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Elizabeth Warren: Break up Big Tech

Discussion in 'Asset Protection/Taxes/Legal' started by MJ DeMarco, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. rogue synthetic
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    rogue synthetic * Not actually Rutger Hauer Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    You only had to listen

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Roli
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    Roli Gold Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    If someone posted an ad on here for their business forum you too might take it down, and nobody would blame you. I'm surprised Facebook put it back up, I wouldn't have.

    Same.

    This is nothing new, I was born in the 70s so remember when the only place you could get news from were newspapers and TV companies all owned by about six people. If that isn't an example of political influence and corrupting power, I don't know what is.

    Nope, a monopoly is a situation whereby nobody is allowed a piece of the pie, nothing is stopping anyone creating their own Amazon or Google.

    Agreed, punishing success seems anti-American (this coming from a Brit).

    Lol! Only!

    Not so, you pay with your time and metrics, you are their product, that isn't free.

    -

    For me the whole debacle is strange, it's like the death of the American dream, come here make it big from nothing, but not too big mind or we'll demonise you and steal your profits.

    Amazon started from a garage and had people openly mocking it for years, Google started in similar circumstances. Bezos and Page weren't given help from government schills, they simply had great ideas and executed them and in the case of Bezos, simply refused to give up.

    I say leave them alone.
     
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  3. 404profound
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    404profound Gold Contributor I've Read UNSCRIPTED Speedway Pass

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    This is probably not helping Facebook's case.
     
  4. Maxboost
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    Maxboost Silver Contributor I've Read UNSCRIPTED Speedway Pass

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    The Giants are the ones creating the rules and barriers to entry. Thats the problem!!!

    I remember we briefly learned this in business school and a common tactic that oligopolies and monopolies use to stiffle the competition.

    An example was MMA. As huge fan, the UFC blocked the Pride Fighting Championship by petitioning the CSAC from barring Pride to do business in the states due to their fight rules being "dangerous". Now this same fight organization is trying to implement some of the same rules as Pride such as hitting a downed opponent. What a joke..
     
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  5. MTEE1985
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    MTEE1985 The world belongs to the risk takers Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your post but you don’t actually believe this about time and metrics do you? The toilet got my time earlier, does that make me its product?

    I have no love lost for the people with a severe external locus of control who complain about how much time they spend online like it’s a genetic disease.

    The last time I logged into Facebook was 2011 so how do they get my time (besides right now talking about the company) if you don’t use the site, they don’t get your time. If you don’t advertise or purchase through them they don’t get your money. If you do then you’ve entered into a mutually agreeable business transaction.

    They probably still get your metrics somehow but if anybody believes they can use the Internet today and not have their data pulled and tracked and sold they might be clinically insane.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019 at 12:59 PM
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  6. Rabby
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    Rabby Silver Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    Yes. That's exactly what I object to as well. Government powers are frequently abused, and end up under the influence of the worst abusers. When you see politicians jumping in with their 1 minute messiah snippets, they're not trying to stop the abuse. They're just siding with the blue team abusers, instead of the red team ones.

    This is not a new problem at all. The Great Depression was made significantly longer and worse by union lobbies, farm lobbies, etc, that wanted to prop up food prices. They passed the Smoot-Hawley tariff with the express intention of increasing food prices for an already financially distressed population. I have two copies of EE Schattshneider's book chronicling the pressure lobbyists' efforts (because all the other copies have been shredded or exported apparently... why the heck is this book rare?). Later, children in the US actually starved while facilities incinerated pigs because they didn't want cheap pork on the market. Same story arc.

    But here's the thing. These 'powers' don't just become powerful first, and then abuse government. They become powers (once they reach noticeable size anyway) by abusing government to gain power over others, squash or devalue or weigh down competitors, or they exploit government rules (made by them or competitors or industry groups) that pay them unreasonable favors. Their economic power is relative - the reason it is so out of balance is, very often, because they are exploiting incentives, laws, or rules that effectively exclude you. Your rights are not documented with the same ink as theirs! This can take the form of encouraging excessive regulations to lock out new market entries, or placing legal limits on number of operators (as taxi companies famously did, and it worked for a while), or simply calling a regulator and getting an upstart competitor shut down or audited. It's usually done with the angelic-sounding stated intent of "helping the people" or "encouraging a robust market." It's the opposite.

    Don't expect politicians to come to the rescue of the little folks. They won't... most of them are part of the game. If you want to break monopolies, examine what special rules they are exploiting, what special incentives they are getting, what patent monopolies they're being granted (and with what level of preferential treatment), and then make sure people who are not crooked can do the same things. The monopolies will break themselves then. Unfortunately to do that, you'll have to walk through the fire. Make some friends at think tanks, or start one, or collect a few true believers in government and support their efforts if you have the skills.
     
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  7. Roli
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    Roli Gold Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    Hahaha! :-D No. But the toilet doesn't actively seek advertisers to fill erm, ahem, space...

    Exactly, you're not one of their products.

    Or own and use a VPN...

    ... still cracking up about that toilet comment! :rofl::rofl::rofl:
     
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  8. ChrisV
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    ChrisV Gold Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED Speedway Pass

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    I don't know. I don;t know that I'm a huge fan of anti-trust actions. What we've been fed is that 'monopolies are bad' etc... but i don't know that that's true. I mean Microsoft was basically a monopoly and the PC revolution did tremendous good for humanity. Google could be considered a monopoly but that's because everyone else sucks. If you want to beat Google, stop sucking. Amazon is soon the be a monopoly. I really don't know because I feel like these companies make our lives better. I'd have to see the proposed effects of such a breakup and if there's any evidence that it would be beneficial.

    I think what he's refering to is the use of your data. These companies use your data to send you targeted ads/ So people argue that 'since it's your data and they're making money off you, you are the product'
     
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  9. Kid
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    Kid Bronze Contributor Speedway Pass

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    a)
    more regulations = more communism
    more communism = more suffer to people

    b)
    less regulation = more free market
    more free market = more suffer to people

    a = b
     
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  10. ChrisV
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    ChrisV Gold Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED Speedway Pass

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    This type of overly simplistic black and white thinking is what get us in trouble.
     
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  11. Kak
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    Kak Capitalist Swine Read Millionaire Fastlane FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    If the free market bothers you why are you even on an entrepreneur forum?

    There is no better system of exchange than one where people are free and willing to exchange.
     
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  12. jcvlds
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    jcvlds JC Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    Seriously...

    Reducing complex subjects to such high level of abstraction like how you stated the above makes it impossible to have any meaning. There are so many underlying factors and intricacies behind pretty much every word you mentioned: ‘regulation’ (in which area, what kind, to what degree, etc), ‘free market’, ‘suffer’ (? what kind of suffering, to what degree, etc), ‘people’ (who?)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  13. Kid
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    Kid Bronze Contributor Speedway Pass

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    @ChrisV, @Kak ,@jcvlds thank You for responses.

    The thing that bothers me is that both ways: wild capitalism and communism
    are proved to hurt large groups of average people.

    Its not the idea of capitalism or communism that is bad. Its the execution.
     
  14. MTEE1985
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    MTEE1985 The world belongs to the risk takers Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    Not sure why the capitalism has to be “wild” and communism doesn’t have an adjective attached.

    Anyway, capitalist economy countries: http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/capitalist-countries/

    Interesting to note that all the Scandinavian countries that people think are these socialist utopias are actually quite capitalistic as well.

    Contrast the list above to the most famous communist/socialist economies of China, Cuba, North Korea and the former Soviet Union and it’s hard even worth a discussion as to which one is a superior option. Capitalism would at least give these people a fighting chance instead of zero chance.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019 at 12:02 PM
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  15. Kak
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    Kak Capitalist Swine Read Millionaire Fastlane FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    What is the proof that capitalism hurts large groups of average people? The reality is quite the contrary.

    Quoting my younger self:

    There is zero connection between wealth redistribution and the advancement of society. (Which is this middleground you are talking about.)

    Very few would disagree that we have a pretty great standard of living in the USA... Possibly the best of the larger countries in the world. That said, my question for you is this... What drove our country to this point? No one in the US needs to go hungry, very very few do. No one in the US works in working conditions like that of just 50 years ago. No one in the US is forced to work long hours. Very few that are truly willing to work are unemployed.

    The WORKING CLASS are buying big beautiful homes with very little sacrifice, or risk. They are driving luxurious automobiles and flying on airplanes to go on nice vacations every year. They are playing golf. They are healthier and happier than ever before.

    Ask a working class guy from the 1950s what his lifestyle looked like... It was quite different.

    Did government do this? HELL No!

    The reason for this constant improvement... FREE MARKET Capitalism... Government does not advance society. Evil, greedy, capitalist pigs advance society.

    Capitalism begot machinery that reduced human workload.

    Capitalism harnessed the energy stored in fuels to further reduce workload.

    Capitalism begot railways that spread economies far and wide.

    Capitalism begot cars that made capitalist exchange even more efficient within city centers.

    Capitalism made air travel affordable for the masses.

    Capitalism begot technology that turned us into an information sector economy.

    Capitalism creates the value that employs people. Even government indirectly.

    Capitalism is virtuous. Win-win, trade-up value exchanges create opportunity for everyone.

    All along the way there was a producer that made a killing off of each and every one of these advancements. They deserve it.

    What has the government done? Bombs people, jails citizens, blows resources on frivolous endeavors, death marches our soldiers into battle, kills (mostly minority) unborn babies, regulates and creates expensive compliance issues, makes trying to “capitalism” the world forward a living hell and they charge us 40-60 percent of everything we earn for the privilege. For their "help."

    All of this said, the facts are there... The money is much better left with us greedy capitalists. Government is where value goes to die.

    So build... build the most audacious pile of money you possibly can. Capitalistically exchange your way to the biggest business you possibly can build. Along the way you will provide means for all of your employees and value to your customers and shareholders. The world is better for your efforts...

    Uncle Sam is dead weight.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019 at 2:27 PM
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  16. G-Man
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    I think I've related this story on the forum before, but this thread seems like a good place to re-iterate. It is the story of one of the first stark moments that made me realize that I didn't belong in the non-profit world anymore.

    I was in a meeting where they were talking about "social justice" as it pertains to ethnic minorities. Forget that social justice is tautological. All justice is social. If the world consisted of 1 guy alone on a desert island, there would be no concept of justice, but I digress.

    Me the lonely guy in a room of PhD's, and the subject got onto how capitalism doesn't work, and cannot solve complex problems. So, here we are, people from at least 7 different countries, meeting in a single location. We took commercial jets manufactured in the USA, flown with fuel drilled in the middle east, met in a room in a country none of us lived in, in a pre-set office rented from an owner in Europe. We're sitting there typing on devices designed in California, manufactured in China, and sold by distributors in Europe. The room is kept cool by a device called an air conditioner that none of us knows how to make, and installed by a person that none of us can even communicate with because we don't speak the language. One of our colleagues couldn't make it. He's joining us via teleconference from a signal that literally travels to space and then back to earth.

    All of this, and these PhDs are sitting around talking about how capitalism can't solve complex problems. I don't know why, but in that one serendipitous moment, the absurdity all somehow hit me at the same time.

    I had one foot out the door after that.
     
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  17. Kid
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    This is very interesting discussion. So thank all for providing their experience and insights.
    (Which i guess are more diverse and sound then on so called social media.)

    The problem, probably, lays in the extremes.

    Extreme capitalism is what Standard Oil did in early days - one one coast where the competition still existed the gallon of gas was at $1. On the other coast where there were none of competitors, gallon of gas was about $7 or $11, at a same cost of production.

    You might believe in self-governance of private sector. I don't. 2008 crisis is one of recent examples if you don't want go as far back as to Standard Oil times.

    Communism is what China does today. Corruption among local gov is very high. People are invigilated with street cameras and artificial intelligence-based face recognition. Not to mention state of free speech in China.

    The regulation based economy ("centrally planned economy") failed every time it was implemented.


    The reasons in this (and previous) post are the reason that i can't stand for any of the sides.
     
  18. Kak
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    Kak Capitalist Swine Read Millionaire Fastlane FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    What was so wrong with Rockefeller? Why was he so bad? Because "people" say he was?

    Looking at him from another angle, he almost single handedly put light in the homes of every American and later provided the economy with fuel for their cars. None of which they would have otherwise been able to get at that particular point in time.

    The option was fuel or no fuel. Buy or dont buy. Thankfully a lot of people had the option to buy when many didn't.

    The gasoline thing is inacurate because he started with lamp oil, gasoline was a byproduct of Kerosene production and didn't enter the picture until the car was invented.

    For the sake of argument... Let's say your numbers are true... What's wrong with this anyway? First of all, transportation of product was costlier than production back then. So it is realistic that product literally had to be higher priced on the west coast than the east. High prices don't put competitors out of business, low prices do. Higher margins actually create opportunities for new entrants.

    For that to even be an endeavor he took on, there must have been a market willing to pay to have the product transported out there, despite the higher pricing. Being the good businessman he was, he figured out what it took to make sense to deliver product there. They got fuel when they would have had nothing. That doesn't sound so bad does it?

    Rockefeller also employed massive amounts of people that would have otherwise not been working.

    There are two sides to every coin. Don't believe everything you hear. It is popular to demonize every businessman. As long as people have freedom of choice, there is nothing ever wrong with a business making large profits.

    How could the government have "fixed" this "problem?" The only answer involves tying a lead weight to economic progress.

    The 2008 crisis was indirectly the fault of government policy designed to provide home loans to people that were not qualified for them.

    When they legislate what is considered an acceptable loan and they insure the bank against default by buying the loans, banks will listen and send loans up the pipeline. This made homes more valuable on paper and the cycle repeats until the music stops.

    Mortgage backed securities? Well people should have done more research at a time politically in our country when people were regularly buying homes they couldn't afford.

    "2008" was not a failure of capitalism. It was capitalism correcting a government created problem after the music stopped.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019 at 3:36 PM
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  19. Maxboost
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    Maxboost Silver Contributor I've Read UNSCRIPTED Speedway Pass

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    He was the second richest man in the history of the world right behind Genghis Khan (nothing wrong with that) estimated worth was over 300 billion dollars. His wealth dwarfed Bezo, Gates and everyone on the Forbes list today.

    With his wealth, he incredible influence which you can argue was DESTRUCTIVE to society.
    • squashed the bio fuel industry (global warming anyone? oil spills?)
    • Had a hand in destroying the electric car
    • had a hand in the creation of the federal reserve (uh oh libertarians would hate that!)
    • Took control of the education system at the time, controlled information and history, imagine controlling the internet

    With his $300 billion dollar net worth, he could have EASILY bought EVERY industry up at the time or petitioned the government to go to war with oil rich nations to control the supply of oil like what Debeers does with Diamonds (but hey free markets and shareholder value right?)

    Not allowing a competitive market to function properly can set back human progress and technology, for example look at Thomas Edison vs Nicola Tesla with the AC vs DC current.


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QstrRR031XE


    Edison, with his wealth, set back human progress as we look back on how important AC current is!

    You're obviously not going to watch it since you are unwilling to change your mind but here you go. Feel free to point out any factual errors



    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osTbkdZAnBo&t=251s



    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySnk-f2ThpE
     
  20. Kak
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    Kak Capitalist Swine Read Millionaire Fastlane FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    You are so unbelievably stupid, yet you think this mess is intellegence. Wow.

    JDR died in 1937. Electricity was barely powering light bulbs... Electric cars and biofuel weren't even words yet.

    This is actually rather funny. Enjoy my ignore list.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019 at 4:29 PM
  21. minivanman
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    Exactly
     
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  22. Maxboost
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    Wow, world view challenged and now runs away when confronted. Sounds like a college student.

    Kak asked a question, I answered using facts and evidence.

    Not only that he misread the facts that I have stated but he did not understand the points that I was making.

    I forgot to mention the Ad hominem attacks which shows his immaturity. Sad really...
     
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  23. Brian Fleig
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    Posturing for attention. The next year, I suspect, will bring more and more outrageous ideas as they try to out-outrageous each other. Aside from that:

    A) Who would benefit from Face Book or Twitter being broken up?
    B) How could they be broken up? Neither is like a media company from which networks could be split off into separate entities.

    One reply said that in India, internet and FB are synonymous. That reminds me of when Internet and AOL were synonymous here to anyone who had Not been online pre WWW. Remember getting so many AOL CDs in the mail we were using them as coasters? AOL is gone almost without a trace now, victim to tech marching on. How long before FB and Twitter suffer the same?
     
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  24. minivanman
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    I'm just jumping in to the middle of a conversation that I did not read, I only read Kak' post but..... electric cars were around maybe even before gas powered cars. If not for Henry Ford, electric cars might have taken a much different turn. Even though he was invested in electric cars, at the time he gave it the TKO. It's amazing how long things like this have been around.... and since the day they made them, they've been racing them.
     
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  25. Tommo
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    Tommo Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED Speedway Pass

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    When governments take "action" to solve their perceived "problem" they inevitably invoke the Law of Unintended Consequences. I vote leave FB etc alone as private businesses.
     
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