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Arun Siva

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GD&T Cylindricity Definition
In GD&T, cylindricity tolerance is used when cylindrical part features must have good circularity and straightness, like pins or camshafts. While circularity applies only to cross sections, cylindricity applies simultaneously to the entire surface. Since cylindricity is applied to an individual surface, this tolerance does not need to be related to a datum.

An example of cylindricity tolerance is shown below. In the top figure, a shaft has a cylindricity tolerance applied to it. The boxed symbols can be read “this surface must lie between two concentric cylinders spaced 0.2 apart”. The lower figure shows a sample part that meets this tolerance. Note that this tolerance requires verification in all three dimensions. Because cylindricity refines the form of a surface, it is treated like flatness in order to perform a tolerance stack.
 

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GD&T Perpendicularity Definition
In a mechanical part drawing, perpendicularity tolerance allows the designer to specify the degree to which the orientation of a right-angled part feature may vary. The perpendicularity symbol is often used on a drawing to ensure that mating features can be assembled. In most cases, the perpendicularity symbol is applied to a feature-of-size (FOS) with its base dimension. The tolerance zone is created perpendicular to the specified datum, and a part feature, axis, or center plane must lie within it.
 

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This is another less technical primer on Metrology. For those of you that are having parts manufactured in a machine shop or plastic molded parts, etc this may be of general usage of you as you get more and more familiar the creation of your respective products.

Intro to Coordinate Metrology
Understanding the CMM: The Coordinate System

We use a coordinate system to describe the movements of a measuring machine. The coordinate system, invented by the famous French philosopher and mathematician René Descartes in the early 1600s, lets us locate features relative to other features on workpieces.

A coordinate system is a lot like an elevation map where the combination of a letter along one edge of the map, a number along the other, and elevations shown throughout uniquely describes each location on the map. This letter/number/elevation combination is called a coordinate and represents a specific place relative to all others.

Another example is a street map with buildings shown. To walk to your hotel room at the Ritz Hotel from the train station (your origin), you walk 2 blocks along Elm street, 4 blocks on Maple and up 3 floors in the Ritz. This location can also be described by the coordinates 4-E-3 on the map, corresponding to the X, Y and Z axes on the machine. These coordinates uniquely describe your room and no other location on the map.

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A coordinate measuring machine (CMM) works in much the same way as your finger when it traces map coordinates; its three axes form the machine's coordinate system. Instead of a finger, the CMM uses a probe to measure points on a workpiece. Each point on the workpiece is unique to the machine's coordinate system. The CMM combines the measured points to form a feature that can now be related to all other features.

The Coordinate System: The Machine Coordinate System

There are two types of coordinate systems in the world of measurement. The first is called the Machine Coordinate System. Here, the X, Y, and Z axes refer to the machine’s motions. When viewed from the front of the machine, the X axis runs from left to right, the Y axis runs from front to back, and the Z axis runs up and down, vertically perpendicular to the other two.
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The Coordinate System: The Part Coordinate System

The second coordinate system is called the Part Coordinate System where the three axes relate to the datums or features of the workpiece.

Before the introduction of computer software to coordinate measurement, parts were physically aligned parallel to the machine’s axes so that the Machine and Part Coordinate Systems were parallel to one another. This was very time consuming and not very accurate. When the part was round or contoured, rather than square or rectangular, the measurement task was nearly impossible.
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The Coordinate System: What is Alignment?

With today's CMM software, the CMM measures the workpiece's datums (from the part print), establishes the Part Coordinate System, and mathematically relates it to the Machine Coordinate System.

The process of relating the two coordinate systems is called alignment. With a street map, we do this automatically by turning the map so that it is parallel to street (datum) or to a compass direction (i.e., north). When we do this, we're actually locating ourselves to the "world's coordinate system."
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What is a Datum?

A datum is a location. We use datums as guides to tell others where we are or as directions on how to get to places. On the map, the Ritz Hotel is a datum. So are streets, the train station, the museum and the restaurant. Thus, by using an origin, datums, directions and distances people have all the information they need to get from one location to another.

For example, to get from the train station (origin) to the restaurant, you walk 2 blocks north on Elm Street (datum), take a right, and walk 2 blocks east on Maple (datum).
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In metrology, a datum is a feature on a workpiece such as a hole, surface or slot. We measure a workpiece to determine the distance from one feature to another.
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What is Translation?

Suppose you need to know how far a specific feature of a workpiece is from another feature. Take, for example, the distance to the centers of each of four holes from a central hole. To do this you would first measure the central hole, translate the origin to the center of this hole, and then measure each of the four surrounding holes. Moving the starting point (origin) of the measurement from its present position to another place on the workpiece is called translation. The CMM does this mathematically when you request an alignment routine from its geometric measuring software.

In terms of our street map, once you arrive at your hotel and decide to eat at a legendary restaurant on your visit to the city, you need to find it on the map. The hotel now becomes your new starting point, or origin. By knowing your location, you can tell by looking at the map that you will have to travel two blocks west along Maple Street to reach the restaurant.
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What is Rotation?

Not all datums are at right angles to other datums. For example, looking at your street map, you see that the museum is located on a street that's neither parallel nor at right angles to the streets the hotel, restaurant and train station are on. Thus, to determine how far it is from the hotel to the museum, you have to first translate your key origin to the hotel and then rotate the key to be parallel to the street on which the museum is located. Now you can easily measure the distance from the museum to the hotel.
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The exact same procedure applies to the workpiece (Figure 10). The distance between the two holes on the workpiece can be measured once the original origin is translated to the smaller hole and the part coordinate system is mathematically rotated 45°. Now both of the holes lie along the new Y axis and the distance can be calculated automatically.
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Measured and Constructed Features

What’s the difference between measured and constructed features? The vast majority of workpieces are made up of simple geometric elements created by machining or forming. These primary elements (planes, edges, cylinders, spheres, cones, etc.) are called features. When a CMM can measure these features directly, by touching the surfaces that make up the feature with a probe, the features are referred to as measured features.

Other features, such as distance, symmetry, intersection, angle and projection, cannot be measured directly but must be constructed mathematically from measured features before their values can be determined. These are called constructed features. In Figure 11 the centerline circle is constructed from the center points of the four measured circles.


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Constructed Features

The relationships between one feature or group of features to another feature or group of features are critical to manufacturing. For example, the intersect point between the cylinders on one side of an engine block and those on the other side determines how well mating parts fit. This intersect point is constructed from the two measured features (the engine cylinders).
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What is Volumetric Compensation?

Although advanced manufacturing technology makes it possible to tolerance and make workpieces very precisely, imperfections still exist. Small as they may be, the fact that there are tolerances means that there are errors.

Coordinate measuring machines are no different from other products in this respect. While they are built to extremely tight tolerances, there are errors (roll, pitch, yaw, straightness, squarenesses and scale errors) in their structure that affect their accuracy. As manufacturing tolerances become increasingly tighter, it is necessary for CMMs to become more accurate.

The majority of the CMM's inaccuracies can be corrected automatically in the CMM’s computer. Once all of the geometric errors of the CMM are measured (called error mapping), they can be minimized or even eliminated by powerful algorithms in the CMM's software. This technique is called volumetric error compensation.

By eliminating errors mathematically, you lower the cost of manufacturing and provide the customer more performance for their money.

Volumetric compensation can be best understood in terms of the relationship between a map and a compass. If you want to sail to a particular location, you have to know its true direction from your current position (origin). A compass and a map are used to determine your direction, or bearing. There is, however, a difference between true north and magnetic north. The difference between the two is called variation and is caused by non-uniformity in the earth’s magnetic field. Thus, to determine the true direction from one point to another, the variation between true north and magnetic north must be added or subtracted from the compass bearing.

In the map shown, the difference between true north and magnetic north (3° W), must be compensated for or a sailor would end up northwest of the intended goal and would run aground before reaching the final destination.

A coordinate measuring machine does a similar compensation automatically to remove the variations of the machine from the measurement.
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Qualifying Probe Tips Probe Compensation

CMMs generally gather their data by touching the workpiece with a probe (either a solid probe or an electronic touch-trigger probe) attached the machine's measuring axis. Although the tip of the probe is very accurate, once the probe is attached to the CMM, the location of the tip to the machine's coordinate system must be determined prior to measuring. Since it's the tip's circumference that touches the part, the probe's center and radius are determined by measuring a very accurate sphere (requalification sphere).

Once the center and radius of the tip are known, when the probe contacts a workpiece, the coordinates of the tip are mathematically "offset" by the tip's radius to the tip's actual point of contact (Figure 14). The direction of the offset is automatically determined by the alignment procedure.

We do a similar procedure when we park a car. The better we can estimate our offset from the exterior of the car, the closer we can park it to the curb.
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Projections

A projection is the reproduction of a workpiece feature on another feature, such as projecting a circle or line onto a plane, or a point onto a line.

Projecting one part feature onto another can be compared with the creation of the traditional "flat" map of the world (Mercator projection). The flat map is made by projecting a globe of the world (sphere), onto a cylinder.
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In metrology, projections allow you to measure more accurately how mating parts will eventually fit together. In automotive cylinder measurements (e.g., engine blocks), by projecting a cylinder into the plane of the head face, you can accurately determine how the pistons will fit into the cylinder and how it will meet with the combustion chamber in the head.

A minimum number of three points is necessary to measure the diameter of a circle and, if those points are not at the same distance from the top of the bore, the measured diameter will be shown to be elliptical. To overcome this misrepresentation, the measurement data is projected into a plane that is perpendicular to the centerline of the cylinder. The result is an accurate determination of the real size of this workpiece feature.
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Using Effective Probe Techniques

By using effective probe techniques when inspecting a workpiece, you can eliminate many common causes of measurement error.

For example, probe measurements should be taken perpendicular to the workpiece surface whenever possible. Touch-trigger probes used on coordinate measuring machines are designed to give optimal results when the probe tip touches the workpiece perpendicular to the probe body. Ideally, you should take hits within ±20° of perpendicular to avoid skidding the probe tip. Skidding produces inconsistent, non-repeatable results.

Part Surface to be Probed

Note that the approach of the probe should be within ±20° of the perpendicular to minimize skidding error. The probe approach vectors are perpendicular to the surface of the sphere.
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Probe hits taken parallel to the probe body, that is, along the axis of the stylus, are not as repeatable as those taken perpendicular to the axis.
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Using Effective Probe Techniques

Probe hits that are neither perpendicular nor parallel to the probe body (Figure 19) produce results that are even less repeatable than those taken parallel to the probe body. You should avoid taking probe hits parallel to the stylus and at an angle to the probe body, since they will produce large errors.
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Shanking is another cause of measurement error (Figure 20). When the probe contacts the workpiece with the shank of the stylus and not the tip, the measuring system assumes the hit was taken in a normal manner and large errors will occur.

Using Effective Probe Techniques

You can reduce the likelihood of shanking by using a larger diameter tip to increase the clearance between the ball/stem and the workpiece surface. Generally, the larger the tip diameter, the deeper the stylus can go before it touches the work piece feature. This is called the effective working length of the probe (Figure 21). Also, the larger the tip, the less effect it has on the surface finish of the workpiece since the contact point is spread over a larger area of feature being measured. However, the largest tip that can be used is limited by the size of the smallest holes to be measured.
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Measurement points taken with an electronic probe are recorded when the stylus is deflected enough to either break mechanical contacts or generate enough force to trigger pressure-sensitive circuitry. The physical arrangement of the contacts causes slight errors in accuracy, although these are reduced during probe qualification. However, the longer the probe tip extension, the larger the pre-travel error and the more residual error is left after probe qualification. Longer probes are not as stiff as shorter ones. The more the stylus bends or deflects, the lower the accuracy. You should avoid using probes with very long stylus/extension combinations.
 

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Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing

Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing (GD&T) is a universal language of symbols, much like the international system of road signs that advise drivers how to navigate the roads. GD&T symbols allow a design engineer to precisely and logically describe part features in a way they can be accurately manufactured and inspected. GD&T is expressed in the feature control frame. The feature control frame is like a basic sentence that can be read from left to right. For example, the feature control frame illustrated would read: The 5 mm square shape (1) is controlled with an all-around (2) profile tolerance (3) of 0.05 mm (4), in relationship to primary datum A (5) and secondary datum B (6). The shape and tolerance determine the limits of production variability.
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There are seven shapes, called geometric elements, used to define a part and its features. The shapes are: point, line, plane, circle, cylinder, cone and sphere. There are also certain geometric characteristics that determine the condition of parts and the relationship of features.

These geometric symbols are similar to the symbols used on maps to indicate features, such as two and four lane highways, bridges, and airports. They are like the new international road signs seen more frequently on U.S. highways. The purpose of these symbols is to form a common language that everyone can understand.
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Geometric Characteristic Symbols (more details in posts above this one)

  • Straightness — A condition where all points are in a straight line, the tolerance specified by a zone formed by two parallel lines.
  • Flatness — All the points on a surface are in one plane, the tolerance specified by a zone formed by two parallel planes.
  • Roundness or Circularity — All the points on a surface are in a circle. The tolerance is specified by a zone bounded by two concentric circles.
  • Cylindricity — All the points of a surface of revolution are equidistant from a common axis. A cylindricity tolerance specifies a tolerance zone bounded by two concentric cylinders within which the surface must lie.
  • Profile — A tolerancing method of controlling irregular surfaces, lines, arcs, or normal planes. Profiles can be applied to individual line elements or the entire surface of a part. The profile tolerance specifies a uniform boundary along the true profile within which the elements of the surface must lie.
  • Angularity — The condition of a surface or axis at a specified angle (other than 90°) from a datum plane or axis. The tolerance zone is defined by two parallel planes at the specified basic angle from a datum plane or axis.
  • Perpendicularity — The condition of a surface or axis at a right angle to a datum plane or axis. Perpendicularity tolerance specifies one of the following: a zone defined by two planes perpendicular to a datum plane or axis, or a zone defined by two parallel planes perpendicular to the datum axis.
  • Parallelism — The condition of a surface or axis equidistant at all points from a datum plane or axis. Parallelism tolerance specifies one of the following: a zone defined by two planes or lines parallel to a datum plane or axis, or a cylindrical tolerance zone whose axis is parallel to a datum axis.
  • Concentricity — The axes of all cross sectional elements of a surface of revolution are common to the axis of the datum feature. Concentricity tolerance specifies a cylindrical tolerance zone whose axis coincides with the datum axis.
  • Position — A positional tolerance defines a zone in which the center axis or center plane is permitted to vary from true (theoretically exact) position. Basic dimensions establish the true position from datum features and between interrelated features. A positional tolerance is the total permissible variation in location of a feature about its exact location. For cylindrical features such as holes and outside diameters, the positional tolerance is generally the diameter of the tolerance zone in which the axis of the feature must lie. For features that are not round, such as slots and tabs, the positional tolerance is the total width of the tolerance zone in which the center plane of the feature must lie.
  • Circular Runout — Provides control of circular elements of a surface. The tolerance is applied independently at any circular measuring position as the part is rotated 360 degrees. A circular runout tolerance applied to surfaces constructed around a datum axis controls cumulative variations of circularity and coaxiality. When applied to surfaces constructed at right angles to the datum axis, it controls circular elements of a plane
  • Total Runout — Provides composite control of all surface elements. The tolerance applied simultaneously to circular and longitudinal elements as the part is rotated 360 degrees. Total runout controls cumulative variation of circularity, cylindricity, straightness, coaxiality, angularity, taper, and profile when it is applied to surfaces constructed around a datum axis. When it is applied to surfaces constructed at right angles to a datum axis, it controls cumulative variations of perpendicularity and flatness.
 

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Going beyond the initial collection of connected device or sensor data to derive actionable insights is essential in today’s highly competitive, digital business landscape. For example, in order to optimize operational efficiency, satisfy customer demand and maintain security, manufacturing organizations must continually monitor and understand all of the data their machines are constantly producing.

Depending on the specific vertical of a manufacturing organization, the specific use case for what can be done with machine data varies significantly. For many manufacturers, operational processes are tightly controlled, so leveraging machine data to gain insights is fairly straightforward. For those on the light industrial and the heavy industrial sides, however, processes are perpetually in-flux, making it difficult to do anything other than simply collect machine data.

Thankfully, there are tactics light and heavy industrial manufacturers can employ to put their unique breed of machine data to work. Consider these four best practices to improve operational efficiencies, reduce costly downtime and even implement predictive maintenance initiatives:
  1. Assess the data quality.
    As a first step, take a step back and ask, “Do we have enough data here to do anything meaningful?” Often, light and heavy industrial manufacturers only have a single source of data, such as a vibration sensor, or perhaps their machines are leased and therefore frequently changing location, providing little consistent data. Another common issue is not having existing datasets that indicate patterns of machine failure, as catastrophic machine failures usually occur so rarely.

    To make existing data more workable, try building out a wider dataset by incorporating additional, similar machines and looking at a shorter time period. In instances of single sensor sources, lean on subject matter experts to decipher patterns and define phases of machine cycles and performance for each. To establish a more robust picture of instances of machine failure, introduce a wider array of sensors or data sources. For instance, it might help to incorporate ERP data to better quantify outputs or leverage other machine data to build a bigger picture of a production line.
  2. Examine the data collection process.
    Once the quality of the data has been assessed, it’s time to analyze the data collection process and recognize any limitations it might produce. For example, for a light industrial agricultural manufacturer versus a heavy industrial steel manufacturer, data collection is going to look very different. It’s not cost effective to create a network of sensors to cover a 1,000-acre farm, so chances are they’ll need to rely on sensor stations and have tractors pass by to harvest data in a batch process manner. In a steel factory, however, machines are kept close together, so harvesting data is easier. There are other risks heavy industrial manufacturers will need to consider, such as network bandwidth limitations, security breaches, or general interference from the metal on the factory floor.
  3. Determine the data consistency and velocity.
    In conjunction with examining the data collection process and any complications it might introduce, it’s important to recognize the speed and quality at which data is being processed. For instance, in scenarios where data is being pulled in from different locations, the data quality will likely be highly inconsistent. Consider the light industrial agricultural manufacturer example: their data is unusable for roughly half the year due to the seasonality of their business. And because the business cycle for a farm is measured in months, it will require years of data collection to build a sufficiently full picture. For heavy industrial manufacturers, however, the data velocity will likely be higher, and depending on the specific vertical of heavy manufacturing, the data consistency could be fairly reliable.
  4. Confirm the data value.
    One of the most important steps in preparing to leverage machine data is confirming its value. More data is not always better, especially considering the cost of acquiring and storing large amounts of data. For example, a well failure in an oil field and unplanned downtime with a CNC machine are going to produce very different economic impacts. A CNC machine may be generating thousands of data readings per second, with a downtime event only resulting in $5-10K in costs, while an oil field well may be generating a fraction of that data (say, 5-10 readings every few minutes), with a downtime event costing upwards of $250K per hour. An economic case can be made for both situations. However, using data to anticipate any future outages of the oil field well is clearly the more cost-effective scenario.
No matter the data’s source(s), collection process, consistency or value, there’s a path forward for both light and heavy industrial manufacturers that seek to make their existing machine data actionable. The key is recognizing the data’s variables, rather than just blindly capturing all data and expecting instantly productive insights. Work to define specific use cases for your data, and lean on any available subject matter experts in your organization to identify the most promising datasets and patterns. In doing so, manufacturers can obtain a more realistic and full view of their machine data, and apply that intelligence to improve their business operations in a scalable, cost-effective manner.
 

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Just finished reading through this.
Thank you for the thread and I appreciate it being on the outside.

The main point I've garnered through my reading is to take the initial manufacturing process very seriously. The more hard work put into the process up front will bear the fruits of having lesser and smaller problems to deal with later.

Also, are you able to provide a link to the third-party articles that you use? (They are pretty easy to find with a search engine but I still think that it would be good to source them).
 

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Hey, great post, I am in the process of importing 2500 units of a electronic product, production has finished, we have had 6 units sent to us to test and 3 out of the 6 units have broken / are faulty.

How should I resolve this with the factory in China? Do I get them to rework, I have no way to test every pair for a good amount of time to ensure the quality, any ideas?

The pre production samples were perfect and had no issues.
 

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Hey, great post, I am in the process of importing 2500 units of a electronic product, production has finished, we have had 6 units sent to us to test and 3 out of the 6 units have broken / are faulty.

How should I resolve this with the factory in China? Do I get them to rework, I have no way to test every pair for a good amount of time to ensure the quality, any ideas?

The pre production samples were perfect and had no issues.

Please send me a PM
 

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Hi Arun Siva and fellow Fastlaners,

I'm pretty new to this forum and just discovered this fantastic thread as I'm looking for potential pain points and unmet needs, especially of people who purchase from Chinese vendors or otherwise have business dealings with Chinese companies. I'm specifically looking for such unmet needs from a legal angle due to my professional background (I'm an in-house attorney at a multinational in Taiwan). I'm also bilingual (English/Mandarin) and was wondering if I could use my skills to create a service or product that would be of value to people or companies in the West doing business with Chinese companies.

(Btw, please let me know in case it is more appropriate to open my own thread instead of posting here.)

My questions to you and other veterans who have experience with business dealings and negotiations with Chinese vendors would be:

1. What are your specific pain points or needs, if any, when it comes to communicating in English with your Chinese vendors (is the language barrier a real problem)? Would it make sense, in your view, to use standard letters or documents (such as POs, RFQ, etc) in English attached with a reliable Chinese translation just as a back-up to avoid miscommunications? Or is this never an issue?

2. Do you ever actually enter contracts with the Chinese side and if so, what kind of contracts would that be in your biz? Would these contracts be signed in English or Chinese or both? What are common problems you encounter wrt contracts? (A friend of mine who used to be a garment manufacturer in China before he retired told me he never used any contracts with his mostly US buyers at all, so I'm wondering if this is true in general or just in his particular line of business).

3. Would you see any value in having (customizable) drafts of contracts, baseline agreements, Terms & Conditions, clauses, letters or forms (or any other legal documents) available to you in English, attached with a reliable Chinese translation that has been reviewed and approved by a local Chinese lawyer as conforming with local laws?

These are my basic questions so far as I'm still in the "chasing needs" phase and wondering if I should take this further or not.

In case there exists such a need, I'd be willing to invest some time in creating some of those generic documents mentioned above, based on your input, and also provide Chinese translations and share them here at no cost.

I look forward to your feedback. Thanks a lot in advance!
 

amp0193

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Hi Arun Siva and fellow Fastlaners,

I'm pretty new to this forum and just discovered this fantastic thread as I'm looking for potential pain points and unmet needs, especially of people who purchase from Chinese vendors or otherwise have business dealings with Chinese companies. I'm specifically looking for such unmet needs from a legal angle due to my professional background (I'm an in-house attorney at a multinational in Taiwan). I'm also bilingual (English/Mandarin) and was wondering if I could use my skills to create a service or product that would be of value to people or companies in the West doing business with Chinese companies.

(Btw, please let me know in case it is more appropriate to open my own thread instead of posting here.)

My questions to you and other veterans who have experience with business dealings and negotiations with Chinese vendors would be:

1. What are your specific pain points or needs, if any, when it comes to communicating in English with your Chinese vendors (is the language barrier a real problem)? Would it make sense, in your view, to use standard letters or documents (such as POs, RFQ, etc) in English attached with a reliable Chinese translation just as a back-up to avoid miscommunications? Or is this never an issue?

2. Do you ever actually enter contracts with the Chinese side and if so, what kind of contracts would that be in your biz? Would these contracts be signed in English or Chinese or both? What are common problems you encounter wrt contracts? (A friend of mine who used to be a garment manufacturer in China before he retired told me he never used any contracts with his mostly US buyers at all, so I'm wondering if this is true in general or just in his particular line of business).

3. Would you see any value in having (customizable) drafts of contracts, baseline agreements, Terms & Conditions, clauses, letters or forms (or any other legal documents) available to you in English, attached with a reliable Chinese translation that has been reviewed and approved by a local Chinese lawyer as conforming with local laws?

These are my basic questions so far as I'm still in the "chasing needs" phase and wondering if I should take this further or not.

In case there exists such a need, I'd be willing to invest some time in creating some of those generic documents mentioned above, based on your input, and also provide Chinese translations and share them here at no cost.

I look forward to your feedback. Thanks a lot in advance!

This is kind of off-topic to the thread.

I think you should copy/paste this into a new post. You'll probably get more people seeing it that way.

FWIW, I think there's a lot of value in this idea. I think you're onto something.
 

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Overdrive

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amp0193, thanks a lot for your feedback. Much appreciated! And sorry for the off-topic post. I think I will start a new thread of my own, as per your suggestion.
 

Arun Siva

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amp0193, thanks a lot for your feedback. Much appreciated! And sorry for the off-topic post. I think I will start a new thread of my own, as per your suggestion.
feel free to PM me with specific questions. Id be glad to help anyway
 

Arun Siva

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A good pdf on DFM analysis and what to expect for small or large scale manufacturing.
 

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Here is a good video for people to get an in depth overall understanding on PIM. From an engineering perspective.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMjtmsr3CqA



I am contemplating doing a series of videos on quality analysis and what to look for but was wondering what people thought about it firsthand. I am sure it would be of great help for sourcers and manufacturers in general.
 

Arun Siva

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Wanted to bump this thread because I wanted to point out that @amp0193 @B. Cole are slaying it. I am proud to help them and proud that they are absorbing all of the intricacies (despite being the holidays and going through hell and back) of manufacturing and product sourcing. This was not meant to be easy but I have full confidence in them because of their attention to detail and work ethic (respectively).

The main idea i would like for anyone to understand is the importance of what is at stake (when you are first starting out). The factories in the east are a different breed. You need to compel them from the getgo (especially the best factories and manufacturers) that you ARE the real deal and that you mean business and actually know what the F*** you are talking about. Big props to @B. Cole especially because he is dealing with certain suppliers that cant even speak english! There are no excuses because NUMBERS are universal language. Processes and images (which clearly the yesteryear idiom a picture is worth 1000 words cant be truer) are your best friend. Prints and CAD markups with less text and more numbers can work wonders if time is scarce... Generally speaking you want to make sure you have checks and balances put in place to avoid any nonsensical issues in the future. All of this legwork is a must and believe not just me but @amp0193 and @B. Cole (their experiences truly).

Hope everyone is having a good easter holidays.
 

Arun Siva

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AFter a couple of hard nosed negotiations this month, I think that this is something that EVERYONE can take home to the table and reflect on when dealing with whomever it is that you deal with. What I have found will work for all situations and scenarios.

I FORESAW IT

I = Interests
F = Factual and Financial research
O = Options
R = Rapport, reactions and responses
E = Empathy and Ethics
S = Settin and Scheduling
A = Alternatives to agreement
W = Who
I = Independent Criterion
T = Topics, Targets and Tradeoffs

I FORESAW IT sums up many of the key factors which a negotiator needs to consider in preparing for a negotiation. In essence, the mnemonic asks you to do six things: (1) consider what you each really want and why, (2) learn as much as possible about the situation, (3) think creatively, (4) empathize, (5) develop alternatives to agreement, and (6) identify your targets and priorities.

Interests- Yours, mine.... OURS. Beyond our respective demands, why do we each want what we say we want? Rank the answers in order of importance. Include intangible interests such as face-saving. Don’t skimp on common interests (that is, shared goals you can achieve by working together)- expert negotiators spend far more time on this than average negotiators do.

Factual Research- Knowledge counts. What are the market prices? What do the relevant documents say? What do industry experts say? What published information is there about the matter? The other person? What is the history of the relationship? What are the cultural norms?

The legal constraints? What does spreadsheet analysis reveal? How is the other person’s organization set up? Err on the side of exhaustive learning.

Options- Brainstorm possible deal terms. That is, think of as many negotiable solutions to the problem as possible, even if they seem silly. Think of solutions that might satisfy each side’s interests. Get help from a trusted friend or colleague. Don’t critique until you’ve generated at least six for each topic you wish to discuss. Excellent negotiators generate twice as many options as average negotiators do. Then review and refine your options and select the one(s) you feel would be your first preference.

Reactions and Responses- Do this last. Once you develop offer(s) using the rest of the mnemonic, practice proposing your offer(s) to the other negotiator and try predicting her reactions to your proposal and to the situation generally. What will she feel she’ll lose if she says “yes,” and gain if she says “no”? Then consider how you might respond. Consider her interests- how will she satisfy her interests by saying “yes” and hurt them by saying “no”? Are there Independent criteria you can use to show the proposal is fair? Role playing can produce real surprises and insights.

Empathy and Ethics- Empathize. Put yourself in the other person’s shoes. Speak or write a paragraph in his voice about the situation. What problem does he have? Why do you seem difficult? What hang ups are you bringing to the negotiation? How would you like to be treated if you were in his place? If you are working with someone from another culture, try learning about her culture and her history. Empathizing is perhaps the hardest and most important task. A related concern is the ethical and spiritual dimension. What likely ethical dilemmas will you face? How will you deal with them? What limits will you set? It may help (perhaps in ways that have nothing to do with money) to pray for wisdom, patience, strength, and understanding. It may also help to pray for the other person (especially if relations are strained).

Setting and Scheduling- (a) Where will you negotiate? By phone? By letter? In person? Where are you each more comfortable? If you meet, where? Your place? Theirs? A neutral place? Why? Will you meet in private or in public? (Negotiating in the public eye often makes it harder for each negotiator to make concessions without losing face.) Have a change of setting in mind in case you reach an impasse- often this can help change the result. Palestinian and Israeli negotiators reached agreement in 1993 in part by meeting secretly in a Norwegian diplomat’s living room where food was served and children were running around. Will you meet via phone? Email? (Phone negotiations tend to fail more than face to face do; email negotiations tend to fail even more.) (b) When will you negotiate? Before something else happens? After? Why? Timing can be crucial. If there are several parties, with whom will you meet first? Then whom? What time of day will you negotiate? (If possible, avoid negotiating when you are tired.)

Alternatives to Agreement- If there’s no deal, what will you do instead? What will she? List the different possible alternatives separately for each side. For example, if you’re negotiating to buy my car and we can’t agree, what exactly will you do instead? Take the bus? Buy a new car you saw at the local dealership yesterday? Try to improve your alternatives with research. Rank yours; which is your best alternative?

Your worst? Rank hers. Which is her best? Her worst? (If she says “no,” she may be running the risk of winding up with her worst alternative. Tactfully noting this risk may encourage her to say yes.) Alternatives matter. All the negotiating technique in the world won’t matter if the other person has a great offer from someone else and you need her business desperately.

Who- Who can influence the outcome of the talks? Who will you deal with? Is there someone else who would be better to deal with instead? Is there someone you might deal with if you reach an impasse? (e.g. managers often have much more latitude than clerks). Who do you each answer to? What do they want? Who else should you involve in the process? Should you use agents? Mediators? Who else may influence the negotiations? Spouses? Customers? Name them. Learn as much as you appropriately can about them. Also, are there coalitions you can form? Other coalitions you need to block? If several people are involved (say, a board of directors or a work team), is there a likely ally whom you should talk to first?

Independent Criteria- What objective standards can you appeal to so the other person feels your offer is fair and reasonable? Look for something the other person is likely to trust that’s out of your control: appraisals, ratings, reports, industry statements about standards and practices, verifiable precedent, existing contract terms, or a fair decision rule such as ‘I cut/you choose’. Independent criteria let you say, in effect, “don’t take my word for it; let’s turn to something we both trust.” They are far more persuasive than saying, “well, I think I’m making you a very fair offer.”

Topics, Targets, and Tradeoffs- This last letter is where you turn your preparation work into a focused one page guide to the talks. In essence, you set an agenda, develop goals for each, prioritize, and add some promising creative options. Here’s how:

(a) Topics. Write down the topics you’ll talk about (such as salary, hours, vacation time). Look beyond the obvious for hidden topics worth discussing (such as start date).

(b) Targets. For each topic, set two targets- the outcome you’d like best (your top target) and least (your walkaway target). (For example- “Salary: 50K – 40K”). Your top target should be ambitious but realistic, based on your factual research into market values and the other person’s alternatives. Your walkaway target should be fairly firm and roughly equal to the value of your best Alternative to a negotiated agreement.

(c) Tradeoffs. (1) Look for tradeoffs between topics by ranking topics. Which matters most to you? Would you give up lots of X if you could have lots of Y? Ranking topics is particularly valuable when there are lots of them. (2) Look for tradeoffs within a single topic- that is, look for creative options that would really satisfy you both for that topic. Review the list Options you created earlier select the options you’d accept or offer.
 

Arun Siva

aspiring 大君 of the bourgeoisie
Read Millionaire Fastlane
I've Read UNSCRIPTED
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Aug 31, 2016
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Anyone wishing to obtain insight or knowledge into their ventures please feel free to PM me at anytime. My network has doubled especially in Asia and Middle East (for raw materials sourcing and production).
 

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