Freedom vs. Children

[Imgal]

Not having children yet I can't say the reality truly will be the same, but I honestly think that when I do it will actually be the making of me and my future success. Currently not being in a serious relationship or having kids gives me a lot of freedom to focus on my work when I want and without feeling that I'm ignoring others... but the truth is I also think it lets me slack a far bit. Right now I might be looking at 10x-ing the results of what I do each time I hit a target I've made for myself and I do. However, I often feel I have more to give that I don't... because I haven't got that final little nugget of motivation of having another generation looking to me, not to give them a golden lifestyle without the hard work, but to show them what can be achieved if they truly want something.

I don't think anything in life has to be an either or... just like @Kak says it's about working smart and working clever and having the right systems in place.

 

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[Ninjakid]

This thread has a lot less cyber-drama then I thought it would.

And I gots all the freedom in the world because I'm basically a child myself.

 

[Andy Black]

This thread has a lot less cyber-drama then I thought it would.

Lol. You thought there'd be more drama from the parents in the forum?


The parents are likely one or more of the following:

1) They're too tired to be logged in.

2) They're too tired to argue.

3) They've already had too much drama and arguing with their "little angels".

4) They've learnt to NOT be the one who gets stressed... as that means the little angels are winning. (Little angels are very good at finding the buttons so they can get their own way.)

5) They've learnt their role in life is as a referee. ("Who had it last?" ... "Sharing is caring!" ...)

6) They've learnt NOT to reward bad behaviour with attention, and instead to "Catch them when they're good."

7) They've learnt the best way to deal with tantrums and "I WANT!!!!" is not to fight fire with fire, but to be calm and absorb it, then deal with the root-cause. (Although this is a never-ending war and you're only as good as your last battle.)

8) They've learnt to pick their battles.
​

(I've been meaning to start a thread about what our kids teach us about business. I'll do that soon.)

 

[happybhoy]

Ironically, I feel becoming a parent actually gives you freedom from social pressures and a lifestyle of procrastinating.
its a lot easier to make sacrifices when you have children to care for.

 

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[IGP]

There is no greater joy for me than watching my kids grow and watching them experience the world. It's like a fountain of youth for me.

When I see them experience something for the first time, it often takes me back to that moment in my life.

When I see them struggle and then over come those struggles it gives me a feeling of pride that money simply cannot buy.

When I noticed a trait, quirk or expression that I know 100% is mine and not my wife's, I always get this strange feeling of gratification. Something I have never experienced via adrenaline, chemicals, God, money or sex. It's hard to describe and I'm sure it's some primal instinct to procreate or whatever, but again, nothing has ever given me these feelings before.

I have two daughters and I have made a lot of money over the years. I would trade all of that money for them in an instant.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

The Fastlane equation is about production over consumption.

Unfortunately, children are the ultimate defacto consumers -- both in time and money. For me I always recognized this and never considered the "have kids" option until later in life. Once I had more of both, time and money, then I would reconsider having children. Children require more than a full-time effort and from my POV, most kids are not getting that effort-- instead, they get a part-time effort from parents who are too busy with work. I didn't want to be that kind of parent.

Nonetheless, now that I'm in the position of having time and money, I really haven't had a change of heart.

My view on children is similar to @Red -- prioritize what you want and what makes you happy-- and go do it.

There is no greater joy for me than watching my kids grow and watching them experience the world. It's like a fountain of youth for me.

When I see them experience something for the first time, it often takes me back to that moment in my life.

When I see them struggle and then over come those struggles it gives me a feeling of pride that money simply cannot buy.

When I noticed a trait, quirk or expression that I know 100% is mine and not my wife's, I always get this strange feeling of gratification. Something I have never experienced via adrenaline, chemicals, God, money or sex. It's hard to describe and I'm sure it's some primal instinct to procreate or whatever, but again, nothing has ever given me these feelings before.

I have two daughters and I have made a lot of money over the years. I would trade all of that money for them in an instant.

My GF has a teenage boy and he's a great kid, far more mature than I ever was at that age. In my 20's, I would have thought of dating a gal with kids as a deal-breaker, but now that I'm older, I really enjoy it and love spending time with him as much as her. What you describe above is something I get to experience somewhat by proxy. I'm sure the blood-bond amplifies the experience, giving parents that great feeling of something that money can't buy.

 

[masaldana2]

great thread!

 

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[Mattie]

I would probably say having children is unique to the individual. No story is a like. In my case I enjoy having a son. There's pro's and con's. I feel he is a blessing and wanted to have a child. At the same time, I was a single mother living the Heroine's journey. I think your beliefs on the topic change over time. Today, I wouldn't have another child, not because I don't find children adorable, I just see the pain and suffering people in general go through. Fortunately, if you are the 2% of the world and make it to success, learn all the techniques to manage emotions, be mentally tough etc, you're lucky enough to figure out how to live life to the fullest, but there is no guarantee your children will find the same experience. And knowing things are passed generation to generation like belief systems, addictions, habits, abuse, etc. I'm not sure bringing more children in this world is the solution.

The world doesn't teach parents how to raise children in a healthy way, and most people aren't prepared or know how to cope when they enter relationships. Pain and pleasure and self-gratification is more important than having healthy relationships. It's wonderful if you happen to pull it off and create a healthy environment, and home, but I don't feel most people in the population do this whether they're rich or lower class.

 

[Learner Guy]

The original post made me think of a CS Lewis quote - paraphrasing, he said that kids can't imagine anything better than chocolate because they don't know yet about the sex impulse (he was making a bigger point of course).

I was once the 'I will not let kids get in the way of my enormous plans' guy. Then I grew up, had kids later than I would if I were living life over again, and now have got a real reason to put together a great business - the future generations.

People who consciously opt out of reproduction are choosing the ultimate in slow lane - the genetic dead end!

I realise many will hate this post, but hey, I wish I'd understood this a lot earlier myself.

 

[Learner Guy]

And if Elon can find time, so can we all.

 

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[Red]

People who consciously opt out of reproduction are choosing the ultimate in slow lane - the genetic dead end!

I fail to see the correlation in your "logic" here. Nobody bashed you for wanting children & choosing that life. Is there a reason you can't afford that same respect to people who have different beliefs/actions than you?

 

[DeletedUser396]

The original post made me think of a CS Lewis quote - paraphrasing, he said that kids can't imagine anything better than chocolate because they don't know yet about the sex impulse (he was making a bigger point of course).

I was once the 'I will not let kids get in the way of my enormous plans' guy. Then I grew up, had kids later than I would if I were living life over again, and now have got a real reason to put together a great business - the future generations.

People who consciously opt out of reproduction are choosing the ultimate in slow lane - the genetic dead end!

I realise many will hate this post, but hey, I wish I'd understood this a lot earlier myself.

Technology will eventually surpass biology.
You can either become immortal by leaving a legacy behind or create another unnecessary human.

And if Elon can find time, so can we all.

Who cares about Elon Musk?
Do what you want.

 

[SteveO]

I have three kids. All grown and going their own direction.

I was very involved with their lives. I raised them for a while as a single parent as I kept them after the separation. I worked full time, was head coach of their teams for more than 30 different seasons, continued to run and play softball.

I never catered to them. Watching other parents through all of the many years made me realize that most parents are far too involved with their kids. And I don't mean in a good way. Their kids are always the best and never wrong. Their kids should have nothing but the best experiences in all that they do. The list goes on.

It taught me that my kids are just humans like the rest of the world. I continue to love them very much but most special treatment went away.

They will tell you that I am the best father in the world (at least that is what they tell me. )

In hindsight, I think too many parents devote too much of their life to their children in the wrong way.

On the other topic, choosing not to have children does not make you any less of a person in any way.

 

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[jon.a]

I fail to see the correlation in your "logic" here. Nobody bashed you for wanting children & choosing that life. Is there a reason you can't afford that same respect to people who have different beliefs/actions than you?

Ego

 

[Learner Guy]

Not trying to be disrespectful, just to provoke some thought and discussion! It's a different perspective from some, and as I said it's been my journey and a source of some regret to me that I changed my views comparatively late.

I think the Fastlane / Slow lane / Dead end angle is very important - obviously 'dead end' was chosen to fit the metaphor and to be a bit provocative. It's all very well to be in the Fastlane, but where is the road leading? I'm not saying my life path is the only valid one, of course. I do know it's easy to be working hard (and in a Fastlane way in at least some respects) in what you later believe to have been the wrong direction.

Westerners may think technology is going to trump biology, but birth rates do matter in the big picture. Call me old-fashioned, but I like (some parts of) my culture and would like to contribute in some tiny ways to sustaining it - that used to be how 'everyone' saw the big picture, but the world is a really different place now. I have no idea how it will all play out in the end, but for the sake of my kids I hope things don't get ugly!

I don't care about Elon Musk at all one way or another, but he was a good example, cited by someone else in this thread, to provoke discussion about the 'children will suck my resources such that I cannot be successful' line (which I used to say more or less verbatim). Conversely, children are not essential to being productive. And some people are best not becoming parents, for various reasons.

Anyway, just my two cents - happy New Year everyone!

 

[SteveO]

I think the Fastlane / Slow lane / Dead end angle is very important - obviously 'dead end' was chosen to fit the metaphor and to be a bit provocative. It's all very well to be in the Fastlane, but where is the road leading? I'm not saying my life path is the only valid one, of course. I do know it's easy to be working hard (and in a Fastlane way in at least some respects) in what you later believe to have been the wrong direction.

Westerners may think technology is going to trump biology, but birth rates do matter in the big picture. Call me old-fashioned, but I like (some parts of) my culture and would like to contribute in some tiny ways to sustaining it - that used to be how 'everyone' saw the big picture, but the world is a really different place now. I have no idea how it will all play out in the end, but for the sake of my kids I hope things don't get ugly!

You are correct. We all have our own opinions.

Mine is that I will be gone from this world and will probably not give it much thought from there.

The way I see things is that I want to enjoy my experiences while here. It is not up to me how others enjoy theirs and I don't even really care. Others after me will figure their world out for themselves.

What is really in a legacy? It is a valid question but not one that I care about.

 

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[MTF]

On the topic of freedom and children... If you're 100% sure you don't want to have kids (like I do or @Red does, or @MJ DeMarco), vasectomy is one of the best freedom-providing investments you'll ever make in your life.

For the investment of up to $1,000 (it's usually cheaper than that), you protect yourself from losing at least $245,340, a lot of drama and countless hours doing something you've never wanted to do. Moreover your sex life will improve a lot, while your fears of having a kid by accident (or thanks to a crazy partner) will finally vanish. Where else can you get a better ROI? Haha.

Unfortunately ladies don't have it that easy with tubal ligation (it's an abdominal surgery, not just a simple 20-minute procedure like vasectomy is), but I guess that even in this case the increased peace of mind (plus reduced risk of ovarian cancer) is worth 1000x more than the money you'll spend on it.

 

[Learner Guy]

A vasectomy fails as a Fastlane investment, on scalability at least! I'm not going to get into the other aspects e.g. need

 

[jon.a]

A vasectomy fails as a Fastlane investment, on scalability at least! I'm not going to get into the other aspects e.g. need

Bullshit, @MTF was right! A vasectomy is one of the best possible defensive investment choices.

 

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[SteveO]

Bullshit, @MTF was right! A vasectomy is one of the best possible defensive investment choices.

Don't sugar coat your thoughts...

 

[Learner Guy]

Humor! Try investing in multiple vasectomies to increase your net worth by $244K a time

 

[jon.a]

Humor! Try investing in multiple vasectomies to increase your net worth by $244K a time

I understood that. My response was defense against gold-diggers. That point could be scaled.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Humor! Try investing in multiple vasectomies to increase your net worth by $244K a time

Try telling that to an athlete who is still paying for 10 baby mommas 10 years after retiring. I'm sure they regret not hearing about the vasectomy investment as they're standing before the bankruptcy judge.

 

[Learner Guy]

Ummm, that athlete only needed ONE vasectomy to prevent 1000 babies.

It's insurance - people don't get rich by getting multiple policies on their car, they do it once and they're covered against nasty happenings.

Anyway, have a great New Year all.

 

[SteveO]

Ummm, that athlete only needed ONE vasectomy to prevent 1000 babies.

It's insurance - people don't get rich by getting multiple policies on their car, they do it once and they're covered against nasty happenings.

Anyway, have a great New Year all.

Did you start celebrating early?

 

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[Learner Guy]

Timezone... I'm a dad, remember, so I had to be very restrained - no drunken typing

 

[Mineralogic]

Lots of great posts by everyone and very relevant. I'm not sure if this is just a personality trait ( perceived loss of freedom) thing but when you step back and look at the world, I would think the world and others here would want to encourage more liberty-minded/independent/successful people to have their own kids so the crucial DNA and teachings would be passed on not only for selfish reasons but for collective success reasons. Alas like many things in the world that have changed, at the very time we need more of these families perpetuated, is the same time resistance to it is highest. Meanwhile, tons of kids are being born in areas like 3rd world with little care for the future by the parents.

 

[Bouncing Soul]

People who have kids have been shown in multiple studies to live longer. Other studies also show them to be wealthier. Example- http://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/20121204/secret-longer-life-children

We can debate whether those reasons are good ones to have kids, but what I think is more important is this suggests kids actually improve your life when viewed over decades.

I think a lot of the perceived loss in freedom comes from who seems to own the voice in the media regarding "Lifestyle design" and kids.

Tim Ferriss, who if you listen to his blog, you know has a LOT of angst about this topic but seems to be living a life many believe they want which just happens to not include kids. (because as he has said on air in so many words, he is not monogamous and doesn't want to F*ck up his kids, among other reasons)
Feminist bloggers/writers- who it seems to me, are almost always 20-somethings who actually don't know lots of financially successful career women.
The mommy bloggers, and other GenX/millenial helicopter parents- who spend way too much, WAY TOO MUCH, time saying "it's all about the kids" (NO IT'S NOT, it's all about the family...this one drives me crazy) Often this mantra is offered as a sort of excuse for why the parent is not living their dreams.

The ancients who wrote about lifestyle design (philosophers, Bible, Koran, and as recently as the enlightenment folks etc) all emphasize family being central to everything.

Personally I know I've had some pretty dramatic internal shifts in my thinking and outlook following the birth of my kids. I wouldn't have said it before kids, but I will say now, I'd never have been nearly as complete a man without them.

 

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[DayIFly]

Technology will eventually surpass biology.
You can either become immortal by leaving a legacy behind or create another unnecessary human.

Don't make your kids be unnecessary. I am going out on a limb here, but you hopefully don't mean overpopulation? Because this doesn't apply to all of us. In some areas the birth rates are plummeting. And we want to leave the earth diverse, don't we?

I don't want to provoke anybody, but let's be real here for a moment. Most entrepreneurs won't leave any meaningful legacy behind. Yes, some will sell millions of products that will make the lives of others more comfortable and stimulate the economy a bit, but so what? Only a very, very tiny minority will fly us to Mars or invent cold fusion and the likes.

It's a personal decision of course and everybody can do as they like, but in my opinion some people overestimate themselves and have delusions of grandeur when there is none. I don't mean you personally with this because I don't know you; I hope you understand how I mean it.

I am so glad that Tesla's parents choose to have children, despite being geniuses themselves, for example.

Simply think about it. Our ancestors decided to have kids. Now we are here, thousands of years later, hundreds or even thousands of individuals later. For most people having kids means leaving a much larger legacy in the (very) long term.

And even if you leave a meaningful legacy, for whom do you leave it in the first place? After reading some threads on this forum about the lazy slowlaners who make stupid decisions, it seems to me that it's not for them directly or consciously.

I would want my children to have a say in how to use the things they'll inherit from us. And improve on it, of course. And maybe even make some things right after we've chosen the wrong path.

But ultimately, if someone doesn't need to leave a legacy and simply wants to live to the max until they die, then I respect that. Paying taxes will do it, I guess.

PS:
In regards to technology, I wouldn't hope for things like the singularity until it is realistically in reach. I don't like to hope for something in general. I think we are a lot nearer to projects like SENS anyways , which will stop ageing, but will remain biological nevertheless.

 

[DeletedUser396]

I don't want to provoke anybody, but let's be real here for a moment. Most entrepreneurs won't leave any meaningful legacy behind. Yes, some will sell millions of products that will make the lives of others more comfortable and stimulate the economy a bit, but so what? Only a very, very tiny minority will fly us to Mars or invent cold fusion and the likes.

True.

Your chances of success are directly proportional to your sex drive, just ask Mao Zedong or Genghis Khan.

One girl a day wasn't enough for them.

They wanted more.