Business Ethics- Kak vs Dragon

[Kak]

@Black_Dragon43 I’m calling you out for a civil discussion if possible.

I’ve seen your point made several times that lying, half truths, and ruthlessness are helpful in business. I’m a bit taken aback that these posts are getting the likes they are getting.

I think this is a dangerous thing to be teaching impressionable new entrepreneurs.

I am going to make the claim that honesty and man-of-your-word business practices are not only ethically superior to scorched earth, anything goes stuff… But also, eventually, more financially rewarding.

I have said before, reputation is a form of currency. A good reputation is a massive business asset you can lean on as time goes on. I believe a business person should be as squeaky clean as humanly possible and that we should build our empires not at the expenses of our reputation, but while also building a better and better reputation.

Another reason- I want to set my kids up with the family name.

Another reason- I don’t want be a part of the socialist narrative.

I believe any idiot can win today at the expense of tomorrow. It takes self control and intelligence to have longer term horizons and consider your future even at the expense of today.

I stand by the quote that you should do something today that your future self will thank you for. Nuking your future prospects doesn’t adhere.

I evidently don’t have the same kind of time in the day to write giant a$$ dissertations like you to every post, so please be patient with my responses.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[constant-in]

Hi,
I appreciate this "callout" very much. Especially as someone who is new here. Thanks for that.

It's quite concerning to see that posts promoting lying, half-truths, and ruthlessness in business are receiving positive attention. While it's true that some individuals may find short-term success through these tactics, it's important to recognize that morally and ethically, such behavior is wrong.
In my experience, engaging in dishonest practices not only erodes trust among colleagues and clients, but also poses a significant risk to the long-term success and reputation of a business.

The line between unethical behavior and outright fraud can be incredibly thin, and crossing that threshold can result in severe legal consequences.

I agree with you that it is far more beneficial to prioritize integrity, honesty, and ethical decision-making in order to foster sustainable and responsible business practices.

Best,

 

[Kak]

In preparation for @Black_Dragon43 to arrive, I would like to ask the other participants in this thread to give him a fair shake and allow him to form a complete argument.

His argument is one I clearly believe to be damaging, but nonetheless, let’s fully settle this, with as little emotions as possible.

 

[Antifragile]

I’ve never screwed anyone. Don’t plan on it either.

If for no other reason (and there are many) because you only live with one person all your life - you. I prefer to like that person! At the end of it, looking backwards: old and grumpy, I’d like to say “I did some good” not “I made money screwing others”.

Also, all your points on businesses are valid and spot on.

Ethics is a luxury that most of us can afford with relative ease. No saints, but as the way a judge once defined pornography “you’ll know it when you see it”… same with business ethics. You’ll always know when you are being bad.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[heavy_industry]

There is already too much suffering in this world. I don't think I want to make matters worse.

My primary motivation in business is to try to improve other people's lives. Even if my products only offer a marginal 1% improvement in quality of life for some people, that is a win in my book.

If I make money in the process, great. That's an awesome side-effect of good business.

We have a very limited amount of time on this planet.
We are not the permanent owners of our life, we just got ~80 years of free rent from God.

The question is how are we going to use the gift that we have been given?
How wonderful can we make our lives, and how much can we improve this world for the next generations of human beings?

That's the only thing that will matter once we close our eyes forever. How well did we live, and how impactful was our activity.

I don't consider myself to be a good or a bad person, because I know that I am more than capable of doing both good and evil, like everybody else.

I just want to live my life and run my businesses in a manner that makes me proud of my actions.

When I will be on my deathbed, weak, old, and no longer able to squat 400 pounds, I want to leave this world with 0 regrets, knowing that I did everything that I could do, and I was everything that I could be.

 

[Kevin88660]

@Black_Dragon43 I’m calling you out for a civil discussion if possible.

I’ve seen your point made several times that lying, half truths, and ruthlessness are helpful in business. I’m a bit taken aback that these posts are getting the likes they are getting.

I think this is a dangerous thing to be teaching impressionable new entrepreneurs.

I am going to make the claim that honesty and man-of-your-word business practices are not only ethically superior to scorched earth, anything goes stuff… But also, eventually, more financially rewarding.

I have said before, reputation is a form of currency. A good reputation is a massive business asset you can lean on as time goes on. I believe a business person should be as squeaky clean as humanly possible and that we should build our empires not at the expenses of our reputation, but while also building a better and better reputation.

Another reason- I want to set my kids up with the family name.

Another reason- I don’t want be a part of the socialist narrative.

I believe any idiot can win today at the expense of tomorrow. It takes self control and intelligence to have longer term horizons and consider your future even at the expense of today.

I stand by the quote that you should do something today that your future self will thank you for. Nuking your future prospects doesn’t adhere.

I evidently don’t have the same kind of time in the day to write giant a$$ dissertations like you to every post, so please be patient with my responses.

I don’t think anyone argues that you can get far in business lying, cheating, and screwing people.

Most likely if anyone starts their business that way they are not going to have any initial gain from any victim.

The big bad guys you see in TV ending up in jail abused the trust of their clients, had at least did years of honest business to gain the trust. It took years of hard work.

Small fraudsters can just cheat their family members and best friends.

On the other hand I don’t think anyone can survive in business being obsessed with following every rule and social norm uncreatively.

The really debatable tactics are the following example.

*Violating platform rules by signing up multiple accounts with bot to do growth hack for your business
*Use AI to write blogs to fool Google SEO to drive traffic to your business
*Set up a final expense insurance agency hiring fresh out if college girls targeting boomer generation men with assess to their retirement accounts
*Meta lobbying congress to kill competitor Tiktok
*Having made in China products assembled at Vietnam for the last step to avoid U.S. import tariff

Most business in the traditional industries like have many rules to follow due to regulation.

If you have an honest conversation with the small businesses you will realise 80 percent of the profitable companies would not have any margin if they followed everything comprehensively and religiously.

 

[ZF Lee]

@Black_Dragon43 I’m calling you out for a civil discussion if possible.

I’ve seen your point made several times that lying, half truths, and ruthlessness are helpful in business. I’m a bit taken aback that these posts are getting the likes they are getting.

I think this is a dangerous thing to be teaching impressionable new entrepreneurs.

I am going to make the claim that honesty and man-of-your-word business practices are not only ethically superior to scorched earth, anything goes stuff… But also, eventually, more financially rewarding.

I have said before, reputation is a form of currency. A good reputation is a massive business asset you can lean on as time goes on. I believe a business person should be as squeaky clean as humanly possible and that we should build our empires not at the expenses of our reputation, but while also building a better and better reputation.

Another reason- I want to set my kids up with the family name.

Another reason- I don’t want be a part of the socialist narrative.

I believe any idiot can win today at the expense of tomorrow. It takes self control and intelligence to have longer term horizons and consider your future even at the expense of today.

I stand by the quote that you should do something today that your future self will thank you for. Nuking your future prospects doesn’t adhere.

I evidently don’t have the same kind of time in the day to write giant a$$ dissertations like you to every post, so please be patient with my responses.

Thanks for the thread, although I'm taken aback at the sudden turn.

I'm all for being honest and straightforward with the people we work with.
It's less exhausting that way.

Imagine having to craft so many 'stories' about yourself, while working on your Fastlane!
Only a master politician could do that. And most of us don't have that kind of finesse.

I've been tempted before to 'puff' up my credentials, when I applied for my first 9-5 jobs or even my copywriting work.

Then I realised I was doing it from a place of fear.

Fear that I wouldn't get picked for the work ahead, because I didn't have X credential or Y achievement that they were asking for. Neediness.

For me, the way to overcome this was not only to be open about your weaknesses (at least, with the customers or partners you work with), but you tell them HOW you are working on remedying them. Even better if you have some progress already.

I DON'T pretend I know everything and can be Superman.

I could also look closer if what they are asking for is TRULY what they need...

I give you an example:

For one of my last email marketing jobs, I was asked if I had any 'advanced' experience in creating online sales funnels from scratch.

I could lie around and use my existing portfolio to trumpet up something.

I just said, "I haven't created an entire sales funnel from scratch yet. What I've been tasked to do so far, was to just write sales copy for key milestones of the funnel, like the emails, bonuses and the bullets. But you shared earlier that you were still making money from your current sales process...and you just needed to 'resurrect' your largely inactive email list.

Perhaps MOST of your funnel is fine...it's just that you need to get your email responses going.

I can help get a few drafts sent out first, and we'll see how they respond to the rest of your funnel."

We started working the next day.

On ruthlessness though, what I understand from it is that at one point, we do need to take a firm stance.
If someone is purposely trying to steal our time or ruin our businesses...he must be dealt with.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[James Klymus]

I’ve seen @Black_Dragon43 posts lately, specifically the one about ego.

I get the sense that he’s being provocative on purpose, similar to Andrew Tate.

There is some truth in the things black dragon posts, as well as the things @Kak posts. Although, I think kak argues his points in a more eloquent way. I look forward to this discussion.

 

[biophase]

@Black_Dragon43 I’m calling you out for a civil discussion if possible.

I’ve seen your point made several times that lying, half truths, and ruthlessness are helpful in business. I’m a bit taken aback that these posts are getting the likes they are getting.

I think this is a dangerous thing to be teaching impressionable new entrepreneurs.

Making money may be black and white for some people, but when it comes to the overall arc of life, making money with questionable morals with be minus EV for most.

I just had a "friend" today send me a text that said, "don't tell them our products are made in China, they want made in the USA." Honestly, just this text made me not want to be his friend any more.

Take this tiny example and multiply it by thousands of interactions within your life and see how many true friends you have at 40, 50, 60. How do you trust someone as a friend when you know they aren't trustworthy in business?

I am going to make the claim that honesty and man-of-your-word business practices are not only ethically superior to scorched earth, anything goes stuff… But also, eventually, more financially rewarding.

This is so true. As we get older, we tend to gather with like minded peers. How you've conducted yourself in the past is how others will continue to see you. Once you damage your rep, it is pretty much irreparable.

Nobody here is lending BD $1,000 because he's putting money above friendship. When times get tough, his last $1,000 is going to benefit him, not to pay you back. At least this is the narrative he is creating.

The crazy thing is that by putting honestly and integrity first, you actually will make more money. A few years ago I was short $200k on a deal and 2 members wired me $100k each, I paid them back in a few months. Profit on that deal is easily $500k. Without trust, that deal wouldn't have closed.

I have said before, reputation is a form of currency. A good reputation is a massive business asset you can lean on as time goes on. I believe a business person should be as squeaky clean as humanly possible and that we should build our empires not at the expenses of our reputation, but while also building a better and better reputation.

Just this past October, I texted my friend for some cash and here was his response. Do I get this loan without a good reputation?

 

[Kevin88660]

Making money may be black and white for some people, but when it comes to the overall arc of life, making money with questionable morals with be minus EV for most.

I just had a "friend" today send me a text that said, "don't tell them our products are made in China, they want made in the USA." Honestly, just this text made me not want to be his friend any more.

Take this tiny example and multiply it by thousands of interactions within your life and see how many true friends you have at 40, 50, 60. How do you trust someone as a friend when you know they aren't trustworthy in business?


This is so true. As we get older, we tend to gather with like minded peers. How you've conducted yourself in the past is how others will continue to see you. Once you damage your rep, it is pretty much irreparable.

Nobody here is lending BD $1,000 because he's putting money above friendship. When times get tough, his last $1,000 is going to benefit him, not to pay you back. At least this is the narrative he is creating.

The crazy thing is that by not putting honestly and integrity first, you actually will make more money. A few years ago I was short $200k on a deal and 2 members wired me $100k each, I paid them back in a few months. Profit on that deal is easily $500k. Without trust, that deal wouldn't have closed.



Just this past October, I texted my friend for some cash and here was his response. Do I get this loan without a good reputation?

View attachment 48064

There are companies who have made in china almost finished products to have the last part of assembling done in Vietnam to bypass the tariff.

It is harder to spin made in China goods as made in U.S.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[MitchC]

I think this podcast from Hormozi is relevant. Just replace the word branding with reputation because they basically mean the same anyway.

MARKETING - Branding vs Direct Response (Alex Hormozi Podcast Discussion)

I was just sent this podcast episode by a friend who I’ve had a similar conversation with before. I really enjoyed it and think it could be interesting to discuss here. I remember when I first learned about direct response thinking that all these big brands were stupid and were wasting their...

www.thefastlaneforum.com

 

[Robdavis]

The crazy thing is that by not putting honestly and integrity first, you actually will make more money. A few years ago I was short $200k on a deal and 2 members wired me $100k each, I paid them back in a few months. Profit on that deal is easily $500k. Without trust, that deal wouldn't have closed.

Are you sure that this is what you meant? I think it should read "you will actually make LESS money". Otherwise it doesn't seem to fit with the rest of your post...
Or did you mean in the short term?

 

[Fox]

Taking all ethics out of it - lying is just a very ineffective strategy.

Once you get caught once, its pretty much all over.

I know a friend who now has to fire someone because they clearly lied about something small.
Because how does he know they don't always lie about other things? He doesn't.

Like just mentioning you do this on the forum is also going to have the same impact.
People just don't want to do business (or much at all) with people they can't trust.

So maybe you win the short game - but nothing will stack up to much over time.

We all had that one "friend" in the past who pulled a fast one on everyone in their social circle.
But where are they now? Drifting around trying to scam the next group of people and getting nowhere.


"The most important thing that you can do is to play long-term games with long-term people.
The problem is that most people are playing short-term games with long-term people.
They're playing zero-sum games.

They're trying to get the most out of the interaction in the next 10 minutes, next 10 days.
That is not the way to build trust.

The way to build trust is to play long-term games with people that you can trust.
It's a higher risk game, but it's a higher reward game as well."

- Naval

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[biophase]

Are you sure that this is what you meant? I think it should read "you will actually make LESS money". Otherwise it doesn't seem to fit with the rest of your post...
Or did you mean in the short term?

Sorry don’t know how the word Not got in there. Will fix it.

 

[heavy_industry]

Well said @Fox

Truth is the best long term strategy.

If you believe you can somehow bend the fabric of reality and lie your way to success, you are making a big mistake. The truth will always come to light.

And even if you were completely ignorant of the consequences of your actions and how others feel about you, don't forget that there will always be one person that will always know exactly who you are, and will know everything that you do.

And that person is you.

You cannot hide from yourself.

 

[Fox]

Well said @Fox

Truth is the best long term strategy.

If you believe you can somehow bend the fabric of reality and lie your way to success, you are making a big mistake. The truth will always come to light.

And even if you were completely ignorant of the consequences of your actions and how others feel about you, don't forget that there will always be one person that will always know exactly who you are, and will know everything that you do.

And that person is you.

You cannot hide from yourself.

Ya to me lying (and stealing) is communicating only one thing to yourself - lack.

That you lack the discipline or ability to get what you want without doing it in a dishonest way.

I can't think of a faster way to undermine your own self-worth.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Private Witt]

What about a scorched earth division campaign destroying your competition and enemies, creating an industry civil war through divide and conquer but not lying at all, using truth and justice, in fact telling them exactly what gonna happen letting their own corruption to add to their implosion.

Is this frowned down upon?

 

[kommen]

I'm not rich yet. But it doesn't take a genius to see that lying, dishonesty and betrayal are thinkings from the 95%.

Isn't MJ's whole philosophy is that if you want to achieve 1% results, you have to do 1% things?

 

[Black_Dragon43]

@Black_Dragon43 I’m calling you out for a civil discussion if possible.

No problem @Kak, because you are my friend and I am a lover of truth, I will engage in this discussion with you. I also appreciate @MJ DeMarco 's message in the other thread and I have spoken to MJ and mentioned that I will tone down my aggressive style because, truth be told, I like you guys, and I don't want to be kicked out. Also appreciate @Antifragile 's message.

Some preliminaries:
• A true criminal and dishonest person would never discuss what I am about to discuss with you publically. Because, a true criminal knows that crimes are committed in the shadows, and never in the light. In the light it is exactly as you say @Kak in the message below. Therefore, a true criminal would be saying that you should always be honest & ethical.

A good reputation is a massive business asset

• Second @biophase says that nobody here would lend me even $1,000. I certainly hope that that's not the case, because over the years I have paid you guys way more than $1,000 whether to MJ/the forum, people I've hired from here, people I've paid for their advice, etc. Perhaps more than $10,000 if we add all of it up. So if that were true, I think that wouldn't speak very good things about you.
• Third - I don't expect likes and agreement, because exactly as you say @Kak most people are too afraid to cover their behinds and reputations rather than investigate the truth, regardless of what it may cost them in terms of personal reputation. Not to mention that now the social dynamics, due to the message from MJ are entirely against me, and most people prefer to be on the side of the winners, regardless of whether they are right or not.

So @Kak here's what I will argue:

I am going to make the claim that honesty and man-of-your-word business practices are not only ethically superior to scorched earth, anything goes stuff… But also, eventually, more financially rewarding.

I will argue that being unethical & dishonest is more financially rewarding in the long term, and that the most successful people in the world are usually also the biggest criminals. In fact not only will I argue that, but I'll also argue that this has been the case all through human history.

What I will NOT argue is that it's preferable to be a criminal so long as you can get away with it. And the reason I won't argue that is because it presumes that the good life is a life where success is maximized regardless of the sacrifices that have to be made OR the risks that have to be assumed. That success is the only criteria by which to judge a life. And if one succeeds, then all is well. In other words, the health of your soul, sleeping well at night, doesn't matter at all. And that's not a claim I'm willing to make.

So my argument is about the facts -- criminals are the most successful people in the world. It's not about what SHOULD be the case, an idealism, but about what actually IS the case.

Now what do I mean by criminal? Someone who breaks all laws? A psychopath? Someone who has no moral values and who parks in the spot for handicapped people? Someone who screws over 80-year old grandmas?

No.

What I mean is this: someone who will do whatever it takes to succeed in the long run, even if succeeding involves hurting other people, cheating, lying, stealing or breaking other ethical norms. In other words, someone who chooses worldly success over his own soul and integrity. That person is a criminal, even if they may have committed no crimes yet.

Let me start by quoting a speech quoted by Machiavelli in Florentine Histories:

“It pains me much when I hear that out of conscience many of you repent the deeds that have been done and that you wish to abstain from new deeds; and certainly, if this is true, you are not the men I believed you to be, for neither conscience nor infamy should dismay you, because those who win, in whatever mode they win, never receive shame from it…. But if you will take note of the mode of proceeding of men, you will see that all those who come to great riches and great power have obtained them either by fraud or by force; and afterwards, to hide the ugliness of acquisition, they make it decent by applying the false title of earnings to things they have usurped by deceit or by violence. And those who, out of either little prudence or too much foolishness, shun these modes always suffocate in servitude or poverty. For faithful servants are always servants, and good men are always poor; nor do they ever rise out of servitude unless they are unfaithful and bold, nor out of poverty unless they are rapacious and fraudulent. For God and nature have put all the fortunes of men in their midst, where they are exposed more to rapine than to industry and more to wicked than to good arts, from which it arises that men devour one another and that those who can do less are always the worst off. Therefore, one should use force whenever the occasion for it is given to us… I confess this course is bold and dangerous, but when necessity presses, boldness is judged prudence; and spirited men never take account of the danger in great things, for those enterprises that are begun with danger always end with reward, and one never escapes a danger without danger”

With that as an introduction, here's the first easy argument. I call this the argument from morality.

1) If it were true that worldly success and ethics go hand-in-hand, then we wouldn't need morality or religion, it would simply be a matter of intelligence. If you are intelligent, you behave ethically, because you don't want to be cutting the branch of the tree that you're sitting on. We wouldn't need to teach our kids about the importance of ethics, since it would be most obvious -- it would be aligned with their existing, natural, selfish tendencies. But that's not the case is it? We need to teach our children ethics, and we need religion and laws precisely because without them a lot more people would be taking liberties that may be beneficial to them, but would be harmful for the rest of us.

Ask yourself... why do people need the threat of hell to behave? Not you, but the masses of mankind? Why not just tell them you'll be punished in this life? Why have the Eastern faiths introduced the concept of reincarnation? Why not just tell people that karma will come and bite you in the a$$ in this life?

Because we know that many times that doesn't happen, and karma never bites you in the a$$ (at least not in a worldly sense... in a spiritual sense, anything unethical that you do WILL affect you).

Now, the second argument.

2) Who are the most admired & successful people in history? The Buddhas, Jesuses, and Socrateses of the world, or the Alexanders, the Napoleons, the Tamerlanes, the Caesars? And who are the most successful of the bunch? Is it not the second group, every single time?

Aren't we human beings very twisted? We've put the biggest criminals in history into our history books. We accord them the highest respects. Their statues don the surface of the earth. Mass murderers who have killed millions of people to satisfy their desire for power. And far from considering them psychologically sick, we accord the highest praise to them. It is almost a fact that to enter the history books, you have to do something very very nasty. Because if you don't, you're not remembered. More people know today of Adolf Hitler than of Charles de Gaule. Think about that. In India they even respect Hitler. They have Hitler clothing, Hitler ice-cream, Hitler stores and so on.

On the other hand, what happened to the Buddhas, Jesuses, Socrates and our saints? We either killed them, or they lived in poverty and little renown during their lives. Only for the guilt to overwhelm us after they were dead, and for us to make them saints, as a way to wash over our sins, to make up for our crimes, to forget that it was us who ignored them or worse who persecuted and killed them.

Do you think Putin is a criminal @Kak? And do you think being a criminal is precisely what allowed him to rise to the most powerful position in Russia AND to hold it for 20+ years? Do you think by being ruthless Putin nuked his future prospects, OR do you think that he only held on to power for 20+ years PRECISELY because he was ruthless? That if he were a bit more decent, if he were less cold-blooded, he would never have reached the top and if he had, he would never have remained there for long?

The third argument.

3) Who are the most successful people in business? It is people like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Phil Knight of Nike. What did these guys do?

Steve Jobs lied to Woz about one of their first sales, and took most of the money for himself. When Woz found out 10 years later, he broke down in tears. He refused to acknowledge responsibility for his daughter and never recognized her, because she intervened between him and his ambition. He treated his suppliers and partners like crap and made sure to always twist their arms to get a good deal.

Bill Gates monopolized software, stole from Xerox, IBM and others without any qualms.

Phil Knight LIED to the Japanese at Onitsuka that he had an existing business to get them to sign him, a no-name, as a distributor of Tiger shoes. When he feared Onitsuka would turn against him, he called their representative in his office, had someone distract him, and then lunged for his bag to search through his papers and personal items to find out if his hunch was right. In other words, he did whatever it took. I don't see you @Kak lunging for someone's bag to search through their personal belongings because you fear they may replace your company. You're too decent and well-behaved to do that.

But these guys are not. These guys are willing to do WHATEVER it takes. Regardless of how morally awful it is. And these are just the things we know about. Often the things that they reminisce about, probably with some pleasure, that they are happy to share. Just imagine how many we don't know about.

Next.

4) The argument is made that being unethical destroys your reputation, and clearly your reputation impacts your success. I will argue that it is not being unethical that destroys your reputation. It is failure that destroys it. We spank the failures and ruin them, but we elevate the successes into gods.

Elizabeth Holmes's only crime, in the eyes of the world, is that in the end, her machine didn't work. Just imagine just one small difference. Somehow, or other, the machine worked. Then we would be celebrating Elizabeth. Today she would be in the top 10 richest people on the planet. Even though she clawed her way there by lying, cheating and stealing, none of it matters in the eyes of the world, because she's a success. You wouldn't even hear about that in fact.

Imagine that Elon Musk went bankrupt with Tesla and SpaceX. He would've been taken to court and hanged, the same way we have hanged Elizabeth. The only difference between him and Elizabeth is that in the end, the product worked out for him - something that he could never have known from the beginning, but he had to convince people to bet on it.

5) Your reputation is most often a function of your success. Again, all that matters is that you succeed. If you succeed, you'll have a great reputation. And if you fail, you'll have a terrible reputation. We still admire Jordan Belfort today, because he's a success. He screwed people out of millions if not billions, so what? He's paying the victims something like $4000 per year or whatever, so what? Right? That's how the world thinks. We don't care. The only real thing we care about, is is he successful?

Same for Elon Musk. If Elon Musk lost all his money tomorrow, 70%+ of his connections would no longer know him. They'd cross on the other side of the street if they saw him. They wouldn't answer his calls. This is how people are. Doesn't mean there aren't some decent people who would be loyal and still appreciate him. But not the vast majority, who are just self-interested.

6) Good people are usually NOT drawn to success and power. Because good people don't need success and power to manifest what they need. They do it through their friends. Through their network. Through their honest work. And they're happy to provide for their family, help a few other people, and live a decent life. They do not aspire to be the richest people in the world. Most often they don't, of course, there are a few exceptions.

So by and large who is drawn to success and power? Those who want to dominate others. They are most attracted to it, because without success and power, how can you dominate? They want to rise to the top. They want to become your Presidents, your CEOs, your Prime Ministers and so on.

Therefore the higher you go, the more criminals you'll meet, just because they're the only ones who want to be there. Imagine how hard it is to be President. You can't go with your woman anywhere because everyone is following you. You can't take a walk through the park. You can't take a day off. Why would you put yourself through that pain and suffering? Because you love the world? Maybe, but very unlikely. Most of the time, you do it because you want to dominate others.

7) Credibility & respectability is manufactured. A smart criminal will manufacture them in a legal way. Dr. John Brinkley was at one point the richest doctor in America. He had privates jets, huge mansions his own radio stations. You know what made him rich? Goat testicle replacement surgery. He would cut your ball sack open if you struggled to have kids, and put a goat testicle in there.

Here's what you guys think "Ohh but it doesn't work right?! Word will go out that it doesn't work!!"

And that's where you're wrong. Because a smart criminal will collect evidence that it works even if it doesn't. Because the whole process is engineered. In Dr. John's case the rumor has it that it was just cherry picking the success stories, and having the balls to operate on famous people. The successes are presented, every failure is hidden. Maybe for some of the huge successes like politicians and so on... their wives maybe got pregnant with someone else even. Doesn't matter to John, because his surgery is now a success. That's how dumb the world is. Success is all they see... like flies to shit, they to blind towards success.

That's one way. But there are other ways. Udemy collects feedback as soon as you buy a course almost. That makes no sense, you'll say... you have no way to know if it's good that early. Right. And that's the point. How do we get people great feedback? Collect it early. Almost everyone is ecstatic after a purchase and will speak about how amazed and happy they are.

A trading operation I knew about... what they did was simple. Have 10 accounts. Place 10 trades. One of them will be a winner, just show that one, and hide the rest in their marketing. Boom, you made them believe. And of course, a percentage of your clients will be mega successful millionaires... get them on a stage, get them to show their earnings, don't show the masses who failed.

Right?

I was speaking with one of these big hitters at one point, just having a conversation. And I asked him, how would you build credibility if you started from nothing? And he looked at me weirdly, and asked "Are you an altruist? Credibility is bought". This is how they think.

Another case, another business owner I know of. He had 100 clients in a new business, e-commerce. "I got us into a magazine for veterans. I'm sure we have some veterans amongst our clients, but there's no time to search for them. Let's create something representative". And lo and behold, the story got published with fake veterans.

This is the other thing you guys think... that these criminals would tell you "we're here to screw people over and take their money"... no they won't. They'll be like Elon Musk "we want to save the world!!!" That's what they'll say. And you don't need to know about the dirty stuff if you work for them. That's their business. You just do your job.

And final comment.

Joe Girard, still in the World's Guiness Book of Records as the world's best salesman. He wrote a book. It's called "How to Sell Anything to Anyone". Great book.

In that book you'll find a very interesting chapter.

It's called: "HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY"

And irony of ironies is that the chapter is actually about how to lie effectively. Of course we can't title a chapter in a book how to lie effectively. What would they say about us right?! So we title it with something that most skim-readers will agree with right?

And it starts by saying honesty is the best policy. But it's not a law. In other words, you need to know when to break it.

And Joe then tells you how if the customer asked for a Blue car, and he had no blue car, he told him he has it ready come and take it. And then he'd make something up and apologise and sell him a Black one instead once he was on the premises. Because, how big is that lie right? I mean he wants a car, and he still gets a car, does it really matter it's not blue? Most of his desire is satisfied! Very tiny lie, right?

Or if your aunt was from Missouri, then his uncle was from Missouri. If you liked fishing... he liked fishing. And he became the most successful salesman in the world.

And of course you should never lie about stuff like the engine of a car. Can't tell a customer it has 8 cylinders when it has only 4 right? Any intelligent person would figure that one out. So honesty is the best policy.

So I rest my case. The most successful and the richest people in the world are usually unethical, and even more, they MUST be unethical to rise to the very top in most cases.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Kak]

No problem @Kak, because you are my friend and I am a lover of truth, I will engage in this discussion with you. I also appreciate @MJ DeMarco 's message in the other thread and I have spoken to MJ and mentioned that I will tone down my aggressive style because, truth be told, I like you guys, and I don't want to be kicked out. Also appreciate @Antifragile 's message.

Some preliminaries:
• A true criminal and dishonest person would never discuss what I am about to discuss with you publically. Because, a true criminal knows that crimes are committed in the shadows, and never in the light. In the light it is exactly as you say @Kak in the message below. Therefore, a true criminal would be saying that you should always be honest & ethical.

• Second @biophase says that nobody here would lend me even $1,000. I certainly hope that that's not the case, because over the years I have paid you guys way more than $1,000 whether to MJ/the forum, people I've hired from here, people I've paid for their advice, etc. Perhaps more than $10,000 if we add all of it up. So if that were true, I think that wouldn't speak very good things about you.
• Third - I don't expect likes and agreement, because exactly as you say @Kak most people are too afraid to cover their behinds and reputations rather than investigate the truth, regardless of what it may cost them in terms of personal reputation. Not to mention that now the social dynamics, due to the message from MJ are entirely against me, and most people prefer to be on the side of the winners, regardless of whether they are right or not.

So @Kak here's what I will argue:


I will argue that being unethical & dishonest is more financially rewarding in the long term, and that the most successful people in the world are usually also the biggest criminals. In fact not only will I argue that, but I'll also argue that this has been the case all through human history.

What I will NOT argue is that it's preferable to be a criminal so long as you can get away with it. And the reason I won't argue that is because it presumes that the good life is a life where success is maximized regardless of the sacrifices that have to be made OR the risks that have to be assumed. That success is the only criteria by which to judge a life. And if one succeeds, then all is well. In other words, the health of your soul, sleeping well at night, doesn't matter at all. And that's not a claim I'm willing to make.

So my argument is about the facts -- criminals are the most successful people in the world. It's not about what SHOULD be the case, an idealism, but about what actually IS the case.

Now what do I mean by criminal? Someone who breaks all laws? A psychopath? Someone who has no moral values and who parks in the spot for handicapped people? Someone who screws over 80-year old grandmas?

No.

What I mean is this: someone who will do whatever it takes to succeed in the long run, even if succeeding involves hurting other people, cheating, lying, stealing or breaking other ethical norms. In other words, someone who chooses worldly success over his own soul and integrity. That person is a criminal, even if they may have committed no crimes yet.

Let me start by quoting a speech quoted by Machiavelli in Florentine Histories:


With that as an introduction, here's the first easy argument. I call this the argument from morality.

1) If it were true that worldly success and ethics go hand-in-hand, then we wouldn't need morality or religion, it would simply be a matter of intelligence. If you are intelligent, you behave ethically, because you don't want to be cutting the branch of the tree that you're sitting on. We wouldn't need to teach our kids about the importance of ethics, since it would be most obvious -- it would be aligned with their existing, natural, selfish tendencies. But that's not the case is it? We need to teach our children ethics, and we need religion and laws precisely because without them a lot more people would be taking liberties that may be beneficial to them, but would be harmful for the rest of us.

Ask yourself... why do people need the threat of hell to behave? Not you, but the masses of mankind? Why not just tell them you'll be punished in this life? Why have the Eastern faiths introduced the concept of reincarnation? Why not just tell people that karma will come and bite you in the a$$ in this life?

Because we know that many times that doesn't happen, and karma never bites you in the a$$ (at least not in a worldly sense... in a spiritual sense, anything unethical that you do WILL affect you).

Now, the second argument.

2) Who are the most admired & successful people in history? The Buddhas, Jesuses, and Socrateses of the world, or the Alexanders, the Napoleons, the Tamerlanes, the Caesars? And who are the most successful of the bunch? Is it not the second group, every single time?

Aren't we human beings very twisted? We've put the biggest criminals in history into our history books. We accord them the highest respects. Their statues don the surface of the earth. Mass murderers who have killed millions of people to satisfy their desire for power. And far from considering them psychologically sick, we accord the highest praise to them. It is almost a fact that to enter the history books, you have to do something very very nasty. Because if you don't, you're not remembered. More people know today of Adolf Hitler than of Charles de Gaule. Think about that. In India they even respect Hitler. They have Hitler clothing, Hitler ice-cream, Hitler stores and so on.

On the other hand, what happened to the Buddhas, Jesuses, Socrates and our saints? We either killed them, or they lived in poverty and little renown during their lives. Only for the guilt to overwhelm us after they were dead, and for us to make them saints, as a way to wash over our sins, to make up for our crimes, to forget that it was us who ignored them or worse who persecuted and killed them.

Do you think Putin is a criminal @Kak? And do you think being a criminal is precisely what allowed him to rise to the most powerful position in Russia AND to hold it for 20+ years? Do you think by being ruthless Putin nuked his future prospects, OR do you think that he only held on to power for 20+ years PRECISELY because he was ruthless? That if he were a bit more decent, if he were less cold-blooded, he would never have reached the top and if he had, he would never have remained there for long?

The third argument.

3) Who are the most successful people in business? It is people like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Phil Knight of Nike. What did these guys do?

Steve Jobs lied to Woz about one of their first sales, and took most of the money for himself. When Woz found out 10 years later, he broke down in tears. He refused to acknowledge responsibility for his daughter and never recognized her, because she intervened between him and his ambition. He treated his suppliers and partners like crap and made sure to always twist their arms to get a good deal.

Bill Gates monopolized software, stole from Xerox, IBM and others without any qualms.

Phil Knight LIED to the Japanese at Onitsuka that he had an existing business to get them to sign him, a no-name, as a distributor of Tiger shoes. When he feared Onitsuka would turn against him, he called their representative in his office, had someone distract him, and then lunged for his bag to search through his papers and personal items to find out if his hunch was right. In other words, he did whatever it took. I don't see you @Kak lunging for someone's bag to search through their personal belongings because you fear they may replace your company. You're too decent and well-behaved to do that.

But these guys are not. These guys are willing to do WHATEVER it takes. Regardless of how morally awful it is. And these are just the things we know about. Often the things that they reminisce about, probably with some pleasure, that they are happy to share. Just imagine how many we don't know about.

Next.

4) The argument is made that being unethical destroys your reputation, and clearly your reputation impacts your success. I will argue that it is not being unethical that destroys your reputation. It is failure that destroys it. We spank the failures and ruin them, but we elevate the successes into gods.

Elizabeth Holmes's only crime, in the eyes of the world, is that in the end, her machine didn't work. Just imagine just one small difference. Somehow, or other, the machine worked. Then we would be celebrating Elizabeth. Today she would be in the top 10 richest people on the planet. Even though she clawed her way there by lying, cheating and stealing, none of it matters in the eyes of the world, because she's a success. You wouldn't even hear about that in fact.

Imagine that Elon Musk went bankrupt with Tesla and SpaceX. He would've been taken to court and hanged, the same way we have hanged Elizabeth. The only difference between him and Elizabeth is that in the end, the product worked out for him - something that he could never have known from the beginning, but he had to convince people to bet on it.

5) Your reputation is most often a function of your success. Again, all that matters is that you succeed. If you succeed, you'll have a great reputation. And if you fail, you'll have a terrible reputation. We still admire Jordan Belfort today, because he's a success. He screwed people out of millions if not billions, so what? He's paying the victims something like $4000 per year or whatever, so what? Right? That's how the world thinks. We don't care. The only real thing we care about, is is he successful?

Same for Elon Musk. If Elon Musk lost all his money tomorrow, 70%+ of his connections would no longer know him. They'd cross on the other side of the street if they saw him. They wouldn't answer his calls. This is how people are. Doesn't mean there aren't some decent people who would be loyal and still appreciate him. But not the vast majority, who are just self-interested.

6) Good people are usually NOT drawn to success and power. Because good people don't need success and power to manifest what they need. They do it through their friends. Through their network. Through their honest work. And they're happy to provide for their family, help a few other people, and live a decent life. They do not aspire to be the richest people in the world. Most often they don't, of course, there are a few exceptions.

So by and large who is drawn to success and power? Those who want to dominate others. They are most attracted to it, because without success and power, how can you dominate? They want to rise to the top. They want to become your Presidents, your CEOs, your Prime Ministers and so on.

Therefore the higher you go, the more criminals you'll meet, just because they're the only ones who want to be there. Imagine how hard it is to be President. You can't go with your woman anywhere because everyone is following you. You can't take a walk through the park. You can't take a day off. Why would you put yourself through that pain and suffering? Because you love the world? Maybe, but very unlikely. Most of the time, you do it because you want to dominate others.

7) Credibility & respectability is manufactured. A smart criminal will manufacture them in a legal way. Dr. John Brinkley was at one point the richest doctor in America. He had privates jets, huge mansions his own radio stations. You know what made him rich? Goat testicle replacement surgery. He would cut your ball sack open if you struggled to have kids, and put a goat testicle in there.

Here's what you guys think "Ohh but it doesn't work right?! Word will go out that it doesn't work!!"

And that's where you're wrong. Because a smart criminal will collect evidence that it works even if it doesn't. Because the whole process is engineered. In Dr. John's case the rumor has it that it was just cherry picking the success stories, and having the balls to operate on famous people. The successes are presented, every failure is hidden. Maybe for some of the huge successes like politicians and so on... their wives maybe got pregnant with someone else even. Doesn't matter to John, because his surgery is now a success. That's how dumb the world is. Success is all they see... like flies to shit, they to blind towards success.

That's one way. But there are other ways. Udemy collects feedback as soon as you buy a course almost. That makes no sense, you'll say... you have no way to know if it's good that early. Right. And that's the point. How do we get people great feedback? Collect it early. Almost everyone is ecstatic after a purchase and will speak about how amazed and happy they are.

A trading operation I knew about... what they did was simple. Have 10 accounts. Place 10 trades. One of them will be a winner, just show that one, and hide the rest in their marketing. Boom, you made them believe. And of course, a percentage of your clients will be mega successful millionaires... get them on a stage, get them to show their earnings, don't show the masses who failed.

Right?

I was speaking with one of these big hitters at one point, just having a conversation. And I asked him, how would you build credibility if you started from nothing? And he looked at me weirdly, and asked "Are you an altruist? Credibility is bought". This is how they think.

Another case, another business owner I know of. He had 100 clients in a new business, e-commerce. "I got us into a magazine for veterans. I'm sure we have some veterans amongst our clients, but there's no time to search for them. Let's create something representative". And lo and behold, the story got published with fake veterans.

This is the other thing you guys think... that these criminals would tell you "we're here to screw people over and take their money"... no they won't. They'll be like Elon Musk "we want to save the world!!!" That's what they'll say. And you don't need to know about the dirty stuff if you work for them. That's their business. You just do your job.

And final comment.

Joe Girard, still in the World's Guiness Book of Records as the world's best salesman. He wrote a book. It's called "How to Sell Anything to Anyone". Great book.

In that book you'll find a very interesting chapter.

It's called: "HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY"

And irony of ironies is that the chapter is actually about how to lie effectively. Of course we can't title a chapter in a book how to lie effectively. What would they say about us right?! So we title it with something that most skim-readers will agree with right?

And it starts by saying honesty is the best policy. But it's not a law. In other words, you need to know when to break it.

And Joe then tells you how if the customer asked for a Blue car, and he had no blue car, he told him he has it ready come and take it. And then he'd make something up and apologise and sell him a Black one instead once he was on the premises. Because, how big is that lie right? I mean he wants a car, and he still gets a car, does it really matter it's not blue? Most of his desire is satisfied! Very tiny lie, right?

Or if your aunt was from Missouri, then his uncle was from Missouri. If you liked fishing... he liked fishing. And he became the most successful salesman in the world.

And of course you should never lie about stuff like the engine of a car. Can't tell a customer it has 8 cylinders when it has only 4 right? Any intelligent person would figure that one out. So honesty is the best policy.

So I rest my case. The most successful and the richest people in the world are usually unethical, and even more, they MUST be unethical to rise to the very top in most cases.

Honestly, @Black_Dragon43 good job with your counterpoint. I have some things on my plate this morning, but I’ll be back in a couple of hours to rip it up.

 

[Robdavis]

I had a read through this thread and noted that Kyle argued the following:

I am going to make the claim that honesty and man-of-your-word business practices are not only ethically superior to scorched earth, anything goes stuff… But also, eventually, more financially rewarding.

I also note that Black Dragon argued the following:

I will argue that being unethical & dishonest is more financially rewarding in the long term, and that the most successful people in the world are usually also the biggest criminals.

I also note that the two arguments are not contradictory.

Kyle had limited his argument to behaviour in business.

Black Dragon has generalised his argument to be about human civilization, ie not arguing against Kyle's point.

I'm inclined to think that both sets of arguments are basically true. That is, that if you can use power, eg. the military / police / threats of prison to extract wealth from other people then that is more effective than persuading people to part with their money by mutual exchange(business).

Being flippant I can imagine someone writing a book, in the style of MJ DeMarco titled "The Billionaire Powerlane; how to buy and control governments and tax your way to incredible wealth".

However, for most businesses, ie. those that simply can't afford to bribe government officials into giving them a monopoly or shutting down their competition, it seems to me that their most effective policy is to be as honest as possible which is Kyle's point. Any small business that engaged in criminal activity would have to be wary of a customer reporting them to the police.

It's not clear to me that there is any real debate going on here.

 

[Antifragile]

No problem @Kak, because you are my friend and I am a lover of truth, I will engage in this discussion with you. I also appreciate @MJ DeMarco 's message in the other thread and I have spoken to MJ and mentioned that I will tone down my aggressive style because, truth be told, I like you guys, and I don't want to be kicked out. Also appreciate @Antifragile 's message.

Some preliminaries:
• A true criminal and dishonest person would never discuss what I am about to discuss with you publically. Because, a true criminal knows that crimes are committed in the shadows, and never in the light. In the light it is exactly as you say @Kak in the message below. Therefore, a true criminal would be saying that you should always be honest & ethical.

That's called being a Machiavellian, not a "criminal". Criminal is simply defined by the laws of the country you are in. Say you moved your own money from China to UK - due to current CCP rules in place, you'd be criminal, a money laundering case. And defined so when caught and prosecuted. But in my books, you should have the freedom to move your assets anywhere you like!

The distinction is important. In this type of thread, if we are being honest with each other, no one is a saint. And there are plenty of "grey area" examples of behaviour that one would approve, but another wouldn't.

How do we keep this debate cleaner? More yes/no than shades of maybe?...

• Second @biophase says that nobody here would lend me even $1,000. I certainly hope that that's not the case, because over the years I have paid you guys way more than $1,000 whether to MJ/the forum, people I've hired from here, people I've paid for their advice, etc. Perhaps more than $10,000 if we add all of it up. So if that were true, I think that wouldn't speak very good things about you.

This is where we differ. The desire to help someone, or lend money is typically a function of:
a) Do I like this person enough to think about helping?
b) Will I get paid back?
c) What if I just say “no”?

Point is, whatever you paid or didn’t doesn’t matter. And a good half of the equation is about trust.

• Third - I don't expect likes and agreement, because exactly as you say @Kak most people are too afraid to cover their behinds and reputations rather than investigate the truth, regardless of what it may cost them in terms of personal reputation. Not to mention that now the social dynamics, due to the message from MJ are entirely against me, and most people prefer to be on the side of the winners, regardless of whether they are right or not.

You have a point, most people are afraid to discover something about ourselves that may not fit the “narrative”. Because now we have to deal with it, the new reality…

But your point about social dynamics, please give me (us) more credit. I’d like to think that a forum where most are seeking the “unscripted ” life are capable of more than just following “likes”. If anything, I keep coming back here mostly because I expect to hear individual views, not a herd following of the popular latest opinion.

So @Kak here's what I will argue:


I will argue that being unethical & dishonest is more financially rewarding in the long term, and that the most successful people in the world are usually also the biggest criminals. In fact not only will I argue that, but I'll also argue that this has been the case all through human history.

What I will NOT argue is that it's preferable to be a criminal so long as you can get away with it. And the reason I won't argue that is because it presumes that the good life is a life where success is maximized regardless of the sacrifices that have to be made OR the risks that have to be assumed. That success is the only criteria by which to judge a life. And if one succeeds, then all is well. In other words, the health of your soul, sleeping well at night, doesn't matter at all. And that's not a claim I'm willing to make.

Thank you for making this distinction. My post above has been mostly about this and I’m glad we are on the same page. It’s good to find some common ground.

So my argument is about the facts -- criminals are the most successful people in the world. It's not about what SHOULD be the case, an idealism, but about what actually IS the case.

Now what do I mean by criminal? Someone who breaks all laws? A psychopath? Someone who has no moral values and who parks in the spot for handicapped people? Someone who screws over 80-year old grandmas?

No.

What I mean is this: someone who will do whatever it takes to succeed in the long run, even if succeeding involves hurting other people, cheating, lying, stealing or breaking other ethical norms. In other words, someone who chooses worldly success over his own soul and integrity. That person is a criminal, even if they may have committed no crimes yet.

Actually no. A person who committed no crimes isn’t a criminal. We have no Orwellian 1984 “thought police”. Just like you fantasizing about sex with a celebrity does not make you laid.

Actions > thoughts.

Let me start by quoting a speech quoted by Machiavelli in Florentine Histories:

With that as an introduction, here's the first easy argument. I call this the argument from morality.

1) If it were true that worldly success and ethics go hand-in-hand, then we wouldn't need morality or religion, it would simply be a matter of intelligence. If you are intelligent, you behave ethically, because you don't want to be cutting the branch of the tree that you're sitting on. We wouldn't need to teach our kids about the importance of ethics, since it would be most obvious -- it would be aligned with their existing, natural, selfish tendencies. But that's not the case is it? We need to teach our children ethics, and we need religion and laws precisely because without them a lot more people would be taking liberties that may be beneficial to them, but would be harmful for the rest of us.

Ask yourself... why do people need the threat of hell to behave? Not you, but the masses of mankind? Why not just tell them you'll be punished in this life? Why have the Eastern faiths introduced the concept of reincarnation? Why not just tell people that karma will come and bite you in the a$$ in this life?

Because we know that many times that doesn't happen, and karma never bites you in the a$$ (at least not in a worldly sense... in a spiritual sense, anything unethical that you do WILL affect you).

May I suggest leaving religion out of this discussion? It’s a polarizing issue that can’t rationally be debated. Same as politics. And that’s why it’s not permitted on this forum.

I’ll say that we are debating ethics. And ethics isn’t uniform, it’s subject to interpretation. It’s a wide enough spectrum already.

With that, we have laws to regulate societal behaviour. But since not all agree on what’s OK and what’s not … laws are made. And another problem appears: political power. This topic is also too polarizing to have a discussion.

This means just ethics and business for this thread, please. We don’t teach our kids ethics because it unnatural, but because we think it’s the best way for our kids to grow and succeed in life. Kind of the point of this thread…

Now, the second argument.

2) Who are the most admired & successful people in history? The Buddhas, Jesuses, and Socrateses of the world, or the Alexanders, the Napoleons, the Tamerlanes, the Caesars? And who are the most successful of the bunch? Is it not the second group, every single time?

I’ll interpret your comment as “financially successful”. Then yes, those who led wars and won got wealth and power. Business is a bit like a war but without bullets.

Is it ethical to lie to win a negotiation? How about embellishing some truths? How about not saying something you know would give your opponent an upper hand?

The answer is: if rules of behaviour are known and accepted by both parties, it’s ethical.

Edit: boring from Charles Koch, Good Profit book

1. "“No individual could survive in a world of scarce resources without a strong measure of self-interest, one that includes at the very least his own family and close associates,” wrote noted law professor and prolific author Richard Epstein.11 “That self-interest can manifest itself in one of two ways when dealing with strangers; through either aggression or cooperation.”" (Charles G. Koch, Good Profit)

2. "MARKET-BASED MANAGEMENT GUIDING PRINCIPLES
Integrity
Conduct all affairs with integrity, for which courage is the foundation. Compliance Strive for 10,000% compliance with all laws and regulations, which requires 100% of employees fully complying 100% of the time. Stop, think, and ask. Value Creation Create long-term value by the economic means for customers, the company, and society. Apply MBM to achieve superior results by making better decisions, pursuing safety and environmental excellence, eliminating waste, optimizing, and innovating. Principled Entrepreneurship™ Apply the judgment, responsibility, initiative, economic, and critical thinking skills and sense of urgency necessary to generate the greatest contribution, consistent with the company’s risk philosophy. Customer Focus Understand and develop relationships with customers to profitably anticipate and satisfy their needs. Knowledge Seek and use the best knowledge and proactively share your knowledge while embracing a challenge process. Develop measures that lead to profitable action. Change Anticipate and embrace change. Envision what could be, challenge the status quo, and drive creative destruction through experimental discovery. Humility Exemplify humility and intellectual honesty. Constantly seek to understand and constructively deal with reality to create value and achieve personal improvement. Hold yourself and others accountable. Respect Treat others with honesty, dignity, respect, and sensitivity. Appreciate the value of diversity. Encourage and practice teamwork. Fulfillment Find fulfillment and meaning in your work by fully developing your capabilities to produce results that create the greatest value. Notes INTRODUCTION 1." (Charles G. Koch, Good Profit)

Oh man, this is a long post… I’ll hop off as I got to run, but look forward to adding more later.

Cheers!
————
Aren't we human beings very twisted? We've put the biggest criminals in history into our history books. We accord them the highest respects. Their statues don the surface of the earth. Mass murderers who have killed millions of people to satisfy their desire for power. And far from considering them psychologically sick, we accord the highest praise to them. It is almost a fact that to enter the history books, you have to do something very very nasty. Because if you don't, you're not remembered. More people know today of Adolf Hitler than of Charles de Gaule. Think about that. In India they even respect Hitler. They have Hitler clothing, Hitler ice-cream, Hitler stores and so on.

On the other hand, what happened to the Buddhas, Jesuses, Socrates and our saints? We either killed them, or they lived in poverty and little renown during their lives. Only for the guilt to overwhelm us after they were dead, and for us to make them saints, as a way to wash over our sins, to make up for our crimes, to forget that it was us who ignored them or worse who persecuted and killed them.

Do you think Putin is a criminal @Kak? And do you think being a criminal is precisely what allowed him to rise to the most powerful position in Russia AND to hold it for 20+ years? Do you think by being ruthless Putin nuked his future prospects, OR do you think that he only held on to power for 20+ years PRECISELY because he was ruthless? That if he were a bit more decent, if he were less cold-blooded, he would never have reached the top and if he had, he would never have remained there for long?

The third argument.

3) Who are the most successful people in business? It is people like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Phil Knight of Nike. What did these guys do?

Steve Jobs lied to Woz about one of their first sales, and took most of the money for himself. When Woz found out 10 years later, he broke down in tears. He refused to acknowledge responsibility for his daughter and never recognized her, because she intervened between him and his ambition. He treated his suppliers and partners like crap and made sure to always twist their arms to get a good deal.

Bill Gates monopolized software, stole from Xerox, IBM and others without any qualms.

Phil Knight LIED to the Japanese at Onitsuka that he had an existing business to get them to sign him, a no-name, as a distributor of Tiger shoes. When he feared Onitsuka would turn against him, he called their representative in his office, had someone distract him, and then lunged for his bag to search through his papers and personal items to find out if his hunch was right. In other words, he did whatever it took. I don't see you @Kak lunging for someone's bag to search through their personal belongings because you fear they may replace your company. You're too decent and well-behaved to do that.

But these guys are not. These guys are willing to do WHATEVER it takes. Regardless of how morally awful it is. And these are just the things we know about. Often the things that they reminisce about, probably with some pleasure, that they are happy to share. Just imagine how many we don't know about.

Next.

4) The argument is made that being unethical destroys your reputation, and clearly your reputation impacts your success. I will argue that it is not being unethical that destroys your reputation. It is failure that destroys it. We spank the failures and ruin them, but we elevate the successes into gods.

Elizabeth Holmes's only crime, in the eyes of the world, is that in the end, her machine didn't work. Just imagine just one small difference. Somehow, or other, the machine worked. Then we would be celebrating Elizabeth. Today she would be in the top 10 richest people on the planet. Even though she clawed her way there by lying, cheating and stealing, none of it matters in the eyes of the world, because she's a success. You wouldn't even hear about that in fact.

Imagine that Elon Musk went bankrupt with Tesla and SpaceX. He would've been taken to court and hanged, the same way we have hanged Elizabeth. The only difference between him and Elizabeth is that in the end, the product worked out for him - something that he could never have known from the beginning, but he had to convince people to bet on it.

5) Your reputation is most often a function of your success. Again, all that matters is that you succeed. If you succeed, you'll have a great reputation. And if you fail, you'll have a terrible reputation. We still admire Jordan Belfort today, because he's a success. He screwed people out of millions if not billions, so what? He's paying the victims something like $4000 per year or whatever, so what? Right? That's how the world thinks. We don't care. The only real thing we care about, is is he successful?

Same for Elon Musk. If Elon Musk lost all his money tomorrow, 70%+ of his connections would no longer know him. They'd cross on the other side of the street if they saw him. They wouldn't answer his calls. This is how people are. Doesn't mean there aren't some decent people who would be loyal and still appreciate him. But not the vast majority, who are just self-interested.

6) Good people are usually NOT drawn to success and power. Because good people don't need success and power to manifest what they need. They do it through their friends. Through their network. Through their honest work. And they're happy to provide for their family, help a few other people, and live a decent life. They do not aspire to be the richest people in the world. Most often they don't, of course, there are a few exceptions.

So by and large who is drawn to success and power? Those who want to dominate others. They are most attracted to it, because without success and power, how can you dominate? They want to rise to the top. They want to become your Presidents, your CEOs, your Prime Ministers and so on.

Therefore the higher you go, the more criminals you'll meet, just because they're the only ones who want to be there. Imagine how hard it is to be President. You can't go with your woman anywhere because everyone is following you. You can't take a walk through the park. You can't take a day off. Why would you put yourself through that pain and suffering? Because you love the world? Maybe, but very unlikely. Most of the time, you do it because you want to dominate others.

7) Credibility & respectability is manufactured. A smart criminal will manufacture them in a legal way. Dr. John Brinkley was at one point the richest doctor in America. He had privates jets, huge mansions his own radio stations. You know what made him rich? Goat testicle replacement surgery. He would cut your ball sack open if you struggled to have kids, and put a goat testicle in there.

Here's what you guys think "Ohh but it doesn't work right?! Word will go out that it doesn't work!!"

And that's where you're wrong. Because a smart criminal will collect evidence that it works even if it doesn't. Because the whole process is engineered. In Dr. John's case the rumor has it that it was just cherry picking the success stories, and having the balls to operate on famous people. The successes are presented, every failure is hidden. Maybe for some of the huge successes like politicians and so on... their wives maybe got pregnant with someone else even. Doesn't matter to John, because his surgery is now a success. That's how dumb the world is. Success is all they see... like flies to shit, they to blind towards success.

That's one way. But there are other ways. Udemy collects feedback as soon as you buy a course almost. That makes no sense, you'll say... you have no way to know if it's good that early. Right. And that's the point. How do we get people great feedback? Collect it early. Almost everyone is ecstatic after a purchase and will speak about how amazed and happy they are.

A trading operation I knew about... what they did was simple. Have 10 accounts. Place 10 trades. One of them will be a winner, just show that one, and hide the rest in their marketing. Boom, you made them believe. And of course, a percentage of your clients will be mega successful millionaires... get them on a stage, get them to show their earnings, don't show the masses who failed.

Right?

I was speaking with one of these big hitters at one point, just having a conversation. And I asked him, how would you build credibility if you started from nothing? And he looked at me weirdly, and asked "Are you an altruist? Credibility is bought". This is how they think.

Another case, another business owner I know of. He had 100 clients in a new business, e-commerce. "I got us into a magazine for veterans. I'm sure we have some veterans amongst our clients, but there's no time to search for them. Let's create something representative". And lo and behold, the story got published with fake veterans.

This is the other thing you guys think... that these criminals would tell you "we're here to screw people over and take their money"... no they won't. They'll be like Elon Musk "we want to save the world!!!" That's what they'll say. And you don't need to know about the dirty stuff if you work for them. That's their business. You just do your job.

And final comment.

Joe Girard, still in the World's Guiness Book of Records as the world's best salesman. He wrote a book. It's called "How to Sell Anything to Anyone". Great book.

In that book you'll find a very interesting chapter.

It's called: "HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY"

And irony of ironies is that the chapter is actually about how to lie effectively. Of course we can't title a chapter in a book how to lie effectively. What would they say about us right?! So we title it with something that most skim-readers will agree with right?

And it starts by saying honesty is the best policy. But it's not a law. In other words, you need to know when to break it.

And Joe then tells you how if the customer asked for a Blue car, and he had no blue car, he told him he has it ready come and take it. And then he'd make something up and apologise and sell him a Black one instead once he was on the premises. Because, how big is that lie right? I mean he wants a car, and he still gets a car, does it really matter it's not blue? Most of his desire is satisfied! Very tiny lie, right?

Or if your aunt was from Missouri, then his uncle was from Missouri. If you liked fishing... he liked fishing. And he became the most successful salesman in the world.

And of course you should never lie about stuff like the engine of a car. Can't tell a customer it has 8 cylinders when it has only 4 right? Any intelligent person would figure that one out. So honesty is the best policy.

So I rest my case. The most successful and the richest people in the world are usually unethical, and even more, they MUST be unethical to rise to the very top in most cases.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Amogh]

Here's what I'm able to understand. MJ sir's forum and books basically empower a person with a mindset and guidance to earn a living and eventually achieve financial freedom, starting from nothing.
When a person is starting out as a nobody, lying will just harm his personal branding. So definitely it seems logical to be as truthful as possible at this stage. (I'm at this stage so i know. Personally when i tell a lie it's written all over my face. Definitely there will be some hardcore liars for whom it's as easy as breathing, so ya not me)
Black Dragon sir essentially seems to be telling that if you want to reach the very top, there may be situations when you have to compromise on your ethics. Since most people probably don't/won't do that for a number of reasons, they don't have what it takes is his argument if I'm right.
Basically there are other means to the end.
But one thing I'm not able to process is this argument that they did whatever it took and that's why they reached there.
You mentioned Elizabeth Holmes (i think the Theranos lady if I'm not wrong). She probably did whatever it took too. And yet she failed. As a student of MJ, i don't find it hard to reason why it was the case. It was because she didn't deliver on what she promised.
She lied. Wouldn't have been "wrong" if she delivered on it. But wouldn't it have been simpler for her if she had just spoken the truth.
Essentially this argument is trying to open up a reader's head to people who became successful while being "not so ethical". But the point is this has always been there anyway and all of us know about it so i don't see how it's relevant to this forum in the first place. (I joined this forum to earn money as legitimately and truthfully as possible)
The argument seemed irrelevant to my life for the following reasons :
1. You said in one point that we admire Jordan Belford because he is successful. Ya maybe that was me when i was immature and hadn't read MJ's books. After watching the movie depicting his "life story", that's what i wanted from my life too. But after some thought, (and exposing myself to MJ's works) i understood maybe that isn't a smart way of doing things. The movie was entertaining ok? But in my eyes Andy Black sir is superior to that guy.
So i do feel that your observation that we only admire people based on their external achievements definitely relevant to people who go by appearances. But if i talk for myself it's only a factor.
I don't admire Elon Musk just because he's a billionaire but because of the kind of passion that he has to make the impossible possible. It's that mindset of a doer i admire and that I'm inculcating in my life as well.
2. You took examples of what Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and Phil Knight did "wrong" to reach where they did. But most of their success is attributed to what that did "right". If even one of them hadn't delivered on their promises time and time again they wouldn't have achieved what they did. So essentially their success was because of the many right things they did which you conveniently ignored to highlight what they did wrong. I feel we should just learn from what they did right and move on.
3. Good people are usually NOT drawn to success. Yes, because being good automatically gives us money to cure a family member's chronic illness.
4. You argued about how "we" boycotted people like Socrates, Jesus, Buddha - firstly these were people who were opposed by the people of their space time because their argument was against the status quo.
And we aren't following their ideals now in order to wash off our sins but rather coz it makes sense to us at this point in time. Would you consider that success? Being understood even if not immediately. I would.
5. We remember Hitler, Alexander or some thing you mentioned.
I'd like to end this post with a quote from the anime Attack on Titan.

Armin Arlert: "I Don't Like The Terms "Good Person" or "Bad Person." If my actions are in accordance with what you expect, you say I'm good and if they're not you say I'm bad."​

What I've understood is we tell people as good or bad based on our convenience.
Say some people enjoy a success that we covet, we try to find ways to tell people how the person is a bad person (I've been guilty of doing this too) when if given on a platter we will take that life without any hesitation. So most of the time, it's just us cooking up stories as feel good. Good for children but not useful once someone decides to take ownership of their life (Thank you dear MJ sir, Andy Black sir and Kak sir for inspiring me to take ownership of my life)

 

[thechosen1]

I had a read through this thread and noted that Kyle argued the following:


I also note that Black Dragon argued the following:


I also note that the two arguments are not contradictory.

Kyle had limited his argument to behaviour in business.

Black Dragon has generalised his argument to be about human civilization, ie not arguing against Kyle's point.

I'm inclined to think that both sets of arguments are basically true. That is, that if you can use power, eg. the military / police / threats of prison to extract wealth from other people then that is more effective than persuading people to part with their money by mutual exchange(business).

Being flippant I can imagine someone writing a book, in the style of MJ DeMarco titled "The Billionaire Powerlane; how to buy and control governments and tax your way to incredible wealth".

However, for most businesses, ie. those that simply can't afford to bribe government officials into giving them a monopoly or shutting down their competition, it seems to me that their most effective policy is to be as honest as possible which is Kyle's point. Any small business that engaged in criminal activity would have to be wary of a customer reporting them to the police.

It's not clear to me that there is any real debate going on here.

This post is gold. You have nailed the entire debate right here.

Kyle is right about business. This is a business forum though, and that's pretty much it.

The rest of it (the good parts of what BD is saying) can be summed up with Kyle's signature (a quote I share a lot too):

This is a George Bernard Shaw quotation: "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

All the weird little details about bribing third world despots and manipulation are unnecessary and off topic. Especially since nobody here has any firsthand knowledge of any of that stuff, afaik, just speculation, cynicism, and bitterness. This is not a forum about taking over political power through unethical means. It's a forum about business.

So yeah, achieve your goals with laser-like focus. Be a badass.

 

[Kevin88660]

No problem @Kak, because you are my friend and I am a lover of truth, I will engage in this discussion with you. I also appreciate @MJ DeMarco 's message in the other thread and I have spoken to MJ and mentioned that I will tone down my aggressive style because, truth be told, I like you guys, and I don't want to be kicked out. Also appreciate @Antifragile 's message.

Some preliminaries:
• A true criminal and dishonest person would never discuss what I am about to discuss with you publically. Because, a true criminal knows that crimes are committed in the shadows, and never in the light. In the light it is exactly as you say @Kak in the message below. Therefore, a true criminal would be saying that you should always be honest & ethical.

• Second @biophase says that nobody here would lend me even $1,000. I certainly hope that that's not the case, because over the years I have paid you guys way more than $1,000 whether to MJ/the forum, people I've hired from here, people I've paid for their advice, etc. Perhaps more than $10,000 if we add all of it up. So if that were true, I think that wouldn't speak very good things about you.
• Third - I don't expect likes and agreement, because exactly as you say @Kak most people are too afraid to cover their behinds and reputations rather than investigate the truth, regardless of what it may cost them in terms of personal reputation. Not to mention that now the social dynamics, due to the message from MJ are entirely against me, and most people prefer to be on the side of the winners, regardless of whether they are right or not.

So @Kak here's what I will argue:


I will argue that being unethical & dishonest is more financially rewarding in the long term, and that the most successful people in the world are usually also the biggest criminals. In fact not only will I argue that, but I'll also argue that this has been the case all through human history.

What I will NOT argue is that it's preferable to be a criminal so long as you can get away with it. And the reason I won't argue that is because it presumes that the good life is a life where success is maximized regardless of the sacrifices that have to be made OR the risks that have to be assumed. That success is the only criteria by which to judge a life. And if one succeeds, then all is well. In other words, the health of your soul, sleeping well at night, doesn't matter at all. And that's not a claim I'm willing to make.

So my argument is about the facts -- criminals are the most successful people in the world. It's not about what SHOULD be the case, an idealism, but about what actually IS the case.

Now what do I mean by criminal? Someone who breaks all laws? A psychopath? Someone who has no moral values and who parks in the spot for handicapped people? Someone who screws over 80-year old grandmas?

No.

What I mean is this: someone who will do whatever it takes to succeed in the long run, even if succeeding involves hurting other people, cheating, lying, stealing or breaking other ethical norms. In other words, someone who chooses worldly success over his own soul and integrity. That person is a criminal, even if they may have committed no crimes yet.

Let me start by quoting a speech quoted by Machiavelli in Florentine Histories:


With that as an introduction, here's the first easy argument. I call this the argument from morality.

1) If it were true that worldly success and ethics go hand-in-hand, then we wouldn't need morality or religion, it would simply be a matter of intelligence. If you are intelligent, you behave ethically, because you don't want to be cutting the branch of the tree that you're sitting on. We wouldn't need to teach our kids about the importance of ethics, since it would be most obvious -- it would be aligned with their existing, natural, selfish tendencies. But that's not the case is it? We need to teach our children ethics, and we need religion and laws precisely because without them a lot more people would be taking liberties that may be beneficial to them, but would be harmful for the rest of us.

Ask yourself... why do people need the threat of hell to behave? Not you, but the masses of mankind? Why not just tell them you'll be punished in this life? Why have the Eastern faiths introduced the concept of reincarnation? Why not just tell people that karma will come and bite you in the a$$ in this life?

Because we know that many times that doesn't happen, and karma never bites you in the a$$ (at least not in a worldly sense... in a spiritual sense, anything unethical that you do WILL affect you).

Now, the second argument.

2) Who are the most admired & successful people in history? The Buddhas, Jesuses, and Socrateses of the world, or the Alexanders, the Napoleons, the Tamerlanes, the Caesars? And who are the most successful of the bunch? Is it not the second group, every single time?

Aren't we human beings very twisted? We've put the biggest criminals in history into our history books. We accord them the highest respects. Their statues don the surface of the earth. Mass murderers who have killed millions of people to satisfy their desire for power. And far from considering them psychologically sick, we accord the highest praise to them. It is almost a fact that to enter the history books, you have to do something very very nasty. Because if you don't, you're not remembered. More people know today of Adolf Hitler than of Charles de Gaule. Think about that. In India they even respect Hitler. They have Hitler clothing, Hitler ice-cream, Hitler stores and so on.

On the other hand, what happened to the Buddhas, Jesuses, Socrates and our saints? We either killed them, or they lived in poverty and little renown during their lives. Only for the guilt to overwhelm us after they were dead, and for us to make them saints, as a way to wash over our sins, to make up for our crimes, to forget that it was us who ignored them or worse who persecuted and killed them.

Do you think Putin is a criminal @Kak? And do you think being a criminal is precisely what allowed him to rise to the most powerful position in Russia AND to hold it for 20+ years? Do you think by being ruthless Putin nuked his future prospects, OR do you think that he only held on to power for 20+ years PRECISELY because he was ruthless? That if he were a bit more decent, if he were less cold-blooded, he would never have reached the top and if he had, he would never have remained there for long?

The third argument.

3) Who are the most successful people in business? It is people like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Phil Knight of Nike. What did these guys do?

Steve Jobs lied to Woz about one of their first sales, and took most of the money for himself. When Woz found out 10 years later, he broke down in tears. He refused to acknowledge responsibility for his daughter and never recognized her, because she intervened between him and his ambition. He treated his suppliers and partners like crap and made sure to always twist their arms to get a good deal.

Bill Gates monopolized software, stole from Xerox, IBM and others without any qualms.

Phil Knight LIED to the Japanese at Onitsuka that he had an existing business to get them to sign him, a no-name, as a distributor of Tiger shoes. When he feared Onitsuka would turn against him, he called their representative in his office, had someone distract him, and then lunged for his bag to search through his papers and personal items to find out if his hunch was right. In other words, he did whatever it took. I don't see you @Kak lunging for someone's bag to search through their personal belongings because you fear they may replace your company. You're too decent and well-behaved to do that.

But these guys are not. These guys are willing to do WHATEVER it takes. Regardless of how morally awful it is. And these are just the things we know about. Often the things that they reminisce about, probably with some pleasure, that they are happy to share. Just imagine how many we don't know about.

Next.

4) The argument is made that being unethical destroys your reputation, and clearly your reputation impacts your success. I will argue that it is not being unethical that destroys your reputation. It is failure that destroys it. We spank the failures and ruin them, but we elevate the successes into gods.

Elizabeth Holmes's only crime, in the eyes of the world, is that in the end, her machine didn't work. Just imagine just one small difference. Somehow, or other, the machine worked. Then we would be celebrating Elizabeth. Today she would be in the top 10 richest people on the planet. Even though she clawed her way there by lying, cheating and stealing, none of it matters in the eyes of the world, because she's a success. You wouldn't even hear about that in fact.

Imagine that Elon Musk went bankrupt with Tesla and SpaceX. He would've been taken to court and hanged, the same way we have hanged Elizabeth. The only difference between him and Elizabeth is that in the end, the product worked out for him - something that he could never have known from the beginning, but he had to convince people to bet on it.

5) Your reputation is most often a function of your success. Again, all that matters is that you succeed. If you succeed, you'll have a great reputation. And if you fail, you'll have a terrible reputation. We still admire Jordan Belfort today, because he's a success. He screwed people out of millions if not billions, so what? He's paying the victims something like $4000 per year or whatever, so what? Right? That's how the world thinks. We don't care. The only real thing we care about, is is he successful?

Same for Elon Musk. If Elon Musk lost all his money tomorrow, 70%+ of his connections would no longer know him. They'd cross on the other side of the street if they saw him. They wouldn't answer his calls. This is how people are. Doesn't mean there aren't some decent people who would be loyal and still appreciate him. But not the vast majority, who are just self-interested.

6) Good people are usually NOT drawn to success and power. Because good people don't need success and power to manifest what they need. They do it through their friends. Through their network. Through their honest work. And they're happy to provide for their family, help a few other people, and live a decent life. They do not aspire to be the richest people in the world. Most often they don't, of course, there are a few exceptions.

So by and large who is drawn to success and power? Those who want to dominate others. They are most attracted to it, because without success and power, how can you dominate? They want to rise to the top. They want to become your Presidents, your CEOs, your Prime Ministers and so on.

Therefore the higher you go, the more criminals you'll meet, just because they're the only ones who want to be there. Imagine how hard it is to be President. You can't go with your woman anywhere because everyone is following you. You can't take a walk through the park. You can't take a day off. Why would you put yourself through that pain and suffering? Because you love the world? Maybe, but very unlikely. Most of the time, you do it because you want to dominate others.

7) Credibility & respectability is manufactured. A smart criminal will manufacture them in a legal way. Dr. John Brinkley was at one point the richest doctor in America. He had privates jets, huge mansions his own radio stations. You know what made him rich? Goat testicle replacement surgery. He would cut your ball sack open if you struggled to have kids, and put a goat testicle in there.

Here's what you guys think "Ohh but it doesn't work right?! Word will go out that it doesn't work!!"

And that's where you're wrong. Because a smart criminal will collect evidence that it works even if it doesn't. Because the whole process is engineered. In Dr. John's case the rumor has it that it was just cherry picking the success stories, and having the balls to operate on famous people. The successes are presented, every failure is hidden. Maybe for some of the huge successes like politicians and so on... their wives maybe got pregnant with someone else even. Doesn't matter to John, because his surgery is now a success. That's how dumb the world is. Success is all they see... like flies to shit, they to blind towards success.

That's one way. But there are other ways. Udemy collects feedback as soon as you buy a course almost. That makes no sense, you'll say... you have no way to know if it's good that early. Right. And that's the point. How do we get people great feedback? Collect it early. Almost everyone is ecstatic after a purchase and will speak about how amazed and happy they are.

A trading operation I knew about... what they did was simple. Have 10 accounts. Place 10 trades. One of them will be a winner, just show that one, and hide the rest in their marketing. Boom, you made them believe. And of course, a percentage of your clients will be mega successful millionaires... get them on a stage, get them to show their earnings, don't show the masses who failed.

Right?

I was speaking with one of these big hitters at one point, just having a conversation. And I asked him, how would you build credibility if you started from nothing? And he looked at me weirdly, and asked "Are you an altruist? Credibility is bought". This is how they think.

Another case, another business owner I know of. He had 100 clients in a new business, e-commerce. "I got us into a magazine for veterans. I'm sure we have some veterans amongst our clients, but there's no time to search for them. Let's create something representative". And lo and behold, the story got published with fake veterans.

This is the other thing you guys think... that these criminals would tell you "we're here to screw people over and take their money"... no they won't. They'll be like Elon Musk "we want to save the world!!!" That's what they'll say. And you don't need to know about the dirty stuff if you work for them. That's their business. You just do your job.

And final comment.

Joe Girard, still in the World's Guiness Book of Records as the world's best salesman. He wrote a book. It's called "How to Sell Anything to Anyone". Great book.

In that book you'll find a very interesting chapter.

It's called: "HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY"

And irony of ironies is that the chapter is actually about how to lie effectively. Of course we can't title a chapter in a book how to lie effectively. What would they say about us right?! So we title it with something that most skim-readers will agree with right?

And it starts by saying honesty is the best policy. But it's not a law. In other words, you need to know when to break it.

And Joe then tells you how if the customer asked for a Blue car, and he had no blue car, he told him he has it ready come and take it. And then he'd make something up and apologise and sell him a Black one instead once he was on the premises. Because, how big is that lie right? I mean he wants a car, and he still gets a car, does it really matter it's not blue? Most of his desire is satisfied! Very tiny lie, right?

Or if your aunt was from Missouri, then his uncle was from Missouri. If you liked fishing... he liked fishing. And he became the most successful salesman in the world.

And of course you should never lie about stuff like the engine of a car. Can't tell a customer it has 8 cylinders when it has only 4 right? Any intelligent person would figure that one out. So honesty is the best policy.

So I rest my case. The most successful and the richest people in the world are usually unethical, and even more, they MUST be unethical to rise to the very top in most cases.

I think it has to do with how you view past events and history.

Successful people often are pushed to the top by the tide of history as we need them. In other words they are able to satisfy the selfish needs of their supporters.

In other words being unethical is not the cause of their success.

Even if you look at villians like Hitler and Goebbels, people were rooting for them because they believed they are “their version” of bastards. Right after great depression the big business and industrialists are scared that the communist will rise in power. Meanwhile Nazi pivoted their strategy by promising not to nationalize all industries.

The English and Americans are rooting for Hitler to go east to attack Soviet Union and turned a blind eye towards German rearmament, until Stalin signed a deal with Hitler.

The world before 1945 was not so internationalized and globalized as today. So whenever if there is a economic depression the default option for politicians is to practice trade protectionism. The common wealth, the U.S. and the French with their colonies had large markets to fall back on when declaring tarriffs on foreign imports. This means Japan and Germany are hit hard the most in the depression.

This is the time that the two nations went towards the path of military expansion, because they were late to the party of colonisation and every pie has been divided. The only way to break this cycle is to “flip the table”.

Military expansion provided opportunity for young men to rise above the ranks. People who belong to the marginalized groups saw greatest opportunities. The German military power had its internal ranks structure where the connected prussian elites hold on to the power. That’s why the most fanaticals joined the SS and fought to the last men (also committed most atrocities) till the collapse of the Reich. It consists of average men without connection who desperately want to flip the fortune of their life through war.

When the war is over everyone just pushed the blame on Hitler and Nazi. “We were brainwashed.” was the excuse. In fact people just used “evil leaders” as an excuse to do what they always wanted to do.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[MJ DeMarco]

I appreciate that you all are trying to have a rational, reasoned discussion without all the mudslinging.

 

[BizyDad]

Especially since nobody here has any firsthand knowledge

I'm not entirely sure this is true...

---

This next comment is not directed at you or anyone I particular, but more generally, I'd appreciate people if people don't accidentally thread jack.

The thread is called Kak vs BD. Let's keep this primarily a discourse between them.

Make your points, but if you want to directly "debate" or "civilly discuss" directly with someone, I suggest perhaps engaging in your own threads.

Don't let this turn into a pile on either way.

As a pro tip...

Discuss an idea - good.
Saying I believe X - good.
Showing the point you agree with - good.
Discussing a person - less good
Saying "I have a problem with you" - not good.

And I'll repeat Kak's request to avoid emotionally charged language.

Again, not saying anyone is doing anything wrong. This has just been a friendly public discourse announcement from your neighborhood Bizydad.

Carry on.

 

[Kevin88660]

No problem @Kak, because you are my friend and I am a lover of truth, I will engage in this discussion with you. I also appreciate @MJ DeMarco 's message in the other thread and I have spoken to MJ and mentioned that I will tone down my aggressive style because, truth be told, I like you guys, and I don't want to be kicked out. Also appreciate @Antifragile 's message.

Some preliminaries:
• A true criminal and dishonest person would never discuss what I am about to discuss with you publically. Because, a true criminal knows that crimes are committed in the shadows, and never in the light. In the light it is exactly as you say @Kak in the message below. Therefore, a true criminal would be saying that you should always be honest & ethical.

• Second @biophase says that nobody here would lend me even $1,000. I certainly hope that that's not the case, because over the years I have paid you guys way more than $1,000 whether to MJ/the forum, people I've hired from here, people I've paid for their advice, etc. Perhaps more than $10,000 if we add all of it up. So if that were true, I think that wouldn't speak very good things about you.
• Third - I don't expect likes and agreement, because exactly as you say @Kak most people are too afraid to cover their behinds and reputations rather than investigate the truth, regardless of what it may cost them in terms of personal reputation. Not to mention that now the social dynamics, due to the message from MJ are entirely against me, and most people prefer to be on the side of the winners, regardless of whether they are right or not.

So @Kak here's what I will argue:


I will argue that being unethical & dishonest is more financially rewarding in the long term, and that the most successful people in the world are usually also the biggest criminals. In fact not only will I argue that, but I'll also argue that this has been the case all through human history.

What I will NOT argue is that it's preferable to be a criminal so long as you can get away with it. And the reason I won't argue that is because it presumes that the good life is a life where success is maximized regardless of the sacrifices that have to be made OR the risks that have to be assumed. That success is the only criteria by which to judge a life. And if one succeeds, then all is well. In other words, the health of your soul, sleeping well at night, doesn't matter at all. And that's not a claim I'm willing to make.

So my argument is about the facts -- criminals are the most successful people in the world. It's not about what SHOULD be the case, an idealism, but about what actually IS the case.

Now what do I mean by criminal? Someone who breaks all laws? A psychopath? Someone who has no moral values and who parks in the spot for handicapped people? Someone who screws over 80-year old grandmas?

No.

What I mean is this: someone who will do whatever it takes to succeed in the long run, even if succeeding involves hurting other people, cheating, lying, stealing or breaking other ethical norms. In other words, someone who chooses worldly success over his own soul and integrity. That person is a criminal, even if they may have committed no crimes yet.

Let me start by quoting a speech quoted by Machiavelli in Florentine Histories:


With that as an introduction, here's the first easy argument. I call this the argument from morality.

1) If it were true that worldly success and ethics go hand-in-hand, then we wouldn't need morality or religion, it would simply be a matter of intelligence. If you are intelligent, you behave ethically, because 2) Who are the most admired & successful people in history? The Buddhas, Jesuses, and Socrateses of the world, or the Alexanders, the Napoleons, the Tamerlanes, the Caesars? And who are the most successful of the bunch? Is it not the second group, every single time?

Aren't we human beings very twisted? We've put the biggest criminals in history into our history books. We accord them the highest respects. Their statues don the surface of the earth. Mass murderers who have killed millions of people to satisfy their desire for power. And far from considering them psychologically sick, we accord the highest praise to them. It is almost a fact that to enter the history books, you have to do something very very nasty. Because if you don't, you're not remembered. More people know today of Adolf Hitler than of Charles de Gaule. Think about that. In India they even respect Hitler. They have Hitler clothing, Hitler ice-cream, Hitler stores and so on.

On the other hand, what happened to the Buddhas, Jesuses, Socrates and our saints? We either killed them, or they lived in poverty and little renown during their lives. Only for the guilt to overwhelm us after they were dead, and for us to make them saints, as a way to wash over our sins, to make up for our crimes, to forget that it was us who ignored them or worse who persecuted and killed them.

Do you think Putin is a criminal @Kak? And do you think being a criminal is precisely what allowed him to rise to the most powerful position in Russia AND to hold it for 20+ years? Do you think by being ruthless Putin nuked his future prospects, OR do you think that he only held on to power for 20+ years PRECISELY because he was ruthless? That if he were a bit more decent, if he were less cold-blooded, he would never have reached the top and if he had, he would never have remained there for long?

The third argument.

3) Who are the most successful people in business? It is people like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Phil Knight of Nike. What did these guys do?

Steve Jobs lied to Woz about one of their first sales, and took most of the money for himself. When Woz found out 10 years later, he broke down in tears. He refused to acknowledge responsibility for his daughter and never recognized her, because she intervened between him and his ambition. He treated his suppliers and partners like crap and made sure to always twist their arms to get a good deal.

Bill Gates monopolized software, stole from Xerox, IBM and others without any qualms.

Phil Knight LIED to the Japanese at Onitsuka that he had an existing business to get them to sign him, a no-name, as a distributor of Tiger shoes. When he feared Onitsuka would turn against him, he called their representative in his office, had someone distract him, and then lunged for his bag to search through his papers and personal items to find out if his hunch was right. In other words, he did whatever it took. I don't see you @Kak lunging for someone's bag to search through their personal belongings because you fear they may replace your company. You're too decent and well-behaved to do that.

But these guys are not. These guys are willing to do WHATEVER it takes. Regardless of how morally awful it is. And these are just the things we know about. Often the things that they reminisce about, probably with some pleasure, that they are happy to share. Just imagine how many we don't know about.

Next.

4) The argument is made that being unethical destroys your reputation, and clearly your reputation impacts your success. I will argue that it is not being unethical that destroys your reputation. It is failure that destroys it. We spank the failures and ruin them, but we elevate the successes into gods.

Elizabeth Holmes's only crime, in the eyes of the world, is that in the end, her machine didn't work. Just imagine just one small difference. Somehow, or other, the machine worked. Then we would be celebrating Elizabeth. Today she would be in the top 10 richest people on the planet. Even though she clawed her way there by lying, cheating and stealing, none of it matters in the eyes of the world, because she's a success. You wouldn't even hear about that in fact.

Imagine that Elon Musk went bankrupt with Tesla and SpaceX. He would've been taken to court and hanged, the same way we have hanged Elizabeth. The only difference between him and Elizabeth is that in the end, the product worked out for him - something that he could never have known from the beginning, but he had to convince people to bet on it.

5) Your reputation is most often a function of your success. Again, all that matters is that you succeed. If you succeed, you'll have a great reputation. And if you fail, you'll have a terrible reputation. We still admire Jordan Belfort today, because he's a success. He screwed people out of millions if not billions, so what? He's paying the victims something like $4000 per year or whatever, so what? Right? That's how the world thinks. We don't care. The only real thing we care about, is is he successful?

Same for Elon Musk. If Elon Musk lost all his money tomorrow, 70%+ of his connections would no longer know him. They'd cross on the other side of the street if they saw him. They wouldn't answer his calls. This is how people are. Doesn't mean there aren't some decent people who would be loyal and still appreciate him. But not the vast majority, who are just self-interested.

6) Good people are usually NOT drawn to success and power. Because good people don't need success and power to manifest what they need. They do it through their friends. Through their network. Through their honest work. And they're happy to provide for their family, help a few other people, and live a decent life. They do not aspire to be the richest people in the world. Most often they don't, of course, there are a few exceptions.

So by and large who is drawn to success and power? Those who want to dominate others. They are most attracted to it, because without success and power, how can you dominate? They want to rise to the top. They want to become your Presidents, your CEOs, your Prime Ministers and so on.

Therefore the higher you go, the more criminals you'll meet, just because they're the only ones who want to be there. Imagine how hard it is to be President. You can't go with your woman anywhere because everyone is following you. You can't take a walk through the park. You can't take a day off. Why would you put yourself through that pain and suffering? Because you love the world? Maybe, but very unlikely. Most of the time, you do it because you want to dominate others.

7) Credibility & respectability is manufactured. A smart criminal will manufacture them in a legal way. Dr. John Brinkley was at one point the richest doctor in America. He had privates jets, huge mansions his own radio stations. You know what made him rich? Goat testicle replacement surgery. He would cut your ball sack open if you struggled to have kids, and put a goat testicle in there.

Here's what you guys think "Ohh but it doesn't work right?! Word will go out that it doesn't work!!"

And that's where you're wrong. Because a smart criminal will collect evidence that it works even if it doesn't. Because the whole process is engineered. In Dr. John's case the rumor has it that it was just cherry picking the success stories, and having the balls to operate on famous people. The successes are presented, every failure is hidden. Maybe for some of the huge successes like politicians and so on... their wives maybe got pregnant with someone else even. Doesn't matter to John, because his surgery is now a success. That's how dumb the world is. Success is all they see... like flies to shit, they to blind towards success.

That's one way. But there are other ways. Udemy collects feedback as soon as you buy a course almost. That makes no sense, you'll say... you have no way to know if it's good that early. Right. And that's the point. How do we get people great feedback? Collect it early. Almost everyone is ecstatic after a purchase and will speak about how amazed and happy they are.

A trading operation I knew about... what they did was simple. Have 10 accounts. Place 10 trades. One of them will be a winner, just show that one, and hide the rest in their marketing. Boom, you made them believe. And of course, a percentage of your clients will be mega successful millionaires... get them on a stage, get them to show their earnings, don't show the masses who failed.

Right?

I was speaking with one of these big hitters at one point, just having a conversation. And I asked him, how would you build credibility if you started from nothing? And he looked at me weirdly, and asked "Are you an altruist? Credibility is bought". This is how they think.

Another case, another business owner I know of. He had 100 clients in a new business, e-commerce. "I got us into a magazine for veterans. I'm sure we have some veterans amongst our clients, but there's no time to search for them. Let's create something representative". And lo and behold, the story got published with fake veterans.

This is the other thing you guys think... that these criminals would tell you "we're here to screw people over and take their money"... no they won't. They'll be like Elon Musk "we want to save the world!!!" That's what they'll say. And you don't need to know about the dirty stuff if you work for them. That's their business. You just do your job.

And final comment.

Joe Girard, still in the World's Guiness Book of Records as the world's best salesman. He wrote a book. It's called "How to Sell Anything to Anyone". Great book.

In that book you'll find a very interesting chapter.

It's called: "HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY"

And irony of ironies is that the chapter is actually about how to lie effectively. Of course we can't title a chapter in a book how to lie effectively. What would they say about us right?! So we title it with something that most skim-readers will agree with right?

And it starts by saying honesty is the best policy. But it's not a law. In other words, you need to know when to break it.

And Joe then tells you how if the customer asked for a Blue car, and he had no blue car, he told him he has it ready come and take it. And then he'd make something up and apologise and sell him a Black one instead once he was on the premises. Because, how big is that lie right? I mean he wants a car, and he still gets a car, does it really matter it's not blue? Most of his desire is satisfied! Very tiny lie, right?

Or if your aunt was from Missouri, then his uncle was from Missouri. If you liked fishing... he liked fishing. And he became the most successful salesman in the world.

And of course you should never lie about stuff like the engine of a car. Can't tell a customer it has 8 cylinders when it has only 4 right? Any intelligent person would figure that one out. So honesty is the best policy.

So I rest my case. The most successful and the richest people in the world are usually unethical, and even more, they MUST be unethical to rise to the very top in most cases.

This post is gold. You have nailed the entire debate right here.

Kyle is right about business. This is a business forum though, and that's pretty much it.

The rest of it (the good parts of what BD is saying) can be summed up with Kyle's signature (a quote I share a lot too):

This is a George Bernard Shaw quotation: "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

All the weird little details about bribing third world despots and manipulation are unnecessary and off topic. Especially since nobody here has any firsthand knowledge of any of that stuff, afaik, just speculation, cynicism, and bitterness. This is not a forum about taking over political power through unethical means. It's a forum about business.

So yeah, achieve your goals with laser-like focus. Be a badass.

There are actually similarities between business and life outside business. And it could be used to show that some of Black dragons thinking is based on a flawed view of history.

Black Dragon said that people worshipped “historical leaders” more than Jesus. Absolutely this is not the case. The Vatican city has more than a Billion devout followers. Napoleon? No one outside France cared except military history fans.

It is also not about just being good or bad but being valuable and useful. Jesus didn’t have a large follower-ship until a few hundred years later when Christianity has made major pivots that deviated against early teaching. You are not required to be a jew and don’t have to follow many of the dogmatic laws of the old testament. The Roman emperor also saw that an inclusive monthesitic religion is a good tool to bond an empire (people of different ethnicities who speak different tones together). It took Christianity a few hundred years to find the right tweaks to gain “viral growth”.

It is just like business. The first MVP does not always succeed. It takes in this case generations of fine tuning and with some luck it expands like a wild fire.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[S.Y.]

This would be a lot more valuable if we let @Black_Dragon43 and @Kak debate, one on one.

Other people's opinions, although valuable in general, are taking away from their debate on ethics at this stage. It can become one of those meetings where too many people have a say on a subject, taking away from what could have been valuable time for exchange.

 

[Prdgy]

This would be a lot more valuable if we let @Black_Dragon43 and @Kak debate, one on one.

Doesn't @Kak have a podcast? It would be really cool to see them debate this on it, points would be way easier to understand between all of the noise of the thread.