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GOLD Learning to Program is STUPID! (or SMART?!)

Discussion in 'Business Models, Niches, Industries' started by healthstatus, Jul 14, 2012.

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  1. healthstatus
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    healthstatus Gold Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    I still don't understand why people here want to learn to code!

    Spend that time learning to market and write sales copy. Spending 1000 hours to learn to code to spend 200 hours writing an app is STUPID.

    Spend the 1000 hours learning to market and write copy, and you can use that skill for the life of the app, plus the life of the next app, and other peoples apps AND it makes you money. Writing code just means you have something, but it won't sell itself.

    Here is how it will work if you learn to code:
    1000 hours learning to code.
    200 hours writing an app.
    wait for a sale, wait some more, wait some more.
    Spend 1000 hours learning to market and write copy.
    sell some of your app
    spend 150 hours fixing bugs and responding to support issues because your app is crap because it takes 5000 hours to really learn how to code.
    get frustrated and yank your app because of the PITA factor and all the bad reviews of your app.


    Learn to market and write copy:
    1000 hours learning to market and write code, while that 1000 hours is going on, pay someone that has 10,000 hours of training on apps to write your app.
    Start marketing your app immediately.
    Sell lots of your app.
    Pass any support issues to the developer
    Sell lots more of your app.
    Create 3 more apps and market the hell out of them
    Go to the bank often to deposit checks.

    Do you SEE the difference????
     
  2. theag
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    theag Most Aggressive Guy on the Internet on the Planet Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR

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    Thanks for posting this, I can't agree more!

    I always cringe when people write that they want to learn how to code. Its not worth it. It takes too long and as soon as you learned the basics there are 1000 things that changed on the technology side. Learn marketing and sales. Use your time to find a need. Don't learn to program if you want to be an entrepreneur. Even the great entrepreneurs in technology only coded the first prototype themselves and then let the specialists take over.

    That said, I think every internet/technology entrepreneur should know about the basic technologies that his business is based on. The people wanting to start an ecommerce empire without knowing how to set up a site themselves are just as bad as the guys wanting to learn programming. This is also vital if you're eventually outsourcing/hiring for the technology/programming part, you won't get what you want/need if you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
     
  3. CryptO
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    CryptO Silver Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass

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    Luckily I realised this early.

    I study copy, it opens doors. I team with coders.
     
  4. LamboMP
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    LamboMP Bronze Contributor Speedway Pass

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    They learn how to code because they have no capital.
     
  5. CryptO
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    CryptO Silver Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass

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    There are plenty of other ways around that!
     
  6. LamboMP
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    LamboMP Bronze Contributor Speedway Pass

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    Without giving up ownership....
     
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  7. healthstatus
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    healthstatus Gold Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    People try and justify learning to code by saying they don't have enough money to pay for app development. (and when I say app I mean any computer/web/phone code). If you learn to write copy, you can sell an affiliate product, or just write good text ads and make enough to pay for your app development.

    I made my living for 20 years writing code and managing programmers, I have made a MUCH better living now that I write good copy. I know what I am talking about.

    I have a couple of trips coming up, and I already have my sales letters ready to go to sell three different products from my website, these will generate me several thousand dollars of spending money for my trips. Learning to write good sales copy is like turning your computer into an ATM.
     
  8. LamboMP
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    LamboMP Bronze Contributor Speedway Pass

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    Some people like doing it themselves healthstatus. :)
     
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  9. CryptO
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    CryptO Silver Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass

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    You don't have to give up ownership if you don't want to.

    Trade of services becomes very possible

    Also, a good copywriter makes a bucket load more than a good programmer.

    Think $1000 for 2 hours work.
     
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  10. Pete799p
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    Pete799p Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    This is something I have been interested in for some time. I have been doing alot of reading but I find it hard to wade through the guru IM stuff and the real stuff. Do you recommend any resources to help learn good copywriting skills or is it just one of those trail and error things.

    Thank you
     
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  11. CryptO
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    CryptO Silver Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass

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    SOME of the books recommended to me by a pro copywriter.

    However if you want to accelerate you'll need to pay for a mentor

    "Scientific Advertising" Claude Hopkins

    "Tested Advertising" Caples (4th edition or earlier only)

    "How I Raised Myself from a Failure to Success in Selling" Betger

    "How to Write a Good Advertisement" Schwab.

    "How to Write Sales Letters That Sell" Drayton Bird

    "The Robert Collier Letter Book" - by Robert Collier

    "Tested Advertising Methods" -by John Caples

    "The Lazy Man's Way to Riches" - by Joe Karbo

    "Break-Through Advertising" - by Eugene M. Schwartz

    "Advertising Secrets of The Written Word" by Joe Sugarman

    "Making Ads Pay" by John Caples

    Web Copy That Sells by Maria Veloso

    The Architecture of Persuasion by Michael Masterson

    Influence The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini

    The Adweek Copywriting Handbook by Joe Sugarman

    "The Elements of Copywriting" by Gary Blake and Robert Bly

    "The Ultimate Sales Letter" by Dan Kennedy

    Cashvertising by Drew Eric Whitman

    "Write to sell " it is written by Andy Maslen

    "Influencing Human Behaviour" by H.A.

    "Tested Sentences That Sell" by Elmer Wheeler

    "Unlimited Selling Power" by Moine and Lloyd.

    Writing for Emotional Impact by Karl Iglesias

    Bob Bly's "The Copywriter's Handbook"

    How To Make Your Advertising Make Money - John Caples

    The Copywriters Handbook - Bob Bly

    The Adweek Copywriting Handbook - Joseph Sugarman

    Sales Letters That Sizzle - Herschell Gordon Lewis

    Cash Copy - Jeffrey Lant

    Magic Words That Bring You Riches - Ted Nicholas

    Ogilvy On Advertising

    Method Marketing by Denny Hatch.

    My First 50 Years in Advertising by Maxwell Sackheim.

    The Greatest Direct Mail Sales Letters of all Time " by Richard Hodgson.

    How To Write Advertising That Sells by Clyde Bedell

    Ads That Sell by Bob Bly

    Advertising Headlines That Make You Rich-- David Garfinkle

    Magic Words-- Ted Nicholas

    Robert Collier Letter Book-- Robert Collier

    My Life In Advertising -- Claude Hopkins

    Bird - Commonsense

    The First Hundred Million by E. Haldeman-Julius

    David Ogilvy's "Blood, Brains and Beer"

    "Confessions of an advertising man"

    "Million Dollar Mailings" by Denison Hatch

    "The Wizard of Ads" trilogy by Roy H. Williams

    Making Ads Pay by John Caples

    Method Marketing - Denison Hatch

    "How to Write Sales Letters that Sell" by Drayton Bird.

    Hypnotic Writing -- Joe Vitale

    "The Lazy Man's Way to Riches" - by Joe Karbo

    Denny Hatch's Million Dollar Mailings
     
  12. Whole Paradigm
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    Whole Paradigm Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass

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    Love ya healthstatus but I disagree,

    I'm learning how to code as we speak. Have been for a while now. I love learning this just as much as I enjoy learning about all other aspects of business. Instead of saying that learning something you want to learn is "stupid", perhaps you should say that it wasn't beneficial to YOU. To tell anyone that learning anything is stupid is in fact, stupid, and I know you're smarter than that.

    I also enjoy learning how to cook, speak different languages, sew, and a million other things. I'm not stupid I'm enlightened and interested.



    All the best,

    Cory
     
  13. AllenCrawley
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    AllenCrawley Legendary Contributor Staff Member Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    Thanks Alty. This looks like a great list. I actually have a couple listed here but there are some that I didn't know about.
     
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  14. The-J
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    The-J Legendary Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    Programming is a good idea if you want to program.

    It's not a good idea if you want to build businesses efficiently.
     
  15. EastWind
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    EastWind Bronze Contributor Speedway Pass

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    google guys? coded it themselves.
    facebook guys? coded it themselves
    ebay guys? coded it themselves
    hotmail? coded it themselves
    pinterest owners? coded it themselves
    microsoft? coded it themselves.
    reddit?
    slashdot?
    yahoo?
    paypal?
    and the list goes on.

    the major owner's wrote the first version/prototypes themselves, before they started hiring programmers.

    if you want to make billions upon billions, you better learn to code!
    if you are shooting for 6, 7 figures, then programming is stupid.
     
  16. deepestblue
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    deepestblue Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass

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    I would think that the CHANCES of having a super successful business are better if one learns copy vs. coding.

    To expand on the initial posting, once a person learns copywriting/marketing/sales, they can outsource the development of as many products as they can write for (or pay other copywriters to write for once they learned what works).

    Ty to Alty for the list of books above: With that list he has provided anyone with the time, inclination and effort the ability to have a very successful life. Coding standards change by the second. But as Claude Hopkins stated in the best copywriting book of all time, "the principles set down in this book are as enduring as the Alps."
     
  17. theag
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    theag Most Aggressive Guy on the Internet on the Planet Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR

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    Thats absolutely right. But the fact that you and others who are pro-code-learning ignore is that all those famous technology founders who coded themselves were programmers BEFORE they even thought about starting a business. They were programmers and saw a need in the market to put their skills to use. Not the other way around as people on this board.

    Don't get me wrong, I think programming/web development is a great skill to have as an entrepreneur. I started building websites etc when I was 10 or 11, back when the web was completely different. And this experience definitely helps me in my thinking today. But if I would start today I wouldn't learn how to program, because there are enough cheap programmers available to build a prototype for you. What I would learn though are the big picture concepts of web/app development, tools like mockup-creation, be familiar with the technologies out there (e.g. know what programming/scripting languages exist and what they are used for, understand different database concepts, sql vs. nosql etc). Don't learn programming, but learn how to work with programmers to achieve the results you want.
     
  18. FastNAwesome
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    FastNAwesome Silver Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass

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    Speeeeeeed+++ :) Love it.

    Btw. I was a programmer way before I even knew about fastlane, so I somehow don't feel competent to give opinions in this thread. Just love the post.
     
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  19. theag
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    theag Most Aggressive Guy on the Internet on the Planet Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR

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    The difference is, as you say yourself, that you learn coding as an aspect of business. You learn how to code to make money, you learn how to code because you think it will help you in business. This is completely different from learning how to cook or speak other languages. Nobody says that learning is stupid. But to learn programming up to a level where it really helps you, you have to pursue this will 100% time committment, because things are changing everyday in technology and you have to be on top of everything. And if you do that you don't have time to build a business. But it seems like its pointless to discuss this. You have to decide for yourself: do you want to be an entrepreneur or a programmer?

    Take a look at this guy who was on here some months ago and now isn't active anymore. Don't remember his name. He learned how to code in Ruby on Rails and built a website for freelancers which looked nice, worked fine etc. Did everything himself and took him a few months to launch. As far as I remember it didnt really work out for him (no updates from him and on his blog for half a year), because not enough people were using the site (big surprise, because there are enough freelancer sites). So he ended up taking a job as a programmer with his new skills. Great. All this learning to get a job. If he had focussed on doing proper research if theres a need for the 100th freelancer site instead of learning how to code he would be in a different situation now, maybe with a successful business. If you want to go that route, sure, go on.
     
  20. CryptO
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    CryptO Silver Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass

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    Learn advertising and team up or pay programmers, it will save you a ton of time and headaches

    I am a builder of property in real life (offline world).

    Every millionaire property developer that I shake hands with, has never got their hands dirty on a site.

    Why do people think building websites should be any different?

    The person who owns the property makes the money, not the builder
     
  21. Pat
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    I am pretty sure he learned to code because the coder he had hired did not deliver.

    Now don't get me wrong, I am not advocating that everyone should learn to program. It took me years to get good at it and I still have a lot to learn. But outsourcing is also not as easy as it sounds (unless you get really lucky).

    If your business requires advanced programming and it's not something you want to learn, then you better have a lot of money to pay your programmer and/or are prepared to give up equity. If not, then you are in the wrong business and you should look for something more suitable for your situation.

    Thinking about it, too many people want to succeed online nowadays. I am not going to open up a bakery without any experience in the field. Same should apply to all the wanna be online entrepreneurs on here.

    If you really wanna succeed online, you better get some experience in affiliate marketing or somewhere similar before diving in deep without any clue about anything.
     
  22. healthstatus
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    healthstatus Gold Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    and EVERYONE on your list had YEARS of programming experience when they wrote their code. Nobody on the list learned to code their app 3 months ahead of time, then they ALL struggled until they got hooked up with someone that helped them market, either an incubator, VC or marketing partner. I would also highly discount any of your companies over 6 years old, that was the wild west days of the Internet and you could have crappy stuff and people would tolerate it.

    BTW Microsoft modified code they bought from someone else, Gates did not write all that code.

    For those that are yapping that learning is not stupid but fulfilling, why are you here? This is the FASTLANE forum, if you want to get ahead faster and quicker I am telling you how to save yourself a BUNCH of time and heartache by informing you where to concentrate your time. The odds of anybody over the age of twenty that doesn't know how to code right now, will learn enough code to create a successful app by themselves are huge.

    If you want to learn to make money, you focus on the things that make you money, learning to code and writing code is not money making.
     
  23. theag
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    theag Most Aggressive Guy on the Internet on the Planet Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR

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    Yea, I think you're right. But thats not really a reason to learn coding. It just shows that you need a certain level of high level technology knowledge to judge who you are hiring.

    Very happy to finally hear this from somebody who is actually a TRAINED programmer.

    Absolutely right. The way it should be is: Idea -> High level technology knowledge -> Cheap MVP prototype -> Proof rough product/market-fit-> Hire programmer for equity (unrealistic) or get investment based on prototype and hire programmer (more realistic)

    I completely agree. Most people on here that want to start a web or app business have absolutely no idea what it involves and start with the wrong things. They read about outsourcing in some success-story or book and quickly hire somebody and send them a few instructions about their idea. Sometimes this works, most times it doesn't and they give up.
     
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  24. theag
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    theag Most Aggressive Guy on the Internet on the Planet Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR

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    Great post! speed++

    But I think you mistyped: "The odds of anybody over the age of twenty that doesn't know how to code right now, will learn enough code to create a successful app by themselves are very slim."
     
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  25. bigtamale
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    Pretty decent advice here.

    I'm new and have no cred but have been in the software as a service business for years. I'd say that I was an entrepreneur before hack but that's only because I believe I was born one. My earliest thoughts were of hustle.

    If you some guys are straight up who entrepreneurs think you can survive without technical knowledge just by throwing money at problems, you'd be wrong. Unless you've got a best friend that fills the nerd vacuum inside your soul.

    You'll always have faulty (not buggy) code that doesn't do what you originally intended.
    You'll always feel like programmers are stupid, and the feeling will be reciprocated (great atmosphere)
    You'll have major problems changing gears and replacing this "disposable" commodity.
    You'll never have quick bug turnarounds in a live environment.
    ... and worst of all, you'll always delay shipping code. Which is what gets everyone paid.

    Good advice would be to take a weekend and pay a really, really good programmer to give you an intensive training on a LAMP stack (normal hosting environment) and some kind of overview on basic concepts of programming (database connection & interraction, arrays, loops & scraping).

    It's completely possible and understandable that you'd leave that training session with a headache in need of a vacation ... but the truth is, you'll have seen inside the black box and will have a MUCH better idea of what all is possible. You'll also be able to communicate better with the people who are building the software that builds your bank account.

    ... or you can keep spinning your wheels thinking you know better. Your call.