Why Quiet Quitting Is Holding You Back in Life

[NeoDialectic]

I was reading this thread on quiet quitting and felt like the people in favor of it were missing the point. Winning their dynamic with their boss was more important than winning in life. They were missing the forest for the trees.

The point

Meet Bob. Bob is 30 years old, has a wife with two kids, and works for GE on the factory floor.

Bob has realized that he is not happy with his lot in life and has 4 choices.

1. Bob, the disgruntled worker
Bob feels like he is not being appreciated at work. He decides that since he is not being appreciated at work and is not being paid his value, he will start quiet quitting. This means that he will no longer work for a minute after 5 pm or pick up any extra duties which are not mandatory. He will do the bare minimum not to be fired. Every promotion he is passed up on and every raise that he is shortchanged on becomes further proof that Bob chose wisely not to do good work for this unappreciative employer. Such is life in late-stage capitalism. Bob works like this until he is fired. Then he goes on Twitter to complain about how horrible America is. The rest of his career is a repeat of this disaster until he retires.

2. Bob, the quiet quitter with FTE moment

Bob feels like he is not being appreciated at work. He decides that since he is not being appreciated at work and is not being paid his value, he will start quiet quitting. This means that he will no longer work for a minute after 5pm or pick up any extra duties which are not mandatory. Every promotion he is passed up on and every raise that he is shortchanged on becomes further proof that Bob chose wisely not to do good work for this unappreciative employer.

In the meantime, he will work on his SAAS idea, which he thinks will finally prove his worth. He no longer wants to work for selfish bosses.

3. Bob, the reasonable
Bob thinks that even though his employer may be compensating him for the value he provides the company, he could be making a lot more doing something else. He decides that even the best positions in this company limit the appreciation ($$$) he could receive, so he needs to find a way to provide more value. So, Bob starts to build his SAAS business that will enable him to provide immense value to others and unlock the appreciation ($$$) that he believes he deserves.Since Bob needs to continue supporting his family, he decides to remain at his job until he can afford to quit.

Bob continues providing the value at work that he was hired to provide, but he will no longer go the extra mile. That means he will not work after 5 pm or pick up any additional duties that are not mandatory. Not out of spite. It's just that he only has so much time and energy in a day and anything extra spent at work could mean stealing from his family and growing business. He needs to go right home at 5 pm so he could start working on his business. When Bob gets passed up for promotions or receives a smaller raise than others, he acknowledges this is the price he pays for choosing this job is of lower value than other things in his life. Even if Bob gets laid off, he can empathize with the employer.

4. Bob the Ideal

Bob thinks that even though his employer may be compensating him for the value he provides the company, he could be making a lot more doing something else. He decides that even the best positions in this company limit the appreciation ($$$) he could receive, so he needs to find a way to provide more value. So, Bob starts to build his SAAS business that will enable him to provide immense value to others and unlock the appreciation ($$$) that he believes he deserves. Since Bob needs to continue supporting his family, he decides to remain at his job until he can afford to quit.

Bob recognizes that his name is on the line every time he shows up. He sees his friends slack off, but he continues working as hard as ever. He isn't working hard because he thinks there is a carrot at the end, but rather because Bob's identity is being a hard worker. Bob is someone you can expect to get things done.

After six months of hard work with his employer and his SAAS business on the side, the business is finally ready for its first customer. During a company meeting, Bob finds out that, as luck would have it, his boss's brother is precisely the type of customer that needs his SAAS solution. So, with a good word from Bob's boss, he just landed his first customer!

---

There is a crucial lesson between every Bob #1 - #4

• Bob #1 is the typical disgruntled worker.
• Bob #2 is the bare minimum expected of you when you join this forum. If you have read the books, you should have realized that you need to take some action that provides value to improve your life. If, after spending time on these forums, you end at this level, you have quiet quit your entrepreneurial journey!
• Bob #3 is a giant leap in mindset as his Locus of Control is not internal. He isn't just a neutral observer as the world is happening to him. Things that happen to him may not always be his fault, but they are always his responsibility. He also recognizes that his actions have consequences and accepts them as costs.
• Bob #4 is the Übermensch. He recognizes everything the previous Bobs do but also recognizes that his actions define him as a person. Other people's actions do not change who Bob is. Their actions determine who they are, and that's it. People respect those that have a code and live by it. Respected hard workers are highly valued in society. Opportunity and luck seem to always find them.

The goal should be #4, but at minimum, you should be at #3. It may be ok if you tried to do #4, but the output looked more like #3. We don't always live up to our ideals.

Everyone knows there are bad bosses out there. *yawn*. The test of your mindset is what your response is to the bad boss. It's not that your actions while at your work necessarily hinder your long-term business prospects directly. It's that the mindset that leads you to those actions will hamper your long-term business prospects directly.

 

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[Johnny boy]

Bob #1 is a smelly Reddit liberal

 

[Antifragile]

Excellent post @NeoDialectic and sums it up perfectly! Love it.

I lived this by example when I was an employee. Put in the effort big enough that when I left, I was not only dearly missed but the door was always open and my boss was impressed I went on my own. Result? My old boss one day called me about a site that was a perfect fit for our business, I bought that site before others could even see it! This was ~8 years after I left the job, but the amount of money I made by not "quiet quitting" from this one transaction is in 7 figures range.

Your identity, who you are and how you behave is how the world sees you too.

Oh... and while I worked as employee there, I had a side business too. To compensate for lack of my own time, I had a partner who worked full time on the business. I also had 3 VAs (shoutout to MyTasker) helping me do work while I was at work!

The way to win in life is to be creative. Being creative is as natural to humans as breathing. Don't believe me? Just watch a kid try figure stuff out, they are creative and always find a way. Later in life we tend to set in our ways, don't let that shape your thinking, we remain creative.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Great take, thanks for sharing as I agree.

Quiet quitting is symptomatic to a much larger mental problem.

While @Black_Dragon43 might disagree, your thoughts and beliefs creates a foundation for your outward behavior.

Joe #1 and #2 have destructive thoughts which will lead to behavior not conducive to success, but failure.

Upgraded to GOLD.

 

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[lol]

I love it here.

just to clarify, is this the concept of wanting to try your best in whatever you do? Since the way you do one process will affect how you do another?

 

[MJ DeMarco]

is this the concept of wanting to try your best in whatever you do?

How you do ANYTHING is how you will do EVERYTHING.

When I mopped floors, I was the best at it.
When I stock shelves at Sears, I did my best at it. Yes, I screwed around as a 17 year old, but when it came to the job, I did my best.

 

[socaldude]

True entrepreneurs are willing to work hard for free.

 

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[heavy_industry]

Bob #4 is the Übermensch. He recognizes everything the previous Bobs do but also recognizes that his actions define him as a person.

This line is the most powerful thing I've read on the forum this month.

Thank you for this thread, very well written.
Let's be like Bob #4.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

While @Black_Dragon43 might disagree, your thoughts and beliefs creates a foundation for your outward behavior.

Haha - I don’t disagree MJ. I do think thoughts and beliefs influence actions. But - I think that the faster way to change thoughts and beliefs is by changing how you act. Action is the most powerful lever you can pull to change your self-image.

New actions = new thoughts, new beliefs. It’s why even in therapy most conditions such as depression, anxiety and even OCD aren’t overcome until the patient starts acting differently. That’s when the thoughts and feelings start shifting the fastest, and the same thoughts and emotions that used to trouble the patient lose their grip.

It’s really the realisation that one CAN, in fact, act differently that leads to shifts happening. This realization cannot be obtained fully by theorizing - only by actually acting differently.

So in this case Bob #1’s issue is that he’s taking no action. And the lack of action makes him see himself as a victim - because the truth is that in his condition and state of not being proactive at all, he IS a victim. He perceives clearly that he will be stuck in his job so long as he doesn’t change his actions.

So his belief that he is a victim - it’s 100% true for him. He would be deluded to see himself any differently. The way he can start shifting that in the fastest way possible is by realizing he’s not happy with what he’s getting and taking small steps towards moving in a different direction. As he starts seeing progress and he sees he CAN actually influence his life due to the actions he’s taking, his beliefs will shift.

Of course he could THINK that he doesn’t have to be a victim and try to chip away at that belief that way… but it won’t really work that much. Because feelings, which are the emotional part of beliefs, don’t shift that easily just by thinking differently. I can THINK I’m not a victim, but that doesn’t mean I stop feeling like a victim and perceiving myself as being a victim. That perception and the attendant emotion that go along with the belief don’t go away when thoughts change. Those positive thoughts can be the beginning of a journey, but it’s just a tiny spark - unless followed by action, which is the key component in change, nothing happens.

Bob #2 on the other hand starts taking action. He sees himself making progress on his SAAS. He understands that his SAAS may become a lot more valuable than his job. His beliefs start to shift based on the actions he’s taking.

The way I see the progression from Bob#1 to Bob#4 is how someone’s mindset changes based on the actions they take. In #1 actions aren’t aligned with their goal & circumstances. In #4 they are completely aligned.

Take any member of TFL who isn’t successful yet - and let’s define that as still working a job years after reading TMF . I’m quite sure we have such people around. Why aren’t they acting differently? They KNOW they could start a business. They KNOW that it’s possible. They’ve visualized themselves doing it. Recited mantras. Practice the law of attraction… but they still can’t let go of the job. They still can’t focus on creating real value. So why are they stuck?

And then take someone like me - I started out I’d say with quite crappy beliefs. But I took action, that was aligned with my vision. I never held a job in my life. I was scared, I thought I’d fail, I was angry at the world. Did any of that stop me? No - why not? Just because I took action. And by taking action my beliefs started to change. I no longer saw myself as incapable old me, because hey, this month I made $10K. I no longer felt as scared because hey, now I’m managing 18 people! And so on. You cannot lie to yourself - your mind KNOWS who you are based on the actions you took. That’s how your beliefs are formed. It’s a very inefficient way to shit beliefs by thinking differently, it’s very hard to trick your mind.

I spoke with an old friend awhile ago (Gordon Alexander from sowpub - he’s known in a few biz op & copywriting circles) and he mentioned that most people need to change their beliefs to be successful… but then there’s the odd one who cannot change his beliefs, but does the thing anyway. I believe that the underlying mechanism in both cases is the DOING - that is what shifts things inside the most. Just that in the case of the majority, they are led to believe that their thoughts change first, then their actions, and they fail to observe that it’s actually acting differently that’s slowly changing their beliefs.

 

[Andy Black]

How you do ANYTHING is how you will do EVERYTHING.

When I mopped floors, I was the best at it.
When I stock shelves at Sears, I did my best at it. Yes, I screwed around as a 17 year old, but when it came to the job, I did my best.

Beat me to it MJ.

One of my first summer jobs as a student was vacuuming floors in a large furniture store that was being built. Every day two of us went round the store multiple times vacuuming the sawdust left by the tradesmen assembling the showroom.

After a week the boss of the build came over and thanked us for doing such a good job. He explained we were doing an essential job vacuuming the sawdust before it was walked deeper into the carpet. (This was a great lesson in managing your staff as we both doubled our efforts to get every single bit of sawdust.)

It was a temp job and the possibility of a more permanent summer job came up (at McDonalds of all places). I told the boss I wouldn't be in later that week as I had an interview at McDonalds.

He immediately sent me to meet the manager who'd be running the new store. That manager said the boss who did store builds rarely recommended people so I must be doing something right.

Anyway, I got a warehouse job at the new store for all our student holidays. Even there I remember a grizzled old warehouseman saying "You'll go far." I didn't understand what he saw. Now I do.

People who do the best they can at vacuuming dust out of corners no-one inspects ... they'll have the same attitude to everything they do.

Every task you do is training you to do tasks well, or bare minimum.

How you do anything is how you do everything.

 

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[Isaac Odongo]

This is the most important piece of information and wisdom I have gained since The Great Race Escape a few days ago. Emotions cloud clarity. I lost a few dollars(they were much to me) because I allowed emotions to fog my mind.
These books, some of them are so powerful that after reading you feel like exploding. You feel like doing something enormous. You are unplugged. The event syndrome becomes so strong because emotions(passion is an emotion) are boiling and the feeling of doing something is huge.
At the beginning of this year I was Bob 1. I hated my teaching job because the salary couldn't get by on a bare minimum for a month. And it was as inconsistent and irregular as it could be. My workmates were the same. I worked in two schools and loved the other. I was also on the lookout for a better opportunity.
Well, one day I decided to read Rich Dad Poor Dad. Then other books followed. Then came MJ's TMF . And a few other books. I had a side project of fiction writing going on and I felt like my jobs were blocking me. So I decided to quit one of my jobs. And I wanted to quit the other too. I thought I needed time. I began to behave like Bob 1. Then I read Brian Tracy and it changed my mind.
I rekindled my concentration at work. I am sometimes requested to help the other school I quit and I do it to my best. Then I read UNSCRIPTED and the Great Rat Race Escape and learnt that Brain Tracy's wisdom was legitimate.
I am actually happy I haven't completely quit my teaching. I work without minding about my salary. They just call me for my pay. When workmates are complaining about pay I feel out of place. Besides, these school seems to have some of the best administrators in the country. Growth Mindset is everywhere. And I feel the environment is enriching to my personality.
Quiting is an event. Entrepreneurship is a process. Jeff and Sam in The Great Rat Race Escape kept their jobs and worked well for a number of years as they searched for business ideas and even as they built their business and Jeff was actually happy and more productive at his formal employment.

 

[Isaac Odongo]

Haha - I don’t disagree MJ. I do think thoughts and beliefs influence actions. But - I think that the faster way to change thoughts and beliefs is by changing how you act. Action is the most powerful lever you can pull to change your self-image.

New actions = new thoughts, new beliefs. It’s why even in therapy most conditions such as depression, anxiety and even OCD aren’t overcome until the patient starts acting differently. That’s when the thoughts and feelings start shifting the fastest, and the same thoughts and emotions that used to trouble the patient lose their grip.

It’s really the realisation that one CAN, in fact, act differently that leads to shifts happening. This realization cannot be obtained fully by theorizing - only by actually acting differently.

So in this case Bob #1’s issue is that he’s taking no action. And the lack of action makes him see himself as a victim - because the truth is that in his condition and state of not being proactive at all, he IS a victim. He perceives clearly that he will be stuck in his job so long as he doesn’t change his actions.

So his belief that he is a victim - it’s 100% true for him. He would be deluded to see himself any differently. The way he can start shifting that in the fastest way possible is by realizing he’s not happy with what he’s getting and taking small steps towards moving in a different direction. As he starts seeing progress and he sees he CAN actually influence his life due to the actions he’s taking, his beliefs will shift.

Of course he could THINK that he doesn’t have to be a victim and try to chip away at that belief that way… but it won’t really work that much. Because feelings, which are the emotional part of beliefs, don’t shift that easily just by thinking differently. I can THINK I’m not a victim, but that doesn’t mean I stop feeling like a victim and perceiving myself as being a victim. That perception and the attendant emotion that go along with the belief don’t go away when thoughts change. Those positive thoughts can be the beginning of a journey, but it’s just a tiny spark - unless followed by action, which is the key component in change, nothing happens.

Bob #2 on the other hand starts taking action. He sees himself making progress on his SAAS. He understands that his SAAS may become a lot more valuable than his job. His beliefs start to shift based on the actions he’s taking.

The way I see the progression from Bob#1 to Bob#4 is how someone’s mindset changes based on the actions they take. In #1 actions aren’t aligned with their goal & circumstances. In #4 they are completely aligned.

Take any member of TFL who isn’t successful yet - and let’s define that as still working a job years after reading TMF . I’m quite sure we have such people around. Why aren’t they acting differently? They KNOW they could start a business. They KNOW that it’s possible. They’ve visualized themselves doing it. Recited mantras. Practice the law of attraction… but they still can’t let go of the job. They still can’t focus on creating real value. So why are they stuck?

And then take someone like me - I started out I’d say with quite crappy beliefs. But I took action, that was aligned with my vision. I never held a job in my life. I was scared, I thought I’d fail, I was angry at the world. Did any of that stop me? No - why not? Just because I took action. And by taking action my beliefs started to change. I no longer saw myself as incapable old me, because hey, this month I made $10K. I no longer felt as scared because hey, now I’m managing 18 people! And so on. You cannot lie to yourself - your mind KNOWS who you are based on the actions you took. That’s how your beliefs are formed. It’s a very inefficient way to shit beliefs by thinking differently, it’s very hard to trick your mind.

I spoke with an old friend awhile ago (Gordon Alexander from sowpub - he’s known in a few biz op & copywriting circles) and he mentioned that most people need to change their beliefs to be successful… but then there’s the odd one who cannot change his beliefs, but does the thing anyway. I believe that the underlying mechanism in both cases is the DOING - that is what shifts things inside the most. Just that in the case of the majority, they are led to believe that their thoughts change first, then their actions, and they fail to observe that it’s actually acting differently that’s slowly changing their beliefs.

I think this agrees with the rule of execution. Ideas suck. Execution is king. Description is dirt. Demonstration is gold. The mind is simply complex. For example, I took action by deciding to learn about entrepreneurship and wealth. I came across people who suggested investment. I decided to try that in cryptocurrency trading and lost a few dollars. I took more action and read further because I realised I was too broke to be an investor. The action to read further led me to MJ and now this has influenced my thinking and beliefs. I now think in terms about problem-solving and asymmetrical returns.

 

[adl75]

Haha - I don’t disagree MJ. I do think thoughts and beliefs influence actions. But - I think that the faster way to change thoughts and beliefs is by changing how you act. Action is the most powerful lever you can pull to change your self-image.

New actions = new thoughts, new beliefs. It’s why even in therapy most conditions such as depression, anxiety and even OCD aren’t overcome until the patient starts acting differently. That’s when the thoughts and feelings start shifting the fastest, and the same thoughts and emotions that used to trouble the patient lose their grip.

It’s really the realisation that one CAN, in fact, act differently that leads to shifts happening. This realization cannot be obtained fully by theorizing - only by actually acting differently.

So in this case Bob #1’s issue is that he’s taking no action. And the lack of action makes him see himself as a victim - because the truth is that in his condition and state of not being proactive at all, he IS a victim. He perceives clearly that he will be stuck in his job so long as he doesn’t change his actions.

So his belief that he is a victim - it’s 100% true for him. He would be deluded to see himself any differently. The way he can start shifting that in the fastest way possible is by realizing he’s not happy with what he’s getting and taking small steps towards moving in a different direction. As he starts seeing progress and he sees he CAN actually influence his life due to the actions he’s taking, his beliefs will shift.

Of course he could THINK that he doesn’t have to be a victim and try to chip away at that belief that way… but it won’t really work that much. Because feelings, which are the emotional part of beliefs, don’t shift that easily just by thinking differently. I can THINK I’m not a victim, but that doesn’t mean I stop feeling like a victim and perceiving myself as being a victim. That perception and the attendant emotion that go along with the belief don’t go away when thoughts change. Those positive thoughts can be the beginning of a journey, but it’s just a tiny spark - unless followed by action, which is the key component in change, nothing happens.

Bob #2 on the other hand starts taking action. He sees himself making progress on his SAAS. He understands that his SAAS may become a lot more valuable than his job. His beliefs start to shift based on the actions he’s taking.

The way I see the progression from Bob#1 to Bob#4 is how someone’s mindset changes based on the actions they take. In #1 actions aren’t aligned with their goal & circumstances. In #4 they are completely aligned.

Take any member of TFL who isn’t successful yet - and let’s define that as still working a job years after reading TMF . I’m quite sure we have such people around. Why aren’t they acting differently? They KNOW they could start a business. They KNOW that it’s possible. They’ve visualized themselves doing it. Recited mantras. Practice the law of attraction… but they still can’t let go of the job. They still can’t focus on creating real value. So why are they stuck?

And then take someone like me - I started out I’d say with quite crappy beliefs. But I took action, that was aligned with my vision. I never held a job in my life. I was scared, I thought I’d fail, I was angry at the world. Did any of that stop me? No - why not? Just because I took action. And by taking action my beliefs started to change. I no longer saw myself as incapable old me, because hey, this month I made $10K. I no longer felt as scared because hey, now I’m managing 18 people! And so on. You cannot lie to yourself - your mind KNOWS who you are based on the actions you took. That’s how your beliefs are formed. It’s a very inefficient way to shit beliefs by thinking differently, it’s very hard to trick your mind.

I spoke with an old friend awhile ago (Gordon Alexander from sowpub - he’s known in a few biz op & copywriting circles) and he mentioned that most people need to change their beliefs to be successful… but then there’s the odd one who cannot change his beliefs, but does the thing anyway. I believe that the underlying mechanism in both cases is the DOING - that is what shifts things inside the most. Just that in the case of the majority, they are led to believe that their thoughts change first, then their actions, and they fail to observe that it’s actually acting differently that’s slowly changing their beliefs.

Great ! I hope to be like Bob3 while working as an employee after now 28 years of service...staying at work with minimum effort maximum results...despite winning contests to move up the ladder... ( but for 3 years now I have been looking for outside alternatives, creating a winery.. and some real estate investment..) especially after reading TMF 2 times, Unscripted .. and Great race Escape.
Thanks

 

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[Dany]

Thanks for sharing, great post.

Currently shifting between Bob2 and Bob4. One is to little, the other to much with to little time for more important things. To me best to aim for Bob3.

 

[Isaac Odongo]

Thanks for sharing, great post.

Currently shifting between Bob2 and Bob4. One is to little, the other to much with to little time for more important things. To me best to aim for Bob3.

I'd rather you aim for Bob 4. Remember those who are faithful in what is least are also faithful in much.

 

[biophase]

When I worked in corporate I had 6 jobs in 10 years. I kind of flip flopped between the do awesome work and the quietly quit mentality. First job, I did all the work, left at 5, but was very efficient. I quit that job to go to my second one. My second job, I was doing very well and my company got bought out by another one and moved its HQ from Chicago to Arkansas.

However, I got my next job because I had a ton of contacts and referrals that knew I did good work. So working hard definitely benefitted me.

This new job, I got laid off when the company let go of the entire division and went a different direction. I was probably Bob #2 at this job. Why work extra if you just get laid off eventually. Didn't matter how awesome I was at my job. NO control.

My next job, I was still Bob #2, I got laid off when the company went under. I stayed at work late mainly because everyone else did. Heck when the founder is paying for dinner and all the drinks after work all the time and everyone is between 20-30 years old... this is what happens when you work in the dot com era.

My next job, I was Bob #3 and was going to try to move up in the company. This was a huge old insurance company. But then I read Rich Dad and joined the forum. There went the fire of living a corporate life, lol. I was actually a great employee and highly valued but I couldn't wait to get out of there and wasn't interested in any raises or promotion.

 

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[Andy Black]

When workmates are complaining about pay I feel out of place.

I was an IT contractor for a decade. I was self-employed and sat in teams of permanent employees. I was oblivious to all the bickering, office politics, and complaining. I just zoned out of it. It's amazing how zen you become when the steering wheel is in your own hands.

 

[RicardoGrande]

Imo, there's a large chunk of quiet quitting that rests with self-agency.
If you believe that what you do is unimportant, or believe that you are completely replaceable (See all the jobs most prone to quiet quitting: amazon floor worker, barista, fast-food worker, menial office spread-sheet bot) and there COULD be better things they could do, then why expend your energy and time? Don't forget, a lot of millenials and zoomers watched their parents lose sleep, hair, and even get sick stressing themselves out over jobs that never took them above 20$/hr despite 15/20/30 years of work while they themselves feel underpayed and overworked.

On the other hand, and one that hits closer to home for me: With the devaluation of the U.S. Dollar and decoupling of U.S. worker wages from productivity... what's the point? You won't be able to own a home, you won't be able to have a family (It costs about 60,000$ to have a baby now, doesn't it?). Most cars cost as much if not more than the average american worker's salary too and this doesn't even factor in things like skyrocketing insurance rates and inflation impacting groceries.

Before any boomers explode in a fury at me- A unskilled construction worker in the 1970s had a REAL shot at having a home and being able to support a wife and a few kids if they were smart with their budgeting. I myself have a family member who likes to fondly wax about how his first blue-collar job in the 70's allowed him to blow almost half of his monthly pay ordering pizzas (too lazy to cook) but was still able to rent and save enough to ultimately buy a house.
On the other end in the 2020s, I'm a full-time professional worker doing the jobs of three different people at my job, I only JUST received a pay-bump this year after a half-decade of commendable performance at work that makes my pay only SLIGHTLY competitive for my job role in my job market... and I could never dream of owning a house let alone rent a place all to myself (even if it was just a particle board shack next to a graveyard in the bayous of louisiana).

It's a really rough deal for people in my generation and younger that I don't believe older Americans or those blessed enough to be able to champion their own time and the paths of their own lives realize. I actually mentally struggle with meeting and exceeding my own job duties while also working my @$$ off on my side hustle and not getting terminally depressed like I used to. Even despite my efforts, the clock is ticking and I don't even have half of what my own parents had when they were in the mid-20s.

Luckily I've been able to network and run into a lot of people that worked their @$$es off and found fortune and are making 140k+ in their jobs or 10x that in their businesses... but we're talking only a sliver of the millenial demographic cohort... only few get to be that lucky- or earn it.

 

[Xeon]

Bob #2 is the bare minimum expected of you when you join this forum. If you have read the books, you should have realized that you need to take some action that provides value to improve your life. If, after spending time on these forums, you end at this level, you have quiet quit your entrepreneurial journey!

Bob 2 didn't quit his entrepreneurial journey because he's working on his SASS idea part time.

If you believe that what you do is unimportant, or believe that you are completely replaceable (See all the jobs most prone to quiet quitting: amazon floor worker, barista, fast-food worker, menial office spread-sheet bot) and there COULD be better things they could do, then why expend your energy and time?

Yup, this guy totally gets it. Especially this paragraph I quoted.

 

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[Bekit]

One thing that I think is worth adding to the discussion:
What choices do you have as a worker (besides quiet quitting) when your working conditions are terrible?

Here's an example.

My sister is a dental hygienist.

She is an incredibly faithful, diligent, high-caliber worker. No matter what she sets her mind to, she does it efficiently and tirelessly. She is incredibly strong. (As an example, she has summited all the fourteeners in Colorado and has done multiple marathons, a 50-mile run, and a 100 km run.) Knowing my sister, work ethic or low energy is not the problem.

Well, all of a sudden, the dentist where she works gets a consultant that comes in to "make the practice more profitable."

The consultant wants the hygienists to "do more with each appointment."

So they have been loading the hygienists with a superhuman workload that they simply can't keep up with. My sister can't drink water at work because she doesn't have time to pee all day. She has been dealing with constant anxiety at work (which is totally brand new, not like her). And she has been having debilitating migraines that are getting worse and more frequent because she's leaning over a patient's mouth all day (which puts a terrible strain on your head and neck when done long-term) and it's made worse because she's unable to drink enough water.

I think it's fair to sum all this up by saying that she is operating in terrible working conditions that are putting her physical and mental health at risk. And the working conditions are this bad because the practice is solving the wrong problem. They did not have a problem with lazy hygienists. They actually had good, competent, hard-working hygienists. So it's unfair. It's an unhealthy environment. And I think the employer legitimately deserves to suffer some consequences for this.

So what choices does someone like my sister have?

1. She could raise a ruckus.
Set boundaries. Stand up for yourself. Use your voice. Be assertive. Communicate to the boss that the expectations are unattainable and unacceptable, and they will not be followed. Join hands with the other employees and lay down an ultimatum. "We're not doing this. We'll go this far, but no further." I would argue that this is NOT quiet quitting. This is just saying no and giving pushback when the conditions cross a line. In my mind, if you're at the point where no amount of a raise would offset the awfulness of the work environment, the conditions have crossed a line. And if you're literally unable to keep yourself adequately hydrated because you know you won't be able to use the bathroom when you need to, no amount of money would make sense to pay me extra to put up with that. Well - raise a ruckus. See if the boss will grant some concessions. He probably will. In my sister's case, a dentist without hygienists is going to be hurting. So he's going to have to relent on some of this stuff. Easier said than done? Sure. I know my sister is not going to find this easy. She's so gentle and kind and non-confrontational that it's definitely not something that would come naturally to her. But if that's too scary, then just do #2!

2. She could apply to different jobs.
Changing jobs is a quick and straightforward way to get out of a terrible situation. In my sister's case, the demand for dental hygienists makes it an easy job market. You're not going to be unemployed for long, because there are tons of jobs. If the dentist is pushing people to quit because the conditions are so bad, then he's not going to have a practice. And then so much for the fancy consultant who is promising to make the practice more profitable.

3. She could quiet quit, but what would that accomplish for her?
Let's say raising a ruckus hasn't worked, and let's say that rather than changing jobs, she decides to hunker down and just survive this one for a little longer. What will that accomplish? Nothing good. She's still stuck in an environment that gives her anxiety. Quiet quitting isn't going to bring her bathroom breaks or migraine relief. If doing the "bare minimum" in this case is already herculean level, then she's going to remain stressed and miserable for longer than she needs to. I guarantee you not every dentist operates their practice this way. She's not stuck in an environment where there's no other choice. So what good would quiet quitting even do?

Genuine question:
For people who believe in quiet quitting, why would you choose that rather than #1 or #2?

 

[biophase]

One thing that I think is worth adding to the discussion:
What choices do you have as a worker (besides quiet quitting) when your working conditions are terrible?

Here's an example.

My sister is a dental hygienist.

She is an incredibly faithful, diligent, high-caliber worker. No matter what she sets her mind to, she does it efficiently and tirelessly. She is incredibly strong. (As an example, she has summited all the fourteeners in Colorado and has done multiple marathons, a 50-mile run, and a 100 km run.) Knowing my sister, work ethic or low energy is not the problem.

Well, all of a sudden, the dentist where she works gets a consultant that comes in to "make the practice more profitable."

The consultant wants the hygienists to "do more with each appointment."

So they have been loading the hygienists with a superhuman workload that they simply can't keep up with. My sister can't drink water at work because she doesn't have time to pee all day. She has been dealing with constant anxiety at work (which is totally brand new, not like her). And she has been having debilitating migraines that are getting worse and more frequent because she's leaning over a patient's mouth all day (which puts a terrible strain on your head and neck when done long-term) and it's made worse because she's unable to drink enough water.

I think it's fair to sum all this up by saying that she is operating in terrible working conditions that are putting her physical and mental health at risk. And the working conditions are this bad because the practice is solving the wrong problem. They did not have a problem with lazy hygienists. They actually had good, competent, hard-working hygienists. So it's unfair. It's an unhealthy environment. And I think the employer legitimately deserves to suffer some consequences for this.

So what choices does someone like my sister have?

1. She could raise a ruckus.
Set boundaries. Stand up for yourself. Use your voice. Be assertive. Communicate to the boss that the expectations are unattainable and unacceptable, and they will not be followed. Join hands with the other employees and lay down an ultimatum. "We're not doing this. We'll go this far, but no further." I would argue that this is NOT quiet quitting. This is just saying no and giving pushback when the conditions cross a line. In my mind, if you're at the point where no amount of a raise would offset the awfulness of the work environment, the conditions have crossed a line. And if you're literally unable to keep yourself adequately hydrated because you know you won't be able to use the bathroom when you need to, no amount of money would make sense to pay me extra to put up with that. Well - raise a ruckus. See if the boss will grant some concessions. He probably will. In my sister's case, a dentist without hygienists is going to be hurting. So he's going to have to relent on some of this stuff. Easier said than done? Sure. I know my sister is not going to find this easy. She's so gentle and kind and non-confrontational that it's definitely not something that would come naturally to her. But if that's too scary, then just do #2!

2. She could apply to different jobs.
Changing jobs is a quick and straightforward way to get out of a terrible situation. In my sister's case, the demand for dental hygienists makes it an easy job market. You're not going to be unemployed for long, because there are tons of jobs. If the dentist is pushing people to quit because the conditions are so bad, then he's not going to have a practice. And then so much for the fancy consultant who is promising to make the practice more profitable.

3. She could quiet quit, but what would that accomplish for her?
Let's say raising a ruckus hasn't worked, and let's say that rather than changing jobs, she decides to hunker down and just survive this one for a little longer. What will that accomplish? Nothing good. She's still stuck in an environment that gives her anxiety. Quiet quitting isn't going to bring her bathroom breaks or migraine relief. If doing the "bare minimum" in this case is already herculean level, then she's going to remain stressed and miserable for longer than she needs to. I guarantee you not every dentist operates their practice this way. She's not stuck in an environment where there's no other choice. So what good would quiet quitting even do?

Genuine question:
For people who believe in quiet quitting, why would you choose that rather than #1 or #2?

If I was your sister, I would just drink water and go to the bathroom when she has to. Just ask the patient to wait two minutes while you go to the bathroom. Yes, she will be two minutes behind in cleaning and for the next appointment but who cares.

Is her dentist boss actually going to say no you cannot go to the bathroom? If he does, I would say hold on let me ask you again while I record you with my phone.

 

[MakeItHappen]

"How you do one thing is how you do everything."

To me, this quote doesn't seem to be a law written in stone.

I would agree that how you do one thing that you care deeply about is how you do everything you care deeply about.
I don't see the value in pouring a lot of energy/resources into things you don't care about.

BTW there are a lot of ultra-successful people who have a shitty family life and make shitty health choices. If how you do one thing determines how you do everything they wouldn't have become successful in the first place. Instead, all millionaires would have fantastic lives all around. What matter is how you show up to what YOU value. And this will affect what YOU value and not what you don't value.

There are some dead-end jobs where you are 100% replaceable and have pretty much no opportunity to make a career out of it. I don't see anything bad with only doing the bare minimum. That doesn't mean that you make a shitty job on purpose but I wouldn't go the extra mile either.

This is an entrepreneurial forum and from the view of the entrepreneur, it would be good if your employees always give it 100% and also go the extra mile. But your business isn't the priority of your employees.

 

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[heavy_industry]

BTW there are a lot of ultra-successful people who have a shitty family life and make shitty health choices.

Some rich people have shitty personal lives, but it doesn't even come close to poor people - where the incidence is at least 10 times higher.

The statistics are very clear:

Richer people are healthier, happier, live a more fulfilling life, they are more generous, and have more meaningful relationships.

But I don't think that money is the cause of this correlation. It's the other way around:

High quality people end up living high quality lives.

They are rich because they deserve to be.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

BTW there are a lot of ultra-successful people who have a shitty family life and make shitty health choices. If how you do one thing determines how you do everything they wouldn't have become successful in the first place. Instead, all millionaires would have fantastic lives all around. What matter is how you show up to what YOU value. And this will affect what YOU value and not what you don't value.

Or maybe it's precisely the traits that made them successful in business that make them shitty at relationships or health choices. Just like Goggins is a massive success at sports/physical tasks, but struggles with relationships.

But you do make an interesting point.

Life is more nuanced than the self-help industry would like you to believe.

And it's very difficult to capture that nuance in a framework.

All frameworks sound good. On paper.

Talk to your customers. Build something people value. And so on.

It sounds good, but what happens when you talk to your customers and you get 1-word answers? Or they just give you unthoughtful answers because they can't be bothered? What if you've spoken to 200 people and can't get ones who give you meaningful data? These are all questions that you have to find the answers to yourself.

Entrepreneurship isn't the kind of thing where someone gives you step by step instructions, and you can just follow in their path and be successful. You have to tailor it to your own circumstances, personality, and so on.

 

[Master K. Stone]

Sensational advice.

Some of these lessons can only come through the tough teacher of experience. I subconsciously began "quiet quitting" 18 months ago. Only recently did I wake up to this fact. Life sucked for those 18 months.

I'd recommend never doing it. Hard work isn't everything but it sure does help.

 

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[biophase]

How you do ANYTHING is how you will do EVERYTHING.

I struggle with this sometimes on things that don't seem to matter. Do I really need to get it perfect?

For example, I'm cutting a tile for a floor and the edge is off by 1". However, this tile is in the back of the laundry room and will be covered by the dryer. Do I use a whole new tile and recut it?

 

[Charnell]

I struggle with this sometimes on things that don't seem to matter. Do I really need to get it perfect?

For example, I'm cutting a tile for a floor and the edge is off by 1". However, this tile is in the back of the laundry room and will be covered by the dryer. Do I use a whole new tile and recut it?

That's the rule! You gotta do everything perfectly, or you're a failure

 

[Bekit]

I struggle with this sometimes on things that don't seem to matter. Do I really need to get it perfect?

For example, I'm cutting a tile for a floor and the edge is off by 1". However, this tile is in the back of the laundry room and will be covered by the dryer. Do I use a whole new tile and recut it?

To me that just says, "I don't sweat the small stuff and I don't like to be wasteful when the "perfect" version wouldn't really matter."

Does that describe "how you do everything"?

If so, the saying holds true.

 

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[NeoDialectic]

Imo, there's a large chunk of quiet quitting that rests with self-agency.
If you believe that what you do is unimportant, or believe that you are completely replaceable (See all the jobs most prone to quiet quitting: amazon floor worker, barista, fast-food worker, menial office spread-sheet bot) and there COULD be better things they could do, then why expend your energy and time? Don't forget, a lot of millenials and zoomers watched their parents lose sleep, hair, and even get sick stressing themselves out over jobs that never took them above 20$/hr despite 15/20/30 years of work while they themselves feel underpayed and overworked.

On the other hand, and one that hits closer to home for me: With the devaluation of the U.S. Dollar and decoupling of U.S. worker wages from productivity... what's the point? You won't be able to own a home, you won't be able to have a family (It costs about 60,000$ to have a baby now, doesn't it?). Most cars cost as much if not more than the average american worker's salary too and this doesn't even factor in things like skyrocketing insurance rates and inflation impacting groceries.

Before any boomers explode in a fury at me- A unskilled construction worker in the 1970s had a REAL shot at having a home and being able to support a wife and a few kids if they were smart with their budgeting. I myself have a family member who likes to fondly wax about how his first blue-collar job in the 70's allowed him to blow almost half of his monthly pay ordering pizzas (too lazy to cook) but was still able to rent and save enough to ultimately buy a house.
On the other end in the 2020s, I'm a full-time professional worker doing the jobs of three different people at my job, I only JUST received a pay-bump this year after a half-decade of commendable performance at work that makes my pay only SLIGHTLY competitive for my job role in my job market... and I could never dream of owning a house let alone rent a place all to myself (even if it was just a particle board shack next to a graveyard in the bayous of louisiana).

It's a really rough deal for people in my generation and younger that I don't believe older Americans or those blessed enough to be able to champion their own time and the paths of their own lives realize. I actually mentally struggle with meeting and exceeding my own job duties while also working my @$$ off on my side hustle and not getting terminally depressed like I used to. Even despite my efforts, the clock is ticking and I don't even have half of what my own parents had when they were in the mid-20s.

Luckily I've been able to network and run into a lot of people that worked their @$$es off and found fortune and are making 140k+ in their jobs or 10x that in their businesses... but we're talking only a sliver of the millenial demographic cohort... only few get to be that lucky- or earn it.

What are you talking about? Are you an unskilled construction worker? Is this a forum for unskilled construction workers? The context of all the conversations here is entrepreneurship. You are fighting to become a successful entrepreneur, and it's never been easier. That in itself is partially what is responsible for the wealth inequality gap that you allude to! The middle class has shrunk since previous generations...What is conveniently left out is that this isn't because more people have become poor. In fact, the middle class has shrunk because a large portion has migrated to the upper class!

Speaking of construction workers... The median construction worker makes 40k a year in AZ. A nurse is making 80k. That sounds like a very solid household income right there. Society has become more complex, and there are fewer unskilled jobs that don't require some form of specialization. However, if you are willing to work hard and improve your skills, you will do very well in our society.

You've done an excellent job parroting the talking points from your favorite ideologue, but there is much more to the picture than you present. Today's blue-collar workers can afford an enormously easier and better material lifestyle than previous generations. The housing crisis has much more to do with population growth, zoning laws, and rising standards. Do you think you would be doing just as well as a woman in your parent's generation? What about as a person of color? How much do you think you'd enjoy your "cheap" home while you are drafted into the army, forced to take a weapon, and shoot at another human being? It sounds like a "rough deal" if I've heard one. I don't want to waste time presenting the other side to everything you said, but suffice it to say that you paint a very one-sided bleak image.

The current state of society is far from perfect, and progress brings growing pains. While I disagree with your one-sided picture, I do not disagree with the sentiment that there are structural issues. No matter the source, a high Gini coefficient leads to societal chaos. So there are lots of issues. But just like everything else, there is a time and place for everything. If we were discussing the state of the union around a campfire, we could have a healthy discussion on these structural issues that may have left more people behind than before. When discussing society-wide issues, you leave out personal autonomy and responsibility. Instead, you look at structures and how they affect people.

But we aren't around a campfire discussing sociology. We are on a forum discussing what is optimal for the individual. It's clear. Taking full responsibility for everything happening in your life and working hard will lead to the most optimal outcome for you. Be Bob #4, and you will achieve the best you are capable of achieving. Make excuses about how hard things are; you will forever be left behind. At least you won't be lonely. Misery loves company.

BTW....just in case you decide to call us boomers.....I'm a millennial. @fastlane_dad is a millennial. All our friends growing up are millennials.

If you believe that what you do is unimportant, or believe that you are completely replaceable (See all the jobs most prone to quiet quitting: amazon floor worker, barista, fast-food worker, menial office spread-sheet bot) and there COULD be better things they could do, then why expend your energy and time? ------- Yup, this guy totally gets it. Especially this paragraph I quoted.

You expending your energy on doing something well has absolutely nothing to do with your employer. Your employer is responsible for his actions and you are responsible for yours. If you believe you are of higher value, then go get a better job that will pay you more.No one here is suggesting you should get paid less than you deserve! Otherwise, you are doing a good job because you are learning on the job so that one day you really will be more valuable. People respect competence.

There is certainly a lot of nuances that can be put into these discussions. Especially along the front of priorities, values, and theory vs real life. I'll reply with my thoughts on that quoting some of the other posters.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

I struggle with this sometimes on things that don't seem to matter. Do I really need to get it perfect?

For example, I'm cutting a tile for a floor and the edge is off by 1". However, this tile is in the back of the laundry room and will be covered by the dryer. Do I use a whole new tile and recut it?

I agree with your point 100%.

To me it’s about being efficient versus being effective.

I hate wasting time on things that don’t matter.

I want to focus on things that keep the ball rolling.

And honestly, as a business owner, you should want the same for your employees. There are always going to be tasks that are boring, feel pointless, etc. But they should be limited as much as possible so that the biggest goals can be focused on…

High value and/or high leverage tasks for everyone would be the ideal scenario. Not possible. Just the ideal. Better equipment, better software, etc.

Like this old quote… “if this is a jobs program, why not replace the workers’ shovels with spoons?”

“Busy work” ain’t shit.