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WJK

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@Andy Black @WJK I need your help on this one.

I'm going to actually come out clear about what I'm thinking at the moment. I felt shy talking about this but now I don't care. This is what was ACTUALLY going on in my head when posting this thread.

I'm not satisfied with what I have made so far with content writing/copywriting. I'm not satisfied with knowing that I have spent so much time learning a high-end skill (I don't regret any second learning copywriting, I only regret not making much money).

I chose copywriting because it's a crucial skill for an entrepreneur. I know that I haven't tried hard enough, but it seems like making money as a VA is far easier than what I am doing at the moment.

This thing is messing with my head really bad. Part of me says stick to copywriting, stick to the agency, and find clients on upwork, other part says, learn Amazon VA, make money, then progress further.

But here's the twist....

I am from Pakistan. Why is this important? Because Paypal isn't available here. And the only payment I can currently receive is within Pakistan. I know, you can make a payoneer account, but I don't want to trouble my dad for making a payoneer account. I can't receive payments from outside of Pakistan.

2nd method: I learn the amazon VA skill. In Pakistan, we have high demand of this skill, so I can find clients within Pakistan and payment wouldn't be an issue. I will still continue to work with the agency and continue learning copywriting.
You can always practice your writing as you go along. You can exercise the plan I sent you earlier without missing heart, while you chase your other business endeavors. It's not really a choice between one or the other -- writing and VA. Get yourself some clients and SERVE THEM WELL. Get the dollar signs out of your eyes and go to work. Success in one area or another will lead to more success in related fields. Stop over thinking it and get started.
I can't talk about how you get paid. But, others are talking about that issue.
 

WJK

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That's naive of me to use that phrase. No one can master marketing indeed, seems like I forgot what I wanted to say.


What I actually meant was, "When I get assure myself that I can deliver value to someone in marketing and branding"
Then offer to work for free... right now... today... find a need... do some copy and put it onto story boards... submit to the potential client... revise... submit again... revise again... practice on real people with real problems...
 

Saad Khan

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Magic happens when you start helping OTHERS by SOLVING problems
You're absolutely right. But I have been providing value to a client at an agency and let me tell you, he's a real son of a perfectionist. He made every department redo its work over 5 times. That includes content, design, web design and dev, UI/UX department. And the worst part, this is our first ever client that I've been told I'll be paid for.

With an almost unsatisfiable client like that, me and my colleague sacrificed our nights to complete his demanded work, rewrote it again entirely for him at least 4 times. At this stage, my brain stopped working. My mind shifted from, "How can I provide value?" to "How can I stop slaving for this client?" The problem may be my mindset shift which is fixed now but my feedback loop has only fired blanks up until now.

I really can't wait to get paid for his work so I can never see his face again in my life... The promises he made us write in the pitch deck... only God knows smh
 

Saad Khan

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Then offer to work for free... right now... today... find a need... do some copy and put it onto story boards... submit to the potential client... revise... submit again... revise again... practice on real people with real problems...
Already doing it... Already doing it. I've volunteered to write for people and I have that value mindset but the insatiable client at the agency has been pissing the whole agency staff for the last 3 months. Plus, he's the kind of a person to demand the work in under a day and checks it a week later. A kind of a person who doesn't even know what his own business models are, a person who made us rewrite his business models 4 times, a predator in disguise.

Believe me, when I volunteered to work with other people, they were nice, cooperative, and willing to understand. That just makes me wonder I'd have made so much faster progress by choosing not to slave 4 to 5 hrs for that guy and focusing on helping other people with my copy.
 

Saad Khan

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Open a bank account and have your clients send you money through Transferwise.
Only if I could... I'm 17 years old. But I'll find a method anyway.

Time to focus on providing value to clients other than that insatiable client at the agency. Nothing wrong with the agency, feels like home. But now I know who's ungrateful and why every other client deserves value.
 

Saad Khan

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Did you listen to that podcast I linked to above? What were your takeaways?

Maybe also listen to “Who have you helped?” in my signature.
My takeaways:

If there was one thing to learn from this podcast, I'd say it is understanding that sales is a substitute word for "Helping other people solve their problems"

1. Some people think of sales as door-to-door cold calling, which isn't comfortable for a lot of people.

2. Sales is a learnable skill, just like copywriting, which is selling by text. You're not born with sales skills.

When I told my college classmate about me learning marketing, he instantly said, "Oh, do you know that people have natural marketing skills? They're born marketers, look at you man, you can spend your time in a better way. Come study these formulas and theorems we have a test for tomorrow..."

3. Sales is a mindset. What I mean by this is that sales look like a tedious process when you're shoving something up their faces, but if you believe your offer solves their problem and benefits them, you're helping them as well as doing sales. Or you can say, "I'm doing them a favor by presenting my solution to their problem."

4. This one really hits home, you don't need to read books to solve problems. Nor do you need a course. You should start selling the moment you have an idea. Sell the idea, get feedback, act, assess, and adjust.

5. I've been thinking like a perfectionist subconsciously, which is dangerous. Guess what, you need communication skills. If you're good enough at communicating, they'll trust you with the technical work as well.

6. Sales is a screening process. You don't have to sell to everyone you come across, rather you help them instead.
 

deepneuralnet

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I am from Pakistan. Why is this important? Because Paypal isn't available here. And the only payment I can currently receive is within Pakistan. I know, you can make a payoneer account, but I don't want to trouble my dad for making a payoneer account. I can't receive payments from outside of Pakistan.
dude, get payoneer. You can get it after your 18th birthday cuz u need a bank account, it will solve all sorts of problems.
 

WJK

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My takeaways:

If there was one thing to learn from this podcast, I'd say it is understanding that sales is a substitute word for "Helping other people solve their problems"

1. Some people think of sales at door-to-door cold calling, which isn't comfortable for a lot of people.
2. Sales is a learnable skill, just like copywriting, which is selling by text. You're not born with sales skills.

When I told my college classmate about me learning marketing, he instantly said, "Oh, do you know that people have natural marketing skills? They're born marketers, look at you man, you can spend your time in a better way. Come study these formulas and theorems we have a test for tomorrow..."

3. Sales is a mindset. What I mean by this is that sales look like a tedious process when you're shoving something up their faces, but if you believe your offer solves their problem and benefits them, you're helping them as well as doing sales. Or you can say, "I'm doing them a favor by presenting my solution to their problem."

4. This one really hits home, you don't need to read books to solve problems. Nor do you need a course. You should start selling the moment you have an idea. Sell the idea, get feedback, act, assess, and adjust.

5. I've been thinking like a perfectionist subconsciously, which is dangerous. Guess what, you need communication skills. If you're good enough at communicating, they'll trust you with the technical work as well.

6. Sales is a screening process. You don't have to sell to everyone you come across, rather you help them instead.
You don't have to be a perfectionist in order to be good at sales. The winning technique is SO simple. You use your ears and your mouth in the proportions that God gave them to you. Listen twice as much as you talk. Use you mouth to ask them questions about themselves. Then listen to their answers with your whole heart. They will tell you everything that you need to know in order to serve them.
 

Saad Khan

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dude, get payoneer. You can get it after your 18th birthday cuz u need a bank account, it will solve all sorts of problems.
Well, you know Pakistani parents, my age on my birth certificate is 16, while my actual age is 17. So I have to wait two years. But nonetheless, I'll find a way. I heard that you can make a bank account with a smart card, is it true? I can't wait 2 years so I'll make a smart card very soon.
 

Saad Khan

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You don't have to be a perfectionist in order to be good at sales. The winning technique is SO simple. You use your ears and your mouth in the proportions that God gave them to you. Listen twice as much as you talk. Use you mouth to ask them questions about themselves. Then listen to their answers with your whole heart. They will tell you everything that you need to know in order to serve them.
Couldn't have said it better, @WJK
 

Andy Black

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You’ll learn to drop demanding clients like that as soon as they show their colours. You may even be able to spot them in advance now.

They don’t know what they want and are wasting everyone’s time, including their own.

Can you get the agency owner to drop them as a client? They should have done this already so they could use their resources better.

“Sales is a screening process” right? That’s both ways.

Loved your takeaways from that podcast episode. I’m delighted some of it clicked with you. Would love it if you could add those to the bottom of the podcast episode thread.

Maybe check out the other chats linked to in my signature too.
 

Andy Black

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I've been thinking like a perfectionist subconsciously, which is dangerous. Guess what, you need communication skills. If you're good enough at communicating, they'll trust you with the technical work as well.
In the first couple of minutes of this episode we talk about perfectionism:
 

Saad Khan

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You’ll learn to drop demanding clients like that as soon as they show the it colours. You may even be able to spot them in advance now.

They don’t know what they want and are wasting everyone’s time, including their own.

Can you get the agency owner to drop them as a client? They should have done this already so they could use their resources better.

“Sales is a screening process” right? That’s both ways.

Loved your takeaways from that podcast episode. I’m delighted some of it clicked with you. Would love it if you could add those to the bottom of the podcast episode thread.

Maybe check out the other chats linked to in my signature too.
Thank you, Andy, you're the kind of mentor many of us don't deserve. You go out of your way to help nobodies become somebodies. I saw you even helping @BlackMagician all the way in his execution thread. It doesn't take a genius to know that you're fulfilled and satisfied with life, something that a very few people achieve.
 

Saad Khan

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Can you get the agency owner to drop them as a client?
The agency owner has other plans. He plans to work further with him. Why? Because he owns a medium-sized logistics company and already has big clients in the market. He hasn't paid a dime yet, but looking at his ambitious plans and his business, the agency owner wants to have his account.

Well.... a high-maintenance client who seems like he's going to drop serious money. I just hope that the money isn't pre-decided in the contract since we definitely worked wayyyy harder than that.

I'm going to stick with the agency so I can build my portfolio and shift my jobs within the departments so I can become a well-rounded marketer.
 

Andy Black

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The agency owner has other plans. He plans to work further with him. Why? Because he owns a medium-sized logistics company and already has big clients in the market. He hasn't paid a dime yet, but looking at his ambitious plans and his business, the agency owner wants to have his account.

Well.... a high-maintenance client who seems like he's going to drop serious money. I just hope that the money isn't pre-decided in the contract since we definitely worked wayyyy harder than that.

I'm going to stick with the agency so I can build my portfolio and shift my jobs within the departments so I can become a well-rounded marketer.
Remember that, for you, they aren’t a client until the money is in your account. Until then it’s just a promise of money in your account and they’re a prospect, not a client.
 

Andy Black

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Saad Khan

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Remember that, for you, they aren’t a client until the money is in your account. Until then it’s just a promise of money in your account and they’re a prospect, not a client.
So next time, do you recommend I get upfront payment first? Like 50% payment upfront. What's the least % should I accept. I don't have a clue about pricing. Right now, I'm just uttering random numbers.
 

Andy Black

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So next time, do you recommend I get upfront payment first? Like 50% payment upfront. What's the least % should I accept. I don't have a clue about pricing. Right now, I'm just uttering random numbers.
No hard and fast rules. There’s a time and a place for doing some work for free, and doing some work prior to getting paid. Just don’t get strung along by the takers of this world.
 

deepneuralnet

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Well, you know Pakistani parents, my age on my birth certificate is 16, while my actual age is 17. So I have to wait two years. But nonetheless, I'll find a way. I heard that you can make a bank account with a smart card, is it true? I can't wait 2 years so I'll make a smart card very soon.
hahaha same with me bruh, I'm actually 21 but I'm officially 20 by the national database(a year and a half younger xD). I don't know about the smart card bro, if it works go for it.
 

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