Veganism / Plant-Based Diet

[Mineralogic]

That's not true. The mechanisms that show that vitamin B12 are necessary are documented extremely well. Vegans are quite literally walking around sick from various vitamin deficiencies, whether or not they run marathons and appear healthy.

That's the problem. Anecdotal evidence like pulling out an 80 year old marathon running vegan is NOT robust evidence. Controlled experiments in cell biology are.

the whole vegan argument collapses around B12 and also animal saturated fat/cholesterol

game over

 

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[Kelly C]

Just look at the fail rate of people who try veganism (and if they happen to be in the public limelight the subsequent death threats they get). Why do they end up going back to animal foods? In my own experience it is because I felt like utter utter crap after a few years of it - that is proof enough for me that my body needs animal food in some form. From reading others its been a similar thing. I wasn't eating utter shite either while vegan - never eaten utter shite...neither were these other people....yet they ultimately ended up feeling pretty rotten and went back to animal products.

You can certainly "survive" on a vegan diet...but just surviving absolutely sucks.

 

[ToniLene]

But the thing is, just like religion, you're never going to prove that "the cells in your body need animal sourced b12" no one is ever going to scientifically prove anything like this, because I'll always be able to drag in a vegan 80 year old 3 hour marathon runner who will invalidate your "proof" (given that good science doesn't have exceptions- for example apples don't sometimes fly up into the air - so the law of gravity remains scientifically proven.).
.

Your anecdote isn't proof of anything. We all know(based on scientific research) that smoking increases your risk of cancer, regardless of how many healthy 80 year old cigarette smokers you drag out. Just as research based evidence makes it clear that animal sourced b12 is essential for optimal health.

.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/1/131.long

Natural sources of vitamin B-12 (cobalamin) in the human diet are restricted to foods of animal origin (9), and persons who adopt a plant-based diet are known to be at risk of cobalamin deficiency (8, 10–12). Vitamin B-12 is an essential micronutrient that plays a fundamental role in cell division and in one-carbon metabolism (9–12). Chronic vitamin B-12 depletion (ie, prolonged low intake or intestinal malabsorption) results in a state of negative vitamin balance.

B12 in the diet
B12 is the only vitamin that contains a trace element (cobalt), which is why it’s called cobalamin. Cobalamin is produced in the gut of animals. It’s the only vitamin we can’t obtain from plants or sunlight. Plants don’t need B12 so they don’t store it. B12 is found exclusively in animal foods, such as liver, clams, oysters, mussels, fish eggs, octopus, fish, crab and lobster, beef, lamb, cheese and eggs

 

[csalvato]

That's not anything that you can prove. Maybe "some vegans" are sick, but so are "a lot" of non-vegans... the only thing being proven by your points is the pointlessness of the discussion.

You may as well come in here saying the earth is 6000 years old. If that's how you draw conclusions (and don't do any research in the way I outlined in my previous post), then there's no sense in discussing these matters with you.

 

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[Mineralogic]

Just look at the fail rate of people who try veganism (and if they happen to be in the public limelight the subsequent death threats they get). Why do they end up going back to animal foods? In my own experience it is because I felt like utter utter crap after a few years of it - that is proof enough for me that my body needs animal food in some form. From reading others its been a similar thing. I wasn't eating utter shite either while vegan - never eaten utter shite...neither were these other people....yet they ultimately ended up feeling pretty rotten and went back to animal products.

You can certainly "survive" on a vegan diet...but just surviving absolutely sucks.

Also, look at the anger levels of said vegans against non -vegans

they like to say eating meat makes you more aggressive but I don't know about that

also, if you wanted to dumb down or make people more passive, perhaps a vegan diet that then throws your b12 energy and cholesterol / T hormones off would be just the ticket

 

[CommonCents]

I welcome many more vegans.....means more meat for me!

 

[Jonleehacker]

Again coming back to my point in how much discussions about diets are just like discussions about religion and politics.

Why do you care if vegans are running around deficient in b12?

The problem, with this thread, and in the world in general, is that people create identities around things like diets, political affiliations and religion. Once we create an identity in our selves, then we need to attack those around us who don't support our identity.

The happiest people I know are little kids, they don't care a lick about what their best friends eat, or if what religion their friend's family follows.

Identities create separation and separation always will work to find reasons for more separation... thus the state of the world. IMHO having an identity about being vegan or paleo or being an anti-vegan or anti-paleo, despite whatever mountain of evidence you can stand on, is about the unhealthiest thing you can do to your body, your friendships and your world.

 

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[Mineralogic]

I welcome many more vegans.....means more meat for me!

that's how you spin a negative into a Positive! YEAH

 

[Mineralogic]

Again coming back to my point in how much discussions about diets are just like discussions about religion and politics.

Why do you care if vegans are running around deficient in b12?

The problem, with this thread, and in the world in general, is that people create identities around things like diets, political affiliations and religion. Once we create an identity in our selves, then we need to attack those around us who don't support our identity.

The happiest people I know are little kids, they don't care a lick about what their best friends eat, or if what religion their friend's family follows.

Identities create separation and separation always will work to find reasons for more separation... thus the state of the world. IMHO having an identity about being vegan or paleo or being an anti-vegan or anti-paleo, despite whatever mountain of evidence you can stand on, is about the unhealthiest thing you can do to your body, your friendships and your world.

its not about division, its about having a collectively healthy society because the stakes have been raised to the tune of trillions in a false medical/nutrition paradigm. There are tons of people running around every day, MILLIONS of them, deficient including these kids who are involved in shooting up schools. There are 90 essential nutrients that you really cannot guarantee you are getting in food everyday let alone personal, customizable issues. Stress BURNS vitamins as well.

meanwhile at least one nutrition hit piece comes out in the MEDIA every 2-3 months to capture SIDEWALKERS

 

[Jonleehacker]

its about having a collectively healthy society because the stakes have been raised to the tune of trillions in a false medical/nutrition paradigm.

So, as long as I follow your regime, me and everyone else in the world will be healthy? If only people were machines, that would work perfectly.

It's like saying everyone is going to be rich if we practice "xyz economics"

Not realistic, just more justification for creating us vs them policies and attitudes.

 

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[ToniLene]

Again coming back to my point in how much discussions about diets are just like discussions about religion and politics.

Why do you care if vegans are running around deficient in b12?

The problem, with this thread, and in the world in general, is that people create identities around things like diets, political affiliations and religion. Once we create an identity in our selves, then we need to attack those around us who don't support our identity.

The happiest people I know are little kids, they don't care a lick about what their best friends eat, or if what religion their friend's family follows.

Identities create separation and separation always will work to find reasons for more separation... thus the state of the world. IMHO having an identity about being vegan or paleo or being an anti-vegan or anti-paleo, despite whatever mountain of evidence you can stand on, is about the unhealthiest thing you can do to your body, your friendships and your world.

I'm just interested in the facts. I personally don't care how anyone eat/sleep/pray as long as you don't peddle it to me. Where I do have an issue is when people don't qualify their beliefs with actual facts/research before making a statement.

 

[Jonleehacker]

Where I do have an issue is when people don't qualify their beliefs with actual facts/research before making a statement.

But beliefs aren't arrived at rationally. EVERYONE, including you and me, have many beliefs that are completely irrational. The belief that you are presenting that, "fact-based beliefs and statements are the only ones that are valid" is really worth questioning

Any great discovery or invention has started by tossing out all the previously held beliefs that were really just limitations.

 

[ToniLene]

But beliefs aren't arrived at rationally. EVERYONE, including you and me, have many beliefs that are completely irrational. The belief that you are presenting that, "fact-based beliefs and statements are the only ones that are valid" is really worth questioning

Any great discovery or invention has started by tossing out all the previously held beliefs that were really just limitations.

You missed my point and yes, when you're discussing a serious topic, it's best to present facts.
If an opinion is based on facts, great. Yours was not.

 

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[csalvato]

Again coming back to my point in how much discussions about diets are just like discussions about religion and politics.

But beliefs aren't arrived at rationally.

Any great discovery or invention has started by tossing out all the previously held beliefs that were really just limitations.

There's way too much to address here because you really need to go through an entire mindset shift, and that's not really my responsibility. I am confident that if you take nutrition and diet seriously you will come around eventually (as most people tend to), but that day is not today.

Just some key points here:

• Diets and nutrition are NOT like religion because religion inherently requires faith. Politics do too, to an extent. People apply faith to diet because they don't like to research. They like to live with other people's opinions which are, when you get to the root, based on nothing of substance.
  
  
• Diets create identity, sure, but that's not what I am saying AT ALL. I don't associate myself with any diet because no diet is really right. They present benefits and drawbacks, and I recommend "Paleo" as a starting point upon which to begin experimenting with how your body personally responds. People who look at this as "paleo" vs. "veganism" vs." vegetarianism" vs. "blood type diet" or whatever are taking a shortcut by lumping people into bins. Often people are lumped into bins because it's easy to exercise strawman and ad hominem attacks (which are logical fallacies) to put an end to these conversations. It's not right.
  
  
• Here's why it's not right to do that: nutrition is based on cellular mechanisms and how they come together to create a functioning organism. When someone says that you can get by with all of your B12 from yeast, for example, this is incorrect, dangerous and wrong. It's akin to someone telling your friend that their car would run better if you poured water into the gas tank. If you hear someone say that to your friend you would run over and say "WTF Don't pour F*cking water in your gas tank idiot! That guy knows nothing about how cars run!".
  
  
• I don't care what you eat. But if you are going to tell people what to eat, you should have done some real solid research first on PRIMARY SOURCES - not what joe-blow-vegan's blog says. Unfortunately, vegans never do this because they can't. Once they start to do it, they run into all of the logical problems that have been addressed in this thread....and they quit.

 

[csalvato]

If an opinion is based on facts, great. Yours was not.

Perfect. That sums up this whole thread.

 

[Kelly C]

Again coming back to my point in how much discussions about diets are just like discussions about religion and politics.

Why do you care if vegans are running around deficient in b12?

I don't really understand why you have asked this question.

The problem, with this thread, and in the world in general, is that people create identities around things like diets, political affiliations and religion. Once we create an identity in our selves, then we need to attack those around us who don't support our identity.

The happiest people I know are little kids, they don't care a lick about what their best friends eat, or if what religion their friend's family follows.

Identities create separation and separation always will work to find reasons for more separation... thus the state of the world. IMHO having an identity about being vegan or paleo or being an anti-vegan or anti-paleo, despite whatever mountain of evidence you can stand on, is about the unhealthiest thing you can do to your body, your friendships and your world.

Most people also are like that too. I couldn't care less what my friend eats or what religion they are.

The only time in my life when I saw a real divide as a result of diet was when I was not eating animal products and not because of meat eaters but because of those not eating meat - "vegans". The online world really opens your eyes up to this. Vegans talking about ending their marriage because their Husband won't go vegan with them and they think their partner is "ethically wrong". People TELLING them that they shouldn't be with someone like that - treating their relationship in a very fickle and disposable way.

Creating an identity around diet is dangerous - it becomes very much like a cult. I have only seen this in relation to vegans....so in my experience its more obvious and prevalent in that style of diet.

But to be honest...it happens in a lot of things anyway....the online world definitely opens your eyes up to some very strange behaviour by some groups/types of people.

 

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[Jonleehacker]

There's way too much to address here because you really need to go through an entire mindset shift, and that's not really my responsibility. I am confident that if you take nutrition and diet seriously you will come around eventually (as most people tend to), but that day is not today.

Just some key points here:

• Diets and nutrition are NOT like religion because religion inherently requires faith. Politics do too, to an extent. People apply faith to diet because they don't like to research. They like to live with other people's opinions which are, when you get to the root, based on nothing of substance.
  
  
• Diets create identity, sure, but that's not what I am saying AT ALL. I don't associate myself with any diet because no diet is really right. They present benefits and drawbacks, and I recommend "Paleo" as a starting point upon which to begin experimenting with how your body personally responds. People who look at this as "paleo" vs. "veganism" vs." vegetarianism" vs. "blood type diet" or whatever are taking a shortcut by lumping people into bins. Often people are lumped into bins because it's easy to exercise strawman and ad hominem attacks (which are logical fallacies) to put an end to these conversations. It's not right.
  
  
• Here's why it's not right to do that: nutrition is based on cellular mechanisms and how they come together to create a functioning organism. When someone says that you can get by with all of your B12 from yeast, for example, this is incorrect, dangerous and wrong. It's akin to someone telling your friend that their car would run better if you poured water into the gas tank. If you hear someone say that to your friend you would run over and say "WTF Don't pour F*cking water in your gas tank idiot! That guy knows nothing about how cars run!".
  
  
• I don't care what you eat. But if you are going to tell people what to eat, you should have done some real solid research first on PRIMARY SOURCES - not what joe-blow-vegan's blog says. Unfortunately, vegans never do this because they can't. Once they start to do it, they run into all of the logical problems that have been addressed in this thread....and they quit.

You keep wanting to make this discussion with me about those ner-do-good dirty rotten vegans who've offended you by trying to get you to belief things that aren't supported by facts, and you're lumping me into that camp... which, given the lovely brandy-braised bacon rapped dates I had as an appetizer with last night's meal - is clearly unwarranted.

I'm really sorry that you've been so offended by the nasty vegan types.

My only point was ever that diets should be added to politics and religion as forbidden forum topics... the discussions always - as we are proving at this very moment - bring out divisiveness and go nowhere.

 

[Mineralogic]

You keep wanting to make this discussion with me about those ner-do-good dirty rotten vegans who've offended you by trying to get you to belief things that aren't supported by facts, and you're lumping me into that camp... which, given the lovely brandy-braised bacon rapped dates I had as an appetizer with last night's meal - is clearly unwarranted.

I'm really sorry that you've been so offended by the nasty vegan types.

My only point was ever that diets should be added to politics and religion as forbidden forum topics... the discussions always - as we are proving at this very moment - bring out divisiveness and go nowhere.

I think the fact you want diet/nutrition/lifestyle choice to be considered a forbidden topic as very divisive actually... thought police level.

thru reasoning and debate people COME together

in fact there were times in history where it was considered GREAT to lose a debate..it meant you LEARNED something and received value.

not anymore I guess

 

[BlakeIC]

i read some of the earlier parts of the thread

Something i want to ask the op

So all of us here are animals, now think about the undomesticated animals that eat other animals, is it wrong for them to do it? is it unhealthy for them to do it? they are going off of biological instinct to eat meat

So since we are also animals wouldnt make sense for it to be ok for us to eat meat?

 

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[AndrewNC]

That's not true. The mechanisms that show that vitamin B12 are necessary are documented extremely well. Vegans are quite literally walking around sick from various vitamin deficiencies, whether or not they run marathons and appear healthy.

That's the problem. Anecdotal evidence like pulling out an 80 year old marathon running vegan is NOT robust evidence. Controlled experiments in cell biology are.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/26/health/meat-causes-cancer-food-alternatives/

 

[ToniLene]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/26/health/meat-causes-cancer-food-alternatives/

Did you have an actual point/comment?

I'm not even going to discuss what WHO actually is because that would lead to a political debate. I will say, as I've stated previously that eating clean (meaning as few processed foods as possible) is most beneficial. The WHO report sreveals nothing of the general diet the study is based on.

I imagine if one is eating a lot of processed meats, they're also eating other highly processed foods, canned foods(BPA), refined sugars and other unhealthy edibles, so it's impossible(in my opinion) to narrow/correlate the cause of colorectal cancer to processed meat -though I'm sure it doesn't help.

Correlation is not causation, so I find the WHO report odd, but it is a good thing if it will decrease the amount of processed foods being eaten.

From your link :

(CNN)You may have just learned that processed meat such as bacon, sausage and ham may cause cancer and unprocessed meat may be "probably carcinogenic to humans," according to a new World Health Organization report. Or that cheese and sugar can be as addictive as a drug. Or that even veggie hot dogs may not be completely meat-free (or even human tissue-free), we recently learned.

http://www.iarc.fr/en/media-centre/pr/2015/pdfs/pr240_E.pdf
The experts concluded that each 50 gram portion of processed meat eaten daily increases the risk of colorectal cancer by 18%. “For an individual, the risk of developing colorectal cancer because of their consumption of processed meat remains small, but this risk increases with the amount of meat consumed,” says Dr Kurt Straif, Head of the IARC Monographs Programme. “In view of the large number of people who consume processed meat, the global impact on cancer incidence is of public health importance.”

 

[Mineralogic]

Did you have an actual point/comment?

I'm not even going to discuss what WHO actually is because that would lead to a political debate. I will say, as I've stated previously that eating clean (meaning as few processed foods as possible) is most beneficial. The WHO report sreveals nothing of the general diet the study is based on.

I imagine if one is eating a lot of processed meats, they're also eating other highly processed foods, canned foods(BPA), refined sugars and other unhealthy edibles, so it's impossible(in my opinion) to narrow/correlate the cause of colorectal cancer to processed meat -though I'm sure it doesn't help.

Correlation is not causation, so I find the WHO report odd, but it is a good thing if it will decrease the amount of processed foods being eaten.

From your link :

(CNN)You may have just learned that processed meat such as bacon, sausage and ham may cause cancer and unprocessed meat may be "probably carcinogenic to humans," according to a new World Health Organization report. Or that cheese and sugar can be as addictive as a drug. Or that even veggie hot dogs may not be completely meat-free (or even human tissue-free), we recently learned.

http://www.iarc.fr/en/media-centre/pr/2015/pdfs/pr240_E.pdf
The experts concluded that each 50 gram portion of processed meat eaten daily increases the risk of colorectal cancer by 18%. “For an individual, the risk of developing colorectal cancer because of their consumption of processed meat remains small, but this risk increases with the amount of meat consumed,” says Dr Kurt Straif, Head of the IARC Monographs Programme. “In view of the large number of people who consume processed meat, the global impact on cancer incidence is of public health importance.”

Several posts back i mentioned the hit pieces. Demonize meat by picking the filthiest most toxic versions to supposedly study

man they are really going to push vegan now...watch

 

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[AndrewNC]

Did you have an actual point/comment?

Nope - the main point was to push @csalvato 's buttons because we talk about this a lot

But my actual comment, I would what I would label as "Vegan-ish".

When I first discovered vegan culture in 2014- it was introduced from the animal rights perspective.

Imagine your are an alien that hovers over earth in a giant space ship. They see one species (humans) corral billions of other living beings into factories, murdering billions of living beings per year, and covering them in condiments to eat. All of this when we can survive off of plants. Yes, I do notice most vegans look frail...so read on.

This directs the conversation beyond the concept of self and towards the greater good of this planet as a whole.

What makes humans more important than other living beings?

With this Philosophy they follow - this explains why they get so angry at non-vegans. They view it the same exact thing as if you are taking billions of Asians, blacks, whites, etc per year and murdering them for food...when there are other food sources that can keep them alive.

That is how a lot of vegans view it.

And they do have a valid concern to start from, if you look at it from a bigger picture perspective that goes beyond self (which most people don't view things from).

i agree with a lot of this - with one reservation. I call it "the circle of life".

Is killing animals inherently wrong? This opinion comes from a more spiritual perspective which is beyond the realm of this thread alone.

Under my view - energy is transferred from one source to another and it forms the basis of keeping this planet going. But at the same time animals are treated horribly in slaughter houses.

I do my best to eat a "mostly" vegan diet - and The meat I do buy (for b12 and other health related concerns stated above) - I strive for it to be humanely treated/ free range/ more ethical.

But that's just me. My deeper belief is "whatever you believe fm be true, is true..in you reality) and in a million years, it doesn't really matter.

Kind of took the thread away from the health perspective because a lot of people (including myself up until last year) never viewed things from this perspective, and it's important to realize because this is how most vegans view it.

 

[Mineralogic]

Nope - the main point was to push @csalvato 's buttons because we talk about this a lot

But my actual comment, I would what I would label as "Vegan-ish".

When I first discovered vegan culture in 2014- it was introduced from the animal rights perspective.

Imagine your are an alien that hovers over earth in a giant space ship. They see one species (humans) corral billions of other living beings into factories, murdering billions of living beings per year, and covering them in condiments to eat. All of this when we can survive off of plants. Yes, I do notice most vegans look frail...so read on.

This directs the conversation beyond the concept of self and towards the greater good of this planet as a whole.

What makes humans more important than other living beings?

With this Philosophy they follow - this explains why they get so angry at non-vegans. They view it the same exact thing as if you are taking billions of Asians, blacks, whites, etc per year and murdering them for food...when there are other food sources that can keep them alive.

That is how a lot of vegans view it.

And they do have a valid concern to start from, if you look at it from a bigger picture perspective that goes beyond self (which most people don't view things from).

i agree with a lot of this - with one reservation. I call it "the circle of life".

Is killing animals inherently wrong? This opinion comes from a more spiritual perspective which is beyond the realm of this thread alone.

Under my view - energy is transferred from one source to another and it forms the basis of keeping this planet going. But at the same time animals are treated horribly in slaughter houses.

I do my best to eat a "mostly" vegan diet - and The meat I do buy (for b12 and other health related concerns stated above) - I strive for it to be humanely treated/ free range/ more ethical.

But that's just me. My deeper belief is "whatever you believe fm be true, is true..in you reality) and in a million years, it doesn't really matter.

Kind of took the thread away from the health perspective because a lot of people (including myself up until last year) never viewed things from this perspective, and it's important to realize because this is how most vegans view it.

It is a fair view to have and glad you moved beyond the narrow vegan view!

I would also wager most vegans are advocating a live plant diet yet do not realize consuming live or picked plants KILLs the plants as well. Seems so Basic and many vegans espouse new age ideals! Yet cannot see the destruction they cause by diet choice as well. We have covered with new research that it strongly leans torwards plants being alive or conscious in at least some definition or scope of reality.

The planet is an ecosystem of natural resources. The food chain and cycle of life is very real here

 

[AndrewNC]

It is a fair view to have and glad you moved beyond the narrow vegan view!

I would also wager most vegans are advocating a live plant diet yet do not realize consuming live or picked plants KILLs the plants as well. Seems so Basic and many vegans espouse new age ideals! Yet cannot see the destruction they cause by diet choice as well. We have covered with new research that it strongly leans torwards plants being alive or conscious in at least some definition or scope of reality.

The planet is an ecosystem of natural resources. The food chain and cycle of life is very real here

I actually posted before about a sunlight "diet". I wasn't completely trolling.

I've made friends with a man who said he's met countless people who travel to the Amazon to learn how to live off of prana energy (aka sunlight).

He said some people do it.

Others live off off of 200 calories a day from one green smoothie in the morning.

Some die trying.

I say this not to advocate a sunlight diet, or argue do its true or false, but to open up our minds and not immediately discount something because it's unfamiliar to us.

I plan on visiting one of these retreats, mainly as research for a future book, and see it for myself. That's the only way to know for sure. If not, it'll make a great story.

Myself, among many members of this forum who I'm friends with in person have experienced things that most people would label as crazy...and are beyond anything the mainstream thinks is possible.

I think it's obvious by now that I take "pushing my comfort zone" to the extreme. It's a fun journey to say the least

The one thing I learned, which is more relevant to anyone on this forum in business - if you search for something hard enough, you will find the answer, regardless of which side of the argument it is.

 

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[JustinBoshans]

There's way too much to address here because you really need to go through an entire mindset shift, and that's not really my responsibility. I am confident that if you take nutrition and diet seriously you will come around eventually (as most people tend to), but that day is not today.

• Here's why it's not right to do that: nutrition is based on cellular mechanisms and how they come together to create a functioning organism. When someone says that you can get by with all of your B12 from yeast, for example, this is incorrect, dangerous and wrong. It's akin to someone telling your friend that their car would run better if you poured water into the gas tank. If you hear someone say that to your friend you would run over and say "WTF Don't pour F*cking water in your gas tank idiot! That guy knows nothing about how cars run!".

I like to learn new things, so why is animal derived B12 necessary and why is B12 from plant sources inferior? What specifically happens when the body ingests B12 from animal products, that doesn't happen when it is consumed from plant sources.

 

[ToniLene]

I actually posted before about a sunlight "diet". I wasn't completely trolling.

I've made friends with a man who said he's met countless people who travel to the Amazon to learn how to live off of prana energy (aka sunlight).

He said some people do it.

Others live off off of 200 calories a day from one green smoothie in the morning.

Some die trying.

I say this not to advocate a sunlight diet, or argue do its true or false, but to open up our minds and not immediately discount something because it's unfamiliar to us.

I plan on visiting one of these retreats, mainly as research for a future book, and see it for myself. That's the only way to know for sure. If not, it'll make a great story.

Myself, among many members of this forum who I'm friends with in person have experienced things that most people would label as crazy...and are beyond anything the mainstream thinks is possible.

I think it's obvious by now that I take "pushing my comfort zone" to the extreme. It's a fun journey to say the least

The one thing I learned, which is more relevant to anyone on this forum in business - if you search for something hard enough, you will find the answer, regardless of which side of the argument it is.

Sure one could live off 200 calories a day, but why would you want to? It's called malnourishment and it takes a toll on your physical appearance and overall health.

You aren't saying anything unheard of. Yogis have practiced "no mind" and go without food and water for weeks or longer while in a meditative state. In my 20s I was "into" all things new age and doing all kinds of stuff that I won't even mention, so yes, I can appreciate unconventional experiences and lifestyles.

However, we're talking practicality here on this forum and becoming a yogi or living off of prana just doesn't appeal to me at this stage in life. A juicy burger and some homebrew on the other hand...



Far too many Euros & Americans head to the Amazon or other 'exotic' countries in an attempt to co-op indigenous traditions. Traditions which are often incompatible with your genetic make-up and will possibly kill you, if you're not careful. Every so often I hear about someone that traveled to a ayahuasca retreat in the Amazon and things did not end well.

What I really want to stress is that just because an indigenous culture can function at a certain level on a certain diet, it does not mean that everyone is capable of doing so. Genetics also plays a part in diet which I won't go into now because it's a lengthy topic.

 

[Mineralogic]

Sure one could live off 200 calories a day, but why would you want to? It's called malnourishment and it takes a toll on your physical appearance and overall health.

You aren't saying anything unheard of. Yogis have practiced "no mind" and go without food and water for weeks or longer while in a meditative state. In my 20s I was "into" all things new age and doing all kinds of stuff that I won't even mention, so yes, I can appreciate unconventional experiences and lifestyles.

However, we're talking practicality here on this forum and becoming a yogi or living off of prana just doesn't appeal to me at this stage in life. A juicy burger and some homebrew on the other hand...



Far too many Euros & Americans head to the Amazon or other 'exotic' countries in an attempt to co-op indigenous traditions. Traditions which are often incompatible with your genetic make-up and will possibly kill you, if you're not careful. Every so often I hear about someone that traveled to a ayahuasca retreat in the Amazon and things did not end well.

What I really want to stress is that just because an indigenous culture can function at a certain level on a certain diet, it does not mean that everyone is capable of doing so. Genetics also plays a part in diet which I won't go into now because it's a lengthy topic.

New book- the DMT diet

Drops the mic

 

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[csalvato]

I like to learn new things, so why is animal derived B12 necessary and why is B12 from plant sources inferior? What specifically happens when the body ingests B12 from animal products, that doesn't happen when it is consumed from plant sources.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0073316083/?tag=tff-amazonparser-20

Chapter 25.

There's really no way to easily digest this for someone who wants a TL;DR on how digestion works to assimilate micros and macros into the cells of the body.

In short, there are virtually no non-animal sources of vitamin B12 that can actually be absorbed into the body reliably. All of the identified vitamins (e.g. A, D, E, K, B complexes, etc.) are crucial to functions within the human body, and B12 is no exception. The damage caused by vitamin B12 deficiency is very serious and irreparable in most cases. In a nutshell, this damage includes degeneration of the nervous system. More info can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12#Deficiency

(As an aside, Vitamin B12 is one of the more complex vitamins because it is so important that the body keeps a robust reserve of it. That's why many vegans will "feel great" when first going vegan - because they are cleaning the terrible processed food out of their diet and have not yet hit the symptoms of B12 deficiency. Then, as the reserve depletes they start to feel like shit all the time. See @Kelly C's post for an example of this.)

So this leaves vegans with a conundrum. They NEED B12 to live, but animals are the source of 99.99999999% of B12. So a vegan needs to be discerning and make sure they are taking regular vitamin B12 supplements just to avoid terrifying irreparable damage to the nervous system.

To me, that hardly sounds like an ideal, natural and logical diet.

If that doesn't scare you away from veganism (which it should), then you may say, "Why can't I just eat those yeasts and only those yeasts and select few non-animal sources of B12?"

That's a great question! I am glad you asked.

Yes, there are yeasts and some select other non-animal sources, but they are very very few. This presents two problems:

1. These sources of Vitamin B12 are generally not used by the body very well.
2. They are so few and far between, you will be reliant on one or two far-from-acceptable species that produce vitamin B12....for the rest of your life. To reiterate, there is irreparable damage to your nervous system on the line.

So let's tackle the first point....

Not all vitamins are made equal. The source of the vitamin is just as important as the vitamin itself. For example, isolated ascorbic acid (the source of Vitamin C in Vitamin C tablets) is not absorbed or utilized in the body nearly as well as eating a pepper or orange with the same amount of vitamin C. It's almost as if you didn't eat a large portion of the vitamin C at all. To understand this, you need to understand the biochemistry of vitamins and how they are utilized in the body - something most people (even doctors and nutritionists) never truly delve into and understand. In short, when something is readily absorbed and used by the body it is said to be "bioavailable" or have a "high bioavailability".

Similar to ascorbic acid, non-animal B12 sources are not very bioavailable for several reasons that would take a whole chapter in a textbook to explain.

So, if you are willing to deal with that and risk being on a single source of B12 that has low bioavailability (again, bear in mind this experiment may leave you with irreparable nervous system damage), you have to also consider that a lack of variety in diet is typically a very bad thing. There are myriad reasons why having a high variety in diet yields a healthier organism, and these are very well documented across several species including humans. So to reconcile that with the fact that you need to live with very few sources of crappy vitamin B12 just makes no sense.

For any vegans, consider these points. Then take this info, and do some research on your own (because I can be wrong, after all). If, after that, veganism sounds good to you, that's on you. But I highly recommend you don't cut corners. Read the A&P textbook. Understand the biological processes.

If you say "Oh I don't have time for all that" I would ask you to consider that this information will not affect just your life, but the lives of future generations in your family - both due to epigenetic AND that your understanding will shape your children's understanding, as well.

The impact of having a high level understanding of your body is tremendous and transformative. I wouldn't take it lightly.

EDIT: One more note....even this relatively long post is an oversimplification of how nutrition works. It focuses just on B12, and not how B12 works together with other micros and macros available in meat that facilitate a healthier body. For example, folate, iron and zinc all work together in interesting ways in the gut and blood stream, especially when absorbed together from an animal source. But, like I said, it's impossible to delve into all of this in a single post.

 

[Mineralogic]

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0073316083/?tag=tff-amazonparser-20

Chapter 25.

There's really no way to easily digest this for someone who wants a TL;DR on how digestion works to assimilate micros and macros into the cells of the body.

In short, there are virtually no non-animal sources of vitamin B12 that can actually be absorbed into the body reliably. All of the identified vitamins (e.g. A, D, E, K, B complexes, etc.) are crucial to functions within the human body, and B12 is no exception. The damage caused by vitamin B12 deficiency is very serious and irreparable in most cases. In a nutshell, this damage includes degeneration of the nervous system. More info can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12#Deficiency

(As an aside, Vitamin B12 is one of the more complex vitamins because it is so important that the body keeps a robust reserve of it. That's why many vegans will "feel great" when first going vegan - because they are cleaning the terrible processed food out of their diet and have not yet hit the symptoms of B12 deficiency. Then, as the reserve depletes they start to feel like shit all the time. See @Kelly C's post for an example of this.)

So this leaves vegans with a conundrum. They NEED B12 to live, but animals are the source of 99.99999999% of B12. So a vegan needs to be discerning and make sure they are taking regular vitamin B12 supplements just to avoid terrifying irreparable damage to the nervous system.

To me, that hardly sounds like an ideal, natural and logical diet.

If that doesn't scare you away from veganism (which it should), then you may say, "Why can't I just eat those yeasts and only those yeasts and select few non-animal sources of B12?"

That's a great question! I am glad you asked.

Yes, there are yeasts and some select other non-animal sources, but they are very very few. This presents two problems:

1. These sources of Vitamin B12 are generally not used by the body very well.
2. They are so few and far between, you will be reliant on one or two far-from-acceptable species that produce vitamin B12....for the rest of your life. To reiterate, there is irreparable damage to your nervous system on the line.

So let's tackle the first point....

Not all vitamins are made equal. The source of the vitamin is just as important as the vitamin itself. For example, isolated ascorbic acid (the source of Vitamin C in Vitamin C tablets) is not absorbed or utilized in the body nearly as well as eating a pepper or orange with the same amount of vitamin C. It's almost as if you didn't eat a large portion of the vitamin C at all. To understand this, you need to understand the biochemistry of vitamins and how they are utilized in the body - something most people (even doctors and nutritionists) never truly delve into and understand. In short, when something is readily absorbed and used by the body it is said to be "bioavailable" or have a "high bioavailability".

Similar to ascorbic acid, non-animal B12 sources are not very bioavailable for several reasons that would take a whole chapter in a textbook to explain.

So, if you are willing to deal with that and risk being on a single source of B12 that has low bioavailability (again, bear in mind this experiment may leave you with irreparable nervous system damage), you have to also consider that a lack of variety in diet is typically a very bad thing. There are myriad reasons why having a high variety in diet yields a healthier organism, and these are very well documented across several species including humans. So to reconcile that with the fact that you need to live with very few sources of crappy vitamin B12 just makes no sense.

For any vegans, consider these points. Then take this info, and do some research on your own (because I can be wrong, after all). If, after that, veganism sounds good to you, that's on you. But I highly recommend you don't cut corners. Read the A&P textbook. Understand the biological processes.

If you say "Oh I don't have time for all that" I would ask you to consider that this information will not affect just your life, but the lives of future generations in your family - both due to epigenetic AND that your understanding will shape your children's understanding, as well.

The impact of having a high level understanding of your body is tremendous and transformative. I wouldn't take it lightly.

nice post! We got some smart readers for sure here!

Plus add in stress and gi tract which all affect what level of nutrient dosage you need and it becomes highly customizable. Then add in stomach acid variability and intrnsic factor declining as you age, (declining glutothione as you age)..its not worth it to avoid all meat. plus brain is made out of tons of cholesterol, omegas you get the point. All of this stuff is in meat and saturated fat and missing any key ingredient to your diet can magnify out to hormone issues as well!!