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What People Won't Tell You About Crytpo Currency

Anything related to investing, including crypto

socaldude

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To understand cryptocurrency you have to reason off first principles into more complex insights.

So far I haven't seen anybody use this method of investigation(to prove or disprove).

You have to understand what "money" is. What makes something valuable? Why do people adopt something? What makes something a sustainable currency? why do currencies fail? Does money have to be centralized and have the stamp of approval from a government?

This is where i'm starting out. I know nothing about cryptocurrencies but I know If I want to understand it I have to start there with the basics.
 
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Guest92dX

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Alt coins are not safe. Ethereum and Bitcoin are (relatively).

Choosing ASICs for Sia – Sia Blog

Not only that: who can just buy an ASIC?

What's cool about dissipating electricity and ruining the environment.

The world global carbon footprint or US footprint went up for the first time this year. I didn't hear their reasons, but if you're using $30k of U.S. electricity PER BLOCK or even $5k that's literally like 60 homes and 10 homes repsectively, per block you mine.

So mine up the end of the world dissipating electricity instead of using the technology in the real world. Literally having a coin based on upcycling and recycling would be true decentralization.

If you don't give the power to recycling centers then no one can literally own the blockchain. Also having 1000s of people going around and cleaning up cities is amazing.

The article shows more of what I'm talking about:

If I build an ASIC or GPU super center that's faster and more efficient then I win.

Where there is an incentive it's reality.

Taking over mining centers to launch attacks is also a very real issue. If they have a mission rather than a financial incentive.

Not everyone is greedy or even out to make money. In fact, many people in InfoSec think otherwise.
 
G

Guest92dX

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1. Art is not like money. That's a bad comparison.

2. You admit the skill argument is right and change the response based on semantics rather than intent. You know the intent. You know you are not most people just jumping in. You most likely played poker before its consolidation.

Also, kudos to you because the game is hard. You're a smart guy.

3. You've put me in a hard position there. That's a fair statement. That part is just my opinion. That has been my experience.

I'm open to persuasion. I'm not close minded.

I just know how perceived "easy" money attracts people.

4. Your second argument is just saying that the ends justify the means. Literally, you're saying the way you achieve something doesn't matter at all. That's a valid moral viewpoint.

That doesn't stop my argument from being valid as well.

5. I do understand that it's still fundamentally electricity. However, it really has no usage until it reaches storage.

I'll retract that argument as it is minor and useless.

The main point is that it is Carbon Footprint is increasing from it.

I've never heard of renewable energy powered mining centers. If that's true then I take my point back.

6. I'll give you the next point about it being safer than FIAT because I didn't state it accurately.

My argument was as adoption increases so does the probability of a critical vulnerability because financial incentives increase motivation.

With the rise of Alt coins you and tons of ICOs you have huge issues of money being pumped out of the system.

See the blogpost I pointed that talks about the Sia coin.

7. I would like proof that 96.3% of crypto users are upstanding.

Also, I would like proof that 96.3% of crypto users = 96.3% of miners and creators in the ecosystem are upstanding.

My argument is about all three. You cannot cherry pick your points.

8. There is a huge difference between your car and your bank account/investment. It's a much bigger difference.

So, would you agree that you should invest with a financial planner without knowing how to read and interpret their offerings?

You're investing in the technology and use itself, the currency. You are not investing in anything else.

It's a perfectly fair argument to say you should know how to do due diligence on that offering.

9. Your point about the restaurants is actually proof of what I'm saying. Most restaurants and bars started by people who never worked in one fail spectacularly. Survival and growth goes up as experience does.

The argument you want to make is that you don't need to know the theory that makes up the technology to succeed in it.

This may be true, but the analogy you gave is only one that proves my point.

10. You sound angry that I'm saying there are flaws in the technology and that a worst case scenario is likely on the new currencies.

You do not need to attack me as person. I haven't done that to you.

No, I cannot build a network of GPUs to own the side currencies and topple them. However, saying I can't do it doesn't mean it's impossible. It also doesn't mean its hard.

Costly doesn't mean hard.

Here's the thing: you're using my "exact" wording once again to skip the meaning.

11. You have a fair point about using cash in places. That's fine. My arguments have been thought out though.

If I'm not mistaken China put a ban on using the currencies and making ICOs because of scamming issues.

12. You're making money, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong about the usage of those currencies.

You're saying the only possibility is that I'm wrong about every impact and consequence because you're making money.

For someone indicting my logic, I'm glad you're not taking it too serious.

Kudos. Enjoy your money.

13. My last point is about the numerous pop ups of the ICOs. Sounds like a bubble coming. Hey, don't get me wrong.

We're looking at this from different points of view.

If money made justifies it for you then so be it. I'm not an outcome based person because it leads to many slippery slopes.

I'm not even entirely means based in my logic about it.
 
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Guest92dX

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@MJ DeMarco

The thread has just turned into bashing my character.

It's really getting to cyber bullying. That is something I feel strongly about. I feel that a compassionate first approach is important to life.

I also do realize that anything you say on forum will be turned against you.

I started the thread off wrong. I should have used more blog posts and posed it as a question so people can come to the conclusion on their own.

I also shouldn't have used strong language.

I was also a minor victim in Mt. Gox scam and poker scams, even though I made minor amounts of money in poker.

I see the same patterns in the cryptos and wanted to give my view.

There are literally 5 major problems I see:

1. Environment
2. Decentralization (the main draw)
3. Scamming
4. No value creation. I disagree with the premise of the currency, not to say that FIAT is free from problems.
5. Hijacking of Alt coins
6. Deeper need for trust in the tech industry
7. The fundamental question of who should be able mine if true decentralization can't happen.

All of those points are considered non-issues to the community. Some of them must know more than me. Maybe all of them do and can answer those questions for their self.

Please delete or dump it to the landfill.

Best,
 

MJ DeMarco

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The thread has just turned into bashing my character.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing that. I see people countering your arguments.

Please delete or dump it to the landfill.

I don't believe the thread deserves to be deleted or needs to go to the landfill.

It is educational and will help people form an opinion, either one that mimics yours or the other side, or somewhere in between. That's why we're here.
 

James Fake

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As someone is who on the verge of building a business (possibly software with a partner & also another by myself) in the Crypto space.. I am very pro-crypto.

With that said; I couldn't read through all of it tbh. But I will say that from my quick skim: I agree with some points, and dis-agree with others. The parts I dis-agree with are things that will be fixed and evolve on it's way, remember this is only the beginning; the version 1.

Also; remember... blockchain is a technology. A lot of people don't realize that the Blockchain technology itself, there are things that even the greatest developers haven't even found a use yet, or can even describe it. =)
 
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Longinus

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The thread has just turned into bashing my character.

It's really getting to cyber bullying. That is something I feel strongly about. I feel that a compassionate first approach is important to life.

I also do realize that anything you say on forum will be turned against you.

I started the thread off wrong. I should have used more blog posts and posed it as a question so people can come to the conclusion on their own.

I also shouldn't have used strong language.

Yes, because what you posted here, will haunt you forever until your last days on forum.

Get your shit together and go on with your life. You posted some stupid stuff (haven't we all?), agreed, but you also opened an interesting pro and con discussion.

It could have been worst: at least you did not claim to have become a millionaire overnight or ask consulting fees for "charity" :smuggy:
 

bettereveryday

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I have no idea what the hell you're talking about OP

You're literally on a computer right now typing as it performs "work" for you. Morally wrong my a$$

I made a thread awhile ago calling "cryptocurrency a crock of sh*t". 99% of the people who posted in the thread bashed me and their counterargument was completely rooted in emotion.

I became even more embedded in my negative opinion, anytime I see people flocking to something and being swept off their feet by the hype, I know it's usually best practice to stay away from it.

That was until JScott came in and broke it down for me, his points were rooted in logic and reason, it made sense and it completely changed my opinion of cryptocurrency.

I'm a believer now, I'm an even biggerbeliever in blockchain and decentralization. That sh*t has the possibility of changing the world and it's power structure, which I don't think will happen cause humans are gonna be humans, but knowing something like that is out there is pretty cool.

This idea and philosophy of decentralization is beautiful. There's developers out there working towards creating a decentralized internet where we no longer have to rely on ISP's, could you imagine that?

It's probably not gonna happen anytime soon, but f*ck its pretty exciting to think about.

Cryptocurrency and blockchain has the potential to take power away from the banks and governments, we no longer have to rely and trust them, we can just trust and rely on the blockchain.

Here's the thing though, this isn't how the f*cking world works. The CryptoMarkets are unregulated and subject to manipulation, the people in power now see an opportunity, Wall Street is swooping in and taking advantage of any chinks in the armor.

And the "crypto-enthusiasts", 99% of em don't give a shit.

Cryptocurrency was created to be a means of exchange and a store of value, an alternative/improvement to the dollar and all these other sh**ty currencies where we have to put our faith in an incompetent govt/power structure.

Well guess what? Everyone just sees it as an opportunity to profit, to make more money in the very currency they criticize (the dollar). People are treating cryptocurrency like the *cking stock market.

On one hand you got governments and Wall Street swooping in, and then you got the masses thinking this sh*t will get them rich, "to the moon we go" as they say.

Cryptocurrency was like a beautiful virgin maiden who got gangbanged and bukkaed by people who saw her beauty as a means of fulfilling their own selfish desires.

I'm not absolved from this shit, I just ate a box of Costo pizza and masturbated as means of curbing my hedonism and lack of discipline and looked in the mirror with absolute disgust, who am I to judge anyone. With that being said, you people make me fuc*ing sick. Disgraceful sons of bit*ches
 

MiguelHammond10

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You guys should take it easy on Him,even if you don't agree with Him , you can't say its Trash,though I disagree with Him but at some point he is making sense, we are all learning.
 
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maverick

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1. Environment
2. Decentralization (the main draw)
3. Scamming
4. No value creation. I disagree with the premise of the currency, not to say that FIAT is free from problems.
5. Hijacking of Alt coins
6. Deeper need for trust in the tech industry
7. The fundamental question of who should be able mine if true decentralization can't happen.

A few short points:
1. The carbon footprint problem is real. That's why proof of stake will be introduced. This will eliminate the need for GPUs, leading to a significant decrease of electricity usage. See:
Proof-of-stake - Wikipedia
Proof of Stake FAQ · ethereum/wiki Wiki · GitHub

2. Are you talking about the 51% problem here? Not sure what you mean otherwise. If you are talking about the 51% then proof of stake is built to counter that as well.

3. Scamming will always happen when new technologies emerge. People play systems; systems adapt. That has always been the way. We're at version 1 now, give it some time.

4. A dollar bill is not worth anything. You can argue and say that dollars are backed by oil (which is also a commodity btw) however what worth will oil have in the near future? What value does the dollar create then?
Good reference here: What Is Bitcoin's Elusive Intrinsic Value?

5. How is this different from 'normal' money?

6. This is a very general statement; not sure how this is relevant for our discussion here.

7. See proof of stake.
 

bettereveryday

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@MJ DeMarco

The thread has just turned into bashing my character.

It's really getting to cyber bullying. That is something I feel strongly about. I feel that a compassionate first approach is important to life.

I also do realize that anything you say on forum will be turned against you.

I started the thread off wrong. I should have used more blog posts and posed it as a question so people can come to the conclusion on their own.

I also shouldn't have used strong language.

I was also a minor victim in Mt. Gox scam and poker scams, even though I made minor amounts of money in poker.

I see the same patterns in the cryptos and wanted to give my view.

There are literally 5 major problems I see:

1. Environment
2. Decentralization (the main draw)
3. Scamming
4. No value creation. I disagree with the premise of the currency, not to say that FIAT is free from problems.
5. Hijacking of Alt coins
6. Deeper need for trust in the tech industry
7. The fundamental question of who should be able mine if true decentralization can't happen.

All of those points are considered non-issues to the community. Some of them must know more than me. Maybe all of them do and can answer those questions for their self.

Please delete or dump it to the landfill.

Best,

Your argument fu*king sucks.

Cryptocurrency inherently, in its very essence, is a positive force. It's beneficial for society, for us as a people.

The problem is, however, PEOPLE. People have tainted and will continue to soil the CryptoMarkets.

You have the vultures (Wall Street, the banks, govt) and the filthy disgusting hyenas ( the masses, the "crypto-enthusiasts") running to the markets like a crackhead does to a dope dealer when he's come up on $20.

Will people make money off this CryptoWave? Of course. Will people get rich off trading cryptocurrency? A very small percentage will. Will crypto-enthusiasts continue to criticize banks and the dollar and then trade cryptocurrency as means of making more of those very same dollars that they criticize? You can bet your life on it.

Will Cryptocurrency lead to any constructive societal change? Will it trump the dollar? Absolutely not.
 

bettereveryday

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A few short points:
1. The carbon footprint problem is real. That's why proof of stake will be introduced. This will eliminate the need for GPUs, leading to a significant decrease of electricity usage. See:
Proof-of-stake - Wikipedia
Proof of Stake FAQ · ethereum/wiki Wiki · GitHub

2. Are you talking about the 51% problem here? Not sure what you mean otherwise. If you are talking about the 51% then proof of stake is built to counter that as well.

3. Scamming will always happen when new technologies emerge. People play systems; systems adapt. That has always been the way. We're at version 1 now, give it some time.

4. A dollar bill is not worth anything. You can argue and say that dollars are backed by oil (which is also a commodity btw) however what worth will oil have in the near future? What value does the dollar create then?
Good reference here: What Is Bitcoin's Elusive Intrinsic Value?

5. How is this different from 'normal' money?

6. This is a very general statement; not sure how this is relevant for our discussion here.

7. See proof of stake.

No, a dollar bill is worth something.

All value comes from perception. People perceive the dollar having value because the govt says it does and because everyone believes it does, that's why we all f*cking use it.

Cryptocurrency is inherently worthless too. Tell me how cryptocurrency is worth anything other than the fact people believe it's worth something? Crypto is fiat just like the dollar

I could literally sh*t on my hand and use it as currency if I could get people to perceive it as having value
 
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maverick

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No, a dollar bill is worth something.

All value comes from perception. People perceive the dollar having value because the govt says it does and because everyone believes it does, that's why we all f*cking use it.

Cryptocurrency is inherently worthless too. Tell me how cryptocurrency is worth anything other than the fact people believe it's worth something? Crypto is fiat just like the dollar

I could literally sh*t on my hand and use it as currency if I could get people to perceive it as having value
Yes, we're saying the same thing with different words.
 

nordien1978

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Don't agree with your views about crypto currencies, but some points are valid.

There is a lot of projects that makes no sense how they are going to realize there ambitions or make any kind of revenue.
But with some due diligence and investigation you can find promising and viable projects that is developed on and seen in gitHub.
When i do invest it is from the F-U pot not something else.
And yes it is not regulated and the market cap is not the same as regular investing, that why whales can manipulate these markets.
I see it more like investing in startup in a new industry projects that has legs or more solid background then all the noise been generated by ICO's.

It is a learning experience but i see a future for this industry and want to continue to learn.

Note:
Also 3rd World Countries are not Internet deprived as they use a mobile internet as there avenue and growing fast the infrastructures as seen in Africa.
 

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OP, you lost all credibility when you made it a morality issue.

Sent from my VTR-L29 using Tapatalk
 
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As AI becomes more advanced, a rogue technologist can literally build a super computer network designed to topple the entire infrastructure without actively being involved in the attack.
This scenario is inline with the classic 'caveat'. I am still going over it. I do believe that some good will persevere with bitcoin and ethereum. Seperating all that hype and the reality. Thank you for the 'eight things links. Very interesting.
 

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For you guys who is against this for ethic reasons, you do understand not just Milton Friedman predicted the emergence of bitcoin in 1999, the founder of bitcoin also used Milton Friedman's framework to create it. Judged by the crazy price of, don't you think the free market is speaking its desires of how many people don't like the current fiat system we have been using?
 
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In addition to many of the things that have already been said as counterarguments, I will add some thoughts:


1) All cryptos are made off "computers" doing work which is already active energy rather utilizing the infinite potential of humans. This is inherently morally wrong and anti-entrepreneurship.

So, I imagine that you must be totally again robots, machines, or any type of automatization that does something that can be done by humans, right? This is like saying ships are inmoral because they run on energy instead of using people to row.

I would argue that, not only they are not inmoral and anti-entrepreneurship but just the opposite. It is true that there are a lot of scams, especially around ICOs, but have you stop to think the potential cryptos have to enable start-ups to obtain financing? How is that anti-entrepreneurship?

Also, have you thought of the transformational potential this technology has? I am particularly passionate about smart contracts, and among other benefits they have, their ability to reduce late payments. This is particularly beneficial for small companies, I know many cases of good solvent companies that went out of business because this problem and I believe this technology can prevent this, among many other things.

As for your argument of third world countries. Precisely many third world countries can be impacted very positively about cryptos, especially those with hyper inflation and whose currency is worth nothing. I put you another example: would you rather have bolivares or bitcoin? To me it is ano brainer. It is true that cryptos are very volatile and we are not at a stage in which they can be used as a stable payment method, but with time, it has the potential to become one and then, countries with unstable currencies and governments and with no advance payment system are the ones that have more to win. Imagine how that can impact the economies of those countries!!

5) the trust rule theory of cryptocurrencies is a dubious premise. It is also the fundamental premise. You need a 3rd party just like with Fiat. You need people in tech to manage everything and keep the system up. Now you need even more people keeping up your system.

What is the intrinsic value of any fiat currency anyway? I will tell you: NONE. iI is all about trust in the system and the ability to repay of the party that issued the currency. What inherently supports fiat currencies is the "economy" of that country and more importantly, the fact that the issuer (the Government) will not default. Never forget that countries not only can but have defaulted in the past.

One of the biggest arguments that I hear from people against cryptos is that they lack intrinsic value and hence they are worthless.
But, what does? Other than farms and some hard assets very few things do. Even gold, which is the value storage tool by excellence, lacks intrinsic value. Sure, you can do jewelry and has some limited industrial uses but this is not what gives gold the valuation it has. It is all about people and what they believe is valuable, just like with cryptos.

However, with all this being said, although I am super bullish on cryptos and I truly believe they are the future, I will recommend to use caution while investing, they are extremely volatile and investments are highly speculative, plus there are a lot of scams with ICOs so you have to be extra cautious about those. But as long as you are aware of the risks and comfortable with them: happy investing!

I remember when the internet was starting to popularize and companies started to sell thing over the internet. It was not uncommon to hear people saying things such as: The internet is full of scams, who would like to buy things there? putting my credit card information in the internet, are you crazy?
And look at us now...
 

MJ DeMarco

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I remember when the internet was starting to popularize and companies started to sell thing over the internet. It was not uncommon to hear people saying things such as: The internet is full of scams, who would like to buy things there? putting my credit card information in the internet, are you crazy?

Yup, I actually remember hearing that a few times as an early adopter.
 

jlwilliams

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I really appreciate the discussion. I'm not "in" crypto currency, but I'm fascinated by it and want to know more. The good and the bad all need to be laid bare.

I have on question about these negatives. How is it worse or even different than any other currency? I'm not trying to play cute or be argumentative, I sincerely want to hear other smart people's educated opinions. Cash gets stolen. Cash gets used by dope dealers and swindlers. It can be argued that some of the very originators of cash were trying to swindle people out of their labors with this fancy new technology that the turnip farmers didn't understand. The "it's favored by con men and money laundering schemes" argument doesn't wash for me because every honest endeavor from real estate to food service has been used for those reasons, yet they are at their base good businesses. The legitimate banking industry has its share of three card Monty style deception and a back home of honest business people, how is crypto currency any different?
 
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juan917

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“The boom is over”

What makes you say that? Market is at an all time high right now.

I really appreciate the discussion. I'm not "in" crypto currency, but I'm fascinated by it and want to know more. The good and the bad all need to be laid bare.

I have on question about these negatives. How is it worse or even different than any other currency? I'm not trying to play cute or be argumentative, I sincerely want to hear other smart people's educated opinions. Cash gets stolen. Cash gets used by dope dealers and swindlers. It can be argued that some of the very originators of cash were trying to swindle people out of their labors with this fancy new technology that the turnip farmers didn't understand. The "it's favored by con men and money laundering schemes" argument doesn't wash for me because every honest endeavor from real estate to food service has been used for those reasons, yet they are at their base good businesses. The legitimate banking industry has its share of three card Monty style deception and a back home of honest business people, how is crypto currency any different?

One thing that separates crypto is that every transaction is publicly recorded. If someone steals from you, you at least know what wallet ID your money is in. Whereas if you got cash stolen from you, you are screwed. It’s actually terrible if u want to do illegal transactions unless u use specific coins designed for privacy
 
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I think the big picture is being missed here.

Cryptocurrency is fundamentally about decentralization.

Decentralization is the overarching theme of innovation sweeping the world right now.

Decentralized, bottom up systems (like free markets) work more efficiently and are much better at self-correction than centralized systems (like governments).

Most of the big battles you see in the news right now (London vs. Uber, Catalonia vs. Spain, Britain vs. the EU) are really about decentralization versus centralization.

The powers that be will do and say anything to try and maintain their monopolies. But they will eventually fail. Because decentralization works.

And that's what's really exciting about cryptocurrencies.

PS. Stuck for business ideas? Want to catch the future instead of riding the past? Look more closely at opportunities to decentralize things.
 

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OP, you lost all credibility when you made it a morality issue.

Sent from my VTR-L29 using Tapatalk
OP should look into the petro-dollar

"Seriously you can make much more benefitting humanity rather than trying to be in on the next ICO, trade event spanned by news, or even longterm holding onto some Lololololol (electricity)."

as someone who has been getting laughed at since the beginning of 2013..lololololol. I could have made much more if I simply held all of my "electricity" rather than trying to change the world.
 

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"putting my credit card information in the internet, are you crazy?"

Well they are not entirely wrong, your credit card information alone with mine are probably being stolen and sold in a digital secondary market somewhere in mother Russia right now.
 
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TKDTyler

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Most of the big battles you see in the news right now (London vs. Uber, Catalonia vs. Spain, Britain vs. the EU) are really about decentralization versus centralization.
This +++++

Understanding what is driving people in mass this day and age is a skill. Without getting political, think what are people looking for by pushing away centralized government and oversight? More importantly, why are they doing it?

Emotional Investment.

The same reason many of us are on this forum and pursuing entrepreneurial endeavors. The feeling of freedom. To control their own destiny.

Translate that into crypto: how are people becoming emotional about it? Bitcoin and the crypto space has finally grown to an inflection point where emotions have come into play and people invest to satisfy these.

Guaranteed over Thanksgiving, there were tens of thousands of conversations about how bitcoin could possibly be $10,000. Fomo
Then you have those members of the families speaking to everybody about the amazing gains of 10x-100x. Instant freedom
People notice that it is similar to the dot-com boom and are much more informed these days. This could be my ticket out.

Emotions become sparked in minds because something that wasn't inherently achievable by normalized means become a feasible possibility.
Emotion will be the main driving force behind a large portion of fiat moving into the crypto space.
 

MJ DeMarco

I followed the science; all I found was money.
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The chance of a bitcoin crash is greater than 80%

Love how they use historical data based on an asset class that has existed for decades. Transferring that data to BTC is like predicting how the Model-Ts would affect the use of dirt roads using horse-and-buggy data from the 1800's.
 

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