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Elizabeth Warren: Break up Big Tech

Discussion in 'Asset Protection/Taxes/Legal' started by MJ DeMarco, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. 404profound
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    404profound Gold Contributor I've Read UNSCRIPTED Speedway Pass

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    Roping in relevant advisors is the gov's default strategy. If you knew the annual budget for 3rd party contractors you would shit your pants on the spot. When I was a government consultant I used to joke that the taxes coming out of my check paid the next one. It's funny because it's essentially true.
     
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    MTEE1985 The world belongs to the risk takers Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    I agree there is authenticity to her stance. I just wish she would tell the truth that she just doesn’t like these companies because she/the government don’t control them. Then I could have some respect for her.

    Under the guise of “competition” I know she’s full of shit because she’s about as anti-competition as they come.

    Don’t get me wrong, it’s brilliant because now her base will say “look at us, we’re encouraging competition! We’re capitalists too”

    Bulllllshitttt
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  3. 404profound
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    404profound Gold Contributor I've Read UNSCRIPTED Speedway Pass

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    It all comes back to this
     
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  4. MJ DeMarco
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    MJ DeMarco Raving Lunatic Staff Member Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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  5. 404profound
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    It's hard to be empathetic to the brainwashed crowd. I used to be a part of it, basically before reading your book and a few others. If people do not seek self-improvement or enlightenment, that's on them ultimately. In today's world you can't swing a dead cat without hitting valuable, free information. There are no excuses.
     
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    I consider myself one as well, and I've seen some pretty compelling arguments against corporations from individuals who previously were incredibly libertarian and free-market.

    For example, some claim that LLCs, corporations and such aren't true capitalist entities, but agents of government. They don't have the same legal liabilities as any individual or sole proprietor.

    I'm not educated at all about this topic, but I thought it'd be interesting to throw this out here to see your reaction to it.

    1. Are corporations truly capitalistic and free market?
    2. Let's assume corporations are agents of government. Why shouldn't the government then have the ability to break them up?

    I'm just watching this video by Vox Day on the topic and he brings up Facebook just as I write this. He's kind of a slow speaker, but he's got interesting viewpoints so just put it to 1.5x speed.

     
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  7. 404profound
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    404profound Gold Contributor I've Read UNSCRIPTED Speedway Pass

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    Isn't the essence of free market the assumption that anyone in under the jurisdiction of the law has equal access to establish an entity? Whether or not the established entity has unwieldy power seems secondary from my point of view, because anyone can start one if they do their homework. People ultimately choose whether or not they participate in the market. Just like in pro sports, most people are spectators, and the few put in the required work to reap the reward.
     
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  8. Yzn
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    How realistic is what she's proposing?
    Have you guys read: Confession of Economic Hit-man by John Perkins?
    Isn't the strongest weapon in the world right now an economical-based weapon? And the U.S is using it all over the world? Why would they try and decrease the power of Amazon when they are gaining control over local and world markets day by day and controlling what can be sold and who can sell it?

    Same goes with social media, normal media, movie industry and U.S companies that own big chunks of foreign markets with their power? Let's not talk about oil/energy companies...I live in the Middle East and I know how the U.S government (the ones who influence it ie. lobbys etc.) stands tall and strong by stepping on our corpses using their corporations to get to it.

    Not trying to get politics involved but in my understanding this will never happen. Or if it does it has to do with manipulative policies that will just strengthen the U.S government control worldwide while it shows everyone that change is happening.

    The U.S government has so much power over its people and foreign nations that they won't let someone risk their control. It's not conspiracy it's facts known by everyone. Or should be.
     
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  9. MTEE1985
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    That thought was in the context of election opinions and how influential social media and Hollywood try to be. In which case we’d have a single party government and one side (not saying which) would have a 90-10 senate majority and probably 350-85 in the house.

    In general though, I completely agree. The public is severely incapable of thinking for themselves, to the point where it’s scary.

    Interesting article on Spotify and I’ll be following that case. The buzzwords are all there. Who says competition has to be “fair”? Ethical, yes, but why fair?

    My other thought is where would Spotify be without Apple? Are they biting the hand that feeds them?
     
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    The 30% fee is interesting, that's why you can't buy audible books on the Apple app. They saw in the article that Uber and some other companies do not need to pay the fee, so I can see their point.

    But, one has to wonder that when you start a company that uses an App and is sold in the app store, you must know that things aren't going to be fair at some point.
     
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    I think we need to distinguish between equal and fair. If you sign up to the store and agree to the terms, the terms are fair. But they wouldn't be equal.

    Just as the terms of your business. The terms are not equal for both parties. But both parties come to arrangement... so they are fair.
     
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  12. MJ DeMarco
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    Yes but at some point, an open market becomes a closed market. The corporations are governments upon themselves, saying who and what can do business, and at what price.

    Because Apple (yet) doesn't have an arm competing with Uber. If Apple was in the business of ride sharing, then you bet there would be fees.

    I think we all agree that we should be able to deal with competitors as we see fit -- the issue is when one corporation controls an entire market, or most of it. The iOS + App Store fits that mold.

    The issue is when these trillion dollar corporations become quasi-governments unto themselves without any recourse or arbitration.

    The line between "big government" and "big corporate oligarchs" is so blurred that they're essentially the same thing.

    IMO, neither is good for anyone. And when they collude with each other, it's even worse. (Look into how many FB execs have connections to Washington DC.)

    Just not sure there is any amicable solution...
     
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  13. NovaAria
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    Exactly! What would happen if Amazon stopped being a US based weapon, and became a chinese one? This is in fact the object of the interview someone linked in the thread earlier, about Twitter and Russia's involvement in the elections.
    These are times where corporations are becoming more and more immaterial. Headquarters in one country and factories in another, while tech support is in a third and the CEO's penthouse is in a fourth. Where does the company's loyalty lie? With profits.
    And rest assured. If someone finds a way to monetize misfortune, they will.
     
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  14. 404profound
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    Apple may not have a ride sharing solution entered in the market yet, but I know two people there working on machine learning algorithms to automate object detection in chassis.
     
  15. Sebastya
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    Meritocracy. If we want to break up the tech giants we need to vote with our wallets/time otherwise it's a case of cognitive dissonance.
     
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  16. Rabby
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    Not a political statement, just analysis: A politician proposing something like this doesn't have your best interests at heart.

    The end result will be some outcome they or their sponsors desire (whoever is threatened by 'big tech', a political group that big tech doesn't make contributions to, or whoever benefits in terms of finance or power).

    Some things to consider about "big <insert-industry-here>":
    • If you take the 'subsidies' companies like facebook and google receive from various levels of government, once those companies are at a certain size where they qualify for such things, you can build a staircase to the moon by stacking the $100 bills. It's billions of dollars every year.
    • SEC regulations favor public funding of large companies, while locking small companies out of traditionally the largest source of capital and liquidity (also notably throwing a bone to the banking industry by shoving fundraising in their direction).
    • IP laws are typically amended to favor Goliath market strategies. Look at DMCA, or copyright changes to benefit Disney, as examples.
    • The legal system favors big corporate litigators on IP issues, to the point where a small operator has a Herculean trial before him/her if he is wedged between a cash-rich corporate legal department and all the laws and court rulings that already favor the big dog.
    • Legislatures are just so exhausted by pressure politics, you might wonder if they have any ideas of their own. It's not Bob the Mechanic who's writing new law in most cases, and it's not Susan the Legislator. It's Frank the corporate/industry lobbyist; sorry to break the news.
    Is it any wonder "big ___" is so big? The last people I want telling me how to "break up" things that are too big are the people who are facilitating and protecting the big-ness.
     
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  17. 404profound
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    404profound Gold Contributor I've Read UNSCRIPTED Speedway Pass

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    Just saw the links at the bottom of your profile. Do any pertain to PWAs?
     
  18. Rabby
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    Oh, and I saw "free market" in the thousands of pages here. Giants are typically not products of free markets. They're the results of exploiting limitations on freedom in the markets. The more limitations you add, the more there is for them to exploit.

    Side note: the word "unfettered" fills me with the urge to kill. "We can't have unfettered 'capitalism,' good heavens!" We don't have it, and the shackles are what screw things up most of the time.
     
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    That’s not true according to my Indian friend except for maybe very rural areas
     
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  20. 404profound
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    I'd read something before that India heavily favored facebook because of the pricing model around regular internet there. Checking back now, it looks like that strategy failed fabulously, so, my bad.
     
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    Simple, but so true. The essence of free market exchange is choice. No one has a gun to anyone’s head. No one is forcing terms on anyone.

    An agreement is an agreement... Fair is both parties upholding their commitment thereafter.
     
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    Rightfully so.

    Not one of these companies would provide us the amazingly valuable products and services they do if it wasn’t rooted in profit seeking.

    The entire advancement of civilization beyond a “do everything yourself” economy is rooted in profit.

    Would you want to own stock in a company that wasn’t seeking profits? What is wrong with profit? Profit means someone voluntarily gave you money in exchange for something they like better than money. A win for you and a win for them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
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    So go around it.

    Netflix is curbing a $256 million revenue stream for Apple by circumventing iTunes billing

    Like you said, there is no magical correct answer and I’m probably (definitely) being overly simplistic, but I think Netflix is on the better path by saying FU, we’ll go around you instead of how Spotify is crying “no fair” to mommy and hoping mommy makes things all better. Though given that Apple and Google charge everybody the same for in app purchases and they aren’t singling Spotify out, I would be surprised to see Apple lose on this.

    In any event, how do you even punish an Apple with a balance sheet and income statement like they have? A $5,000,000,000 fine like Google got? That’s a borderline rounding error for Apple, talk about scary.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  24. Kak
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    Right... We forget Netflix, Spotify, Uber all have leverage too. Apple customers would be pissed if these companies were able to convince customers that they don’t have the app functionality they want (and android users do) because Apple was dicking around with the deal.

    In a negotiation, party 1 wants the best deal possible for party 1 and party 2 wants the best deal possible for party 2. If there is acceptable overlap between the two... The deal will occur somewhere within that window. If one party decides to be unreasonable, or simply can’t get the terms in that window, the deal won’t happen. Everyone has customers to please pushing it towards the center.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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    Although I think breaking up big tech will help spur more innovation by making it easier for startups to play in the social media arena. What will probably happen if they do break up a company like Facebook is it will become more profitable.

    When they made Standard Oil break up it unlocked more value and now the parts of those companies are worth more than the whole.

    Once big companies and brands start spending more of their ad budgets on Facebook that they are now spending on TV, the ad prices will skyrocket and the little guys using FB and IG to advertise their small businesses will get blown out of the water and not be able to compete. I know this comment is a bit off topic but thought important enough to mention.
     

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