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The Ukraine War, implications, outcome?

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Andreas Thiel

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I don't know who to believe.

Do I believe Putin when he says that he just wants to make Ukraine a buffer zone and leave the rest alone? Or do I believe the other side's propaganda, that says Putin wants to rebuild the Soviet empire and storm into Romania, Poland, Lithuania, and the Czech Republic?

My gut tells me the former.
...
This is just the way they frame this.

Russia wants a multipolar world order where the US cannot dictate the terms of deals or else ... but has to negotiate to get things.
All of this is primarily about the economy, less about territory. The west frames this as "a maniac wants the Cold War times back".
But while Putin is not that kind of maniac, at the same time Russia will take this further (economically speaking) and make sure that the global dominance of the US has an end.
On the way there anything war related is in the cards, but not in the "conquer the world" sense, but as a means to an end.

I personally have not read it, but from what I have heard if you read Brzezinski's "The Grand Chessboard" you can see past the emotional spins that both sides add to the narrative right now.

I think even back then it was suggested (by think tanks) that the Ukraine is a perfect candidate to force Russia's hand.
 
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Xeon

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Just saw the latest Zelensky speech video on Reddit.

1) He says Moscow wants to negotiate on Ukraine's neutral status

2) He wants Ukraine to join NATO -_-
 

loop101

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Comical.

I don't buy it, call me crazy.
When we see footage of both sides and bullets flying while people all over social media are being seen driving out the cities with mattresses tied to the roof of their cars Im calling B.S.

This is 2022, not 1982. Can't trust anything at face value anymore.
I don't understand your point. My point is that America would be better off getting out of debt, instead of incurring more debt, but we seemed destined to financially self-destruct.
 

Black_Dragon43

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It’s sad to see so many here falling for Russian propaganda…

Russia is the enemy of the West and our values - freedom, democracy, rule of law and free market capitalism. There is no if or but here.

Russian aggression in Ukraine is not justified and Russia has no reasonable grievances to speak of. They have been trying to provoke the Ukranians for months now into conflict. Putin has lied repeatedly, just a few days ago he has said he has no plans to invade Ukraine and now lo and behold, a well-planned campaign is under way.

I hate to break it to some of you, but there is good and evil in the world. It’s not all a grey, complex mess as some of you like to think it is. It is precisely this “widsom” of seeing everything in grey and being unable to see white and black that has crippled us - we are no longer able to differentiate good from evil.

Putin is a dictator and a killer - someone who has personally ordered the MURDER of his opposition in brutal ways, including through radioactive poisoning ON FOREIGN TERRITORY. If you think he has any “principles” or that you can trust his word or negotiate with him, you still don’t understand who you’re dealing with. Putin does not negotiate.

For those who think Ukraine or the International Community should give in to Russia’s demands to avoid war, this is a big error. First of all, Russia knows that if Ukraine does not enter NATO, then it will be colonised - by Russia. Sooner or later, Russia will get a puppet government in there… by force, by election, by hook or crook, it doesn’t matter. Ukraine will become like Belarus today.

Zelensky knows that the only hope his country has is to enter NATO - then Russia cannot interfere as easily. Not that they won’t… they’ll simply say that they don’t consider Ukraine joininig is valid… just like how they recognize two independent countries within Ukraine’s borders despite what the rest of the International Community says.

Without entering NATO, there will be NO UKRAINE. Now, Putin has no right to demand control over another nation’s destiny. And such demand is so absurd, that it should not be tolerated or even considered. It doesn’t matter what Ukraine’s history was - point is Ukraine is now an independent country and has to be respected as such. Putin’s demands are a blatant infringement of international laws. In my opinion, the international community should put a blockade on Russia’s oil, close down Russia’s access to international waters, and demand that Putin stop the invasion and guarantee that he will not continue Russian expansion beyond territories he has already gained in Georgia, Belarus and parts of Ukraine. And NO GUARANTEE that Ukraine will not join NATO - they’re a free country and he needs to respect that.

50% of Russia’s income comes from oil and gas. Just turn it off. Pay double the price, buy it from the Americans (as Trump wanted), until Putin gives in.
 
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David Fitz

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It’s sad to see so many here falling for Russian propaganda…

Russia is the enemy of the West and our values - freedom, democracy, rule of law and free market capitalism. There is no if or but here.

Russian aggression in Ukraine is not justified and Russia has no reasonable grievances to speak of. They have been trying to provoke the Ukranians for months now into conflict. Putin has lied repeatedly, just a few days ago he has said he has no plans to invade Ukraine and now lo and behold, a well-planned campaign is under way.

I hate to break it to some of you, but there is good and evil in the world. It’s not all a grey, complex mess as some of you like to think it is. It is precisely this “widsom” of seeing everything in grey and being unable to see white and black that has crippled us - we are no longer able to differentiate good from evil.

Putin is a dictator and a killer - someone who has personally ordered the MURDER of his opposition in brutal ways, including through radioactive poisoning ON FOREIGN TERRITORY. If you think he has any “principles” or that you can trust his word or negotiate with him, you still don’t understand who you’re dealing with. Putin does not negotiate.

For those who think Ukraine or the International Community should give in to Russia’s demands to avoid war, this is a big error. First of all, Russia knows that if Ukraine does not enter NATO, then it will be colonised - by Russia. Sooner or later, Russia will get a puppet government in there… by force, by election, by hook or crook, it doesn’t matter. Ukraine will become like Belarus today.

Zelensky knows that the only hope his country has is to enter NATO - then Russia cannot interfere as easily. Not that they won’t… they’ll simply say that they don’t consider Ukraine joininig is valid… just like how they recognize two independent countries within Ukraine’s borders despite what the rest of the International Community says.

Without entering NATO, there will be NO UKRAINE. Now, Putin has no right to demand control over another nation’s destiny. And such demand is so absurd, that it should not be tolerated or even considered. It doesn’t matter what Ukraine’s history was - point is Ukraine is now an independent country and has to be respected as such. Putin’s demands are a blatant infringement of international laws. In my opinion, the international community should put a blockade on Russia’s oil, close down Russia’s access to international waters, and demand that Putin stop the invasion and guarantee that he will not continue Russian expansion beyond territories he has already gained in Georgia, Belarus and parts of Ukraine. And NO GUARANTEE that Ukraine will not join NATO - they’re a free country and he needs to respect that.

50% of Russia’s income comes from oil and gas. Just turn it off. Pay double the price, buy it from the Americans (as Trump wanted), until Putin gives in.

I've read that the Ukraine leader closed newspapers who were talking about him and locked up his competitors and who knows, maybe he killed a few people himself. Everyone's saying we are fighting democracy but Ukraine doesn't sound much like a democracy if that is true.

Imagine Biden locking up Trump and shutting down Fox News because they were on the right.
 

Hadrian

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Nobody would or should support suppressing the Press. But its definitely depressing to see people here trying to rationalise the insane ambitions of a Fascist dictator. Putin has always in ALL his writings from his earliest days in power wrote about taking back Ukraine as it was the jewel in the crown of the Russian Empire.

Ukraine knew from day one of independence the precarious position they were in so they did EVERYTHING in their power to keep Russia happy. They even wrote it into law that they wouldn't join Nato.

The rational response from Russia would have been to help Ukraine reach peace and prosperity and develop the best relations possible but fascist dictators are NOT rational actors. Instead Russia began underminig Ukraine in every way pushing the Ukranians towards Nato and the West.

No one in their right mind would like to see any country end up like Belarus, a grotesque fascist puppet state under Putins direct control.

And as for Trump I don't think the American public know just how close they came to a a coup d'état. BBC Radio 4 - The Coming Storm - Downloads

Trump Putin.jpg
 
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Raoul Duke

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What? Ok, you're crazy.

Apparently someone is trying to give Black_Dragon competition for the forum's 2022 Rivoli Of The Year award...

EFKtX1i.png
 
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Black_Dragon43

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The problem here is that you guys in the West think that Putin is like you. You think Putin is a goodie goodie and just wants to be happy, and his country prosperous. You think that at heart he is good.

And many people think that because that's how you're trained in the West. "We all want to be happy", "men are fundamentally good", "don't think in black and white", "look at things from the other guy's POV" etc. etc.

The trouble is that those assumptions are wrong. Not everyone wants to be happy. Not everyone is fundamentally good. Not everyone cares for your well being.

In Communist times, the secret service forces would ENJOY torturing people. They would enjoy raping your wife in front of you. They would enjoy killing your sons and daughters in front of you. They wouldn't do it just out of duty... no, they would actively enjoy it.

That is unimaginable to most of you, I'm sure. Because you've been trained in relativism for many years. And relativism tells you, let's all be happy, there is no good and evil, good and evil are solely in your mind. Hippies.

"His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it." -- A Psychological Analysis of Adolph Hitler: His Life and Legend

Putin isn't stupid. He knows very well what he is doing. Some of you think that Putin really believes that Ukraine is Russian territory, and there is a genocide going on in there and he's actually protecting those people. That's wrong. Putin doesn't care about anyone's well being but his own.

Putin knows very well that what he's saying is just a pretext to justify his actions. He doesn't believe the pretext, but he wants you to believe it.

Deception is at the heart of war, as Sun Tzu would say. War isn't about being a goodie goodie... it's about achieving your objectives regardless of what's involved.
 

DWX

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My worry is that, depending on how the West handle the conflict, China may grow emboldened with Taiwan.

Then the West is in real trouble.
 
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MitchC

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The problem here is that you guys in the West think that Putin is like you. You think Putin is a goodie goodie and just wants to be happy, and his country prosperous. You think that at heart he is good.

And many people think that because that's how you're trained in the West. "We all want to be happy", "men are fundamentally good", "don't think in black and white", "look at things from the other guy's POV" etc. etc.

The trouble is that those assumptions are wrong. Not everyone wants to be happy. Not everyone is fundamentally good. Not everyone cares for your well being.

In Communist times, the secret service forces would ENJOY torturing people. They would enjoy raping your wife in front of you. They would enjoy killing your sons and daughters in front of you. They wouldn't do it just out of duty... no, they would actively enjoy it.

That is unimaginable to most of you, I'm sure. Because you've been trained in relativism for many years. And relativism tells you, let's all be happy, there is no good and evil, good and evil are solely in your mind. Hippies.

"His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it." -- A Psychological Analysis of Adolph Hitler: His Life and Legend

Deception is at the heart of war, as Sun Tzu would say. War isn't about being a goodie goodie... it's about achieving your objectives regardless of what's involved.

Do people really think the us isn’t controlled by evil people? Do people really think you live in a democracy? You have 2 parties and even with only 2 parties they still very likely rigged your last election. Not only did they rig it but they put the most inept puppet in that they could. They could have probably legitimately won the election if they chose a decent candidate but they don’t want that because they can’t control it, they want a demented puppet.

I've read that the Ukraine leader closed newspapers who were talking about him and locked up his competitors and who knows, maybe he killed a few people himself. Everyone's saying we are fighting democracy but Ukraine doesn't sound much like a democracy if that is true.

Imagine Biden locking up Trump and shutting down Fox News because they were on the right.

Also all of your media and social media is censored and controlled. People are killed all the time who speak out against the narrative.

I’m not saying Putin is good but F*ck man have a look around do you really think whoever is controlling the west is any better?

They are freezing peoples bank accounts in Canada for simply donating to protests.

Putin isn't stupid. He knows very well what he is doing. Some of you think that Putin really believes that Ukraine is Russian territory, and there is a genocide going on in there and he's actually protecting those people. That's wrong. Putin doesn't care about anyone's well being but his own.

Putin knows very well that what he's saying is just a pretext to justify his actions. He doesn't believe the pretext, but he wants you to believe it.

USA invaded Iraq for no reason, they said there was wmds and there wasn’t any and no one cares. How is that any better? I’m not old enough to know what usa excuse for being in Vietnam was but I’ve been there and seen people in the street with deformities from the agent orange they sprayed while over there. That’s as evil as it gets.

I’m not saying Russia is good or Ukraine is good, I don’t know anything about them, what I do know is that the last thing we need is to get involved in this shit. Are you really going to fight and risk your life so you can go home and have Trudeau, or Biden, or scomo, or Boris Johnson, or Jacinta tell you how to live your life.
 
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Xeon

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Do people really think the us isn’t controlled by evil people? Do people really think you live in a democracy? You have 2 parties and even with only 2 parties they still very likely rigged your last election. Not only did they rig it but they put the most inept puppet in that they could. They could have probably legitimately won the election if they chose a decent candidate but they don’t want that because they can’t control it, they want a demented puppet.



Also all of your media and social media is censored and controlled. People are killed all the time who speak out against the narrative.

I’m not saying Putin is good but f*ck man have a look around do you really think whoever is controlling the west is any better?





USA invaded Iraq for no reason, they said there was wmds and there wasn’t any and no one cares. How is that any better? I’m not old enough to know what usa excuse for being in Vietnam was but I’ve been there and seen people in the street with deformities from the agent orange they sprayed while over there. That’s as evil as it gets.

"America good. America hero. Russia bad. China bad. Iran bad. Aliens come. American heroes save the world. American color revolutions in sovereign countries good. America bombed and invaded 70+ countries good. America the beautiful."
 

MitchC

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"America good. America hero. Russia bad. China bad. Iran bad. Aliens come. American heroes save the world. American color revolutions in sovereign countries good. America bombed and invaded 70+ countries good. America the beautiful."
I just can’t believe I read someone saying that usa should have bombed Moscow straight away and then 5 minutes later read him say that he can’t believe we are falling for putins propaganda, followed by a perfect description of how America has started every single one of its wars but in the context of what Russia is doing.
 
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Guest-5ty5s4

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Trump, Biden, Obama, or any politician is not your friend. They are there for their own self interest or agenda. Stop defending Trump or any other politician. They are all sh*t heads.

I find it crazy that people are willing to fight physically or verbally with other people for a politician(or anyone) that doesn’t even know your name.

Leave that sh*t to the sheep my man. I know your smarter than that.
I actually agree with you ....... don’t know how many times I have to say I didn’t pick him, think he’s not the best, etc. just would be better for a war than the current guy. It doesn’t really matter what you think about what I think. I don’t really care if you think I’m smart.
 
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Xeon

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I just can’t believe I read someone saying that usa should have bombed Moscow straight away and then 5 minutes later read him say that he can’t believe we are falling for putins propaganda, followed by a perfect description of how America has started every single one of its wars but in the context of what Russia is doing.


I always knew the US military is the most powerful in the world (at least for the near future), but one thing I learned these few weeks, is that the American media is far more powerful than I thought. The major news outlets, CNN, Fox, Bloomberg, CNBC the whole lot....they are influencing not just the US but literally the whole world. It's always the same one sided tune over and over. So, it's not surprising people are echoing the same story over and over. "Wars in the name of democracy".
 

mr4ffe

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Thought experiment: You govern a smaller nation bordering the largest, and one of the most powerful countries in the world. Suddenly (well, really not so suddenly), said country attacks. What do you do?
  1. Engage, and force all capable (male) citizens to defend (offer their lives for) your nation (possibly with foreign reinforcements, such as NATO/OTAN, or UN).
  2. Engage, and let people (your own army, NATO/OTAN, UN, etc.) voluntarily defend your nation.
  3. Reluctantly give up, as you would rather have your people live under a crappy regime than waste their lives dying in a war they might not win.
  4. Happily give up, as you've secretly wanted your nation to be absorbed by the attacking country.
Now, think about which choice you'd want your leaders to make if you were a capable young male in that same nation! Did you change your answer?

I would personally never sacrifice my life as a pawn for old money families to fight their dirty wars. I'm no sell-out, but to each their own. Thus, I think waving the white flag is the least prideful, but most rational, choice the Ukrainian leaders could make right now if they care about the lives of their own population. I may lack some information, though. Perhaps the Ukrainian army is unexpectedly capable, and will be reinforced by others to the point where they'll successfully defend their nation from invasion?
 
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Black_Dragon43

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Do people really think the us isn’t controlled by evil people?
No, but I'd rather have those evil people ruling over us than Putin or Xi.

There's a vast difference between the two. Sure, Western leaders are also selfish and self-centered... They're also power-hungry and corrupt. But they have some boundaries... a modicum of respect for the rule of law, freedom, democracy.

Such respect is ABSENT in China and Russia. If what happened to Nixon for example were to happen to Putin, do you think Putin would leave office? Do you think Xi would leave office? Of course not. They would NEVER willingly surrender power, because they have no sense of right and wrong beyond what is good and bad for them personally.
 

TonyStark

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Well, you have:

- A president who can't string a sentence together
- A prime minister who needs to evoke emergency wartime laws to deal with a little protest
- A Europe that locked itself down to an insane level for two years and mostly cares about climate control

These are not strong, inspiring, intimidating leaders.

Russia and China are playing for keeps.
They can't be cancelled or shamed - you keep them in check with pure strength. Or you don't.

They spotted an opportunity and they took it.
I'm definitely not saying it's right, just that who was there to stop it?

Meanwhile, we are sitting around wondering if a dude can compete in a woman's swimming competition.

View attachment 42286
Biden has a speech impediment lol
And yeah shame on Europe for trying to prevent a global pandemic of an infectious disease lmao
 

TonyStark

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Shit, with this attitude, I wouldn't even want you in charge of a boy scout troop, let alone the US military.
Unfortunately this is how a majority of Americans think right now lol keyboard warriors that won’t join the military
 
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Guest-5ty5s4

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The real friend of Putin is the guy who makes sure we are dependent on him for oil.

What a total bro move, shutting down your own operations to make sure your buddy gets all of your oil business. Really cool in light of this crazy invasion, great job guys.

1645757891189


All the whiners are just ignoring this one.

@BizyDad
 
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TonyStark

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I've read that the Ukraine leader closed newspapers who were talking about him and locked up his competitors and who knows, maybe he killed a few people himself. Everyone's saying we are fighting democracy but Ukraine doesn't sound much like a democracy if that is true.

Imagine Biden locking up Trump and shutting down Fox News because they were on the right.
You’ve read propaganda lol
 
G

Guest-5ty5s4

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Imagine Biden locking up Trump and shutting down Fox News because they were on the right.
Would be very bad. Would be equally bad if Trump shut down CNN and put Biden in jail solely for competing with him.

I will get hate for this again, but would like to remind everyone of how Trump was effectively deleted from every social media platform while still an elected president, and the news also stopped airing anything he would say towards the end of his term.

I say that not to endorse Trump, but to all my fellow Americans who think these crazy things can't happen in America. They can. You are wrong. (not you David)

America is already extremely corrupt. The media is extremely biased. The social media companies work with the people at the highest level of government to censor and control narratives. There are people who have been in the Federal government for decades who are never elected or voted on. (Administrative agencies, AKA "alphabet agencies," are not part of the Constitutional government but are writing laws and doing all sorts of things without accountability)

It. Is. Not. Good.

---

These things could happen here. Our country is not immune to what is happening in Ukraine.
 
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BizyDad

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Do I believe Putin when he says that he just wants to make Ukraine a buffer zone and leave the rest alone?
If you don't want to believe words, believe actions.

There are still Russian troops in Crimea. They are Russian troops in Belarus. Do you really see the Russian troops leaving Ukraine? I don't. Maybe I'm proven wrong. Time will tell.

I do agree he isn't storming into five nations overnight. But I don't see how you can take him at his word.

Imagine Biden locking up Trump and shutting down Fox News because they were on the right.
Yeah, imagine Trump locking up Hillary and trying to shut down the New York times.

I think your point is supposed to sound far-fetched to an American ear. But these kind of parallels in tactics is why I always suspected Trump was guilty of collusion with Russia.

More importantly, because of the love of Trumpism tactics, there's a segment of Russian sympathy in this country.

I will get hate for this again, but would like to remind everyone of how Trump was effectively deleted from every social media platform while still an elected president, and the news also stopped airing anything he would say towards the end of his term.

And then you got this guy acting like he doesn't believe in politicians, and he's not even a fan of Trump.

But he'll tell you you know what this situation needs, more Trump.

Poor Trump. Trump Trump Trump.

Like everything Trump said was gospel truth, as opposed to whopping falsehoods, and people were wrong to try and stop him spreading lies.

But he's not a fan of Trump so don't send hate his way. Everyone else is blaming Trump in this thread. Not him. He doesn't understand why he keeps having to bring up Trump.

Trump 2022.

The doublespeak is strong.

Nobody would or should support suppressing the Press.

Do you not read the comments in this very forum? Sure, they don't say the press, they complain about the media. But it's the same thing, or at least on the same spectrum.

When you have a country whose value of the press is so strong, the first thing you have to do is weaken its credibility. Then you can ignore it. Then you can suppress it.

Every successful president needs an enemy. Trump chose the media as his.

What does that tell you?

I just can’t believe I read someone saying that usa should have bombed Moscow straight away and then 5 minutes later read him say that he can’t believe we are falling for putins propaganda, followed by a perfect description of how America has started every single one of its wars but in the context of what Russia is doing.

And I can't believe that person isn't an American. I'm also surprised not a single American is saying these things with him.

That's how much political thought in my country has changed in roughly 20 years.

And for the record, not every single war. That's not how we got into WWI, WWII, or 9/11.

Another difference is that we don't annex anybody anymore.

Plus we have repeatedly reinvested and at least attempted, to build up places that we went to war in. Often with great success. And to our own detriment.

But let's not give America any credit for anything. Just sell the narrative that Russia and America are just as bad.

America supported revolution to oust an unpopular but duly elected President who wanted closer Russian ties against his citizens protests.

That's not democratic.

Russia rolls in tanks and their own troops and bombs the place.

That's not democratic.

Totally the same thing.

You know, we have drug cartels literally taking over whole towns within 20 miles from our border. They are killing all the journalists. And what is the US response? Are we massing tanks to get rid of this obvious threat to our security? Are we using this as a pretense for invasion?

Stop trying to equate Russia's actions with the United States actions. There is a world of difference.

The media is extremely biased.

The media has been extremely biased ever since Benjamin Franklin used every one of the newspapers he owned to convince Americans they needed firefighters and wouldn't let Tories print editorials. So what's your point?
 

Kevin88660

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The problem here is that you guys in the West think that Putin is like you. You think Putin is a goodie goodie and just wants to be happy, and his country prosperous. You think that at heart he is good.

And many people think that because that's how you're trained in the West. "We all want to be happy", "men are fundamentally good", "don't think in black and white", "look at things from the other guy's POV" etc. etc.

The trouble is that those assumptions are wrong. Not everyone wants to be happy. Not everyone is fundamentally good. Not everyone cares for your well being.

In Communist times, the secret service forces would ENJOY torturing people. They would enjoy raping your wife in front of you. They would enjoy killing your sons and daughters in front of you. They wouldn't do it just out of duty... no, they would actively enjoy it.

That is unimaginable to most of you, I'm sure. Because you've been trained in relativism for many years. And relativism tells you, let's all be happy, there is no good and evil, good and evil are solely in your mind. Hippies.

"His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it." -- A Psychological Analysis of Adolph Hitler: His Life and Legend

Putin isn't stupid. He knows very well what he is doing. Some of you think that Putin really believes that Ukraine is Russian territory, and there is a genocide going on in there and he's actually protecting those people. That's wrong. Putin doesn't care about anyone's well being but his own.

Putin knows very well that what he's saying is just a pretext to justify his actions. He doesn't believe the pretext, but he wants you to believe it.

Deception is at the heart of war, as Sun Tzu would say. War isn't about being a goodie goodie... it's about achieving your objectives regardless of what's involved.
The public opinion in the U.S. is that they are not going to bleed for oversea conflicts anymore. The decision is already made and whatever the moral rhetoric is just a justification. Remember the war drum about Iran back in 2011-2014.. less than 5 percent supports it. We never talk about it anymore.

Ukraine is just not worth the hassle of getting involved in a nuclear war. Trillions of dollar will evaporate in the global stock market if Biden send soldiers in U.S. army uniforms to fight in Ukraine.

U.S. thrives in chaos of the world. Russia as the boggy-man will keep France and Germany needy of U.S. presence. If all European nations are in peace and love with one another doing trade, who needs the police in the neighborhood. European stock market tanked and global money is flying to U.S. for safety.

U.S. has been playing the role of a good guy but it would be naive and pretty much unreasonable to assume or impose U.S. to act without putting her own self-interest at top priority.

I think the west never assumed Putin to be a nice guy. Ten years ago the consensus in the west was that “Putin is a KGB thug” and Russia is a “mafia state”. But again however flawed it is Russia is a democracy and Putin consistently has 60 percent approval rating. This is not Soviet era anymore where leadership decision was made behind closed door and supported by 100% fake approval.

What does Putin want? The NATO buffer zone is indeed in my opinion an excuse. Putin has the vision and the rhetoric of a national revival, to regain the glory in the past (Soviet, Imperial Russia). The problem is Russia has very low birth rate and shrinking population. We know the absolute lower mainly comes from the absolute size of the economy, and India is a much stronger regional power than Switzerland to be respected even though per cap gdp is much lower. So even if you have a modest gdp per cap increase the entire national economy is shrinking. So the Putin strategy is to acquire all the neighboring russian speaking population under the great Russian empire.

This is the only explanation the could make sense because the cost of convincing Russian population to have 10 million babies are astronomically higher than starting regional conflicts to acquire 10 million population nearby and these Russian speaking people support joining in Russia!

Starting in a war is costly. So Russia only does when oil price is triple digit, in 2008, 2014 and 2022. When the budget allows go fight war and increase the population!
 
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Antifragile

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The problem here is that you guys in the West think that Putin is like you.
I think you are brain washed to the point of no return. You are a propaganda machine on this thread with one post after another telling us what you think we think. Lay off the CNN and Fox. Lay off me and stop telling me what you think I think.

Get your head out of your own behind and start thinking for a second.

No one. I repeat, no one here thinks Putin is a nice guy. He is a tyrant. He’s a sociopath. He’s smarter than Biden and you!

But if you can’t even consider the other side’s position and accept that the world has always been shades of grey (vs your black and white propaganda), you’ll be able to engage with people here better.

This had to be said. Hoping for a 1% chance this gets to you.
 

TonyStark

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If you don't want to believe words, believe actions.

There are still Russian troops in Crimea. They are Russian troops in Belarus. Do you really see the Russian troops leaving Ukraine? I don't. Maybe I'm proven wrong. Time will tell.

I do agree he isn't storming into five nations overnight. But I don't see how you can take him at his word.


Yeah, imagine Trump locking up Hillary and trying to shut down the New York times.

I think your point is supposed to sound far-fetched to an American ear. But these kind of parallels in tactics is why I always suspected Trump was guilty of collusion with Russia.

More importantly, because of the love of Trumpism tactics, there's a segment of Russian sympathy in this country.



And then you got this guy acting like he doesn't believe in politicians, and he's not even a fan of Trump.

But he'll tell you you know what this situation needs, more Trump.

Poor Trump. Trump Trump Trump.

Like everything Trump said was gospel truth, as opposed to whopping falsehoods, and people were wrong to try and stop him spreading lies.

But he's not a fan of Trump so don't send hate his way. Everyone else is blaming Trump in this thread. Not him. He doesn't understand why he keeps having to bring up Trump.

Trump 2022.

The doublespeak is strong.



Do you not read the comments in this very forum? Sure, they don't say the press, they complain about the media. But it's the same thing, or at least on the same spectrum.

When you have a country whose value of the press is so strong, the first thing you have to do is weaken its credibility. Then you can ignore it. Then you can suppress it.

Every successful president needs an enemy. Trump chose the media as his.

What does that tell you?



And I can't believe that person isn't an American. I'm also surprised not a single American is saying these things with him.

That's how much political thought in my country has changed in roughly 20 years.

And for the record, not every single war. That's not how we got into WWI, WWII, or 9/11.

Another difference is that we don't annex anybody anymore.

Plus we have repeatedly reinvested and at least attempted, to build up places that we went to war in. Often with great success. And to our own detriment.

But let's not give America any credit for anything. Just sell the narrative that Russia and America are just as bad.

America supported revolution to oust an unpopular but duly elected President who wanted closer Russian ties against his citizens protests.

That's not democratic.

Russia rolls in tanks and their own troops and bombs the place.

That's not democratic.

Totally the same thing.

You know, we have drug cartels literally taking over whole towns within 20 miles from our border. They are killing all the journalists. And what is the US response? Are we massing tanks to get rid of this obvious threat to our security? Are we using this as a pretense for invasion?

Stop trying to equate Russia's actions with the United States actions. There is a world of difference.



The media has been extremely biased ever since Benjamin Franklin used every one of the newspapers he owned to convince Americans they needed firefighters and wouldn't let Tories print editorials. So what's your point?
I want to give you 5 gold stars for this reply.

I want this reply to be required reading for every little boy, girl, man & woman in America!

615F03B4-9E7E-4845-A794-39AE847F291B.gif
 

loop101

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I forgot that the mayor of Kiev is - Vitali Klitschko. Him and his brother have pledged to defend the city.

 
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MJ DeMarco

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Lay off the CNN and Fox.

Yea, CNN and FOX must be really flooding the airwaves in Romania.

SMH.

The relativism in this thread is off the charts, starting with that stupid actress video, as if Putin gives a shit about some C-list actress in the Hollywood Hills.
 

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For those who ask: “Why does Ukraine matter?“
Being the second largest country by area in Europe with a population of over 40 million.

Ukraine ranks:

1st in Europe in proven recoverable reserves of uranium ores
2nd place in Europe and 10th place in the world in terms of titanium ore reserves
2nd place in the world in terms of explored reserves of manganese ores (2.3 billion tons, or 12% of the world's reserves)
2nd largest iron ore reserves in the world (30 billion tons)
2nd place in Europe in terms of mercury ore reserves
3rd place in Europe (13th place in the world) in shale gas reserves (22 trillion cubic meters)
4th in the world by the total value of natural resources
7th place in the world in coal reserves (33.9 billion tons)
Ukraine is an important agricultural country:
1st in Europe in terms of arable land area
3rd place in the world by the area of black soil (25% of world's volume)
1st place in the world in exports of sunflower and sunflower oil
2nd place in the world in barley production and 4th place in barley exports
3rd largest producer and 4th largest exporter of corn in the world
4th largest producer of potatoes in the world
5th largest rye producer in the world
5th place in the world in bee production (75,000 tons)
8th place in the world in wheat exports
9th place in the world in the production of chicken eggs
16th place in the world in cheese exports
Ukraine can meet the food needs of 600 million people.
Ukraine is an important industrialized country:
1st in Europe in ammonia production
Europe's 2nd’s and the world’s 4th largest natural gas pipeline system
3rd largest in Europe and 8th largest in the world in terms of installed capacity of nuclear power plants;l
3rd place in Europe and 11th in the world in terms of rail network length (21,700 km)
3rd place in the world (after the U.S. and France) in production of locators and locating equipment
3rd largest iron exporter in the world
4th largest exporter of turbines for nuclear power plants in the world
4th world's largest manufacturer of rocket launchers
4th place in the world in clay exports
4th place in the world in titanium exports
8th place in the world in exports of ores and concentrates
9th place in the world in exports of defence industry products
10th largest steel producer in the world (32.4 million tons)

Ukraine matters. That is why its independence is important to the rest of the world.
These resources are why Russia is chomping at the bits to take it.

The Most Painless Solution: Total War for 3 months to push Russia back to its borders with Europeans doing the fighting as its our backyard. Sadly there isnt enough balls in Western leadership for this.

Ukraine Map.jpg
 
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