Mental Health, Depression, ADD Discussion Thread

[Elif]

This should be promoted on social media to awareness of people dealing with mental disorders.

 

[ChrisV]

I have a hard time turning my brain off.

There is usually one more task, one more thing to do, and once that is done there is always one more improvement I can make to x,y,z.

There is so much that I want to do.

Have you tried Meditation? Also Eckhart Tolle’s Power of Now and A New Earth is all about this.

Not to be able to stop thinking is a dreadful affliction, but we don't realize this because almost everybody is suffering from it, so it is considered normal. This incessant mental noise prevents you from finding that realm of inner stillness that is inseparable from Being. It also creates a false mind-made self that casts a shadow of fear and suffering.

The compulsive thinker, which means almost everyone, lives in a state of apparent separateness, in an insanely complex world of continuous problems and conflict, a world that reflects the ever-increasing fragmentation of the mind. Enlightenment is a state of wholeness, of being "at one" and therefore at peace.

Thinking has become a disease. Disease happens when things get out of balance. For example, there is nothing wrong with cells dividing and multiplying in the body, but when this process continues in disregard of the total organism, cells proliferate and we have disease.

Note: The mind is a superb instrument if used rightly. Used wrongly, however, it becomes very destructive. To put it more accurately, it is not so much that you use your mind wrongly - you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease. You believe that you are your mind. This is the delusion. The instrument has taken you over​

 

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[Mattie]

I think loneliness is one of the biggest factors.

I think this is a huge issue in our society. There are no cultural barriers, or social status barriers. Individualistic societies tend to be more focused on self. When everything becomes about self, this tends to rub off in society, were we tend to be more self-absorbed. Loneliness can be managed to a certain extent, but still people need human interaction with others, and build reliable friendships, marriage partners, and relationships in a work environment. When you lack support in life from others, is when people kind of drop down in low arousal. The unpredictable relationships which remain for a short-time, and have no emotional and mental investment in your life.

Suicide can be quite deeper than loneliness. Usually catastrophic thinking, black and white thinking, over thinking, and some kind of traumatic experience that one is dwelling on to a certain extent. Perhaps how one perceives events. Helplessness. Feeling trapped. No way out. Usually lack problem solving skills or coping skills. although you have some people who do have those skills, and they may have made a bad choice. It's kind of hard to get inside the mind of everyone to know exactly what their personal pain and suffering is in the moment when they get that deep and dark in their psyche.

 

[Tourmaline]

@LuckyPup lol I love your avatar.

Do you really think so?

I think more people are waking up than ever before, and there is more accountability too.

 

[j0elsuf]

Just joined the community and this is my very first post, but I have a theory that there is a connection between mental health and wealth in that people who struggle with mental health act out at the expense of their wealth and other areas of their lives.

I'm a great example. Preventing myself from ending my own life has been a lifelong "career" for me starting in high school and it was performed at the expense of my financial life and most other areas of my life. And now here I am, 38 and 1/2 years old with over $100k in debt with an overdrawn bank account from a job offer scam to show for it.

So yeah, talking about mental health is important. And most who have mental health issues feel like me, trapped with no way out, looking frantically for answers while taking zero action because they never know if they are doing anything right. This is how I feel currently. The job offer scam was just the icing on the cake.

And it isn't like these "counselors" that I see help much. Most of the ones who I've seen are just interns who just prescribe antidepressants (which often make things worse; I was at such a low point about a decade ago that I was prescribed wellbutrin and I was getting seizures from double-dosing).

Let this be a message to anyone who is thinking of taking antidepressants: Just say no. I'm serious, antidepressants should be outlawed.

This kind of created an idea for a business called "underground counseling" that gets rid of all the jargon we see in mental health and just plain helps people who don't feel good mentally. Some of us just want the pain to go away and want good strategies to help the pain go away forever because to people like me, managing mental health is a 128 hour a week job with no vacation.

To put things in perspective, I have no diagnosed mental disorders but I have dealt with heaps of trauma: Sexually assaulted twice (and I'm a dude too, good luck finding sexual assault resources/support if you are a dude), raised in a broken home, witnessed my dad die of cancer before my very eyes about a year before turning 25. Used to cut in high school, acted out my suicidal and homicidal ideation by being on incel communities (before they became incel communities)

It's no wonder I am still stuck on the sidewalk pushing 40. I'm just lucky that I'm alive because I think about death and ending my own life way more than I would like. Granted I don't think about it daily like in my 20s, but it still comes up from time to time.

The thoughts "I just want one thing to go right today" and "I just want to make the pain stop" are pretty common for me even now, although again it isn't as bad as when I was in my 20s and early 30s.

 

[j0elsuf]

"I have come to hate the terms mental illness and psychiatric disorders, and you should too. They place emphasis in the wrong domain (the mind or the psyche), when our imaging work teaches us that we must first focus on the brain. “Mental illness” and “psychiatric disorders” conjure up stigmatizing images of lunacy in people who are mad, disturbed, unbalanced, or unstable, even though these adjectives apply to an extremely small percentage of people who struggle with brain health/mental health issues."

So true. Gonna quote this in the stuff I write.

 

[missinfinity98]

For me lately one of the best things for mental health was a meme page twisting around the patriarchate reality in a joking way. It was so soothing to read "The Matriarchat Grandmothers Committee decided: vasectomy has to be done with all stray men, meaning widowers and unmarried still guarded by mothers or sisters. Nobody knows why it caused mass protests among the men... ". Half an hour on this page instantly took anxiety and stomach pain away. I wish I was joking

Robin Thicke Blurred Lines Sexy Boys Parody by Mod Carousel

Mod Carousel, a Seattle based boylesque troupe, does a sexy parody of Robin Thicke's Blurred Lines music video.

www.metatube.com

 

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[Andreas Thiel]

For me lately one of the best things for mental health was a meme page twisting around the patriarchate reality in a joking way. It was so soothing to read "The Matriarchat Grandmothers Committee decided: vasectomy has to be done with all stray men, meaning widowers and unmarried still guarded by mothers or sisters. Nobody knows why it caused mass protests among the men... ". Half an hour on this page instantly took anxiety and stomach pain away. I wish I was joking

Robin Thicke Blurred Lines Sexy Boys Parody by Mod Carousel

Mod Carousel, a Seattle based boylesque troupe, does a sexy parody of Robin Thicke's Blurred Lines music video.

www.metatube.com

Yeah that sounds like healthy reading material

 

[fridge]

I don't know... mental health is a thing for sure, but who shall we trust on it? OCD, PTSD, bipolar, etc. these are just labels. There is no definitive way to judge if you have these conditions or not. They are man-made, invented designations, there is very little physical proof that these are actual disorders at all.

And from what I've noticed, thinking you have such a disorder is more unhelpful, than helpful.

I'm not sure if therapy has any value, beyond keeping some alive, or keeping them "stable".

Psychologists and psychiatrists have no interest to make you into big-hitters, industry-disruptive juggernauts. That's risky, who knows what may happen. Their goal is just to make you STABLE - meaning that you fit into society, and stay in your place, don't cause any trouble. In other words, their job is to make sure you swallow the SCRIPT, and live in accordance with it. They are the guards of the system...

It's funny, but the new Matrix movies portrays exactly this... the Analyst was the ultimate guard of the system... he was the protector of the script. And "mental health" was exactly the chain he used to do it.

Where are the patients who have OCD, and gone to therapy, and are now 100% FREE of OCD as a result of going to therapy, not reliant on pills, not reliant on anything? I don't see them anywhere. I don't see psychologists producing a superman. Nowhere... and I repeat, I haven't seen a single psychologist who can brag about doing something more than "reintegrating their patients into society".

If the bar is reintegrating people into society, that's awfully low.

Where are the psychologists that turn depressed, anxious, OCD, bipolar people and make them into peak performers? I'm asking honestly... I want to know where those guys are.

Even if you look at people like Jordan Peterson, you'll see that the guy's psychology was of little use to him. He ended up needing to resort to drugs to handle his wife's cancer. And yeah, that's tough, for sure, but people have been going through family tragedies for aeons... without any drugs. To me, it seems indicative of the failure of his mindset and psychological system that he had to rely on drugs to combat his anxiety. He couldn't control it otherwise.


There is no proof at all that differences in brain activity are CAUSATIVE as opposed to CORRELATES. Of course if I'm using my mind differently than others, then there will be some differences that you can notice if you scan my brain. Of course! But it's a HUGE leap to say that this is proof that the neural correlates of those conditions are causative of them.

Again, I have yet to see someone who takes the pills and does therapy, and is a peak performer... It just doesn't happen. So the whole system, drugs + therapy, is broken.

You have extremely valid points, especially that labelling yourself with a certain mental disorder is actually more harmful than helpful. Unfortunately, for a majority of people going to therapy (probably 99% or more), they will never live up to even 50% of their full potential and are struggling to make it day by day (because they rely on therapy and drugs to do all the work for them). I've been going to therapy to deal with a lot of things from the past that are affecting me now - mostly shitty parenting or lack of parenting. But one thing I recognize is that therapy isn't a tool to help me directly on my entrepreneurship journey. It's more or less just helpful in identifying and explaining hardships from the past and using that to build a better present mindset/thought pattern and understanding of myself that can help me focus on important things in my life like entrepreneurship (using CBT). It's true, therapy isn't the end all be all, but I make improvement on my own time as well, through martial arts (kickboxing, jiu jitsu), meditation, implementing stoic philosophies in my life, and a few times a year using psychedelics. I don't expect talking to a therapist one hour a week to be a miracle cure, but I do know that therapy has and is playing an important role in me becoming a better person, which will hopefully translate into me becoming a better entrepreneur.

 

[missinfinity98]

Unfortunately, for a majority of people going to therapy (probably 99% or more), they will never live up to even 50% of their full potential

Where did you take those stats from? % It is hard, but it is important to remember we are in constant movement -change. Although it might not seem like it at first sight. I had a moment in my life, where I was relying too much on psychologists and psychiatrists. There are stages in healing. There is the stage called the "victim stage". Everyone who is healing from something goes through it. It is natural. This stage is not very proactive. This is why it is important not to get stuck in it. But this is a process that cannot be rushed. Everyone has got individual tempo, right?

 

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[Deleted68316]

So initially you said this:

"Mental illness simply is, in most of the cases, a problem related to too much or too little activity in one or more parts in people brains. it's a physical injury."

If it's a problem related to too much or too little activity in a part of the brain, and it's a physical injury, it follows that the state of your brain is the cause of your mental health issues.

And my assertion is that this claim is false. It's not the state of your brain, so much as how you use it that is the cause of mental health issues. There are biological factors the predispose one to mental health issues, however the activating factor is STRESS. Typically a form of stress that the person is unable to handle or cope with, that overwhelms the person.

The solution, in my eyes, is improving the way people use their brains - which is psychological strength. Not pills, drugs, or whatever. That's just a band-aid. As I mentioned before, people who resort to these means, never end up becoming high performers in most cases.

By the way, I especially find the "proven questionnaire system filled by you and by a person close to you" amusing. Imagine if we diagnosed any other medical conditions in that manner. It would be RIDICULOUS. And yet, we put so much faith in such man-made systems that have nothing to do with reality. A "proven questionnaire" is nothing more than a questionnaire dreamed up by some big hitters in the psychiatric world, who hold political influence, and who have "tested" it on patients where THEY decide what the outcome is anyway! (it's not the patients who make the final call as to their diagnostic, nor some objectively verifiable matter is it?)

That's fine man.

The questionnaire is just part of the system. Even a referee in a soccer game doesn't play but his role is fundamental.

Once, after several therapist, I went to this new guy. After a few sessions he couldn't understand what my problem was. So what he did? Yep, he gave me a questionnaire. Why he did it so long after the therapy started (and money paid)? Because he didn't have a system. He would have more success, IMHO, if he gave the questionnaire to everyone before starting therapy (or after the first session). It's just part of the process. It's just a questionnaire. We need to use all the tools at our disposal. You surely understand this.

I don't know how many lives you have saved (surely some as we all do in a way or the other). What I want to say, is just that this doctor saved, literally, a lot of lives and changed for the better many others.

His books are eye opening. People desperate that found solutions to problems they were dealing with for years. Nothing worked for them (traditional therapy and even drugs) until they saw their brain and understood the problem.

Also, knowing the brain, allows therapist to give specific solutions that sometimes don't involve drugs at all. Elimination diet, exercise, and supplements are great tools used by these kind of physician.

I think a lot of people out there may benefit from certain technologies.

I totally respect your point of view (as many other psychiatrist think the same). I just want to say, please, put other people first. Your point is respectable. It's just that if you read his books ("the end of mental illness" is recommended) you realize that people.may really benefit from this kind of knowledge.

Keep the doors open. You have a lot of points in this forum, be wise. People listen to you (I do).

There are a lot of people with "mental" illness. While we are not talking about "peak performance" right now, we want to help people that have problems living their life properly (these people usually don't talk, but they are here).

I wish everyone to find solutions to their problems in a quick way. Instead of going to a psychologist for years with little to no benefits (sometimes with good benefits of course), people may simply learn that they are not the problem, it's their brain the problem.

People feel bad and they blame themselves. This sucks and it's false.

Hope my point is clear. I respect your view. If you read one of his books we may find a common ground, or maybe you just have a different view, which I totally accept and that may benefit other people for sure.

We are all different, and what works for one may not work for the other.

Ray Dalio was the first one that introduced me to the concept of "chemical imbalances" in the brain. In his book "Principles: Life & Work" he explains how his son had problems with justice due to having a bipolar disorder (which they didn't know at the time).

Then, after several books and therapists (an passion and live to find a solution for his son), he realized that these kind of mental problems are simply "chemical imabalances" (this is how he calls them).

His son got treatment and produced a beautiful movie about bipolar disorder called "touched with fire".

Correlation may not be causation neither here. It's just how Ray Dalio explains the story. It's touching that part of the book. You see the love of a dad trying everything he can to change his son life for the better.

In any case, I would love to hear what would you recommend to someone that wants to change their brain through action. Exercise is surely helpful. What do you mean specifically?

 

[Deleted68316]

To back you up, since I agree with what you say.

When I was a kid, my mama was dying from depression (I never investigated further to avoid having her relieving certain memories).

The doctor gave her antidepressant which she refused to take. Instead, she found a religious community (in a small village in Italy (not a cult, just people supporting each other) and a compassionate priest.

That community, helped her to deal with her difficulties. It saved her life.

What was the cause of her problems? As you said, STRESS. A situation she couldn't deal with.
At the same time, Daniel Amen tells a story of this 7 years old kid that was hitting his class mates, and his mama found two drawings in his bedroom: one of him hanging from a tree and the other of him killing people with guns (he was probably an artist).

After several therapist, she brought him to Daniel Amen. They did a brain SPECT and it showed that there was no left temporal lobe.

After another analysis they discovered that this poor kid had a cyst in his brain that took over his left temporal lobe (associated with anger and violence).

They found a doctor that drained the cyst, and the kid started smiling again.
Who knows, maybe some diet and intense physical activity may have helped him. Or maybe religious community. I say it seriously. We don't know, though. We just know that this doctor saved a life.

The guy who drained the cyst said that the kid could have died if a basketball would have hit his head.

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

Ray Dalio was the first one that introduced me to the concept of "chemical imbalances" in the brain. In his book "Principles: Life & Work" he explains how his son had problems with justice due to having a bipolar disorder (which they didn't know at the time).

Then, after several books and therapists (an passion and live to find a solution for his son), he realized that these kind of mental problems are simply "chemical imabalances" (this is how he calls them).

His son got treatment and produced a beautiful movie about bipolar disorder called "touched with fire".

Correlation may not be causation neither here. It's just how Ray Dalio explains the story. It's touching that part of the book. You see the love of a dad trying everything he can to change his son life for the better.

Hmmm, it doesn't sound like this is accurate? Maybe you can provide a quote?

Here's Ray Dalio's son:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D65GD3NhjXg&ab_channel=DavidLynchFoundation


It seems transcendental meditation made the biggest difference in his life, much like it did in his father's life.

He dropped the medication below the minimum requirements...

This forum raised Michael Singer as the solution to all your emotional and mental problems. It's not like that. Yes, he definitely helps you to improve your life, but if you have a physical injury (in your brain) you still need something else.

Earlier you've said this - but it seems to me that things like meditation are more helpful in the long term than medication.

The specific treatments for each of my own conditions was different, but meditation probably provided the most global insight into it. The ability to detach from what is happening to you, and watch it from an external perspective. No medication can give you that imo.

 

[Deleted68316]

Hmmm, it doesn't sound like this is accurate? Maybe you can provide a quote?.

I'm not very good at adding quotes with the phone. Below is a copy paste from the book. In any case, that video (really interesting) seems to be shot after a while from the following story taken from the book. It seems Paul got to know better how meds work and improved his brain through meditation. Also, reducing the dose (also too much water kills people) brought him to a balanced state together with hours of meditation adding up and bringing him compound benefits.

Yes, meditation is a great deal. I have been doing it I think for at least 4 years. 20 minutes in the morning and 20 in the evening. I have maybe skipped 10 meditations in total and never a full day.

The following is Ray Dalio:

"I should also explain that my personal circumstances at the time also drew me to psychology and neurology. While for the most part I am keeping my family members’ lives out of this book to protect their privacy, I will tell you this one story about my son Paul as it is relevant and he is open about it.
After graduating from NYU’s Tisch film school, Paul headed out to Los Angeles to take a job. One day he went to the front desk of the hotel where he was staying while he looked for an apartment and smashed their computer. He was arrested and thrown in jail, where he was beaten up by guards. Ultimately, he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, released into my custody, and admitted to the psychiatric ward of a hospital.
That was the beginning of a three-year roller-coaster ride that took Paul, Barbara, and me to the peaks of his manias and the depths of his depressions, through the twists and turns of the health care system, and into discussions with some of the most brilliant and caring psychologists, psychiatrists, and neuroscientists at work today. There is nothing to prompt learning like pain and necessity, and this gave me plenty of both. At times I felt as though I was holding Paul by the hand as he was dangling over a cliff—from one day to the next, I never knew whether I could hold on or if he would slip from my grip. I worked intensely with his caregivers to understand what was going on and what to do about it. Thanks both to the help he received and his own great character, Paul worked through this and is now better off than if he hadn’t fallen into his abyss, because he developed strengths he didn’t have but needed. Paul was once wild—staying out till all hours, disorganized, smoking marijuana and drinking—but he now faithfully takes his meds, meditates, goes to bed early, and avoids drugs and alcohol. He had loads of creativity but lacked discipline. Now he has plenty of both. As a result, he is more creative now than he was before and is happily married, the father of two boys, an accomplished filmmaker, and a crusader helping those who struggle with bipolar disorder.
His radical transparency about being bipolar and his commitment to helping others with it inspires me. His first feature film, Touched with Fire,

which received lots of acclaim, gave many people who might have lost their lives to bipolar disorder both the hope and the path forward they needed. I remember watching him shoot one scene based on a real conversation between us in which he was manic and I was struggling to reason with him. I could simultaneously see the actor playing Paul at his worst while the real Paul was at his best, directing the scene. As I watched, my mind flashed over his whole journey—from the depths of his abyss, through his metamorphosis into the strong hero standing in front of me, someone on a mission to help others going through what he had gone through.
That journey through hell gave me a much deeper understanding of how and why we see things differently. I learned that much of how we think is physiological and can be changed. For example, Paul’s wild swings were due to the inconsistent secretions of dopamine and other chemicals in his brain, so he could change by controlling those chemicals and the activities and stimuli affecting them. I learned that creative genius and insanity can be quite close to each other, that the same chemistry that creates insights can cause distortions, and that being stuck in one’s own head is terribly dangerous. When Paul was “crazy,” he always believed his own illogical arguments, no matter how strange they sounded to others. While more extreme in the case of someone with bipolar disorder, this is something I’ve seen most everyone do. I also learned how people can control how their brains work to produce dramatically better effects. These insights helped me to deal with people more effectively, as I will explain in detail in Chapter Four, Understand That People Are Wired Very Differently."

This is not to say they we have to take medications. It was just the first time i heard an intelligent person (Ray Dalio) saying that meds can actually be helpful in certain cases and because of physical reasons (chemistry).

Will soon writing another post with things I would like to ask you and share.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Will soon writing another post with things I would like to ask you and share.

Nice, thanks for sharing! I’ve read Principles back when it was a PDF that Dalio was just giving away and totally didn’t remember that!

Let me know when the other post is up, I’d be glad to answer!

 

[Deleted68316]

Oh yeah, they did more than just balance heart rate and blood pressure, they also make you feel super relaxed, and some muscles in your body relax that have probably never relaxed before. That's the good side - on the bad side, they mess with your brain chemistry in a forceful and unnatural way (for example, it led to me getting benign fascicular syndrome, BFS, for about 2 years or so), they kill your drive/creativity, and they create dependency. What happens if you go on a mountain trip, or you get sent to prison, or God knows what happens and you don't have access to your SSRI?!

Also, for full disclosure, I took 3 different medications:
• SSRI (Lexapro - for 2 years)
• Benzo (lorazepam - for 1 year)
• Antipsychotic (Quetiapine - for 1.5 years or so)

Below is a private conversation I had with another member here, my reply only with some slight edits:



Yes there is, but a large part of that stigma is, IMO, real, and there for valid reasons.


I'm not sure what to comment on it. I'm quite sure I don't suffer from ADD or anything similar to it, and never really had these problems. I'm a guy who can "suffer" boredom without much problems - I don't need things to do. I literarily don't need exciting stuff apart from spending time with family, and working on my business. So to me, it's a mystery how some people need all the adrenaline rushes, etc. etc. to be happy.

If I am to give my honest opinion, I think hyperactivity is a defense mechanism - it's an avoidance of something. The hyperactive person is trying to avoid awareness of something that they don't want to see/notice in their lives, so they jump like a maniac from one thing to the next and seek stimulants to excite them to keep the thing they don't want to notice outside of awareness.

From my observations, most extroverts are hyperactive, and the reason they are hyperactive is a defense mechanism. They're afraid to be by themselves, alone, and so they go to any lengths to socialise, interact with others, and so on. A lot of it is seeking after validation and approval.

Again, I'm not an expert at this, just based on what I've noticed.

Thanks for sharing.

I always believed in body mind connection and in particular in doing something with the body in order to change activity in the brain or to overcome difficulties, if you want.

At a physical level, and referring specifically to body relaxation (I'm very tense) there are two things that gave me outstanding results:

1- swimming gently in the sea for 30/40 minutes (just enough to stay out of the water. No sport here. Like walking I guess)

2- Yoga

These two things gave me results that even if for a short period of time (a few hours) made me feel as I never felt before. No drug ever gave me the same results.

Now, my priorities are f*cked up. Hence, even if living in LA, I still didn't develop a routine that takles those 2 things on a consistent basis.

Something else I read about is Rolfing. The theory behind Rolfing is that the shape/structure of our body determines how we feel and our thoughts.

At the same time, the structure of our body is determined by our thoughts while growing up.

This means that a low confidence person may drop the shoulders forward since he is a kid (sorry, this is an example I came up with). Hence, the muscles in his body take that shape. What Rolfing does, it elongates those muscles (the container of the muscles to be precise) in order to re shape a person's body.

What they say, is that changing physiology at that radical level, changes the flow of energy in people's body instantaneously.

It's like the old (and simplified) guy saying that emotion is created by motion.

I remember a podcast with David Goggins. I may not quote properly here. He was saying that he has been taking muscle relaxers (or something strong like that) for quite a while because is body was aching.

After a while (with those drugs not giving many benefits) he met a therapist that told him to do stretching. He said that his body was incredibly contracted due to the intense physical activity he did.

He now does stretching 3 times a day, got better and is out of meds.

The juice of the story is correct. If you want the link of the podcast let me know. I think it was with Rich Roll.

 

[• nikita •]

Thanks to all the contributors on this thread.

I wanted to chime in with some thoughts on mental health, and hopefully, someone can relate. I have struggled with mental health at various times, and I have learned to live with a sort of underlying low-level depression (or negative self-talk) - it is very minimal - but it can raise its ugly head from time to time.

So, here goes: for me, my biggest issue is one reaction to life, but can wear different guises @MJ DeMarco mentioned one of these recently on his telegram messaging thread (which I recommend, by the way) he used the quote by Theodore Roosevelt to emphasis the point, the quote being "Comparison is the thief of joy!"

And there is one guise: Comparison with a morbid reflection of the past and an inability to forgive oneself.
You see, my reaction to what I perceive in others and life happening around me can go like this:

"They are doing better than you, think they are better than you, (maybe they don't think they are!) maybe they are and don't think it because they made better choices than you; you f*cked up, and you did stupid stuff and wasted so much time, and it's too late now, and they are getting better and better and better. And you are stuck!"

But I have learned that this is complete trash. That's exactly what it is. The evidence is there in life to prove that it's flawed thinking so that I can swing into action quicker these days. But, these thought patterns do crop up and invade my dreams, spitting out all sorts of symbolic fantasies, which are kind of terrible; but in real life, I plough on. I am going my own way because I have no choice.

I used to be crippled by these thought patterns, and as I said, they are not gone; I have just turned down the volume. How I did, it was through extensive therapy, staying away from Drugs. I stopped drinking alcohol for 13.5 years; I enjoy a social drink now as I am not escaping anymore. But the reality is that it was only through doing deep work on myself and my perception and owning up to any mistakes I made. Be it physical, financial, mental, spiritual, etc.

I called many people, texted, emailed and reached out to tell people that if I hurt them, I was sorry. People appreciated this, for the most part. Most didn't even think I did anything wrong, but they were still grateful. Some even apologised to me for treating me badly; those were magical moments. But still, after all this, the noise in the mind can continue. Human life can be painful a lot of the time for different reasons. I talk about it now with friends, and I try to joke about it or make light of it as we are all suffering somehow.

Maybe this message is slightly unclear in its throughline. My main message to anyone is, I understand that you may be struggling, so go seek guidance and help in any way possible through human connection and talk. Talk till the cows come home as we say in Ireland. Don't keep the crap inside! And you'll be amazed at what will happen.

After this is said and done, get to work! And achieve something, nothing better for mental health than gaining a few goals but staying humble and focusing on the beautiful present. Bless you, all.

Bertie

My irritable mood and things I went through as a kid made me kind of mean, and I feel really guilty at the way I acted at times. It's given me this reputation of being awful. Or maybe I'm not, and my family constantly guilting me is the reason I think I'm so awful. It's difficult to feel good about yourself when your entire past is you being mean and negative. My mood switches a lot between extremely depressed to normal and happy, and when I feel normal I feel guilty about what I've done when I'm in a negative mood. Then when I'm negative I feel stupid for having been happy or thinking I'd ever improve. I'm convinced I'm right during both moods and the other "me" was stupid.

If I apologise to my family (despite knowing deep down that I didn't do anything wrong, I was just a kid in pain that no one ever hugged or told was gonna be okay) I don't really get a positive reaction lol. But I also come from a culture/family that guilts you a lot/trods on everyone who isn't normal.

Overall, I'm just confused and angry and don't have anyone in my life who consistently treats me well.

 

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[Deleted68316]

Thanks to all the contributors on this thread.

I wanted to chime in with some thoughts on mental health, and hopefully, someone can relate. I have struggled with mental health at various times, and I have learned to live with a sort of underlying low-level depression (or negative self-talk) - it is very minimal - but it can raise its ugly head from time to time.

So, here goes: for me, my biggest issue is one reaction to life, but can wear different guises @MJ DeMarco mentioned one of these recently on his telegram messaging thread (which I recommend, by the way) he used the quote by Theodore Roosevelt to emphasis the point, the quote being "Comparison is the thief of joy!"

And there is one guise: Comparison with a morbid reflection of the past and an inability to forgive oneself.
You see, my reaction to what I perceive in others and life happening around me can go like this:

"They are doing better than you, think they are better than you, (maybe they don't think they are!) maybe they are and don't think it because they made better choices than you; you f*cked up, and you did stupid stuff and wasted so much time, and it's too late now, and they are getting better and better and better. And you are stuck!"

But I have learned that this is complete trash. That's exactly what it is. The evidence is there in life to prove that it's flawed thinking so that I can swing into action quicker these days. But, these thought patterns do crop up and invade my dreams, spitting out all sorts of symbolic fantasies, which are kind of terrible; but in real life, I plough on. I am going my own way because I have no choice.

I used to be crippled by these thought patterns, and as I said, they are not gone; I have just turned down the volume. How I did, it was through extensive therapy, staying away from Drugs. I stopped drinking alcohol for 13.5 years; I enjoy a social drink now as I am not escaping anymore. But the reality is that it was only through doing deep work on myself and my perception and owning up to any mistakes I made. Be it physical, financial, mental, spiritual, etc.

I called many people, texted, emailed and reached out to tell people that if I hurt them, I was sorry. People appreciated this, for the most part. Most didn't even think I did anything wrong, but they were still grateful. Some even apologised to me for treating me badly; those were magical moments. But still, after all this, the noise in the mind can continue. Human life can be painful a lot of the time for different reasons. I talk about it now with friends, and I try to joke about it or make light of it as we are all suffering somehow.

Maybe this message is slightly unclear in its throughline. My main message to anyone is, I understand that you may be struggling, so go seek guidance and help in any way possible through human connection and talk. Talk till the cows come home as we say in Ireland. Don't keep the crap inside! And you'll be amazed at what will happen.

After this is said and done, get to work! And achieve something, nothing better for mental health than gaining a few goals but staying humble and focusing on the beautiful present. Bless you, all.

Bertie

Yes, talking is incredibly helpful.

Just please, guys, remember that often "mental" problems are "physical" problems.

While you say how you are dealing with low level depression, you are still a single person talking about it.

If there is some doctor that can give you in depth information and that helped hundred's, if not more, people dealing with their problems, we should refer to them.

Unfortunately the third cause of death in the United States is misdiagnosis/wrong treatments from doctors. Can you believe that?

I hate people saying "this is not medical advice please seek professional help". F*ck that. Ignorant people (or maybe it's just what they must say to avoid going to jail in the land of layers and sue).

You see how that sucks? You see how people wash their hands?

Please, do yourself a favor, and read the books of Daniel Amen:

- Change your brain change your life

- The End Of Mental Illness


This doctor takes his responsibilities. In fact you know what he does? At the end of the book there is a list of what he considers great therapist. For kids, depression, ADD, OCD, whatever you're problem is, you can find a good therapist (or at least you increase your chances).

You see, this doctor didn't only write "this book is not for medical purposes please find a doctor that kills you". He gives you a F*cking list of great doctors.

Please guys, really, stop trying to fix your problems with self help books.


EDIT: I struggled with acne and pimples for all my life. I went to several doctors that always, consistently, made situation worse.

I know it was food causing me problems, but no doctor said so. In the end, I found a good doctor that did a food intolerances test, gave me a plan, and I got clean like a baby.

This is to say: in the last one believing in doctors, but there are some that can change our lives. Or goal is to find them.

 

[Supa]

Haven't updated this thread in a looong time.

There have been several times when I started to write a new post in here. Especially the one on depression, that I wanted to write for quite some time. But I didn't.

A lot of my thinking on these topics changed since writing the first post. Even how I view OCD, the very first post in here and the disorder I suffer from myself, has changed completely since then. Most of what I wrote in that post (concerning how to treat it) changed. Some of it slightly, some significantly.

Don't get me wrong, the insights in there are still valid and reflect one way of viewing and treating OCD. But it only reflects one way of viewing it. Namely that of CBT.

Over the last few years I spent a lot of time educating myself on various ways of approaching what goes on inside of us. This includes OCD and depression, since I struggle with the first one for most of my life and felt the absorbing cold darkness of the latter one from time to time as well.

But I didn't stop there.

The more I read and watched and listened to, the more I liked the idea of studying various schools of thought and picking what helps you the most. So you may pick something from CBT here, something from Psychotherapy there and an idea from ACT, a metapher from mindfulness, etc. and put all of this together that creates something uniquely fitting your needs and helping you.

I thought when it helps me, maybe it also helps others, so I started to write articles about these topics. Keeping the writing in a way that it poses what if? questions instead of telling readers what to think. Thereby hopefully being able to provide useful tidbits from all kinds of different schools of thought for the readers to pick what helps them.

In the hope that it can be helpful to someone, I want to post the articles that fit this thread in here as well.

 

[Supa]

Latest and most comprehensive mental health theory is that all mental disorders are all metabolic diseases.

If the brain is starved of nutrients or gets inflamed, you start having mental health symptoms.

If the theory is correct, and I strongly believe that it is, it means that Depression, Anxiety, OCD, Schizophrenia etc. are all different symptoms of the same underlying issue.

The first step to fixing your mental health is not F*cking therapy.
It's fixing your sleep, diet and exercise regime, in order to fix your brain metabolism.

And on the psychological front, the best thing you can do is start making progress in life and start being proud of your hard work. Slow but consistent progress.

Every day will be brighter and you will slowly start to understand that the life you are living is nothing less than a miracle.
You were just blind and could not see it.

Haven't heard of that theory yet, but it sounds interesting! Will look into it. Thanks!

Edit to add:
A quick Google search brought me to this article:
Brain Energy: The Metabolic Theory of Mental Illness by Christopher M Palmer M.D.
as well as the book of the same name (Brain Energy). Will take a look, as this sounds promising.

 

[Supa]

I look at it in simpler terms.

We don’t want to admit that we’re physical beings, and therefore we attribute to our minds much greater power to control how we feel and what thoughts we have than to our environment.

The truth is that our environment simply controls most of the thoughts and moods that we have. It’s not lack of mental strength that causes you to feel like shit when you’re in a shitty environment (and that includes eating crap, not sleeping, etc). And there’s no “mindset shift” that can change how you feel in the long run without you changing your environment.

Once you begin to think along physicalist principles, this becomes quite clear. I am in agreement with Nietzsche over one thing: that today’s psychologists have for the most part inverted cause and effect.

They think that bad thoughts and bad moods are the CAUSE of the bad environment. This guy is depressed, that’s why he drinks all the time. This other guy is traumatized, that’s why he doesn’t leave the house.

And the truth is exactly the opposite. The first guy is depressed because he drinks. And the second is traumatized because he doesn’t leave the house.

When you have the causality a$$ backwards, the problems become impossible to solve which is how the current mindfulness-backed third wave CBT has backed itself into a corner.

Fixation on the effect will not change the cause. The fixation has to be around the cause, because that’s what has potential to change the effect.

If you get stuck ignoring your drinking habit because you’re trying to work on your negative thoughts and lack of self-esteem, you’re unlikely to succeed in changing the latter… because they’re simply an accurate reflection of who you are at that point in time… you don’t have any self-esteem and no reason for your thoughts to be positive. You’re a drunk! So first you have to fix yourself up, then you’ll feel better.

What you say is to some extent similar to the philosophy of Alfred Adler. I don't know if you're familiar with him or his work.

I still like the idea of understanding the why, in order to treat the what.

So, let's use your example of the drunk person. Yes, they have not many reasons for high self-esteem as long as they are drunks. And changing that should be pretty high up on their list of priorities.

Why, though, did this person become a drunk in the first place?

Let's say this person, from early on, was never shown proper love. They were never treated kindly as a child and no one ever made an effort to get to know them properly. So this person grows into someone, who has no clear sense of self-worth, no image of themselves as someone capable of being good enough to be loved.

When younger they may bury their feelings of worthlessness in candies and enjoy the quick rush of happy feelings the provide. Later, when they get older, they may turn to alcohol to fill that empty void.

And before you know it, they end up where you described them to be.

Now, of course knowing all of this will not turn them from a drunk into a sober, high self-esteem person. Knowing this may not fix their alcoholism, sure, but once they are no longer in that drunk state, figuring out what got them there in the first place may give them ways to not land there ever again. More than that, it may help to get rid of a lof of unhealthy and unhelpful beliefs about themselves, making it easier for them to do things that help create a good environment to keep them in that good place.

So yeah. I do think this is not an either-or situation. Rather, this may be a case of different things influencing each other.

Environment - past experiences - beliefs and self-image - actions - self-esteem - diet and exercise - and more

All of them, rather than being the cause for another one of this list, being parts of a whole that influence each other in numerous ways.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

What you say is to some extent similar to the philosophy of Alfred Adler. I don't know if you're familiar with him or his work.

I am somewhat familiar, but I see what I say as more in line with the BEHAVIORISTS than with any of the psychotherapists or cognitivists.

So I have major disagreements with both Jung and Adler, they are too cognitive.

Let's say this person, from early on, was never shown proper love. They were never treated kindly as a child and no one ever made an effort to get to know them properly. So this person grows into someone, who has no clear sense of self-worth, no image of themselves as someone capable of being good enough to be loved.

When younger they may bury their feelings of worthlessness in candies and enjoy the quick rush of happy feelings the provide. Later, when they get older, they may turn to alcohol to fill that empty void.

And before you know it, they end up where you described them to be.

See this is the problem with cognitivism. It creates false stories, and then replaces reality with the story. Exactly as Nietzsche said… if you read The Genealogy of Morals, you will see this same sort of development.

Intellectual explanations are made to replace the underlying reality. That is the inversion of values that Nietzsche spoke about.

The reason why it’s a false story is because you can have another person in the exact same circumstances, and yet they never become drunks. There were cases of twins where one becomes a serial killer, and the other an upstanding citizen, despite growing up in the same environment.

The real reason why they became a drunk and developed that habit is because of their own choices. Which were FREE - they could have acted otherwise but chose not to. Blaming it on the environment is just an excuse…

And actually, they will keep being drunks so long as they can blame it on the environment and their parents. That becomes the excuse not to do anything. The perfect excuse for why they need help - their parents F*cked them up!

The truth is that they are drunks because they WANT to be drunks.

They want to suffer by being drunks, because they perceive the other suffering, changing their ways, having to be sober, to confront reality, to deal with their loneliness, to go out there and be awkward trying to meet new people - they conceive that as horrible and unbearable.

This phenomenon is called resistance. That’s why most patients can’t be helped. They don’t want to be helped. If they did, they wouldn’t need a therapist. They’d just do it.

Of course you can’t tell it to their face that they’re drunks because they want to be drunks, they’ll just stop seeing you. But that’s the truth.

And all you can do is hypnotize them so they’ll open up, and accept the challenge of behaving and acting differently. That’s the only thing that will create real change for them. New experiences and a new environment. Getting out of their comfort zone.

I remain convinced that if there was a way to take one of these very depressed people, and FORCE them to behave differently, their depression would end.

“Uhhh I am depressed I wanna stay in bed” — BAM cold water on their face, up we go for a run.

Unfortunately these methods are uncivilized and may trigger resistance from snowflakes who feel entitled. And would be very hard to put in practice due to our respect for the individual.

 

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[mr4ffe]

I remain convinced that if there was a way to take one of these very depressed people, and FORCE them to behave differently, their depression would end.

“Uhhh I am depressed I wanna stay in bed” — BAM cold water on their face, up we go for a run.

Unfortunately these methods are uncivilized and may trigger resistance from snowflakes who feel entitled. And would be very hard to put in practice due to our respect for the individual.

That doesn't help. I've done that for more than 10 years. At best, you'll be productive but still as hollow inside until you hit another wall. What actually helps is developing drive and ambition. That is way easier said than done, though.

 

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[heavy_industry]

What these guys are saying, at least what I'm getting, is that depression is "all in your mind" and it doesn't exist, and that one can overcome various mental health issues by "being strong".

Not at all lol
Depression is a neurological disorder that can be measured by a number of objective physiological markers. We can test depression in a lab.

Is it all in your head?
Your mind has a very strong influence on your neurology. So yes, with enough effort you can use you mind to induce brain inflammation, excessive cortisol release, and finally you will end up in a depressed state.

Unfortunately things don't work the other way around as well.
Once you are depressed, it's very difficult to use the mind to change the mind. Because the mind has been shut off.

At that point your best bet is using medication, hard exercise, or prolonged fasting to enter deep ketosis and change the biochemistry of the brain. Therapy might help, but I wouldn't use it as the first line of defense.

Depression is a horrible ailment and I wish that all fastlaners that are suffering from it will conquer it, and start living an awesome life.

 

[Supa]

To add to the topic of how our childhoods influence our adult lives, a video from The School of Life.

 

[Supa]

As we talk a lot about depression in this thread, here is a video I find describes it really well:

 

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[MrE]

As we talk a lot about depression in this thread, here is a video I find describes it really well:

'The sad person knows what they are sad about. The depressed person doesn't.' So true!!

 

[PC123]

I have a hard time turning my brain off.

There is usually one more task, one more thing to do, and once that is done there is always one more improvement I can make to x,y,z.

There is so much that I want to do.

Start a meditation practice. Start 5 mins daily. The brain is like a muscle, daily practice will see incremental improvements. When I first starting meditating, I began 5 mins a day for 44 days. Then, I moved to 10 mins a day (for 44 days) and so on. If you stick with it, you'll be pleasantly surprised by the results.

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

Dr. Michael Greenberg‘s

Great mention — this is one of the best therapists around imo, who is actively thinking how to improve therapy techniques. As someone who was diagnosed with OCD, I can attest to the effectiveness of many of his strategies.

Imo — the biggest issue with OCD is distinguishing between what is worth “ruminating” on and what isn’t. He describes rumination as being actively involved in trying to solve the problem. Imo, the biggest driver for OCD are the persistent belief that rumination may help you uncover a solution or prevent a tragedy. Hence you can’t let go of the compulsions (ruminations), because you see the as integral to your survival, which would be diminished if you didn’t adopt these attitudes.

For me, I’ve pretty much eliminated most of my OCD, but I still get traces especially when highly stressed.

I think not just OCD, but all of anxiety is the product of rumination. OCD is just the most “severe” form, since it sustains itself.

 

[Andy Black]

Dropping this here:

MINDSET - Stuck or battling demons? This might help.

Thought I'd drop this incredible video here. What's your takeaways? What will you do different going forward? View: https://youtu.be/s_nc1IVoMxc

www.thefastlaneforum.com

 

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