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GOLD! Learning to Program is STUPID! (or SMART?!)

LiveEntrepreneur

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So what you will be spending years?
You think you will be the marketing & sales KING in a few months?
While you have nothing to market or sell?

"I don't want to do so much work, I'll just choose something else."

It's exactly because of this "shortcut mentality" that I had so many failures.
I think you didn't understand my comment, what I was trying to say was that it seemed like to me that marketing/sales seems more valuable to spend my time on. But somethings changed actually, I decided to give it another try, I have an idea I am going to work on. About me having a shortcut mentality, it's hard to say I have a hard time been honest with my self. I did say no above but I could be wrong and could still be looking for shortcuts. But luckily things are starting to get better.
 

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workinprogress

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I learned to program because with programming you can find a job that doesn't require a degree, just your portfolio, and you can learn enough in just a few months to land one. I didn't want to go to university, so that's what I did. And I wanted the option to work remote (I know there are other ways to achieve this though).

It's a brilliant skill, and it's helped me a ton in every business idea I've tried. It's great being able to edit your site, make small adjustments, and know your way around an application.

Though I 100% agree that you don't need advanced skills to make money with coding. Fox's thread on starting a web design business is proof. Basic HTML, CSS and a little JS is enough. I thought I needed to be an expert, and his thread reminded me that I didn't. I'll still carry on improving my programming skills to hold down my current slowlane job, but after that... I don't know. I do this thing where with everything I do I ask myself "if I didn't have to worry about career or money, would I be doing this?" and the answer is often no.
How big or quality of a portfolio did have to build up in order to be impressive enough to land a job using it, sans degree? How long did it take to build up that portfolio? What kind of position did you get with your portfolio?

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How big or quality of a portfolio did have to build up in order to be impressive enough to land a job using it, sans degree? How long did it take to build up that portfolio? What kind of position did you get with your portfolio?

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Just a portfolio with a nice UI and about 6 of my projects. These were projects I did from the front end course on Free Code Camp. I highly recommend FFC because it guides you through making that portfolio and projects. Took me about 4 months but I had no job as it was straight out of HS. I got a junior web developer job. I was a massive beginner, but enough to get a job.

I highly recommend this learning path if you want the fast track to a web dev job: p1xt-guides/job-ready.md at master · P1xt/p1xt-guides · GitHub
This one is longer and more comprehensive, takes you from junior to senior: p1xt-guides/cs-wd.md at master · P1xt/p1xt-guides · GitHub

Protip: If you're good at design, you're much more likely to land a job as a beginner because you can mask your poor programming skills with good design.
Also, having an active Github is a major plus to employers.

I love this field because anyone can get a good job starting from nothing. My childhood was a disaster, kept changing and dropping out of schools, got mediocre results, and never went to university. I'm young af. But somehow they took me. Almost too good to be true.
 

Brander

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If you can't afford in-house coders and an overseer/tester dealing with online freelancers is a losing game. They don't care about doing a great job because you're just one deal to them not a livelihood. You either put in the time or money, your choice.
 

• nikita •

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If you can't afford in-house coders and an overseer/tester dealing with online freelancers is a losing game. They don't care about doing a great job because you're just one deal to them not a livelihood. You either put in the time or money, your choice.
This is my worry. I want to automate one day, but I can't trust Upwork freelancers. Even if they're good, everyone has a different style and your work will end up looking inconsistent, which is bad for a brand.
 

A1roller

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Just a portfolio with a nice UI and about 6 of my projects. These were projects I did from the front end course on Free Code Camp. I highly recommend FFC because it guides you through making that portfolio and projects. Took me about 4 months but I had no job as it was straight out of HS. I got a junior web developer job. I was a massive beginner, but enough to get a job.

I highly recommend this learning path if you want the fast track to a web dev job: p1xt-guides/job-ready.md at master · P1xt/p1xt-guides · GitHub
This one is longer and more comprehensive, takes you from junior to senior: p1xt-guides/cs-wd.md at master · P1xt/p1xt-guides · GitHub

Protip: If you're good at design, you're much more likely to land a job as a beginner because you can mask your poor programming skills with good design.
Also, having an active Github is a major plus to employers.

I love this field because anyone can get a good job starting from nothing. My childhood was a disaster, kept changing and dropping out of schools, got mediocre results, and never went to university. I'm young af. But somehow they took me. Almost too good to be true.
Great to read about someone from the UK about programming as I have considered learning to program to get a better slowlane job and put myself into a position where I am problem-solving and learning skills that work the entrepreneurial muscles. Just a few questions if you would be so kind as to humor me -
Did you go from complete beginner to getting a job in 4 months?
How good is the salary on the job you managed to get? (hope this one isn't too personal, but the reason I ask is I work in an unskilled customer service job at the moment and a lot of web devs posting on reddit seem to earn less than me)
How easy was it for you to get a job, and do you think living in London was a big help in securing employment?
How much do you feel that coding is helping you in terms of entrepreneurship?

The last question might be a difficult answer, but my hope in learning to code is that I can gain an understanding for example of how data can be manipulated through programming to bring a valuable product to market via an opportunity which may not be obvious without having learned to code. Do you think coding will open doors like this or has opened doors like this for you personally? Or do you think that ideas for digital apps/services are just as easy to come up with without any prior coding knowledge?
 

• nikita •

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Great to read about someone from the UK about programming as I have considered learning to program to get a better slowlane job and put myself into a position where I am problem-solving and learning skills that work the entrepreneurial muscles. Just a few questions if you would be so kind as to humor me -
Did you go from complete beginner to getting a job in 4 months?
How good is the salary on the job you managed to get? (hope this one isn't too personal, but the reason I ask is I work in an unskilled customer service job at the moment and a lot of web devs posting on reddit seem to earn less than me)
How easy was it for you to get a job, and do you think living in London was a big help in securing employment?
How much do you feel that coding is helping you in terms of entrepreneurship?

The last question might be a difficult answer, but my hope in learning to code is that I can gain an understanding for example of how data can be manipulated through programming to bring a valuable product to market via an opportunity which may not be obvious without having learned to code. Do you think coding will open doors like this or has opened doors like this for you personally? Or do you think that ideas for digital apps/services are just as easy to come up with without any prior coding knowledge?
Hey there!

1) Yes, I went from complete beginner to job-ready (though by job-ready I mean very junior level). I started with not even knowing basic HTML.
2) The salary for web devs is awesome for a slowlane job. It's almost too good to be true, considering you don't need an education to get a job. I skipped university, and that was a major plus for me. My first junior job I started on £20k, and my second £28k. I was told your salary as a dev rises by £5k a year. Again, pretty good for a slowlane job.
3) First time very easy. I just finished Free Code Camp and decided to go for it despite barely having any skills. You have to apply to every job, even if it has crazy requirements like 10 years experience or some shit. Watch this video on it:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G3kQyqMFpQ

I went on angel.co and filled in my profile completely, personalised it and shit. People literally scout you. I got called in for a job rather than applying.
Second time it was much tougher because my first experience was a shitstorm and I wanted more than just a startup with crazy commutes. I applied to a bunch of remote jobs and got one. They're not based in London, so I don't think me being in London helped. Though yes, living in a large city definitely helps.
4) Absolutely. Want to design an app? Learning the programming language is easier. Want to set up ecomm stores? Editing the theme will be simple. Want to start up a web design agency? Well, obviously coding is a big part.

Though I think the best part is that even if I start a business and it fails, there are so many programming jobs out there that I won't have to worry about finding a job again.
 

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The truth is it doesn't really matter what will you choose. Programing copywriting or whatever it may be. As long as your execution is perfect then, success is inevitable. The only limiting factor is TIME.

Time will differentiate the two.
 

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Without programming I would be nothing today. It is a skill that if the worst thing happened to me and I lost everything in life, I could still do and earn a really damn good income to bootstrap anything I want to do and super fast.

No offense to all the people that refuse to put the time in to learn, but I can turn around a project at a very high rate and easily make 15k in a week or 2 for specific projects (hint flat rate bid mobile app jobs in a pinch if you know you can do it and don't let on how long it takes to do it.)

Is it a waste of time to learn to program? Nope. Is it something everyone can do? Clearly not. Everyone should learn a thing or two about it.

But if you put in the time to learn to do it well enough to get junior level jobs, then you can learn to bootstrap about anything you need to do if you lose everything else in life. I do a lot of Sales and Marketing, specially online marketing, and I can't say that I have been able to repeat the sheer dollar amount as fast, but that would be my second skill in terms of hard skills. Along with that is ability to write ad copy/copy write type work. Lastly an entrepreneur sense of what to do.

One thing I do love is having an idea, quickly creating it the online site for it. Being able to identify and know what I am going to do to push. Just enough design until I can afford a real artist to get me past bootstrap. Get marketing pieces all done. All on my own. Of all the parts in the beginning the development/programming would be the most expensive. Just knowing enough to get a site up and doing the things you want to do with it (not just a wordpress site) is even worth the effort.

Final word: It is hard, it is a fastlane skill. It isn't for everyone. It is also my opinion. It is also the one thing that I can honestly say is how I have made my life, "retired" early.
 
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lowtek

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Hi CryptO, fromyour name are you anything to do with Cryptocurrency? I'm looking for coders in Cryptocurrency. Know anyone in this forum?
If you aren't a phd level programmer with a brilliant mind and some equally brilliant friends with a vision or sitting on top of millions in liquid capital, there is little point in chasing that dragon. The execution on such a project .... is astronomically challenging.

Not trying to piss on your parade, but I gotta be real. This isn't some app on the app store ...
 

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Obiwan

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If you aren't a phd level programmer with a brilliant mind and some equally brilliant friends with a vision or sitting on top of millions in liquid capital, there is little point in chasing that dragon. The execution on such a project .... is astronomically challenging.

Not trying to piss on your parade, but I gotta be real. This isn't some app on the app store ...
Thank you for your opinion, but you did not answer my question. And therein lies the anomaly, by not answering the question you did answer my question.

However, for your information, I do have a Masters Degree in Computer Science, Numerical Analysis/ScientificComputation, but I know my limitations. I have been doing this since 1966, 6/6/1966 to be precise, and therein lies the rub, I'm not as young as I used to be and therefore not as sharp. But I do have a very good understanding of the nature of the beast.

As for brilliant friends, that I do not have, not in this field anyway, and that is why I put the question on The Fast Lane Forum. I could go to India and find some of the most brilliant young developers on the planet. However, I have been warned by people whom I respect, that six months later someone else would be offering my unique development to the world. So, in debating the problem with myself I was reminded of the speech by Shakespeare's Henry V, "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers"; and immediately thought of all the like-minded "band of brothers" on the forum. Sadly, my "band of brothers" optimism has been dashed, and I must look elsewhere.

As far as the "...millions in liquid capital..." I am presenting this concept in conjunction with a few other features to a bank in South Africa, is we get the go ahead, money is the least of the problems.

Also, your superlative "astronomically challenging", no, nowhere near it. Challenging yes! Astronomically, no! AI, that's astronomically challenging.
 

lowtek

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Thank you for your opinion, but you did not answer my question. And therein lies the anomaly, by not answering the question you did answer my question.

However, for your information, I do have a Masters Degree in Computer Science, Numerical Analysis/ScientificComputation, but I know my limitations. I have been doing this since 1966, 6/6/1966 to be precise, and therein lies the rub, I'm not as young as I used to be and therefore not as sharp. But I do have a very good understanding of the nature of the beast.

As for brilliant friends, that I do not have, not in this field anyway, and that is why I put the question on The Fast Lane Forum. I could go to India and find some of the most brilliant young developers on the planet. However, I have been warned by people whom I respect, that six months later someone else would be offering my unique development to the world. So, in debating the problem with myself I was reminded of the speech by Shakespeare's Henry V, "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers"; and immediately thought of all the like-minded "band of brothers" on the forum. Sadly, my "band of brothers" optimism has been dashed, and I must look elsewhere.

As far as the "...millions in liquid capital..." I am presenting this concept in conjunction with a few other features to a bank in South Africa, is we get the go ahead, money is the least of the problems.

Also, your superlative "astronomically challenging", no, nowhere near it. Challenging yes! Astronomically, no! AI, that's astronomically challenging.
My apologies. I didn't know your background, and we get some folks here with ideas that are less than connected with reality.

Old school CS is good enough, and having some investment backers is even better.

You may want to check out the thread on web 3.0 / ethereum and ping the OP - perhaps he knows someone.
 

Aaron T

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Thank you for your opinion, but you did not answer my question. And therein lies the anomaly, by not answering the question you did answer my question.

However, for your information, I do have a Masters Degree in Computer Science, Numerical Analysis/ScientificComputation, but I know my limitations. I have been doing this since 1966, 6/6/1966 to be precise, and therein lies the rub, I'm not as young as I used to be and therefore not as sharp. But I do have a very good understanding of the nature of the beast.

As for brilliant friends, that I do not have, not in this field anyway, and that is why I put the question on The Fast Lane Forum. I could go to India and find some of the most brilliant young developers on the planet. However, I have been warned by people whom I respect, that six months later someone else would be offering my unique development to the world. So, in debating the problem with myself I was reminded of the speech by Shakespeare's Henry V, "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers"; and immediately thought of all the like-minded "band of brothers" on the forum. Sadly, my "band of brothers" optimism has been dashed, and I must look elsewhere.

As far as the "...millions in liquid capital..." I am presenting this concept in conjunction with a few other features to a bank in South Africa, is we get the go ahead, money is the least of the problems.

Also, your superlative "astronomically challenging", no, nowhere near it. Challenging yes! Astronomically, no! AI, that's astronomically challenging.
Excited to see another old school developer on here!

You certainly have the background to see this thing through so that is awesome. You don't need to understand all aspects as you are well aware but enough to know when the people you are working with are diverting from the goals, the code is bad (do your code reviews), and enough to get the requirements set to keep it moving.

I hope you find what you are looking for. While blockchain work is not astronomically difficult, it is a harder problem. I have some experience with it (not an expert!) and testing some ideas for another investment I am looking into. There is so much potential and it is a bit wide open right now, however it pays to get it right up front. If you need an older curmudgeon, developers ear for anything, please PM me. I would love to help in any way possible and may have some value for you.
 

Obiwan

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My apologies. I didn't know your background, and we get some folks here with ideas that are less than connected with reality.

Old school CS is good enough, and having some investment backers is even better.

You may want to check out the thread on web 3.0 / ethereum and ping the OP - perhaps he knows someone.
Thank you. I will take your advice and check out ethereum.
 

Obiwan

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Excited to see another old school developer on here!

You certainly have the background to see this thing through so that is awesome. You don't need to understand all aspects as you are well aware but enough to know when the people you are working with are diverting from the goals, the code is bad (do your code reviews), and enough to get the requirements set to keep it moving.

I hope you find what you are looking for. While blockchain work is not astronomically difficult, it is a harder problem. I have some experience with it (not an expert!) and testing some ideas for another investment I am looking into. There is so much potential and it is a bit wide open right now, however it pays to get it right up front. If you need an older curmudgeon, developers ear for anything, please PM me. I would love to help in any way possible and may have some value for you.
Thank you for your offer of help, I may just take you up on that in the future. The problem with us old farts is that coding really is a young persons game. It's not that I don't know what to do, it's that I have to think about it. In my early twenties, when I tackled a problem, I didn't have to debate with myself, I just knew what I had to do. True, I made a few mistakes, but nothing major. It's like talking, one does not have to think of the words that you are going to use, you just talk.

Today, I look at the bigger picture. I know what I want, layout the requirements and let the young blood do the coding. I was hoping I might find some "Young Blood" on this forum.

From my research I think I agree with "lowtek" I would like to piggy back on the ethereum blockchain, but there are some specific requirements of the target audience that I do need to be incorporated. As "lowtek" suggested, maybe the OP can advice.
 

Aaron T

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Thank you for your offer of help, I may just take you up on that in the future. The problem with us old farts is that coding really is a young persons game. It's not that I don't know what to do, it's that I have to think about it. In my early twenties, when I tackled a problem, I didn't have to debate with myself, I just knew what I had to do. True, I made a few mistakes, but nothing major. It's like talking, one does not have to think of the words that you are going to use, you just talk.

Today, I look at the bigger picture. I know what I want, layout the requirements and let the young blood do the coding. I was hoping I might find some "Young Blood" on this forum.

From my research I think I agree with "lowtek" I would like to piggy back on the ethereum blockchain, but there are some specific requirements of the target audience that I do need to be incorporated. As "lowtek" suggested, maybe the OP can advice.
There is some truth to that, but in a lot of ways I haven't grown up. Certainly love my toys :). Anyway I code almost on a daily basis. I enjoy it. It is thing I do. It is almost like meditation for me. The harder the problem, the more I enjoy it. Then there are periods where I just go away for a while and don't tough the laptop, write much code, full of grid and travel. Also love that.
 

Obiwan

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There is some truth to that, but in a lot of ways I haven't grown up. Certainly love my toys :). Anyway I code almost on a daily basis. I enjoy it. It is thing I do. It is almost like meditation for me. The harder the problem, the more I enjoy it. Then there are periods where I just go away for a while and don't tough the laptop, write much code, full of grid and travel. Also love that.
Well Aaron and lowtek, I've checked out ethereum, impressive.
However, am I being paranoiac, but it's written by a Russian, which is now being endorsed by Putin? Coincidence?
Tell me Aaron what do you code in? Ethereum uses Soilidty a JavaScript look alike.
 

Aaron T

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Tell me Aaron what do you code in? Ethereum uses Soilidty a JavaScript look alike.
Over my long career I have used many languages so it is hard to say. These days I used JavaScript/TypeScript and HTML5/CSS for all my Front End work. Back end is probably mostly Python/Java/C/C++ now depending. For mobile development it depends. Objective-C/Swift for iOS and Java/some Kotlin for Android.

I have mostly worked in C/C++ in my career. I have done after that depending ASM early days, Pascal, Java, C#, Fortran, COBOL CISCS, Python, Eiffel, Erlang, JavaScript, various web tech, lots of PHP, lots of Perl, Ruby.

I am sure I missing something, but honestly these days you only a C based language, JavaScript, Python, and a mobile platform of choice so Java/Swift depending. Just depends on what your focus us.
 

Obiwan

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There is some truth to that, but in a lot of ways I haven't grown up. Certainly love my toys :). Anyway I code almost on a daily basis. I enjoy it. It is thing I do. It is almost like meditation for me. The harder the problem, the more I enjoy it. Then there are periods where I just go away for a while and don't tough the laptop, write much code, full of grid and travel. Also love that.

In doing my cryptocurrency research I became aware of a number of legal hurdles that I need to navigate, particularly as I intend this to be a legitimate cryptocurrency.
Below are some highlights:

The challenge faced by start-ups is that they need capital and the most efficient means of raising capital is to sell tokens. The question is how does one get tokens to sell if you cannot pre-allocate any currency to yourself. The other question is what constitutes legal computing or manufacturing effort as authorized by FinCEN as being legal use of convertible virtual currencies?

Bitcoin Community “Cultural Regulations”

The Bitcoin community has adopted its own informal cultural regulations around how a new cryptocurrency should be launched. The biggest conventions include:
  • No Premine - allocating tokens prior to launch
  • No Instamine - heavily bias issuance toward early miners
  • No IPO/ICO - selling tokens prior to launch
  • Only mine a small amount for yourself
  • Open Source MIT / BSD license
A start-up that attempts to comply with all of the FinCEN regulations AND all of the Bitcoin community cultural regulations finds itself in a pickle. If you reveal enough information about your product with enough warning then the market will speculatively place a high value on your tokens. The higher the value the market places on the tokens, the more capital is wasted on a computational competition to acquire the tokens.

On the other hand, if you comply with FinCEN and ignore the cultural expectations then your token will start out life a pariah and have low initial value. If you completely open source your software then clones can pop up to compete against you.

Anyone been down this path?
 

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I still don't understand why people here want to learn to code!

Spend that time learning to market and write sales copy. Spending 1000 hours to learn to code to spend 200 hours writing an app is STUPID.

Spend the 1000 hours learning to market and write copy, and you can use that skill for the life of the app, plus the life of the next app, and other peoples apps AND it makes you money. Writing code just means you have something, but it won't sell itself.

Here is how it will work if you learn to code:
1000 hours learning to code.
200 hours writing an app.
wait for a sale, wait some more, wait some more.
Spend 1000 hours learning to market and write copy.
sell some of your app
spend 150 hours fixing bugs and responding to support issues because your app is crap because it takes 5000 hours to really learn how to code.
get frustrated and yank your app because of the PITA factor and all the bad reviews of your app.


Learn to market and write copy:
1000 hours learning to market and write code, while that 1000 hours is going on, pay someone that has 10,000 hours of training on apps to write your app.
Start marketing your app immediately.
Sell lots of your app.
Pass any support issues to the developer
Sell lots more of your app.
Create 3 more apps and market the hell out of them
Go to the bank often to deposit checks.

Do you SEE the difference????

I can totally get what you want to say.
If you are totally focussed on efficiency in terms of money/time, learning to code isn't the best thing if you aren't into it anyway.

If you want to have a business though, build up by selfmade apps/want to create a social media platform from nothing and are passionate about it you should definetly learn to code. I for myself love to create things from scratch. Just to be able to get in front of my computer and create something purely by my own knowledge is impressive for me. Some people might get this feeling from resell marketing, some just from the things you said.

TL;DR - People should not learn to code, if they only do it for the dollars.
 

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Over my long career I have used many languages so it is hard to say. These days I used JavaScript/TypeScript and HTML5/CSS for all my Front End work. Back end is probably mostly Python/Java/C/C++ now depending. For mobile development it depends. Objective-C/Swift for iOS and Java/some Kotlin for Android.

I have mostly worked in C/C++ in my career. I have done after that depending ASM early days, Pascal, Java, C#, Fortran, COBOL CISCS, Python, Eiffel, Erlang, JavaScript, various web tech, lots of PHP, lots of Perl, Ruby.

I am sure I missing something, but honestly these days you only a C based language, JavaScript, Python, and a mobile platform of choice so Java/Swift depending. Just depends on what your focus us.
I started with JS 6 months ago, dabbled with some PHP and now I'm learning Ruby.

My problem is I have difficulties to understand the basics of programming. What language would you recommend to start with and grow further to other languages?
 

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I started with JS 6 months ago, dabbled with some PHP and now I'm learning Ruby.

My problem is I have difficulties to understand the basics of programming. What language would you recommend to start with and grow further to other languages?
Hey Anton,

I'll skim in here with my opinion as a fairly new player to programming. I've started & tried so many languages at once, that I got burned/bored out of programming for a while. The 'best' language is the language that suits both you & the projects you're working on. You're working on websites? Html/JS. Data Science/Machine learning? R or Python etc.

Nevertheless, I've also tried to answer your question and I came to the conclusion: Python. It's variable & complete enough to shine in different areas, yet simple enough to learn fast & not get lost in too technical details like C/C++ etc. goes. The only downside I feel now is that I'll still lack knowledge on certain subjects in programming, like pointers etc. My focus is on Machine Learning though, so Python is a no-brainer. If you want to stick to websites Ruby or Python are both nice.

Just one piece of advice: pick a language and stick to it. If you "master" one language, you'll learn other languages way faster. And mastering isn't knowing the syntax, as that can be completed in a matter of hours/days. Oh and make sure you learn SQL along the way. It's simply, high in demand and super handy.
 

RogueInnovation

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I know all the basics, been doing it for 50 years, but if you want to get a major project done, gotta look at the bigger picture.
I only meant what I said as a rule of thumb for entreprenuers. If you are actually a coding type specialist, then learn all you need for your projects to have a degree of refinement.

For me I learnt some coding, enough to know how it all works and what is going on. I know what proficiencies a job will require and how to judge people fairly based on talent/ability. Because I know that I can confidently help manage a coder or a team without insulting them and properly help manage what is to be done. Obviously in a big project I'd need a right hand man who is brilliant in order to give better advice and better direction to a team. But that is an issue only once a project reaches a large enough scale that you have to do efficiency audits and stuff like that, changing servers and whatever else to perfect the underlying infrastructure of the site.

Initially when you don't have huge traffic you can get away with an OK set up, but as your biz grows, you need very streamlined design.


I think a lot of entrepreneurs struggle with the idea of "what do I do to get better at biz!", and through coding they might think "hey I can just focus on building something!", but just building the site etc only gives you an ability to execute, it doesn't give you awareness of how, or why, or when to do anything. If a guy has those skills though, I think he can be very rapid in his pursuit of success.

I however, could not care less about learning more code. I'm more interested in design and functionality, and working with people to create the best blueprint possible for our budget, goals, and size. I don't need to build the thing, I only need to see WHAT NEEDS TO BE WHERE AND WHEN. Once you know what needs to exist you can put down some cash for it.

I know if something is a one man job, 3 man job, 10 man job.
A one man job is a functional but not too fancy set up
A 3 man job is good looking (cuz you need a designer etc on top of the coder)
A 10 man job is streamlined and perfected (code monkeys, data guys, all of it)
Also, no site is going to be perfect so you need to have an IT guy to manage the site occasionally and review it.

I'm not brilliant, but people can understand what I want and I can set up scenarios where I get it, and where I have appropriate expectations. In that way I can act as a leader and get good men to do good jobs and in that way be professional enough to trim the fat and not overspend on endless revisions because I gave them direction.

Business isn't about getting into the weeds of the code, its just about assuring you have the right tools to do a job.
 

Aaron T

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I started with JS 6 months ago, dabbled with some PHP and now I'm learning Ruby.

My problem is I have difficulties to understand the basics of programming. What language would you recommend to start with and grow further to other languages?
These days I say absolutely Python. The data structures are all there. The language is excessively clear and easy to understand too. You also can quite far with Python so it is not throw away. It is key.
 

Obiwan

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I only meant what I said as a rule of thumb for entreprenuers. If you are actually a coding type specialist, then learn all you need for your projects to have a degree of refinement.

For me I learnt some coding, enough to know how it all works and what is going on. I know what proficiencies a job will require and how to judge people fairly based on talent/ability. Because I know that I can confidently help manage a coder or a team without insulting them and properly help manage what is to be done. Obviously in a big project I'd need a right hand man who is brilliant in order to give better advice and better direction to a team. But that is an issue only once a project reaches a large enough scale that you have to do efficiency audits and stuff like that, changing servers and whatever else to perfect the underlying infrastructure of the site.

Initially when you don't have huge traffic you can get away with an OK set up, but as your biz grows, you need very streamlined design.


I think a lot of entrepreneurs struggle with the idea of "what do I do to get better at biz!", and through coding they might think "hey I can just focus on building something!", but just building the site etc only gives you an ability to execute, it doesn't give you awareness of how, or why, or when to do anything. If a guy has those skills though, I think he can be very rapid in his pursuit of success.

I however, could not care less about learning more code. I'm more interested in design and functionality, and working with people to create the best blueprint possible for our budget, goals, and size. I don't need to build the thing, I only need to see WHAT NEEDS TO BE WHERE AND WHEN. Once you know what needs to exist you can put down some cash for it.

I know if something is a one man job, 3 man job, 10 man job.
A one man job is a functional but not too fancy set up
A 3 man job is good looking (cuz you need a designer etc on top of the coder)
A 10 man job is streamlined and perfected (code monkeys, data guys, all of it)
Also, no site is going to be perfect so you need to have an IT guy to manage the site occasionally and review it.

I'm not brilliant, but people can understand what I want and I can set up scenarios where I get it, and where I have appropriate expectations. In that way I can act as a leader and get good men to do good jobs and in that way be professional enough to trim the fat and not overspend on endless revisions because I gave them direction.

Business isn't about getting into the weeds of the code, its just about assuring you have the right tools to do a job.
Well, you just said, in greater clarity, what I tried to say in one sentence. :p

I'm done with the coding for a major project. I'm like you, I want to direct the flow of traffic, not drive the f$#@% bus! There is just so much happening in the tech world, and so fast, that I have admitted my limitations to myself.

I have a team:
I have a marketing guy in the appropriate demographic.
I have a financial guy in the appropriate demographic (so we can present to the bank).
I have another financial guy.
I have a social media women.
I have a graphic designer.
Then there is me, I guess you would call me the project leader, and the brains behind the whole project.
But I have no coders.
It's not that I can't find coders, I can find some of the best coders in India, but I don't trust them.

That's my dilemma! I am working on a solution, but it will have to wait till after my meeting with the bank.

Any suggestions from the "The band of brothers" gratefully accepted.
 

GastonEE

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I still don't understand why people here want to learn to code!

Spend that time learning to market and write sales copy. Spending 1000 hours to learn to code to spend 200 hours writing an app is STUPID.

Spend the 1000 hours learning to market and write copy, and you can use that skill for the life of the app, plus the life of the next app, and other peoples apps AND it makes you money. Writing code just means you have something, but it won't sell itself.

Here is how it will work if you learn to code:
1000 hours learning to code.
200 hours writing an app.
wait for a sale, wait some more, wait some more.
Spend 1000 hours learning to market and write copy.
sell some of your app
spend 150 hours fixing bugs and responding to support issues because your app is crap because it takes 5000 hours to really learn how to code.
get frustrated and yank your app because of the PITA factor and all the bad reviews of your app.


Learn to market and write copy:
1000 hours learning to market and write code, while that 1000 hours is going on, pay someone that has 10,000 hours of training on apps to write your app.
Start marketing your app immediately.
Sell lots of your app.
Pass any support issues to the developer
Sell lots more of your app.
Create 3 more apps and market the hell out of them
Go to the bank often to deposit checks.

Do you SEE the difference????
WOW! So emotional post. But have you thought that somebody adores to spend 10000 hours on coding and then provide you with apps. A lot of people are really talented in programming.
If you're hate it, so you're right, hire a programmer and find more useful for you activity.
 

Aaron T

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Well, you just said, in greater clarity, what I tried to say in one sentence. :p

I'm done with the coding for a major project. I'm like you, I want to direct the flow of traffic, not drive the f$#@% bus! There is just so much happening in the tech world, and so fast, that I have admitted my limitations to myself.

I have a team:
I have a marketing guy in the appropriate demographic.
I have a financial guy in the appropriate demographic (so we can present to the bank).
I have another financial guy.
I have a social media women.
I have a graphic designer.
Then there is me, I guess you would call me the project leader, and the brains behind the whole project.
But I have no coders.
It's not that I can't find coders, I can find some of the best coders in India, but I don't trust them.

That's my dilemma! I am working on a solution, but it will have to wait till after my meeting with the bank.

Any suggestions from the "The band of brothers" gratefully accepted.
I was curious if you have no coders because of funding or is it other reasons. If it is funding, then there are a lot of ways you can get some good coders to work for you. You will have to sell your vision and give the first ones more of the company/idea than you might think simply because that is the way of things right now.

If it is for other reasons then that is different. Maybe the idea is too weak. Maybe you are not able to reach out to the right developers.

Currently I know a lot of very good developers including some with blockchain experience. Not including myself, I know that they are all pretty damn busy because the demand for programmers is quite high, and pool of talented, even untalented ones very low. The really entrepreneurial ones are already working on their own ideas and/or hedging bets with someone that gave them huge positions in an obtainable believable vision (and quite frankly 90% of those startups with fail.)

My only real advice to you, specially since you are a programmer yourself is this at the moment. Without a product, even a super simple MMVP/Prototype to get other programmers involved it is going to be hard. You don't need any of those other people involved. I don't know of any developers that would jump in with another entrepreneur developer that hasn't written the basic system yet. Even something conceptually. By doing that a little bit you will earn trust with them and you will get some to jump on your boat and go along for the ride.

You are correct in trusting most Indian Developers, but if they were good coder, programmers, developers then they would trustworthy. I have an excellent shop in India, and an even better one in the Philippines, and a top tier one based in Ukraine. They all come with different prices and all are trustworthy. If you need a group to do the development and money is an issue and you don't want try to sell the vision to hard, then go with the Philippines. If you want OK developers, high turnover, and having to provide extreme requirements and details with hand holding, then India. If you have money, want some scary good code, Ukraine. My experiences.

What I would do is define the vision and learn enough minimal coding around the area to get a Minimal MVP together and start selling that vision to other developers. Unfortunately for you they are the single most valuable resource. The hardest to get for what you want. Also you have no business without them. I mean outside of your own developmental experience. You might not do it much anymore or you might think it is to hard to perfect (with blockchain it is hard, but not too hard) but you will probably need to do a lot of this on your own initially.

Frankly I don't Angel invest on these ideas without it being much further along. It is just at idea stage. If you want this bad enough, and I don't doubt you do, you might need to just start coding and get it as far as you can. To that end this article is a great start from Hackernoon: Learn Blockchains by Building One – Hacker Noon

Seriously good read and will get you along further on the technical end. Might help. Heck maybe you can even reach out to the author.
 

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