much for him, yet he still wanted to carry on making music, he created the Gorrilaz, whom were made up of Manga cartoon characters.

You can't stalk a cartoon character!

Now Damon lives in relative anonymity, he lives not too far from me, I see him now and again, however I always have to have him pointed out to me. (See previously mentioned can't recognise-celebrityitis)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V_xRb0x9aw

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXR-bCF5dbM