Here to destroy all your preconceived notions about college

[Kak]

Associates degree in accounting or something would help in business and only cost a few K at a community college. Probably a good bet.

 

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[Runum]

I am a father of a 21 yo college junior. I am also a 5th grade science teacher. I have also taught a lot of high school classes, including some remedial work. Most high school students, including my own kid, do not have the maturity and skills to weigh a decision like this. Not sure why. Most of them talk a BIG talk but can't and will not walk the walk. They think they graduate from HS and will be balllin. Most do not have the toughness it takes to stick with an idea and take their lumps.

I do agree that there needs to be alternatives offered to just college. I would really enjoy teaching shop class with some tech if offered. However, too many excuses are being accepted for the lack of direction of young adults. Overall, I really don't see a lot of gumption from most of them. Worries me a lot.

 

[The-J]

I dunno about that. A lot of kids dropped out for the same reasons I did and I didn't know what I was going to do when I did. I trusted the Steve Jobs speech where he said follow your heart and the dots won't connect till years later.

So you learned. Congratulations, but not all do. Most find themselves in the same rut: go to work, come home, play video games and fall asleep. Some don't even have work but instead live with their parents where they play video games and Facebook grab-a$$ all day.

What I would recommend is instead of going to college straight away after high school (if you have no idea what you wanna do), take a gap year or two. Go places. Do things. Get a job in a different town or city, or country. Go volunteer in Africa or Southeast Asia. Learn about the world, learn about money, and learn about yourself. You can still go back to college, no matter what adults may say.

I agree with Runum's statement: most 18 year olds don't have the mental capacity to decide what they really want to spend their life doing. 18 year olds do have the mental capacity, however, to make decisions for themselves and by themselves. They may be dangerous, but they should get used to having such a power.

 

[vtlambo]

A Slowlaner who leverages Fastlane techniques (he has a job but is also an investor and an entrepreneur) told me that school doesn't really matter all that much. I thought it was kinda funny hearing that from a Slowlaner.

Even for those who go to school, he says that people at his level graduated with all sorts of GPAs and that the guy who graduated with a 60 is sometimes higher paid than the guy who graduated with a 90.

Oh, Slowlane.

A few of the guys/girls I know from University that graduated with me with super high GPA's now work in call centres. Damn.

 

[miked_d]

Is college ever the right choice?

Sorry, this was just a troll.

I know college is the right choice for some.

Some sciences require formal schooling. Engineering (I studied EE), psychology, medical, accounting, lawyers. This thread felt like a bash on on college education and I wanted to hear from both sides.

I had a rough day and it occasionally brings me joy to play devil's advocate. Part of my passive aggressive nature.

 

[dknise]

Good luck in being a Lawyer. You need a formal education in Law in order to become one. I'm in the gutter now? lol I never said College was fantastic, the only point I was trying to make is that somethings require a degree, end of story.

You absolutely 100% have to have a formal education from a university to know law? Well damn. How did anyone ever learn it to begin with?
How to Become a Lawyer - No Law School - How to Pass the Bar Exam with No College

As far as engineering, accounting, business, even nursing, there is nothing I see that can't be learned through a library, internships, and job experience.

If you think you "have" to pay somebody to regurgitate information to you... I feel truly sorry for you.


ps from your posts in the coding is stupid thread, I can tell you and I are on complete opposite ends. No point in really talking haha.

 

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[dknise]

Sorry, this was just a troll.

I know college is the right choice for some.

Some sciences require formal schooling. Engineering (I studied EE), psychology, medical, accounting, lawyers. This thread felt like a bash on on college education and I wanted to hear from both sides.

I had a rough day and it occasionally brings me joy to play devil's advocate. Part of my passive aggressive nature.

How? So you're saying that I can't become proficient and any of those without going to college? Once again, I feel extremely sorry for you if you actually believe this garbage.

ps I just had a rough day too haha, so I'm angsty!

All i'm saying, is that people need to stop believing that there is a magical lock on knowledge that they have to pay someone to read to them, which is what college does. Quit the hand holding, man the f*ck up, and learn it.

 

[miked_d]

So you're saying that I can't become proficient and any of those without going to college

Yes. You may find an exception or two for each subject i mentioned, but they are outside the norm.

Prove me wrong.

 

[dknise]

Yes. You may find an exception or two for each subject i mentioned, but they are outside the norm.

Prove me wrong.

So you're saying there's a magical lock on the knowledge to reach mastery in any subject? Prove that magical lock to me.

 

[CTamme]

As an ME I think I would have been better off learning the practical aspects of my degree rather then the theoretical. Too much classroom and too little field work for me.

I did my senior design project with Ford. After my presentation the VP from Ford asked me why I wasn't on their interview list. I had to tell him that my GPA wasn't high enough to qualify. He then told me well I can get you on it and I said don't bother I have played this game before. He got me on the list and I went to interview and didn't get a second interview because my GPA wasn't high enough. This isn't the only time this happened. Still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. At least I worked my way through college and left debt free. My degree might get my foot in the door but I do the rest.

 

[miked_d]

So you're saying there's a magical lock on the knowledge to reach mastery in any subject? Prove that magical lock to me.

Well played. I will reply tomorrow.

 

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[splok]

One problem with these threads is that most people tend to assume that what is good advice for them, at this moment, is also good for everyone else. If I were magically 18 again, I wouldn't even consider college (though maybe I would live near one for the parties!), but if I were considering what was best for my actual 18 year old self, I'm not so sure. It isn't a question of an absolute optimal path but of the optimal path for a certain person at a certain point in their evolution. You have to consider what would be replacing college if they didn't go. The choice isn't always exactly "hmm, college or millionaire." How many would be sitting in their mom's basement playing wow for an extra 4 years if not for college? For a great many 18 year olds, going to college probably is the best use of their next four years that they can reasonably hope to achieve.

 

[dknise]

One problem with these threads is that most people tend to assume that what is good advice for them, at this moment, is also good for everyone else.

Over the last four years, I've continually wishes someone had presented the alternative before I wasted a year of my life and $25,000. You can't give people a choice if you only present one option.

Obviously there's a bunch of college grads here who are getting super offended... sorry you spent so much and got so little haha. Tough luck.

 

[PatrickP]

Nope does apply here

I didn't finish college, I went for 4 years and had a TON of FUN!

I didn't get a have a single loan because I worked while I was going to school.

BUT I STILL recommend people at least go for 2 years and get their Associates degree.


If you do not go to college and you fail at business and decide that a job is the only way you can get through life, you are left WAY behind when you compete against others who do have their degree and have the same experience.

If you DO go to college, in the whole scheme of things 2 years really is not that much time and I would HOPE you would meet at least one person you could have a lasting friendship with.

If I had it to do again I would go to college but do the 2 year degree.


I wish I had a crystal ball to see 10 and 20 years down the road to see what these people who are not going to college will be doing.


Maybe we have a reunion scheduled for Oct 25th 2022 and 2032. Believe it or not it is really not that far off.

 

[Felix II]

So you're saying there's a magical lock on the knowledge to reach mastery in any subject? Prove that magical lock to me.

I agree and I disagree.

Because of my work schedule I taught myself multivariate calculus, engineering physics II, and ordinary differential equations. I finished at the top of the class in all of these without ever attending class. These are hard topics according to most people, so it proves I have the ability to teach myself difficult subject matter.

However, with seven years of academic experience, I can say there are topics where the materials simply do not exist for one to teach ones self.

For example, last year I took an information theory course. Having to rely on a limited number of textbooks (that I could find), there is no way in hell I could have taught myself that subject without having the ability to ask an expert (i.e., my very experienced professor) and seek clarification.


Some areas in the STEM are simply too hard (given the materials currently or easily available) to learn on your own.



This is the problem with advanced topics in STEM. More advanced topics (and even less advanced topics) are often extremely difficult with only a few experts in the world producing material on these subjects which means study material is very limited and any given study material will undoubtedly have holes.



Not to mention, when you teach yourself a difficult subject, often time you end up "over-learning". This is extremely inefficient.
When you take a class in college, you are assigned the important areas in the book to focus on. When you study yourself you must spend time on every area because you don't know what is important.

For example, I started studying switch mode power supply design using a very good textbook. If I studied this in college I could have done this in two semesters (16 weeks each). But as it is I have been studying for over a year now because I have to study every little thing to make sure I don't miss something important.

Would you trade a few thousand dollars to learn a subject in half the time?

 

[mayana]

Obviously there's a bunch of college grads here who are getting super offended... sorry you spent so much and got so little haha. Tough luck

You could also say the reverse.

Going to college or not is a personal choice. It's right for some people, and not right for others. I wouldn't say it is ever a terrible choice or a wrong choice. If someone doesn't want to go to college and has better plans, good for them!

But I don't think people should bash someone who did go to college. Or the other way around. Jeez.

 

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[JAJT]

My situation: I spent 3 years in Business Administration with a focus on Marketing. I was passionate about marketing.

After college I applied to every marketing place in the city. Never got even a single call-back. Nothing. I didn't get it. I was told that my diploma was a key that unlocked jobs in that field. Nobody cared.

I eventually got a job in sales based SOLELY on the fact that I had done telemarketing (surveys) in my last year of college. During the interview I tried talking about my business education, thinking it was my most powerful asset, and they kept brining the topic back to my job at McDonalds, the telemarketing survey place, my retail experience dealing with customers, etc...

Not once have I ever been able to leverage my business education to further my career. Not once.

All I kept thinking was that If I had gone right from telemarketing into sales I could have saved myself a heap of cash and 3 years of my life. There isn't a job on this planet that respects 3 years education over 3 years on the job experience.

Now, the flip side is some jobs require it. You can't get into engineering or start a law practice without your bit of paper. I'd call these specialized careers. If what you want to do doesn't REQUIRE it like these fields, it's probably unnecessary.

The only caution is that if you decide to skip college, you are VERY unlikely to ever go back. If it's something you will regret you will almost certainly never find the time or money again to give it whirl once you pass up on it.

I think people need to sit down and seriously talk and think about their futures before making the decision. There is no one-size-fits all but I absolutely feel most people are doing it the hard way.

 

[Steele Concept]

College for most people generally has been the answer, but the answer could be changing... Most people want to work a 9-5, have their steady 50k and job security. These days job security is horrible, many people have college degrees and the value of a BA isn't what it once was. A college degree is no longer your golden ticket. However, public perception still highly values a college degree and it is absolutely an important asset to have for most jobs. The problem is college is so F*cking costly unless you are in a specialized field virtually guarunteed to make money you need to think wisely about if you want to go to school and which school you attend.

I highly recommend Michael Ellsbergs: The Education of Millionaires to see why college is the next bubble about to burst.

College certainly isn't for everyone but neither is entrepreneurship. You've got to have unbelievable drive and balls to be an entrapreneaur.

It really depends on your personality and motivation. Some people will be successful regardless what path they choose. Apathetic individuals are going to do alright at best. At 18, does anyone really know what they would like to do for the rest of their life? There is a lot of ambiguity involved in the career making process and its different strokes for different folks. College can help or hinder depending on ones goals and this will vary widely from individual from individual.

Most people would have more job satisfaction, salary and job security if they pursued a trade instead of college. Most "good" jobs want college degrees. Most succesful entrepreneurs are a wild exception to societies rules of climbing the ladder and salary caps... But are most entrepreneurs successful?

I have an AS, a BA and a MA. Undergrad was very fun and I learned a decent amount while at it. Graduate school was not fun but I learned a lot. I've paid off undergrad by working when I was going to grad school full time. I owe a shitload of cash from going to grad school and at times I wonder if the juice was worth the squeeze... That money could have been used for my entrpreneaurial pursuits. If I need to grab a job while pursuing my business there is no doubt my advanced degree will help.

All in all there are no black and white answers.

 

[LamboMP]

ps from your posts in the coding is stupid thread, I can tell you and I are on complete opposite ends. No point in really talking haha.

I also forgot to mention that University tuition, no matter what school in Canada, is about $5,000 a year. Which is $25,000 total. I stayed home and did not go away to school. I had no debt when I graduated and all the things I learned were relevant. I have an IT degree.

I would never pay $100,000 for a degree ever. I was arguing on the $5,000 a year, lol which is so easy to pay off.

 

[miked_d]

Some sciences require formal schooling. Engineering (I studied EE), psychology, medical, accounting, lawyers.

I'm not sure where you are from. I am going to base my responses on California.

Engineering - To get your PE license, a 4 year degree is required - http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/faq_eng.pdf

Psychology - Degree required for license - Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - California Board of Psychology

Accounting - CPA requires at least a BA - http://www.dca.ca.gov/cba/publications/exambook.pdf

Lawyer - Looks like a degree is not required.

 

[dknise]

Would you trade a few thousand dollars to learn a subject in half the time?

I've never met a CS student who knew as much about programming as I did, who solely learned from their CS program. College hinders the ability for learning because it forces you to learn at an insanely slow pace.

Going to college or not is a personal choice. It's right for some people, and not right for others. I wouldn't say it is ever a terrible choice or a wrong choice. If someone doesn't want to go to college and has better plans, good for them!

But I don't think people should bash someone who did go to college. Or the other way around. Jeez.

My point is that teenage students are indoctrinated into believing that college is the ONLY path available to them and that taking on $100,000 in debt is a great option.

Also, yes, I have a ton of hostility towards the "college." College grads continually look down on me and I continually look down on them. I've been insulted by too many people for my path that I've started to fight back haha.

I think people need to sit down and seriously talk and think about their futures before making the decision. There is no one-size-fits all but I absolutely feel most people are doing it the hard way.

And that's why I'm talking about it! Kids aren't getting the flip side to college, they're only being fed the cushy myth.

I also forgot to mention that University tuition, no matter what school in Canada, is about $5,000 a year. Which is $25,000 total. I stayed home and did not go away to school. I had no debt when I graduated and all the things I learned were relevant. I have an IT degree.

I would never pay $100,000 for a degree ever. I was arguing on the $5,000 a year, lol which is so easy to pay off.

That explains a lot! My education at a public university was $25,000 per year. Student loans in the United States have artificially inflated the prices of college tuition by students (more so the high school councilors who help them out) who are insensitive to prices because they are inexperienced and don't exactly know what they're getting into. The price in the US has tripled in the last 3 years, yet the quality of education has admittedly gone down. It probably stems from the fact that more students are pursuing a college degree, so more professors had to pop up out of thin air. They popped up right out of the college classrooms hahaha.

I'm not sure where you are from. I am going to base my responses on California.

Engineering - To get your PE license, a 4 year degree is required - http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/faq_eng.pdf

It says you are exempt from having to take the exam if you have a 4 year degree. If you were required by law to pay for an education in the universal laws of physics, I would sue the state. It looks like anyone can take the exam, which is the way it should be.

Psychology - Degree required for license - Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - California Board of Psychology

I'd sue.

Accounting - CPA requires at least a BA - http://www.dca.ca.gov/cba/publications/exambook.pdf

Once again I'd sue. I was wondering what magical lock there was on the knowledge and you did indeed find it haha! The US government.:smilielol:

 

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[The-J]

I also forgot to mention that University tuition, no matter what school in Canada, is about $5,000 a year.

Not true for privatized programs, and, of course, for international students.

 

[dknise]

Not right for ANYONE?

No. Telling people they HAVE to pay for knowledge is not the right advice for anyone. Not presenting students with alternative routes in life before signing them up for a fat student loan is NOT the right advice for ANYONE.

I'm not saying college is for everyone -- plenty of people don't have the intellectual capacity to be successful in college, plenty of people have aspirations to do things where they won't benefit from a college degree, plenty of people are just too lazy to succeed regardless of whether they go to college and the extra debt is unnecessary -- but for plenty of people, college plays a major role in their future career and financial success.

As an example, you're a comp sci guy who has worked in the tech industry -- do you think that without a college degree you're on a level playing field with others in the industry who do have degrees? You worked for Microsoft, but guess how much less you were paid than the guy sitting next to you who had a college degree (as a former GPM/Director at Microsoft, I know what the answer most likely is, and you wouldn't be happy about it). You wouldn't even be able to get an interview for a comp sci position at companies such as Google and Facebook. Trust me, in the technology industry, you're at a major disadvantage without a college degree.

You think a bunch of fresh out of college kids don't talk about how much they make? Yes, they started out higher than me, but after 3 months the tides changed. Like I've said, I watched 6 fresh CS majors come through my department and be let go within a month. The only guy under 25 who stayed aboard also was a college dropout. Do I think I'm on a level playing field with them? Not at all. I'm not in debt, have money in the bank, was able to problem solve on my own without having to be spoon fed the info and babysat, and ultimately won at. They're probably waiting tables at Red Robin now. Did they talk a ton of shit, go behind my back, try and get my fired repeatedly for not having a degree? Every. Single. One. Of. Them.

Do you think technology is the only industry where lack of college degree is a hindrance? Do you think that you're just as likely to be a successful entrepreneur without a college degree? Take a look at the 100 wealthiest self-made Americans and note how many of them have college degrees?

Was this a joke? Or are you just severely misinformed.

You want to raise money for a business venture? Go call a few of the big name VCs and see if they take your call; now do the same thing, but mention that you were referred by a professor at one of the big name business schools (Stanford, HBS, etc), and see how easily you can get them on the line. That's not hyperbole.

You don't need to when you don't have debt, saved money rather then spent, and can finance your own operation.

Again, college may not be for everyone -- and it may not be for you, which is fine -- but to generalize that it's not right for ANYONE is just plain ridiculous.

So I shouldn't ever talk about the alternative routes and just continue to let 18 year olds walk blindly into debt and servitude. Words can't even express how much I will never let that happen.

:groove:

 

[Skys]

Destroying your thoughts #1: So I can get a good job:
It doesn't promise it. It does help, a lot. Most companies ask for a college degree or a university degree. Sure, you could build an awesome portfolio, but unfortunately, you did not learn to code, because coding is for losers, not for entrepreneurs.

I'm pretty sure I could walk in to any three of those places and land that same job without spending four years of my life and $100,000 to become edumacated.

No. You couldn't. This is being delusional.

Destroying your thoughts #2: I want to be educated
blablabla. Dude. If you want to become X, you probably need a degree in it. If you want to become a HR specialist, you will need a degree. If you want to be hired as an a lawyer, you will need a degree. Most higher functions demand a degree. And if you like what you are studying, and you have this vision of yourself doing a certain job and u want to be educated. Then go do it.
Destroying your thoughts
#3: I am expected to by not only my family, but society:
He, finally a point that makes sense. Don't do it for others, but for yourself.
Destroying your thoughts
#4: I want to make a lot of money:
There are lots of people that earn a very decent living because they went to college.

This going to college-hate is bullshit, especially when you live in a country where college/university is FREE. Most are not cut to be an succesful enough entrepreneur to make a lot of money. Most don't have the network to accomplish it, nor the skill. They are dreaming away trying to build some crappy 'the next facebook' or some 'ecommerce shop' because vigilante became really rich by it.

It's a dream. Nothing to bash, because I hope you will make it. But i really suggest you think twice about a very good back up plan. Earning 6k a months isn't that bad, which could be easily accomplished if you are smart with a good educational background.

 

[dknise]

Destroying your thoughts #2: I want to be educated
blablabla. Dude. If you want to become X, you probably need a degree in it. If you want to become a HR specialist, you will need a degree. If you want to be hired as an a lawyer, you will need a degree. Most higher functions demand a degree. And if you like what you are studying, and you have this vision of yourself doing a certain job and u want to be educated. Then go do it.

I'm sorry you haven't freed yourself from the delusion that knowledge is so hard to obtain.

 

[Lights]

No offense,

but most people are lazy and need to be guided like a dog through life. A lot of people are mindless, it doesn't mean they are stupid, but they lack all initiative to go off the road less travel. There are a lot of mindless smart and educated people. If you give the average single person 100,000, by the end of the year he would had dwindle it to nothing, and have nothing to show for it.

I have a mindless brother. He listens to everyone's opinions, and doesn't create what he wants in life. Tells me he is going to drop out of college, without a backup plan. He can't hold on a job longer than 3 weeks, because it's too hard. He's just all talk.

So that's why I doubt most drop out college students are going to become anything... they need something to smack them in the head and wake them up to reality. They usually drop out because they are lazy.

and this isn't just drop outs either. this applies to everyone! and it's a good thing too. People think they are trap when their past their youth, and so they never change. People blame their lives on God, Obama, Satan, or some weird forest deity. They don't look into the mirror.

I have a family members who suffer from poverty, and I don't have one ounce of sympathy for them.... why? How is it that at 20 yrs old I have more spending money than you at age 45+??? How is it that I can quit my job and know I can live for another 2-5 yrs without working again. Don't cry about being broke, don't assume anything about me, because I'll never ask anyone for money.

And don't get me started on married people, no sympathy.

 

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[miked_d]

I told myself I was going to leave this thread alone. I forgot to unsubscribe and saw this update in my inbox:

If you want to become a HR specialist, you will need a degree.

An HR specialist? Really?

If you want to be hired as an a lawyer, you will need a degree

Again, I can only speak for California. I checked to prove dknise wrong and found that you do NOT need a degree to take the bar exam.

 

[Skys]

They ask. Know your shit, get an interview, and own it. If being able to have a thought, type, be in control of your success, and have a marketable product is for losers, then you are absolutely correct, I am a complete loser.


I'm sorry you haven't freed yourself from the delusion that knowledge is so hard to obtain.

For most high paid jobs you will need an education. Saying that is not true, is being plain naive and it would be like an endless discussion to 'convince' you otherwise. I am unsure if you have any life experience or just some image in your head how easy it's going to be to just 'nail the interview by being in control of succes'.

'Know your shit' for recruiters, most of the times means: college degree, or university degree in X. That's how they pick people most of the time. That's the reality.
'Get an interview', the reality is, that you are not even on the radar for them. Your CV is crap, because you have no educational background. That's where recruiters look for, almost always. 99% of the time a college degree or an university is a very hard demand. If you don't have it, you will get skipped. Sad, but true, since I believe there are very talented people without a degree. Unfortunately, there is to many to pick in a very large pool of employees trying to get a job on the market.

 

[dknise]

For most high paid jobs you will need an education. Saying that is not true, is being plain naive and it would be like an endless discussion to 'convince' you otherwise. I am unsure if you have any life experience or just some image in your head how easy it's going to be to just 'nail the interview by being in control of succes'.

'Know your shit' for recruiters, most of the times means: college degree, or university degree in X. That's how they pick people most of the time. That's the reality.
'Get an interview', the reality is, that you are not even on the radar for them. Your CV is crap, because you have no educational background. That's where recruiters look for, almost always. 99% of the time a college degree or an university is a very hard demand. If you don't have it, you will get skipped. Sad, but true, since I believe there are very talented people without a degree. Unfortunately, there is to many to pick in a very large pool of employees trying to get a job on the market.

Cool story bro.

 

[The-J]

They ask. Know your shit, get an interview, and own it.

Bullshit.

Know your PEOPLE, and you're in.

I was rejected for jobs that I was overqualified for. I'm a Microsoft Certified Professional and I applied at Staples and Best Buy. Nothing (got an interview with Staples that went well till they found out I was underage). Applied for an on-campus IT job. Nothing. Everything that they said in the job description that I needed to do, I had DONE before! Didn't even get an interview.

This may have been in part because I didn't have a degree (which would then not make me overqualified but underqualified). I'm pretty sure, however, that it was due to the fact that I knew nobody in the company and nobody that anyone in the company knew could vouch for me.

It's not what you know, not what you have, it's who you know.

Therefore, college degree is irrelevant in certain circumstances, but at the same time, your actual skills compared to the next guy are also irrelevant.

A college degree has nothing to do with knowledge, anyway. It's simply a signal that shows that you are able to at least be average.