There is a difference between saying something and doing it.
This, I think, is where most of the kickback to the Machiavellian thing is originating.
You don't have to go far into Freud's work to see that civility is mostly a veneer and that, under the surface, we are animals seeking to hunt and kill other (weaker?) animals.
However, a key thing that separates humanity is the ability to conceptualize right and wrong.
How one defines something as such seems to be the core point of discussion of this thread.
A lot of what @Black_Dragon43 is postulating is to become more like Frodo. Frodo was a chimp that ate a human baby, killed a significant quantity of the local primate population, fornicated with his own mother and bullied the other apes.
Surely if the "do anything to become successful" idea is valid, it would mean killing children is not off the table? It's okay because they're not strong enough to survive on their own and are, thus, expendable.
In the animal kingdom, that passes because animals are operating in line with their survival instincts. They do this because they have no other choice. We do. Humanity has built a civilization, the result of which we all benefit from on a daily basis. Sure, some are in the US and have their opportunities. I am in the UK and have mine.
One of the beautiful things about being alive is we - collectively - have a responsibility to maintain that civilization... and contribute to make it better.
Americans have known this from the start and their culture is typically held in regard due to the way in which they've positioned themselves as the arbiters of civility. Before that, Britain and France were the arbiters.
I think a healthy amount of "ruthlessness" is needed to get what you want out of life, but to engage in it as a sport is not conducive to a prosperous society. America works because it is abundant. It is abundant because it instilled a sense of purpose, drive and responsibility into its citizens. The UK has that too, albeit less so.
Ultimately, if you're advocating lying, tricking and conniving your way to success, you will not succeed in a major way. In small ways, yes, you'll make some progress but will eventually come unstuck and have problems.
The reason is you're missing the one thing that determines success in the first place - excellence. Excellence is what pushes society forward and births great empires. The Greeks had a name for it - Arete.
As humans, we have a responsibility to attain this. Attempting to negate it by stealing from others (which is what lying comes down to), is what causes retardation in the system. It's why some people are revered and most are not.
Being ruthless whilst being excellent is necessary (and lauded in many circles). Being ruthless without being excellent means you're taking from others, meaning you'll eventually run out of things to take.
I was going to write more but refrained as to not derail the thread.
I think it's a healthy topic and props to both @Kak and @Black_Dragon43 for entertaining it. Thanks, as ever, to @MJ DeMarco for hosting the forum and helping the community grow through positive action.
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