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Atlas Shrugged - Week 3: Ch 5&6

MTEE1985

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I want to be up close and personal and see which character aligns with my personal values most.
I found myself also unable to identify with any single character, yet all of them at once.

This is what I’ve been asking myself throughout the book:

What characteristics of each person do I feel I have now?

What characteristics of each person do I want to emulate moving forward?

Who would I most want to align with in my life and business dealings?


To clarify my point from earlier @Primeperiwinkle I too think politics is despicable and find hundreds of things tied for the top of my “most shitty thing going on in the world” list. I just singled one out as it pertained to the discussion of similarities between the book and current environment.

Moral, economic, political etc are all intertwined regardless of how they are weighted. My current focus is on the future politic/economic direction our country is in and headed. @csalvato posted a great article the other day about it:


There are so many similarities to this book and where things appear to be headed and where we are now in the US as well as where the appetite of this countries citizens appears to be headed. So many so that I’ve accelerated plans and had discussions with fellow forum members on when and where myself and my family might move to in the next 2-5 years.

I believe you read and interpret at a much deeper level than me which is why you are still dissecting characters that I felt I knew after 4 chapters. You of all people know that I’m an emotional moron :rofl:
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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You of all people know that I’m an emotional moron

Bs. Everything you say is thought provoking. I’m just still mad about golf. Forevvvverrrrr!
 

csalvato

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And got frustrated maybe?

Noted. I should have done w/o that – it only took away from my ability to communicate with you, and added nothing.

You want me to dissect the characters values but frankly, I can’t. They’re not fully complete to me, yet. I only know such a very tiny bit about them.

Like for all that I do not sympathize with Reardens marriage woes I do think his invention is phenomenal. And for all I want Dagny to succeed because she’s so incredibly passionate - I think her focus is sad and deeply flawed.

I’m still learning them, I suppose.

At this point, we have about 100-150 pages on that have a ton of info on Hank, Dagny and James, at the least.

For comparison, that's the same amount information you'd have on Harry Potter, Draco Malfoy and Hermione Granger halfway through The Sorcerer's Stone! :jawdrop:

Even looking over a single chapter with Dagny (like I did in the Ch 3 & 4 discussion) unveils a lot about the things she values:
  1. Productivity
  2. Not being a looter
  3. Decisiveness
  4. The word of other productive people
  5. Technological Advancement
Rearden values:
  1. The opinions of others (his family, which is why they are such a source of his stress)
  2. Productivity
  3. Decisiveness
  4. Staying out of politics (which is why he pays so little mind to his "man in washington" in the party scene)
James Taggart values:
  1. The opinions of others
  2. Being regarded as philosophical/altruistic
  3. Being taken seriously for the sake of being taken seriously

You may have a hard time seeing these values if you're trying to identify with any single one of them.

For example, I highly value decisiveness and productivity (like Dagny and Rearden), and often catch myself with a bruised ego when I'm rejected for a meeting or a sales call – even though I did nothing to earn that meeting (like James Taggart).
 
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BizyDad

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Do you think there are any similarities to what we see in society today?

I thought this quote was annoying and ridiculous when I read it. "My dear madam, the duty of thinkers is not to explain, but to demonstrate that nothing can be explained."

Then I saw this headline.

Bizarre New Quantum Research: Reality Itself May Be Subjective

Objective truth is being called into question.

You think morality is bad now? Just wait. Buckle up, we are in for a wild ride.

Do you see any of yourself in the characters? If so, who?

I've seen glimpses in several. But I also feel like we don't know the characters yet. It isn't about page count. It's that I've only seen facets of these people.

And apparently other states are like that with all the People's states of whatever overseas

Yes, I missed this the first time. Is this taking place in the people's state of America? Is this taking place in some alt reality not intended to reflect our world? (If you've read ahead, don't spoiler)

Oh dear, I wonder how you're going to come out of the end of this book. :)

Pfft. I feel about libertarians the way I feel about pacifists. I can sympathize, I just can't be swayed to agree. They both lose me on the subject of a strong military. It's nice to be an idealist, the world needs them, but that's not me.
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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Im in a very low mood today.. I’m a weird reader too. I doubt everything. Until the end of the book I’ll still be wondering if it isn’t all a dream or an idea or if the whole thing could be turned inside out.. somehow. I’m awful at mysteries. I never guess the right person.

I think talking about values is incredibly intimate. I don’t enjoy doing so here where my values are in print and up for debate. At all. It feels too personal. It’s not that I’m unsure of what I believe but I can’t explain them all to people who don’t share my vocabulary in such things. I feel like you, in particular are coming from such a foreign place compared to me. This book is hard work to read..

Talking about the book is even more so.. I don’t know if I value half the things these people do (and I’m assuming most of you) but I don’t feel like I have the intellectual capability to defend myself well enough to pierce through the ... something.. that is fundamentally awful about this book. Because I’m getting the distinct impression that it IS awful. Like a Tour de Force of evil.. but that sounds a bit much. Lol.

Plus the book makes one feel terrified and anxious about impending doom. Gah.
 

csalvato

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Pfft. I feel about libertarians the way I feel about pacifists. I can sympathize, I just can't be swayed to agree. They both lose me on the subject of a strong military. It's nice to be an idealist, the world needs them, but that's not me.

IIUC, Big L Libertarians and little L libertarians aren’t necessarily against a strong military, right?

I thought both groups are just for a military that’s large enough to support self defense and small enough to not impede individual liberties through over funding or trying to drive innovation like the private sector should.
 

csalvato

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Im in a very low mood today.. I’m a weird reader too. I doubt everything. Until the end of the book I’ll still be wondering if it isn’t all a dream or an idea or if the whole thing could be turned inside out.. somehow. I’m awful at mysteries. I never guess the right person.

I think talking about values is incredibly intimate. I don’t enjoy doing so here where my values are in print and up for debate. At all. It feels too personal. It’s not that I’m unsure of what I believe but I can’t explain them all to people who don’t share my vocabulary in such things. I feel like you, in particular are coming from such a foreign place compared to me. This book is hard work to read..

Talking about the book is even more so.. I don’t know if I value half the things these people do (and I’m assuming most of you) but I don’t feel like I have the intellectual capability to defend myself well enough to pierce through the ... something.. that is fundamentally awful about this book. Because I’m getting the distinct impression that it IS awful. Like a Tour de Force of evil.. but that sounds a bit much. Lol.

Plus the book makes one feel terrified and anxious about impending doom. Gah.

I think it’s pretty common for people who don’t share the values of the protagonists in the book to absolutely HATE Atlas Shrugged.

Entrepreneurs tend to share those values, so most of them love it.

If you were to post this book discussion on a Communism forum, this discussion have very very different sorts of responses in it :)

This book is very polarizing; I think that’s already coming through :D

Just my take from reading a bunch of analyses from both sides of the table.
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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I think it’s pretty common for people who don’t share the values of the protagonists in the book to absolutely HATE Atlas Shrugged.

Entrepreneurs tend to share those values, so most of them love it.

If you were to post this book discussion on a Communism forum, this discussion have very very different sorts of responses in it :)

Just my take from reading a bunch of analyses from both sides of the table.

That doesn’t make me feel any better. I’m on an entrepreneurial forum. To say I don’t share the values of entrepreneurs is essentially a life-altering statement. Must I be like these characters to be a “good” entrepreneur?
 

csalvato

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That doesn’t make me feel any better. I’m on an entrepreneurial forum. To say I don’t share the values of entrepreneurs is essentially a life-altering statement. Must I be like these characters to be a “good” entrepreneur?

I didn’t say all entrepreneurs share those values. I said entrepreneurs, in general, tend to share those values.

Andrew Yang and Reid Hoffman would be examples of entrepreneurs who have different values to Dagny and Rearden. I’d put down a years income they HATE Atlas Shrugged.

They are both successful, impactful entrepreneurs.

I wouldn’t consider this realization about yourself to be damning; this is just teaching you something about yourself for this chapter of your story, imo. You write your own story!

You’re fine the way you are, and only through a level of comfort with that can you self express as whatever you want to be - entrepreneur or otherwise!
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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I wouldn’t consider this realization about yourself to be damning; this is just teaching you something about yourself for this chapter of your story, imo. You write your own story!

You’re fine the way you are, and only through a level of comfort with that can you self express as whatever you want to be - entrepreneur or otherwise!

We slide by each other in conversations. I’m sure of it. It’s not “damning” to admit a truth. Also, I don’t believe in writing my own story idgaf what any self-help book says. Also, ppl are never fine the way they are, we all need to grow.

I’m looking for absolute truth not relative truth. I’m looking for the Ideal Image not my own self-proclaimed image.

I think the group of us need to figure out if entrepreneurs should be like these characters, in any way.
 
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csalvato

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I’m looking for absolute truth not relative truth. I’m looking for the Ideal Image not my own self-proclaimed image.

And now we’re in the weedy mess that I call “the good part” — a truly uncomfortable discussion :D
 

Primeperiwinkle

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And now we’re in the weedy mess that I call “the good part” — a truly uncomfortable discussion :D

It’s not weedy to me dude. It’s nice to talk about absolute truth to me.
 

csalvato

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It’s not weedy to me dude. It’s nice to talk about absolute truth to me.

You slid by me, again :)

I meant the notion of an “absolute truth” has kept philosophers busy for millennia, so we are “in the weeds”.

Since a lot of my thoughts on this topic were shaped by AS, I’ll reserve them until the book discussion is over. ;)
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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You slid by me, again :)

I meant the notion of an “absolute truth” has kept philosophers busy for millennia, so we are “in the weeds”.

Since a lot of my thoughts on this topic were shaped by AS, I’ll reserve them until the book discussion is over. ;)

You keep escaping conversations like this. I truly feel bad for you if this book helped form any ideas you have about absolute truth. But I guess.. I still have a great deal of the book to go.
 

csalvato

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You keep escaping conversations like this. I truly feel bad for you if this book helped form any ideas you have about absolute truth. But I guess.. I still have a great deal of the book to go.

This is like when you’re driving a friend to a surprise party and they keep asking you:

“Where are we going? Just tell me where we are going? Why won’t you tell me where we are going? Is it fun? You keep dodging the question. Why can’t you just tell me?”

But you know if you tell them they will say “WTF why did you ruin the fact that my friends are throwing me a surprise party?!!”
 

Primeperiwinkle

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This is like when you’re driving a friend to a surprise party and they keep asking you:

“Where are we going? Just tell me where we are going? Why won’t you tell me where we are going? Is it fun? You keep dodging the question. Why can’t you just tell me?”

But you know if you tell them they will say “WTF why did you ruin the fact that my friends are throwing me a surprise party?!!”

Ohhhh. Ok then. Stop mentioning the party at all then what with all your talk of values! Just let the ppl in the car discuss the weather without mentioning parties at all.

Just FYI I LOATHE surprises.
#2 FYI I wouldn’t let you drive us anywhere. I’m worried about your driving ability.

Rofl
 
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BizyDad

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IIUC, Big L Libertarians and little L libertarians aren’t necessarily against a strong military, right?

I thought both groups are just for a military that’s large enough to support self defense and small enough to not impede individual liberties through over funding or trying to drive innovation like the private sector should.

That's the second time I caught you contradicting yourself. This time, I'll leave it to you to find it. Wouldn't want to spoil the surprise. ;)
 

csalvato

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That's the second time I caught you contradicting yourself. This time, I'll leave it to you to find it. Wouldn't want to spoil the surprise. ;)

Nice try! I didn’t say they were my beliefs, just my understanding based on what I know :D

Source: Foreign Policy

I’m actually for the weak military you despise, but that’s a separate conversation all together :)
 

Kruiser

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  • Do you think there are any similarities to what we see in society today?
  • Do you see any of yourself in the characters? If so, who?
  • Has the book changed anything about how you look at the world?

1. As @broswoodwork already called out, someone's financing strategy for her Medicare plan seems particularly on point.

2. Now, when I even THINK about thinking a thought that James Taggart could possibly think, I quickly reconsider. Dagny, Rearden, and D'Anconia all have admirable qualities. The funny thing about those three is that, while they each have some very attractive qualities, they are all deeply flawed. "Unbalanced" isn't quite the right word. Maybe "unintegrated" is better. I speculate that Rand is NOT making them out to be heroes. But, what are they then?

3. I think I am much more attuned to thoughts and actions that are excuse-laden and deny self-responsibility, both in others and in myself.
 
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scottmsul

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For those who are reading this for the first time.
  • Do you think there are any similarities to what we see in society today?
  • Do you see any of yourself in the characters? If so, who?
  • Has the book changed anything about how you look at the world?

Elon Musk seems very similar to the industrial protagonists in the book. Starting a rocket startup is insane. Inventing re-usable rockets is crazy. He sounds a lot like Hank Reardon, except Elon is a well-liked celebrity. Does anyone wonder why that is? Did Rand get something wrong about the world, or is Elon just different?
 

lludwig

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Elon Musk seems very similar to the industrial protagonists in the book. Starting a rocket startup is insane. Inventing re-usable rockets is crazy. He sounds a lot like Hank Reardon, except Elon is a well-liked celebrity. Does anyone wonder why that is? Did Rand get something wrong about the world, or is Elon just different?

Elon IMHO is like a James Taggert at least in two areas:
  • His government assistance for his businesses (tax rebates (Telsa), public loans (Telsa), usage of his company services (SpaceX), etc.)
  • He promotes altruism which society very much likes.
Obviously Elon is much much more than that, but that is at least in my eyes why he's well-liked.
 

BizyDad

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Nice try! I didn’t say they were my beliefs, just my understanding based on what I know :D

Source: Foreign Policy

I’m actually for the weak military you despise, but that’s a separate conversation all together :)

Nice try? Oh, that's funny. :clap::

Also funny... your response amounts to "I didn't say that". I'm glad you already recognize the bit of James Taggert in you... :playful:

Also funny... Did I use the word belief? Or despise? There's a straw man, and there's fallacy #3. ;)

Nice try though!

**Let's break for a gratuitous A Few Good Men reference**

It appears your "understanding" and/or "what you know" still contains logical fallacy #2. As long as that's true, I have neither the time nor the inclination to chat with you about a strong military. I'd rather you just said "thank you" and went about your day. You want the truth? You want the TRUTH? :rofl:


**Apologies to the people at the brownie table for turning up the TV too loud**

I love when I'm caught in a logical fallacy, since that's when I improve.

I thought this logical fallacy exercise is about improving, is that still the case?

You just let me know if this is the kind of "weedy mess" or "uncomfortable conversation" that you enjoy, ok? I'm happy to stop when you say when...

1574096222054.png
 
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BellaPippin

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Guys it's not Reardon, it's REARDEN, everytime you spell it wrong someone seizes the means of production
 

Primeperiwinkle

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I can’t possibly make a run for foam swords...

*eats popcorn

*thinks for a sec

@BellaPippin is now dubbed Keeper of The Foam Swords!!!!

Hey chica? Feel free to pass these out to whomever needs them.. my kids are dragging me away from my phone..
 
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Curious: how so?

I don't think I've seen him support altruism. Do you have an example that I missed?

yes the whole green movement is altruistic. You must buy my electric car to save the environment.
 
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Curious: how so?

I don't think I've seen him support altruism. Do you have an example that I missed?

He runs a part of Tesla in the red so that he can use the money on other ventures like:

He donated a million trees to the #teamtrees initiative (trying to plant 20 million trees by end of the year)

He put in resources to try to send help to the trapped students in that Thai cave, he paid for water filtration systems for schools in Flint, Michigan.

He envisions the Hyperloop to connect downtown to O'Hare so people skip traffic.

Nobody is a saint but I think he's proven to be a chill dude that already has the money he needs and envisions new and better ways to do stuff. Musk foundation has donated quite a bit of money to medical research, AI research and things like renewable energy.

Is he cocky about it? Yes, I'd be proud of myself too if I was able to do all that. He's like a Tony Stark :p
 

csalvato

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yes the whole green movement is altruistic. You must buy my electric car to save the environment.

Hmm...I might be arguing details, but I don't think that's altruism:

Image%2525202019-11-19%252520at%2525209.05.25%252520AM.png


Altruism is where you selflessly do things for others and expect nothing in return.

Jesus is the most accessible example of an altruist. He was healing lepers expecting nothing in return from them (and putting himself in the line of physical harm)

With regards to the green movement, Elon believes that CO2 emissions are a problem, and he's found a way to solve that problem while making a profit. In the example of the green movement, Elon would be an altruist if he was trying to get the public to invest in Tesla with no expectation of a return (i.e. a non-profit).

The green movement is a social mission; trying to solve that social mission is not the same thing as altruism, nor is taking government money to accomplish that mission - it's simply using an available tool to get the job done, I think.

I don't mean to drone on about this, but the difference between altruism and being mission-/purpose-focused is really important in Atlas Shrugged.

He runs a part of Tesla in the red so that he can use the money on other ventures like:

He donated a million trees to the #teamtrees initiative (trying to plant 20 million trees by end of the year)

He put in resources to try to send help to the trapped students in that Thai cave, he paid for water filtration systems for schools in Flint, Michigan.

He envisions the Hyperloop to connect downtown to O'Hare so people skip traffic.

I didn't know about some of this stuff. Most of it is undeniably altruistic. Thanks for letting me know!

With regards to running Tesla in the red: I'm 99% sure that's not to free up money for those other more altruistic initiatives. Tesla is a new car company that is going to be forced to run in the red for many more years. That's just something unavoidable in launching a car company because it's so capital intensive. He literally can't afford to take anything from Tesla's coffers unless he wanted it to die. SpaceX, maybe, but definitely not Tesla.

Re: Hyperloop — these are also for profit ventures, so I also don’t think this falls under altruism.
 
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