GET TO COLLEGE! (Because I failed at business.)

[PizzaOnTheRoof]

I think going to college with no idea of what you want is a recipe for disappointment and mountains of debt.

As for taking a slowlane approach and retiring by 35-40, yes it’s possible. It’s called FIRE (Fincancialy Independent or Retire Early).

The FIRE crowd are optimizing for saving money, with the hope of retiring early-er...

The issue is that those middle-laners planning to retire at 40 are living frugal lives with 2 weeks of vacation a year and are at the mercy of other people’s decisions for the next 20 years.

If you can lose your income source because someone got hot coffee spilled on them that morning, does that sound like a good option?

The Fastlane flips the entire narrative on its head and asks, what if I optimize for freedom and control instead?

And as we’ve seen many times before here is that the recipe works.

Just look at @Andy Black, he doesn’t own a multi-million dollar business yet he has freedom and happiness and loves what he does.

But most importantly, he has control. He is the driver of his life.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

I love MJ's book, but one issue I have with it is his hatred of college education and getting a job.

Nice strawman bro, I don't have a hatred for a college education or a job. But if it makes you feel better "thinking" I think I hate college and jobs, well, OK.

 

[SteveO]

You completely missed the point of the second part of his response...



What @emphasize.v1 is saying is that YES,
College Graduates are more likely to succeed than Non-Graduates in Aggregate.

Keyword being IN AGGREGATE.

Those stats never account for the extremes of the model:
1: College Dropouts who become successful, and
2: College Graduates who stay broke.

A better sample to evaluate would be the education levels of entrepreneurs:

View attachment 22951

...and no wonder. The cognitive inclinations of a typical entrepreneur that help him succeed in commerce (High in Openness, Low in Conscientiousness -- Generally very high creativity) is in direct opposition and in some cases detrimental to what is required for academic success...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGax4DsAadk


So is it any surprise that the possibility of an intelligent, self driven person attending college would say "Buck the rules!" and thrive on their own? Something to chew on.

Hey... I fit into the 5 percent that did not complete high school. The person that showed me the way to quitting my job only finished 8th grade.

Personally, I want people to go to college and find a decent job. Make more money and buy shit from me...

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

I have to be realistic. I am not an entrepreneur, and that's OK.

Oh OK, so you're not here to learn anything but here to TROLL us with your worldview.

This is an entrepreneur forum.

So when this thread dies, you'll leave because you're not here to learn, and you're not here for any particular self-growth or for any contributing factor.

You think you're here to enlighten us.

Sorry, but that's not why I built this place.

College grads earn more on average than people without a degree.

Bahahahah, who told you that? The Federal Reserve? The College Board?

How about "Milk, it does a body good." You believe that too?

How about the CNN report that Trump is an evil orange man hell-bent on world-destruction? Believe that?

Even better, how about the study that SUGAR is good for you? You know, the one conducted and released by the Sugar Refiner trade group?

The "college grad earns more" studies are all flawed studies because it is statistically impossible to isolate book smart youths and keep them away from college and funnel them into other pursuits.

Garbage in, Garbage out, complete with an army of drones ready and willing to regurgitate the nonsense.

Additionally, there is systemic discrimination that keeps non-degreed individuals out of jobs/ventures that sanctimoniously have a degree as a requirement.

These factors make it virtually impossible to determine if "college" is actually the definitive factor for success. There's too many precursors and procursors.

Your reasoning is equivalent to saying, "Studies show that if you're 7 feet tall, your chances of getting a basketball scholarship improve by 64%."

Well yea, duh.

No show me a huge study with thousands of well-adjusted, book-smart students admitted to Harvard and then suddenly, purposely KEPT AWAY. Then compare them to another group who does actually go -- that's a study I'd like to see. But you'll NEVER see it -- because it might actually prove that college is a six-figure scam.

There are over 50,000+ other discussions on this forum. I hope you enjoy them.

If not, good luck at college and with the pending job search. Like college, entrepreneurship is always an option, and a good one if the job economy fails.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

'College was a five-year prenatal employee brainwashing with graduation as the overrated climax'
'

Sorry, but my statement of experience doesn't translate into "I hate college and jobs".

Quit making shit up so you can sound intellectually enlightened -- it weakens your argument to those who know better, an argument I actually agree with dependent on the circumstances and the individual.

But life is like that isn't it? Nothing is absolute, ONE SIZE FITS ALL, which is why "Get to College!" is factually derelict, just like "Avoid College!" is equally as well.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I've allowed your post via your second account.

I was very ignorant. I naively thought that business was my only option, and it isn't.

Exactly, YOU DID THAT. Not me.

NEVER ONCE did I ever say in either of my books, "Skip college"
NEVER ONCE did I ever say in either of my books, "You can't get rich going to college"
NEVER ONCE did I ever say in either of my books, "College is an utter waste."
NEVER ONCE did I ever say in either of my books, "College is worthless"

There's are all ASSUMPTIONS you drew simply because I'm critical of the College Industrial-Debt-and-Slave Complex.

You're a victim of your own thoughts, erroneous conclusions drawn from things I never said.

Additionally, you assume that everyone else on this forum has drawn the same conclusion as you with respect to college/business. They haven't.

MJ your book has a lot of good info, but I disagree with your viewpoint of college.

Actually we agree on more than you think.

This will be my last thread on the fastlane forum.

Of course it is.

You were here out of genuine caring. You were here warn us poor lost souls that $120,000 for a gender studies degree might actually have better probabilities to create wealth than a value-adding business. (See I can use strawman arguments too!)

Goodbye and good luck.

 

[GuestUser4aMPs1]

@Fantasticlife here's a question for you.

Do you want to be RIGHT, or do you want to be RICH?

Your arguing doesn't change the fact that people succeed without a degree.

Your arguing doesn't change the fact that people fail WITH one.

Your arguing does NOTHING to change or improve YOUR situation,
other than waste YOUR time and everyone who's responded to your argument...

And it's very clear that you're not open to being convinced.

Welcome to the forum.
Quality first post

 

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[MTEE1985]

Here is my perspective.

I think that if you're unsure of what you want to to do with your life, you should go to college until you figure it out.

I love MJ's book, but one issue I have with it is his hatred of college education and getting a job.

The millionaire fastlane claims that there are 3 financial paths: the sidewalk, the slowlane, and the fastlane. The destination is financial freedom.

If one could paint a metaphor , financial freedom is a destination that is 100 miles away. The sidewalk is like standing still. The slowlane is like walking. The fastlane is like building a bicycle or a car.

But there is one path that isn't included here. Running.

The days where people would just get a job for $15 and work that job until age 65 are gone. There are MANY scripted paths one could take to retire by age 35-40.
I know many people in their early /mid 20's making upwards of 250K. One could easily retire a millionaire by their early 30's with a pair of golden handcuffs.

Some people might think"Why?" Why would someone want to spend their youngest years working for someone else? Why wouldn't they just start a business and make a lot of money way faster?

Think about the tortoise and the hare. The tortoise goes slow and steady. The hare get's cocky, and falls behind in the race.

If you're young and don't know what to do, going to college until you figure it out can be a great plan.

Also, if your goal is to be an entrepreneur, going to college can give you access to a ton of resources that you may not have access to if you don't go.

Entrepreneurship is NOT the only path to wealth. It is an alternative path, and probably the hardest.

This topic has been discussed (borderline ad naseum) here many times. 99% of the forum members are pro college, MJ included. The “hatred” is the illusion that “any degree is better than no degree” which leads to people majoring in gender studies while accumulating $160,000 in loan debt with their best job prospect post graduation being Starbucks.

MJ had several jobs in the entrepreneurial process which he details in both books.

As far as people earning 6 figures in their early 20’s...not uncommon but far from the majority.

It’s beginning to look a lot like landfill in here.

 

[JG17]

I actually think this is the worst thing one can do. Here's my story which hopefully explains why.

I live and work in the UK. I don't know what's it's like in the US, but I specifically didn't go to college (university) for the sake of it or just in case. These were the only justifications I could think of for going, and I actually decided these were the worst reasons for going I could possibly have. If I had gone, the chances are I wouldn't have taken it seriously. I would have slacked off, lazed around all day missing lectures to play video games until 3am, but achieved a decent standard grade through last minute cramming and inherent intelligence. When I finished I'd have been in massive debt and thrown into the huge pool of graduates going for the same small pool of jobs, and financially behind those who went straight into work.

And that's what I done. I got a job straight after A Levels (which for my American friends is the year prior to going to college), and it took just one year of working when I was 20 years old for me to decide this is F*cking awful, I hate it and have to get out but thank god I didn't pay £50k to find out the expensive way.

If you don't know what to do I suggest going straight into work and figuring it out, rather than going to college and figuring it out (assuming you don't live in a society where not going to college rules you out for life). That way at least you're improving your financial position rather than saddling yourself with huge debt only to decide to go down a path which never required a degree in the first place.

 

[LiveEntrepreneur]

This is of th stupidest things that I've heard and it pisses me off just reading it. so put yourself in massive debt only to find out later its not what you wanted. And end up with a job you hate. I did this i went to uni without a clear goal and it was a complete waste of F*cking time. Had nothing to do with my goals and i just listened to others and what a mistake that was. Only go to university if you know exactly what you want to do and if/or your goals require it.

 

[emphasize.v1]

Grads earn more than non-grads because sidewalkers and lazy people fall into that category.

Here is a quick tip:
If you are presented with statistical data always try to see which variables are included/excluded. People lie with statistics, a lot. Relying on statistics before examining the inputs and Z-factors is not a good way to go.

Sent from my Mi A2 using Tapatalk

 

[GuestUser4aMPs1]

So you agree that college grads are less likely to be lazy sidewalkers ?

You completely missed the point of the second part of his response...

If you are presented with statistical data always try to see which variables are included/excluded. People lie with statistics, a lot. Relying on statistics before examining the inputs and Z-factors is not a good way to go.

What @emphasize.v1 is saying is that YES,
College Graduates are more likely to succeed than Non-Graduates in Aggregate.

Keyword being IN AGGREGATE.

Those stats never account for the extremes of the model:
1: College Dropouts who become successful, and
2: College Graduates who stay broke.

A better sample to evaluate would be the education levels of entrepreneurs:



...and no wonder. The cognitive inclinations of a typical entrepreneur that help him succeed in commerce (High in Openness, Low in Conscientiousness -- Generally very high creativity) is in direct opposition and in some cases detrimental to what is required for academic success...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGax4DsAadk


So is it any surprise that the possibility of an intelligent, self driven person attending college would say "Buck the rules!" and thrive on their own? Something to chew on.

 

[ChrisV]

Like yeah, grads earn more - but why? Is it because they are grads or because they work harder than people who decide to chill rather than going to college? Are they more motivated? More connected to people etc. etc.

The question is: Does going to a good college make you successful, or does being successful (in your teen years) make you more likely to get into a top college. This has actually been well studied and the data is actually pretty clear. The answer is the latter; being successful makes you go to a top college. In other words the reason that Harvard grads are so successful is only because Harvard knows how to pick kids who are likely to be successes, not because the quality of the education is so great. I’ve taken some of Harvard’s Data Science classes (and others) and they honestly sucked. I got way better results with classes website run by this russian dude on Udemy and indian dudes that run an analytics site (not kidding.) Their neuroscience classes were embarrassing. Some of their classes were good, but my experience with them has been meh. Anyway, the entire value of an Ivy League education is how selective they are. One Data Science analysis that comes to mind was from Everybody Lies: Big Data, New Data, and What the Internet Can Tell Us About Who We Really Are where they took kids who went to Harvard vs kids who were accepted and never went (for whatever reason.) Maybe they decided to go to a cheaper school, maybe they wanted to be by a significant other. But the data showed no difference between those who went and those who were accepted. You can also run tests when there’s a sharp cutoff. Stuyvesent High School (the top High School in the US) has a test whee if you pass you get in, if you fail you’re out. So what do you do? If the cutoff is at 700 points you compare the lies of those who scored 699 with those who scored 700. Since there’s no reason to believe the 700ers are much smarter than the 699ers, it’s a good way of comparing people of about equal skill... those who went and those who didn’t. The difference in life success? Nil. Same thing.

Even more, all the studies on this seem to suggest that you can either send a kid off to Harvard or plop him in a library for 4 years and the results will be almost exactly the same. I mean this has been well-researched and the data on this is very clear.

 

[Fantasticlife]

Here is my perspective.

I think that if you're unsure of what you want to to do with your life, you should go to college until you figure it out.

I love MJ's book, but one issue I have with it is his hatred of college education and getting a job.

The millionaire fastlane claims that there are 3 financial paths: the sidewalk, the slowlane, and the fastlane. The destination is financial freedom.

If one could paint a metaphor , financial freedom is a destination that is 100 miles away. The sidewalk is like standing still. The slowlane is like walking. The fastlane is like building a bicycle or a car.

But there is one path that isn't included here. Running.

The days where people would just get a job for $15 and work that job until age 65 are gone. There are MANY scripted paths one could take to retire by age 35-40.
I know many people in their early /mid 20's making upwards of 250K. One could easily retire a millionaire by their early 30's with a pair of golden handcuffs.

Some people might think"Why?" Why would someone want to spend their youngest years working for someone else? Why wouldn't they just start a business and make a lot of money way faster?

Think about the tortoise and the hare. The tortoise goes slow and steady. The hare get's cocky, and falls behind in the race.

If you're young and don't know what to do, going to college until you figure it out can be a great plan.

Also, if your goal is to be an entrepreneur, going to college can give you access to a ton of resources that you may not have access to if you don't go.

Entrepreneurship is NOT the only path to wealth. It is an alternative path, and probably the hardest.

 

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[TonyStark]

Yup, free talks and meetups.

Had many a session, meeting with tax experts, actual entrepreneurs and even bank officers sharing their insights.

And don't forget free engineering software.

And free access to legal journals (I took a business law course). Me thinks the latter is helpful for at least freelance legal work (that is, if you can read the legal cases without glazing over)

One doesn’t simply enroll in university and get free stuff....

Unless your university is free.

If it isn’t, then you’re paying for all of that. Lol

 

[PizzaOnTheRoof]

.A 22 year old software engineer with little skill and a CS degree is more likely to be hired than an engineer with no degree and 10 years of experience

Well that’s just not true.

The 10 year should have a healthy portfolio of work/experience and current knowledge of the industry. Not to mention he’s sold himself well in the interview because he’s done it for the past 10 years. Plus team and communication skills.

It’s like hiring a fresh art degree grad as a tattoo artist over someone with a 500 page book of work and happy customers.

Smh

 

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[ChrisV]

99% of the forum members are pro college,

Yea okay. The anti-academia rhetoric around here is literally palpable among a decent group of members.

To OP: I don’t think MJ has anything against college.

And you dont necessarily need college to be successful. I do a lot of work for Academia with Harvard Grads, Yale Phds, etc despite my relative lack of formal education. If you can get the job done, people will want you.

Here’s the issue.... the universities have gone further and further left as times went on. Now it’s just a liberal shitshow with a number of useless degrees. Gender Studies. Woman Studies. I mean if you’re going into the STEM fields you’re safe, but the humanities? omfg STAY OUT. I’d say stay OUT of almost ALL liberal arts degrees until this university mess is sorted out. It’s a weird time for the Academies. You can get an English Lit degree without EVER having read Sheakespeare. Why? Post-modern philosophy believes that all art is subjective, so a painting that looks like someone had the hershey squirts with a paint can is just as valuable as a rembrandt, because they believe in some BS equality around art.

But I whole heartedly agree with the original post. If you don’t know what you want, go to a cheap state school. People straw man with “mountains of debt”... I live in NY and going to ANY state school is completely tuition free. Even in other states state school or community college is ultra cheap (1000-2000/semester.) But also, if you’re fortunate enough to get into one of the Ivies like Harvard or Yale GO. If you’re getting accepted into Ivy League or any Top 10 schools(like University of Chicago) you’ve probably got “success” written all over your future anyway. Those schools are amazing at picking out people who will be successful, and the irony is they pick people who would have been successful with or without college (that’s statistically proven.)

My suggestion? Either go for the Gold (Top 10 school) or go the bronze (State school/community college) Why? The middle tier schools basically cost just as much as the Ivies! So if you’re gonna rack up that debt, eff it... go to Stanford. Don’t rack up a bunch of debt going to a mediocre school.

But college is a great place to find yourself. It’s a great place to challenge your preconceived notions. As long as it’s not some liberal shitshow like East and West Coast universities. I recommend looking into a website called Heterodox Academy, who rates political biases of universities (which is a major issue these days)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Healthfulness]

I definitely agree with the OP. There are far too many "entrepreuners" who drop out school without having real idea what to do, but only "I don't wan't to be slave, I'll be an entrepreuner". Few months, often even years later they are grinding in some horrible physical labor intensive job and blaming life for being so hard.
Drop out or don't to school if You know what to do and if You can commit to being success. Some people are far to weak, far too lazy and far too dumb to drop out and build a business.
Probably it depends on the study program, but I have no problem studying, working, training daily and spending 4+ hours daily to work on my stuff.
*Note. This is different is USA, You have to pay insane money for school. In Europe it's free so if You're from USA, I would rather move (if possible) to Europe or yeah, just work hard on entrepreuneurinal projects.

 

[JG17]

*Note. This is different is USA, You have to pay insane money for school. In Europe it's free so if You're from USA, I would rather move (if possible) to Europe or yeah, just work hard on entrepreuneurinal projects.

This really isn't true mate. There are a lot of European countries where it is free or close to free, there are also a lot of European countries where it is very expensive, none more so than the UK. Still cheaper than the USA, but please don't put out blanket statements like that if you don't know the facts.

 

[socaldude]

Is it possible to be successful without college? Yes. But the chances are lower.

Probabilities look different for each person depending on their level of knowledge, experience, motivation etc.

Obviously if someone skips college and stays home all day with mom playing video games then that person has a <1% chance of success.

Some people should go to college and will benefit and become doctors and that's fine but entrepreneurship is for people who don't care nor want that type of path.

Which is more riskier?

1. Waste 4 years and spend $60K to get a commoditized piece of paper?

2. Start a business and start learning?

One has low cost, and almost nothing to lose. The other requires a lot if time and debt to get nothing to show for it. One has almost unlimited earning potential one gets you a $35K/year job.

And I would argue that someone who is self-taught is 10x more likely to be successful than someone who waits to get spoon fed information and taught.

And if college is so great why don't these institutions stand behind their products in the form of refunds? Why do they raise their prices so much?

 

[GuestUser4aMPs1]

Oh OK, so you're not here to learn anything but here to TROLL us with your worldview.

+1 Op is trolling.

Lock Thread.

 

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[Raoul Duke]

Sounds like a great plan.

 

[socaldude]

I don't like polarizing decisions as everyone's situation is different.

But college is one of those things where it almost makes zero economic sense to go.

What worries me about the bubble is that it mixes an asset with powerful psycho-social conditioning.

In other words ever since you are in first grade we are brain washed to value good grades and college all without any analysis to it's cost($100k!) and application(I got a 10th century poetry degree!). Nope, just get one and you will be all set!

The tricky thing about this asset is that there is no value or price like a stock market index.

Nope, if there was there would be massive sell-off of college degrees. So people are pretty much clueless as to it's value until they get one.

I mean, I would sell my college degree in heart beat if someone would pay me for it.

 

[samuraijack]

Yeah. I read Mj's book a few years ago and decide not to go to college, trying to start a few businesses. It didnt work out, and I seriously regret not going. But it's ok. I can still go now.

I have to be realistic. I am not an entrepreneur, and that's OK. I remember Mark Cuban once saying something along the lines of "I'd much rather make 40k a year working 80 hours a week working for myself than make 250k working for someone else." Being honest with myself, I would take the 250K job. So I don't have that mindset.

Think about the long term! College grads earn more on average than people without a degree.
In case if the business doesn't work out, one always has the degree to fall back on.

Is it possible to be successful without college? Yes. But the chances are lower.


Zero economic sense? That's absurd!Think about the long term! College grads earn more on average than people without a degree.

Here is a summary of the OP for those just tuning in. He is in the wrong forum, before you waste your energy typing up a well thought out reply.

 

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[GuestUser4aMPs1]

have the good job and degree to fall back on if it doesnt work out.

This quote brought to you by College Board USA and my Mom.

 

[lewj24]

I’m a Statistician and one of my businesses is a business analytics company. I definitely understand. I already touched on the causality issue in another post.

Okay Mr. Statistician. You never talked about the biases I pointed out. Please explain why those biases don't matter in your statistical analysis.

(try being an economist without training.)

I've personally learned more about economics on my own than in my college courses. They didn't even tell me there were different schools of economic thought, you would think that would be the first day.

You can train yourself in anything. Ever heard of someone teaching themselves how to code, play guitar, or read? Same deal. Did a college course teach Elon Musk how to build a rocket?

You do realize that most of college is just textbooks right? You can learn every subject by literally buying the college textbooks and reading them on your own. You know, those same textbooks the colleges force you to buy on your own after you pay tuition. And instead of buying the 13th edition for $479.99 you can get the 9th edition for $30 and it has almost all the same info in it.

 

[Fantasticlife]

I think going to college with no idea of what you want is a recipe for disappointment and mountains of debt.

As for taking a slowlane approach and retiring by 35-40, yes it’s possible. It’s called FIRE (Fincancialy Independent or Retire Early).

The FIRE crowd are optimizing for saving money, with the hope of retiring early-er...

The issue is that those slowlaners planning to retire at 40 are living frugal lives with 2 weeks of vacation a year and are at the mercy of other people’s decisions for the next 20 years.

If you can lose your income source because someone got hot coffee spilled on them that morning, does that sound like a good option?

The Fastlane flips the entire narrative on its head and asks, what if I optimize for freedom and control instead?

And as we’ve seen many times before here is that the recipe works.

Just look at @Andy Black, he doesn’t own a multi-million dollar business yet he has freedom and happiness and loves what he does.

But most importantly, he has control. He is the driver of his life.

I too loved MJ's book and he hits the nail on the head about it being a script of school > college > job > 45 years later > retire. Like people do it without thinking because that's what everyone else is doing. But I didn't completely agree about college/university being a waste of time and money. That's because I have the view that the more educated people are the better society we live in, and the argument about piling on debt was quite US-centric and won't apply to everyone.

Also, one of the fastlane commandments is ENTRY. Education can be a big barrier to entry.
I mean think about it. Who's business is harder to compete with; the pizza shop around the corner or the 32-year old doctor's biotech medical device startup?

 

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[Royce2]

If you go to college for the SCRIPTED reasons, to then get a steady job and all that. College is completely stupid. Ironically, I am going to a online university for a bachelors in computer science. I am going there to simply force myself, it's a way of disciplining myself to learn the content so that I can then use it for my UNSCRIPTED purposes. To start a software company and more.

Its a self paced system that splits into terms. 1 term = 6 months. You pay a flat rate of $3,500 per term to cram in as much classes as you can. I'm already done with two and I'm only on week 3. I can just take complacency tests if I feel as if I have a good grasp on the subject and skip the entire class in itself! Very awesome system if you ask me. WGU online, check it out.

College is a huge waste of time/money/everything else if you have no plan of unscripting yourself.

 

[Fastlane Liam]

Do you have to go to college to be knowledgeable at something?
Sure if you're going into the working world you need that piece of paper to prove it,
But in Business? Not one bit. People pay for results

 

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[ChrisV]

Okay, I really feel a need to put this college/job vs self-education/entrepreneurship subject to rest.

Okay, In psychology there’s a personality scale called the Big 5. Two of those metrics are Conscientiousness and Openness to Experience. Conscientiousness people are orderly, enjoy structure and like social hierarchies. For those types of people, college and a formal job is where it’s at! It’s perfect for them. They crave that type of daily structure. They like being to work at 8:50 (10 minutes early) and leaving at 5:01. Why? Because their personalities just need structure. College and a job is part of the structure.

Now people who are lower on conscientiousness? They hate rules. They think that rules inhibit them. These people are much more likely to be libertarians, another group that dislikes rules. They’re also more likely to be entrepreneurs because the ‘structure’ of a 9-5 drives them nuts. They want to do things on their terms and innovate.

The second personality trait that determines if you’ll choose the career or entrepreneurship path is Openness to Experience. These people like doing new things. They’re creative and they like novelty.

Not everyone dislikes the whole 9-5 thing. Some people need it. They like to follow rules. The other type of person can’t stand the 9-5 thing. They like to break little rules and social norms in the search for innovation.

What you prefer is really a matter of your temperament.

So it’s really a matter of ‘different strokes for different folks.'