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GOLD! Learning to Program is STUPID! (or SMART?!)

Blaise84

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There are plenty of other ways around that!
What are your suggestions as ways around that? I'm in this exact situation. Starting up with a low budget. Would love to hear your thoughts...
 

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Aaron T

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I don't understand why it takes 1000 hours to learn coding. It's not that hard.
Oh it is really easy to learn and get started, but 1000 hours in to learning you won't even be close to mastering it if you ever could master programming.

1000 hours is the figure usually give (6 months full time study roughly) that has a person from no knowledge to actually being able to contribute well. Some people do it in less time. Some in a lot more time. It is just a number. Don't get hung up on it.
 

WildFlower

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Oh it is really easy to learn and get started, but 1000 hours in to learning you won't even be close to mastering it if you ever could master programming.

1000 hours is the figure usually give (6 months full time study roughly) that has a person from no knowledge to actually being able to contribute well. Some people do it in less time. Some in a lot more time. It is just a number. Don't get hung up on it.
They just said to learn. You don't need to master it to get results, but I get what you saying. That is true for anything and it's more than 1,000 hours for sure. Especially in a field where it is constantly changing. I highly recommend learning to code even if you hire someone. I can't tell you how many bad programmers I have come across and cleaned up after. UGH. AND they were charging a crazy $300 an hour but yet their code broke over simple problems.
 

Siloa

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Am I right answering this old topic? If not, tell me, I'll delete my post :)

This is a pretty interesting question I keep asking myself from time to time.
For the record, I have knwoledge in web development, I built several websites several years ago, it was easy : Procedural PHP, HTML/CSS, jQuery for AJAX purposes and dynamical stuff, and so on. One of my websites is about to be 10 years old next year, it is still running, performances are ok, not complex but with several interesting features.

Today, being a developer seems to me way more complicated. First I had to learn about OOP and the learning curve (if you want to use a framework) is way slower. And back in the days, you had to install WAMP/MAMP/LAMP and you had everything you needed to start developing. Try now, you need a VM, you need to understand many things that are way more complicated: grunt, gulp, framework, middleware (WTF?), git, sass/less, etc.
I tried to learn Laravel lately, I can achieve the same features in 10x less time in Procedural PHP and fonctions than with Laravel... (today)

Anyone intested could do some developments in the past. Now it seems to me that it is a JOB entirely.

I also think that being able to draft a prototype, a proof of concept of a solution, for an entrepreneur is a good thing. I would love to learn about NodeJS and build a fast and furious app for my future business, and if the clients love it, there will be enough time to hire a bunch of crazy developers to make it real and complete. Also, coding always helped me clear things about the features. The vision before the code and the vision after are different. Coding helps me get things clearer.

I also believe that if you want to start a business with no funding, coding youself is a solution.
Don't you think?
 

Obiwan

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I was curious if you have no coders because of funding or is it other reasons. If it is funding, then there are a lot of ways you can get some good coders to work for you. You will have to sell your vision and give the first ones more of the company/idea than you might think simply because that is the way of things right now.

If it is for other reasons then that is different. Maybe the idea is too weak. Maybe you are not able to reach out to the right developers.

Currently I know a lot of very good developers including some with blockchain experience. Not including myself, I know that they are all pretty damn busy because the demand for programmers is quite high, and pool of talented, even untalented ones very low. The really entrepreneurial ones are already working on their own ideas and/or hedging bets with someone that gave them huge positions in an obtainable believable vision (and quite frankly 90% of those startups with fail.)

My only real advice to you, specially since you are a programmer yourself is this at the moment. Without a product, even a super simple MMVP/Prototype to get other programmers involved it is going to be hard. You don't need any of those other people involved. I don't know of any developers that would jump in with another entrepreneur developer that hasn't written the basic system yet. Even something conceptually. By doing that a little bit you will earn trust with them and you will get some to jump on your boat and go along for the ride.

You are correct in trusting most Indian Developers, but if they were good coder, programmers, developers then they would trustworthy. I have an excellent shop in India, and an even better one in the Philippines, and a top tier one based in Ukraine. They all come with different prices and all are trustworthy. If you need a group to do the development and money is an issue and you don't want try to sell the vision to hard, then go with the Philippines. If you want OK developers, high turnover, and having to provide extreme requirements and details with hand holding, then India. If you have money, want some scary good code, Ukraine. My experiences.

What I would do is define the vision and learn enough minimal coding around the area to get a Minimal MVP together and start selling that vision to other developers. Unfortunately for you they are the single most valuable resource. The hardest to get for what you want. Also you have no business without them. I mean outside of your own developmental experience. You might not do it much anymore or you might think it is to hard to perfect (with blockchain it is hard, but not too hard) but you will probably need to do a lot of this on your own initially.

Frankly I don't Angel invest on these ideas without it being much further along. It is just at idea stage. If you want this bad enough, and I don't doubt you do, you might need to just start coding and get it as far as you can. To that end this article is a great start from Hackernoon: Learn Blockchains by Building One – Hacker Noon

Seriously good read and will get you along further on the technical end. Might help. Heck maybe you can even reach out to the author.
Aaron, thanks a ton for your in depth analysis, and sorry for the long time being absent from this forum.

To answer your questions/observations
I was curious if you have no coders because of funding or is it other reasons. If it is funding, then there are a lot of ways you can get some good coders to work for you. You will have to sell your vision and give the first ones more of the company/idea than you might think simply because that is the way of things right now.

If it is for other reasons then that is different. Maybe the idea is too weak. Maybe you are not able to reach out to the right developers.

Currently I know a lot of very good developers including some with blockchain experience. Not including myself, I know that they are all pretty damn busy because the demand for programmers is quite high, and pool of talented, even untalented ones very low. The really entrepreneurial ones are already working on their own ideas and/or hedging bets with someone that gave them huge positions in an obtainable believable vision (and quite frankly 90% of those startups with fail.)

My only real advice to you, specially since you are a programmer yourself is this at the moment. Without a product, even a super simple MMVP/Prototype to get other programmers involved it is going to be hard. You don't need any of those other people involved. I don't know of any developers that would jump in with another entrepreneur developer that hasn't written the basic system yet. Even something conceptually. By doing that a little bit you will earn trust with them and you will get some to jump on your boat and go along for the ride.

You are correct in trusting most Indian Developers, but if they were good coder, programmers, developers then they would trustworthy. I have an excellent shop in India, and an even better one in the Philippines, and a top tier one based in Ukraine. They all come with different prices and all are trustworthy. If you need a group to do the development and money is an issue and you don't want try to sell the vision to hard, then go with the Philippines. If you want OK developers, high turnover, and having to provide extreme requirements and details with hand holding, then India. If you have money, want some scary good code, Ukraine. My experiences.

What I would do is define the vision and learn enough minimal coding around the area to get a Minimal MVP together and start selling that vision to other developers. Unfortunately for you they are the single most valuable resource. The hardest to get for what you want. Also you have no business without them. I mean outside of your own developmental experience. You might not do it much anymore or you might think it is to hard to perfect (with blockchain it is hard, but not too hard) but you will probably need to do a lot of this on your own initially.

Frankly I don't Angel invest on these ideas without it being much further along. It is just at idea stage. If you want this bad enough, and I don't doubt you do, you might need to just start coding and get it as far as you can. To that end this article is a great start from Hackernoon: Learn Blockchains by Building One – Hacker Noon

Seriously good read and will get you along further on the technical end. Might help. Heck maybe you can even reach out to the author.
Aaron, thanks a ton for your analysis, and sorry for the long time absence from this forum.

To answer your questions/observations:

I was curious if you have no coders because of funding or is it other reasons. If it is funding, then there are a lot of ways you can get some good coders to work for you. You will have to sell your vision and give the first ones more of the company/idea than you might think simply because that is the way of things right now.

If it is for other reasons then that is different. Maybe the idea is too weak. Maybe you are not able to reach out to the right developers.

Currently I know a lot of very good developers including some with blockchain experience. Not including myself, I know that they are all pretty damn busy because the demand for programmers is quite high, and pool of talented, even untalented ones very low. The really entrepreneurial ones are already working on their own ideas and/or hedging bets with someone that gave them huge positions in an obtainable believable vision (and quite frankly 90% of those startups with fail.)

My only real advice to you, specially since you are a programmer yourself is this at the moment. Without a product, even a super simple MMVP/Prototype to get other programmers involved it is going to be hard. You don't need any of those other people involved. I don't know of any developers that would jump in with another entrepreneur developer that hasn't written the basic system yet. Even something conceptually. By doing that a little bit you will earn trust with them and you will get some to jump on your boat and go along for the ride.

You are correct in trusting most Indian Developers, but if they were good coder, programmers, developers then they would trustworthy. I have an excellent shop in India, and an even better one in the Philippines, and a top tier one based in Ukraine. They all come with different prices and all are trustworthy. If you need a group to do the development and money is an issue and you don't want try to sell the vision to hard, then go with the Philippines. If you want OK developers, high turnover, and having to provide extreme requirements and details with hand holding, then India. If you have money, want some scary good code, Ukraine. My experiences.

What I would do is define the vision and learn enough minimal coding around the area to get a Minimal MVP together and start selling that vision to other developers. Unfortunately for you they are the single most valuable resource. The hardest to get for what you want. Also you have no business without them. I mean outside of your own developmental experience. You might not do it much anymore or you might think it is to hard to perfect (with blockchain it is hard, but not too hard) but you will probably need to do a lot of this on your own initially.

Frankly I don't Angel invest on these ideas without it being much further along. It is just at idea stage. If you want this bad enough, and I don't doubt you do, you might need to just start coding and get it as far as you can. To that end this article is a great start from Hackernoon: Learn Blockchains by Building One – Hacker Noon

Seriously good read and will get you along further on the technical end. Might help. Heck maybe you can even reach out to the author.
I was curious if you have no coders because of funding or is it other reasons. If it is funding, then there are a lot of ways you can get some good coders to work for you. You will have to sell your vision and give the first ones more of the company/idea than you might think simply because that is the way of things right now.

If it is for other reasons then that is different. Maybe the idea is too weak. Maybe you are not able to reach out to the right developers.

Currently I know a lot of very good developers including some with blockchain experience. Not including myself, I know that they are all pretty damn busy because the demand for programmers is quite high, and pool of talented, even untalented ones very low. The really entrepreneurial ones are already working on their own ideas and/or hedging bets with someone that gave them huge positions in an obtainable believable vision (and quite frankly 90% of those startups with fail.)

My only real advice to you, specially since you are a programmer yourself is this at the moment. Without a product, even a super simple MMVP/Prototype to get other programmers involved it is going to be hard. You don't need any of those other people involved. I don't know of any developers that would jump in with another entrepreneur developer that hasn't written the basic system yet. Even something conceptually. By doing that a little bit you will earn trust with them and you will get some to jump on your boat and go along for the ride.

You are correct in trusting most Indian Developers, but if they were good coder, programmers, developers then they would trustworthy. I have an excellent shop in India, and an even better one in the Philippines, and a top tier one based in Ukraine. They all come with different prices and all are trustworthy. If you need a group to do the development and money is an issue and you don't want try to sell the vision to hard, then go with the Philippines. If you want OK developers, high turnover, and having to provide extreme requirements and details with hand holding, then India. If you have money, want some scary good code, Ukraine. My experiences.

What I would do is define the vision and learn enough minimal coding around the area to get a Minimal MVP together and start selling that vision to other developers. Unfortunately for you they are the single most valuable resource. The hardest to get for what you want. Also you have no business without them. I mean outside of your own developmental experience. You might not do it much anymore or you might think it is to hard to perfect (with blockchain it is hard, but not too hard) but you will probably need to do a lot of this on your own initially.

Frankly I don't Angel invest on these ideas without it being much further along. It is just at idea stage. If you want this bad enough, and I don't doubt you do, you might need to just start coding and get it as far as you can. To that end this article is a great start from Hackernoon: Learn Blockchains by Building One – Hacker Noon



Aaron, thanks a ton for your analysis, and sorry for the long time absence from this forum.
To answer your questions/observations:
  1. Yes, funding is the problem. As I have mentioned in previous posts, I’m in negotiations with a bank that may be willing, for reasons that I won’t go into right now, to fund the project. That’s one of the reasons I’ve been absence for some time.
  2. Even if we do manage to get funding I am still very willing to give a large percentage of the business to the developer or developers. It makes good business sense. Rather have your team all bound together because they have a vested interest in making it happen.
  3. We have some of the basic system done. I think I may have mentioned previously that I had a programmer working on the project, but then he was offered a position elsewhere that paid more than we could offer and he decide to leave. At that stage we hadn’t planned to use Blockchain.
  4. I’ve had someone else recommend the Philippines as well.
  5. I must admit I have thought of doing some of the stuff myself, but I need to focus on the bigger picture. Just checked out the: Learn Blockchains by Building One, interesting. The code looks a lot simpler than I thought, but then again this is a simple example.

    Once again thanks for your suggestions.
 

S.Y.

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I read the last few pages and not the entire thread. Apologies if I make an argument that has been discussed in length.

Ironically, someone that would have read the OP post five years ago and decided to focus on mastering coding would today have a skill that is in high demand. Technology is evolving at a crazy pace: machine learning, deep leaning, big data... There are many ways a master coder can generate value. For instance, algorithmic trading & robot advisors are gathering momentum. Applications of Machine learning/deep learning are gathering momentum too. Blockchain as well.

At the same time, I understand the idea behind delegating some coding tasks to professionals. Learning how to code is not necessarily essential to be successful. Depending on where one is, the most important thing can be entirely different: it might be persuading people what you are offering will add value to them or something entirely different.

Personally, I am learning Python. Primarily for fun. Also because I am in finance/investments and I would be able to eventually use it to be more effective. And lastly because in the medium/long term; I would be able to tackle deep learning projects (since the language is used a lot there and re: algorithmic trading).
It is not taking too much of my time currently. About 2hours per week and I am improving at a decent rate. It helps that I have ways to apply it.

TL;DR: Don't think binarily. It is not a yes or no answer. Look at your current situation, reflect and decide.
If you want to learn for fun, go all in.
 

mguerra

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SOME of the books recommended to me by a pro copywriter.

However if you want to accelerate you'll need to pay for a mentor

"Scientific Advertising" Claude Hopkins

"Tested Advertising" Caples (4th edition or earlier only)

"How I Raised Myself from a Failure to Success in Selling" Betger

"How to Write a Good Advertisement" Schwab.

"How to Write Sales Letters That Sell" Drayton Bird

"The Robert Collier Letter Book" - by Robert Collier

"Tested Advertising Methods" -by John Caples

"The Lazy Man's Way to Riches" - by Joe Karbo

"Break-Through Advertising" - by Eugene M. Schwartz

"Advertising Secrets of The Written Word" by Joe Sugarman

"Making Ads Pay" by John Caples

Web Copy That Sells by Maria Veloso

The Architecture of Persuasion by Michael Masterson

Influence The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini

The Adweek Copywriting Handbook by Joe Sugarman

"The Elements of Copywriting" by Gary Blake and Robert Bly

"The Ultimate Sales Letter" by Dan Kennedy

Cashvertising by Drew Eric Whitman

"Write to sell " it is written by Andy Maslen

"Influencing Human Behaviour" by H.A.

"Tested Sentences That Sell" by Elmer Wheeler

"Unlimited Selling Power" by Moine and Lloyd.

Writing for Emotional Impact by Karl Iglesias

Bob Bly's "The Copywriter's Handbook"

How To Make Your Advertising Make Money - John Caples

The Copywriters Handbook - Bob Bly

The Adweek Copywriting Handbook - Joseph Sugarman

Sales Letters That Sizzle - Herschell Gordon Lewis

Cash Copy - Jeffrey Lant

Magic Words That Bring You Riches - Ted Nicholas

Ogilvy On Advertising

Method Marketing by Denny Hatch.

My First 50 Years in Advertising by Maxwell Sackheim.

The Greatest Direct Mail Sales Letters of all Time " by Richard Hodgson.

How To Write Advertising That Sells by Clyde Bedell

Ads That Sell by Bob Bly

Advertising Headlines That Make You Rich-- David Garfinkle

Magic Words-- Ted Nicholas

Robert Collier Letter Book-- Robert Collier

My Life In Advertising -- Claude Hopkins

Bird - Commonsense

The First Hundred Million by E. Haldeman-Julius

David Ogilvy's "Blood, Brains and Beer"

"Confessions of an advertising man"

"Million Dollar Mailings" by Denison Hatch

"The Wizard of Ads" trilogy by Roy H. Williams

Making Ads Pay by John Caples

Method Marketing - Denison Hatch

"How to Write Sales Letters that Sell" by Drayton Bird.

Hypnotic Writing -- Joe Vitale

"The Lazy Man's Way to Riches" - by Joe Karbo

Denny Hatch's Million Dollar Mailings
Oh boy, that's a freaking solid list.If you read only 5 of those I can tell you will be a good writer of copy.
 

Tri Pham

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"Scientific Advertising" Claude Hopkins

"Tested Advertising" Caples (4th edition or earlier only)

"How I Raised Myself from a Failure to Success in Selling" Betger

"How to Write a Good Advertisement" Schwab.

"How to Write Sales Letters That Sell" Drayton Bird

"The Robert Collier Letter Book" - by Robert Collier

"Tested Advertising Methods" -by John Caples

"The Lazy Man's Way to Riches" - by Joe Karbo

"Break-Through Advertising" - by Eugene M. Schwartz

"Advertising Secrets of The Written Word" by Joe Sugarman

"Making Ads Pay" by John Caples

Web Copy That Sells by Maria Veloso

The Architecture of Persuasion by Michael Masterson

Influence The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini

The Adweek Copywriting Handbook by Joe Sugarman

"The Elements of Copywriting" by Gary Blake and Robert Bly

"The Ultimate Sales Letter" by Dan Kennedy

Cashvertising by Drew Eric Whitman

"Write to sell " it is written by Andy Maslen

"Influencing Human Behaviour" by H.A.

"Tested Sentences That Sell" by Elmer Wheeler

"Unlimited Selling Power" by Moine and Lloyd.

Writing for Emotional Impact by Karl Iglesias

Bob Bly's "The Copywriter's Handbook"

How To Make Your Advertising Make Money - John Caples

The Copywriters Handbook - Bob Bly

The Adweek Copywriting Handbook - Joseph Sugarman

Sales Letters That Sizzle - Herschell Gordon Lewis

Cash Copy - Jeffrey Lant

Magic Words That Bring You Riches - Ted Nicholas

Ogilvy On Advertising

Method Marketing by Denny Hatch.

My First 50 Years in Advertising by Maxwell Sackheim.

The Greatest Direct Mail Sales Letters of all Time " by Richard Hodgson.

How To Write Advertising That Sells by Clyde Bedell

Ads That Sell by Bob Bly

Advertising Headlines That Make You Rich-- David Garfinkle

Magic Words-- Ted Nicholas

Robert Collier Letter Book-- Robert Collier

My Life In Advertising -- Claude Hopkins

Bird - Commonsense

The First Hundred Million by E. Haldeman-Julius

David Ogilvy's "Blood, Brains and Beer"

"Confessions of an advertising man"

"Million Dollar Mailings" by Denison Hatch

"The Wizard of Ads" trilogy by Roy H. Williams

Making Ads Pay by John Caples

Method Marketing - Denison Hatch

"How to Write Sales Letters that Sell" by Drayton Bird.

Hypnotic Writing -- Joe Vitale

"The Lazy Man's Way to Riches" - by Joe Karbo

Denny Hatch's Million Dollar Mailings
What a wealth of information. Thanks for the value :)
 

shelton

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I understand that coding might just be a waste of time. But I think being familiar with coding concepts allows entrepreneurs and marketers to create better websites. You don't have to invest too much time into coding or even come close to mastering it in order to understand what kind of website you want to build. In fact knowing about coding will help you evaluate other programmers abilities before you waste time hiring the wrong one.
 

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shelton

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I can't believe the over-focus that this forum *still* has on copywriting. Copywriting is not making a great product...
I agree i think this is a bigger discussion. The real question is do you learn how to sell a product first or do you learn to sell products first.
 

Mainstream7

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I believe more and more that gaining technical knowledge will enable you to create new and innovative products that can solve a lot of problems in the world.
Though in the end it may depend absolutely on your personality, what you do.


Examples:


Science and Engineering - Elon Musk, Tesla

Branding and Design - Angela Ahrendts, Burberry

Design and Human Resources - Chris Do, Blind

Marketing and Advertising - David Ogilvy, Ogilvy & Mather


If you are good at words and love to write copy for different companies, then good, if not, it probably shouldn´t become your main expertise.

I´m sure there are lot of introverts in the forum. They can shine when it comes to gaining technical knowledge, so it wouldn´t be too stupid to learn code, some computer science and engineering, and eventually create a cool product.
 

Audiophile

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SOME of the books recommended to me by a pro copywriter.

However if you want to accelerate you'll need to pay for a mentor

"Scientific Advertising" Claude Hopkins

"Tested Advertising" Caples (4th edition or earlier only)

"How I Raised Myself from a Failure to Success in Selling" Betger

"How to Write a Good Advertisement" Schwab.

"How to Write Sales Letters That Sell" Drayton Bird

"The Robert Collier Letter Book" - by Robert Collier

"Tested Advertising Methods" -by John Caples

"The Lazy Man's Way to Riches" - by Joe Karbo

"Break-Through Advertising" - by Eugene M. Schwartz

"Advertising Secrets of The Written Word" by Joe Sugarman

"Making Ads Pay" by John Caples

Web Copy That Sells by Maria Veloso

The Architecture of Persuasion by Michael Masterson

Influence The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini

The Adweek Copywriting Handbook by Joe Sugarman

"The Elements of Copywriting" by Gary Blake and Robert Bly

"The Ultimate Sales Letter" by Dan Kennedy

Cashvertising by Drew Eric Whitman

"Write to sell " it is written by Andy Maslen

"Influencing Human Behaviour" by H.A.

"Tested Sentences That Sell" by Elmer Wheeler

"Unlimited Selling Power" by Moine and Lloyd.

Writing for Emotional Impact by Karl Iglesias

Bob Bly's "The Copywriter's Handbook"

How To Make Your Advertising Make Money - John Caples

The Copywriters Handbook - Bob Bly

The Adweek Copywriting Handbook - Joseph Sugarman

Sales Letters That Sizzle - Herschell Gordon Lewis

Cash Copy - Jeffrey Lant

Magic Words That Bring You Riches - Ted Nicholas

Ogilvy On Advertising

Method Marketing by Denny Hatch.

My First 50 Years in Advertising by Maxwell Sackheim.

The Greatest Direct Mail Sales Letters of all Time " by Richard Hodgson.

How To Write Advertising That Sells by Clyde Bedell

Ads That Sell by Bob Bly

Advertising Headlines That Make You Rich-- David Garfinkle

Magic Words-- Ted Nicholas

Robert Collier Letter Book-- Robert Collier

My Life In Advertising -- Claude Hopkins

Bird - Commonsense

The First Hundred Million by E. Haldeman-Julius

David Ogilvy's "Blood, Brains and Beer"

"Confessions of an advertising man"

"Million Dollar Mailings" by Denison Hatch

"The Wizard of Ads" trilogy by Roy H. Williams

Making Ads Pay by John Caples

Method Marketing - Denison Hatch

"How to Write Sales Letters that Sell" by Drayton Bird.

Hypnotic Writing -- Joe Vitale

"The Lazy Man's Way to Riches" - by Joe Karbo

Denny Hatch's Million Dollar Mailings
In your opinion what are the top 5 books of those you mentioned?
Do you have a list like that for sales, advertising and marketing ?
 

Adrian Smith

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I still don't understand why people here want to learn to code!

Spend that time learning to market and write sales copy. Spending 1000 hours to learn to code to spend 200 hours writing an app is STUPID.

Spend the 1000 hours learning to market and write copy, and you can use that skill for the life of the app, plus the life of the next app, and other peoples apps AND it makes you money. Writing code just means you have something, but it won't sell itself.

Here is how it will work if you learn to code:
1000 hours learning to code.
200 hours writing an app.
wait for a sale, wait some more, wait some more.
Spend 1000 hours learning to market and write copy.
sell some of your app
spend 150 hours fixing bugs and responding to support issues because your app is crap because it takes 5000 hours to really learn how to code.
get frustrated and yank your app because of the PITA factor and all the bad reviews of your app.


Learn to market and write copy:
1000 hours learning to market and write code, while that 1000 hours is going on, pay someone that has 10,000 hours of training on apps to write your app.
Start marketing your app immediately.
Sell lots of your app.
Pass any support issues to the developer
Sell lots more of your app.
Create 3 more apps and market the hell out of them
Go to the bank often to deposit checks.

Do you SEE the difference????
Well put my friend, indeed.
 

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• nikita •

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I answered this before but I think the biggest benefit of coding your own product (or at least a huge part of it), is that you can make edits immediately. Found a bug? You wrote it, you know where everything is, you know how to fix it. You don't have to find, hire, or wait for devs. Delay = people leaving to find another product.
 

csalvato

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But I can name 50 great products that failed because their marketing was a problem, and 50 mediocre products that took off because of marketing.
Interesting. I agree.

Just as a thought exercise, can you name 10 mediocre products that took off because of marketing?

EDIT: The reason I ask is because it would help get clarity on what you think "take off" means. For example, Snuggie "took off" as a very short term fad bc of brilliant marketing, but where is it now?
 
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Late Bloomer

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BTW Microsoft modified code they bought from someone else, Gates did not write all that code.
I've been fascinated by the history of the personal computer industry for a long time now, and have read everything I can find on the subject. I believe that Gates wrote 100% of the Traf-O-Data code, 100% of the Altair BASIC code, was personally involved in code for every product up through the Epson HX-20 co-development with Epson, astounded Joel Sposky by inhaling the 500 page Office VBA spec overnight, and was the primary driver of the organization of .Net as Chief Software Architect, until he stepped down from as intense involvement with Microsoft in the mid-200's.

MS-DOS was bought from outside, but Gates knew of the IBM opportunity, knew of CP/M, knew of a CP/M knockoff, and was confident it could be readily adapted for the IBM PC, because he was highly technical.

Can you show me reliable references that would show I'm overestimating Gates's technical talent and its importance to Microsoft's success?
 

Late Bloomer

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It seems to me that these discussions in this forum keep missing a critical ingredient: the level of innate talent!

Some people have that mental twist that makes them able to become really damn good at programming. Visualize rebalancing a binary tree? Have a feel for how cache architecture will affect performance? Understand object lifecycle and when memory gets released? Whee, this is usually easy, and always fascinating and possible!

Other people simple do not have it, in the same way I will never get much competence at football even if star players were to coach me every day. Where do I go clicky clicky again? Why is there a need for a semicolon here? Wait, I thought there was an inner loop here but this is the outer loop? I copied and pasted some code I don't understand and it still doesn't work!

The first group probably should learn to code, for personal satisfaction AND for a truly kick-a$$ ingredient in their business arsenal. The second group should definitely outsource all their code needs!
 

Late Bloomer

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Just as a thought exercise, can you name 10 mediocre products that took off because of marketing?
Pet Rocks
Mullets
Beanie Babies
Facebook
8-track Tapes
Atari 2600
50 Shades of Grey
Twilight
Loudness Wars
"The Little Drummer Boy"
 

csalvato

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Rocky Mountain West
Pet Rocks
Mullets
Beanie Babies
Facebook
8-track Tapes
Atari 2600
50 Shades of Grey
Twilight
Loudness Wars
"The Little Drummer Boy"
Cool. Where are they now?

EDIT: also I’d hardly say Facebook was a marketing play. They had the best product and product-market fitnin class for years before doing any marketing outside ofnword of mouth.
 

Late Bloomer

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Cool. Where are they now?
One is the largest social network in the world, that made its founder a billionaire.

Two launched movie series that have made around $5 Billion at the box office so far. One of them started with fan fiction for the other, and has since led to the author making around $100 million with what every English teacher would agree is really bad writing.

One was a copywriting gag with a cheap product attached, and like any good magic trick, through slight of hand the attachment was sold as the main event... making the owner a million dollars from a 32 page comedy book, in what every English teacher would agree was unusually clever writing.

Once is credited as being the very first business to consumer Internet marketing venture. The product line is still active today, and the company's owner is a billionaire.

Two items are now obsolete, but were crucial in launching multi billion dollar industries. Another probably had a lot to do with subsequently decimating one of those multi billion dollar industries.

Overall, not bad results for a portfolio! Having a winning fad with great marketing of a mediocre profit, can be a path to huge success and wealth!
 

Late Bloomer

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They had the best product and product-market fitnin class for years before doing any marketing outside ofnword of mouth.
In some ways yes, in some ways no. Facebook still lacks some extremely basic functionality, such as threaded discussions and folders for private messages (let alone all the automated sorting rules of Gmail), or being able to sort the list of friends by how recently they had new posts.

But there's no question that Zuck being a code geek has sure helped his success.
 

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