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Elizabeth Warren: Break up Big Tech

Discussion in 'Asset Protection/Taxes/Legal' started by MJ DeMarco, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. biophase
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    biophase Legendary Contributor I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    So what you want is all about what will benefit you. LOL
     
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    This entire thread makes me think of Milton Friedman's "Free to Choose" book and TV series. As an aside, I think the 10-part TV series touches on a number of topics being discussed here.

    The discussion leads to two, and only two, camps from my perspective - laissez faire and government involvement. There cannot be an in between, as government involvement in one area cedes government involvement in all areas. In for a penny, in for a pound - and you take all the associated good and bad.

    If you allow the gun of the government to be pointed in any direction (regardless of it being an area you agree/disagree), you have to presume it will be pointed at you inevitably. On something that hits many of us frequently - do you endorse the amount you pay in taxes, where those dollars are going and the causes being championed?

    When is too big too big? When are revenues too much? When are employees too many? Who determines when you fall into the cross hairs?

    I reject the notion that a person or central group can better decide my best interests than me. I would go further and safely guess that's how all of us feel; if you discard the ability of others to make their own choices, know there are people looking at you the same way.

    I know this post may sound idealistic, but I cannot see the existence of any middle ground. And if you call in the government to champion your cause, you had best be prepared to have it called in against you.
     
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    I don't know how I feel about it. On one hand, breaking up large tech companies will give smaller startups more of a chance to compete, will help to prevent some of the "questionable" practices of tech companies, and will likely force more competitive pricing for tech services. However, I also think the government forcing large companies to break up opens a can of worms. When the government tries to "correct" the free market, they often end up screwing things up.

    It's a pretty complicated issue, and the intricacies are far above my head. However, Warren's understanding of those intricacies is likely not much above my own. She's a politician, and politicians love to make a common enemy out of anybody they can find to garner votes. The entire issue may end up the same as the whole "$15 minimum wage" nonsense. Great in theory, horrific in practice.
     
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  4. MJ DeMarco
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    Admin Post
    Well in a thread that is mostly political, I'm pleasantly surprised at how it has evolved.

    A variety of divergent opinions and not a lot of mud being thrown.

    Thanks everyone for being civil.

    Carry on...
     
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  5. Maxboost
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    No, I just don't believe that your idea of NO REGULATIONS are needed and "the free market" will correct itself is similar to the Utopia that socialist imagine in their head where everyone is equal.

    My earlier point was regulation should ONLY be implemented when there is market failure or harm to the public. There is market failure in this case.

    Businesses will continue to do unethical practices until it is unprofitable to do so, such as unsafe working conditions, child labor, illegal immigration workers, water pollution, air pollution, overfishing, Mcdonalds overheating their coffee, etc.

    You accuse me of a strawman LOL.

    Exchange of ideas, political bias, fake news, censorship, loss of private information, and de-personing of Alex Jones.


    We assumed that these companies would not be biased and act in the best interest of society but now the evidence is showing they have ulterior motives to shape society (you never watched the tim poole/twitter interview) . But hey "muh free markets..." That is why I am no longer libertarian.

    Disengenious.

    Market situation where one producer (or a group of producers acting in concert) controls supply of a good or service, and where the entry of new producers is prevented or highly restricted.

    Gab was removed from the App store and Google store and could have been a competitor to twitter as a response to the suppression of free speech.

    Read more: Which of your friends needs to learn this term?

    Says who? No one can answer this question unless you can create a time machine and observe an alternate reality. Absurd statement to make.

    Never made that claim, OPEC was not responsible for breaking up standard Oil, nor are the USA a part of OPEC. You never watched the video. Also I am against cartels like OPEC as well so what is your point?
     
  6. Kak
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    Kak Capitalist Swine Read Millionaire Fastlane FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    I flat out said you can't have no regulation. Contract law, for example is very important!

    Racist Joe was an example of people being dissatisfied with a company and ending their business relationship with him because of it. It had nothing to do with you, but good job taking it personally. You're name isn't Joe is it? Because I can understand how that might have confused someone like yourself.

    You still claim market failure even though you probably go home to voluntarily use Amazon and Google.

    I never said OPEC broke up standard oil.

    Where are you getting this shit? You're not even debatable.

    Sucky companies exist... That doesnt mean we vote for their demise. Just stop giving them your business. Using the government as a weapon to rob someone doesnt make robbery ok.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
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  7. MTEE1985
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    Against my better judgement here goes.

    Maybe we need to take a step back and start this thread over?

    You are correct on these points and nobody is disputing it, simply saying alternatives exist. Nobody is getting the above items forced down their throats, they are choosing to use Facebook, Google etc and shame on them if they can’t think for themselves.

    Poor example. While I am as pro free speech as anybody, Gab doesn’t deserve to be listed on either. If I started posting racist, homophobic etc. content here
    MJ would kick me the F*ck out. Doesn’t make him anti-free speech. It makes him human. And violates the terms of HIS forum which I CHOOSE to participate in under his rules.

    And no. High barrier to entry does not equal monopoly, nobody is stopping the next google or Facebook or Amazon from existing if somebody wants to bark up that tree bad enough.
     
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  8. NovaAria
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    But what if MJ's forum is the biggest forum on the net where 99% of the population reads the news and follows the state of the world? What if you went to the second biggest platform, my website, and I happened to be friends with MJ and we collude to make sure that your voice gets silenced? Oh you're free to talk about whatever you want on ponies-with-hats-on.com (I hope this doesnt lead anywhere), but no one who matters will get to hear you.
    Now what if this isn't about racist or homophobic speech, but about opinions that might not align with our plans for the upcoming election?

    I think everyone in this thread agrees that the government intervening will only complicate things further. But something must still be done.
     
  9. biophase
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    biophase Legendary Contributor I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    So at what point does MJ not have the right to exclude something he doesn’t agree with on his own forum? Is it only when it crosses 90% of the population? 95%?
     
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  10. Maxboost
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    Good job having a rational discussion and debating in a civilized manner.

    I provided rebuttals to your arguments on why these big tech companies need to be regulated but you proved my point that your ideology has gotten the better of your common sense judgement (much like a socialist). Slinging Ad hominem fallacies and not addressing my rebuttals shows that you have not thought about the issue deeply and took it personally.

    As I said earlier, regulation is ONLY necessary until the big boys prove they can't play fairly and will not harm the public. Big tech companies proved they can't...therefore it's time for regulation...As much as I dislike Elizabeth Warren...she is RIGHT...
     
  11. MTEE1985
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    MTEE1985 The world belongs to the risk takers Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    Now that is a quality post and the proper way to have a constructive debate. Thank you for a breath of fresh air.

    I would say, let the 99% get their news there. I would rather be in the 1%.

    Without getting too political, in regards to election opinions that goes both ways depending on who you ask. Left thinks right bought the election via social media and Russia. Right thinks left suppressed their speech and ads. I think it’s all nonsense crying by a bunch of spoiled entitled brats on both sides to see who can yell “that’s not fair” the loudest.

    So while I understand your point, I don’t think it gives the general public’s ability to think enough credit.

    To the topic at hand of the break up of the companies...as you alluded to, government intervention would likely make the problem 10x worse because the 99% getting their news from that source would get whatever the government wants them to get. Technically could they do something that would in fact be beneficial? Sure. But they can’t help themselves and would manage to screw it up much worse than it is now. (In my humble opinion)

    And if something must be done, the government is the only way at this point because we live in a free market economy where as much as people bitch and moan about Facebook, Google, Amazon they aren’t about to give them up either.

    It’s like the story of the dog laying on the nail, it might hurt, but not bad enough.
     
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  12. Dark Water
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    Rationally speaking, this is just way over my head to actually have a take on it whether it is beneficial in a business sense. This is an issue that extends into every facet of life, from global economics to small families in rural Kansas.

    Its easy to feel one way or another on it based on a few takes or what points most resonate with personal feelings and what not. I'll be watching with a close eye and interest, to see how it plays out, but don't feel strongly one way or another. Both sides have presented decent points from what I've read, but feel like I would need a PhD in Economics and 20 years on top of that to actually come to a conclusion... and then you have people like that on both sides of the aisle that conflict because of different schools of thought.

    I read this Economist article today dating back to 1999 regarding the breakup of Standard Oil in 1911. I think its relevant, so it is something I can contribute here. Apparently, politics rather than economics played a larger role in the breakup of the company. Some of it was tied into the re-election of Theodore Roosevelt. Are we witnessing another presidential campaign leveraging antitrust suits? It leaves you pondering this, among other questions.

    Standard ogre
     
  13. Maxboost
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    This isn't about if you can use their services, it's "are they behaving in an ETHICAL manner that is conducive to a free and open society that fosters different ideas and a competitive environment.

    Short answer: No, these big tech companies are not acting in an ethical manner, therefore bring on the regulators.

    You are proving my point for regulation.
     
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  14. MTEE1985
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    MTEE1985 The world belongs to the risk takers Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    I agree 100% that the ethics are sketchy. The question then becomes will our government regulate in a way that fosters different ideas and a competitive environment? In theory they could. In practice, not a chance in hell so my preference is letting the market regulate.

    We are all for regulation, but there are different kinds, the debate in the thread seems to be who can regulate more effectively between the market/consumers and the government. My vote again is not the government.
     
  15. Bekit
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    My personal opinion:

    Google IS a government.

    Facebook IS a government. Zuck is a king over a country. And the population is a lot larger than the population of the US.

    A lot of us hold dual citizenship in a lot of these "countries."

    And we're operating under the illusion that these are just "companies."

    No they're not. Look at how YouTube has completely nullified copyright law. The rules that apply are YouTube's rules, not the laws of the land. Who calls the shots? YouTube.

    • So when you're on Facebook, you're subject to Facebook's laws.
    • When you're on Google, you're subject to Google's laws.
    • When you're on Twitter, you're subject to Twitter's laws. "There's a dramatic difference between what Twitter thinks is OK and what the US Government thinks is OK." —Tim Pool

    It's my personal opinion that if the US Government were to try to intervene, Google and/or Facebook would just put their hands on their hips and say, "Make me."

    Think about who has leverage over who.

    Does the US Government have leverage over Google? Or would Google just establish their headquarters in a different country and continue to operate exactly as they please?

    Would the US Government risk making any decision that would provoke Google to yank their services from Americans? Think about what that would do to our economy. Life as we know it would be gone.

    But what's the alternative? Let's say Elizabeth Warren's plan actually gets carried out. Say Google and facebook get broken up into a bunch of little pieces where they're too weak to recover.

    Baidu and Yandex are going to zoom into that void, and all the power of controlling that enormous volume of user data is going to shift to non-American versions of those same services.

    I don't really see any upside in any of these scenarios.

    1) We are subject to the judgment calls of the handful of executives at Google and Facebook etc. They now rule our lives instead of elected officials.
    2) We hand the control over to the notoriously inept US Government.
    3) We hand the control over to a foreign government.

    Right now, we're in a sort of truce. No one has revealed their cards. Google and Facebook haven't overtly rebelled against the government. But already, I think they're at a point where they could.

    And no one wants to tip their hand just yet.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
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  16. scottmsul
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    Except there's one big difference between corporations and the government. You don't have to interact with a corporation. All transactions are voluntary. That goes out the window once government is involved.

    Don't like how Facebook controls your news feed? Stop using Facebook.

    Don't like how Youtube removes or demonetizes certain videos? Stop using Youtube.

    Don't like social security? Too bad! You're paying into it, whether you want to or not.
     
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    Fair point. To an extent.

    I would argue, though, that it's not that simple to just "opt out."

    I had deleted my facebook account, but in order to open a business page, you have to have a personal page. So I opened one back up. Not that I use it. But if I want to play the game of facebook ads, that's the price you have to pay.

    Imagine the ramifications of not using google. Ever. That means no Android devices, no Chrome, no Google search, no gmail, no google drive, no google docs.

    You're severely hampered from doing business if you don't have a way to access all these things.

    It's kind of like saying, "Don't like social security? Fine, move to a different country. Oh, there's no other alternative country to move to? Drop off the grid and go back to 3rd-world living conditions."

    Technically you CAN - but it looks to me like we are just about as beholden to Facebook and Google as we are to the government.
     
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    In the world of business, it's a dog eat dog world.....
     
  19. 404profound
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    I'm literally building my app with the intent to sell it to a larger tech company lol
     
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    Well firstly i'm glad someones at least framing a plan instead of just spewing polemic.

    The amazon idea made some sense , no amazom branded products , they still own the marketplace they created and get a cut for every sale. Amazon still makes money and 10,000 private label / manufacturing niches pop up.

    The idea for google was whack , how do you seperate the ad money from the search function? Why wouldnt alphabet just close google?

    The facebook angle also doesnt shake out , facebook is failing right now and zuckerbergs proposal is to make it more like snapchat or whatsapp , less "heres a post for everyone" and more private chat. Again not sensible , facebook would just shutter , the markets already forcing its hand.

    Still , these are initial proposals and I like the flavor.

    The full article for anyone curious

    Here’s how we can break up Big Tech
     
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  21. MTEE1985
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    Another dumb question. Her stance for this break up is that she wants to encourage competition. If that’s the case why does she take the exact opposite stance for healthcare and advocate for single payer which is literally the definition of a monopoly?

    Anybody seeing the hypocrisy here?

    Government monopoly = good and just.
    Corporate (not actually) monopoly = oh the horror!
     
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  22. 404profound
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    You have to think about the personality profile of folks who ascend to power in the government. Generally, professional brown-nosers who abandon all logic in favor of rubbing shoulders with the right people. So when they are confronted with something they don't actually understand they fear it and their reflex is to throw legislation at it. Most of them are string puppets for wall street anyway, but in this case there may actually be a hint of authenticity. Of course, it's uninformed authenticity, but it's authenticity.
     
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  23. splok
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    The Fair Housing Act and EEOC exemptions make sense right? Under certain, small-scale conditions, the rules don't apply. Where to draw the line is another story of course, but clearly it's possible to do so. There's a bit of room for error between a highly successful forum and a company whose execs overthrow countries while on vacation:

    Wael Ghonim Rejoins Egypt's 'Internet Revolution' as Mubarak Clings to Power
    I mean, I'm sure that doesn't spill over into his day-job right? Ok, a little sarcastic, but when this is the kind of person you have running a company, imagining that its actions are driven by rational capitalism and that interests are aligned seems just a bit hopeful.

    But forget about Google and Facebook for a second, since as was mentioned earlier, no one "needs" them. But what about Visa and Mastercard? Is it ok for them to ban you and your business because they don't like x? They don't have monopoly on transactions, right? You can always accept cash :)

    As it becomes more acceptable to eliminate people who disagree with you, it will happen more often, it will happen more extensively, and it will happen for a broader and broader range of things. Some slopes really are slippery.
     
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  24. 404profound
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    Holy shit, I need to read more.
     
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  25. ZF Lee
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    I guess that is why we have market mechanisms like takeovers, mergers and acquisitions, and shorting.

    You can't do these kinds of things to a government, besides voting them out (in my country, the voting-out process took a few years' worth of general elections to snowball traction lol).

    I can see why you might choose corporations as the lesser of two evils.

    These giants were once small folks, who enacted disruptive strategies tat overturned the titans before them. Facebook for MySpace, and Google for Yahoo and Alta Vista. This pattern can repeat again.

    This reminds me of an interesting thing my finance tutor at university said recently.

    He recommended that civil servants and folks who deal with public budgets and government spending, should all go take courses and certifications on public finance, which is a different field than your regular accounting or finance courses.

    Unfortunately, most don't even have any prior background close to that.

    A great alternative for the politicians who don't have that benefit, is to rope in the relevant advisers.

    I remember when Trump first came into power, he got folks like General Mattis and Elon Musk (too bad they resigned from their posts). Good men and women who definitely had more experience and connections outside of government. Even for my country, the PM got together top folks like Robert Quok and Zeti (our past head of our national bank) for a limited-period advisory tenure to settle what the past government screwed up.

    One of their best results was stopping some expensive Chinese projects that could have become bad debt traps, but that meant the construction industry would slow down for a bit. Still, there's life after the slowdown, I guess.

    I just wonder who's advising Warren on the matter. Somehow I never hear of their team on the other side of the political spectrum.
     
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