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What People Won't Tell You About Crytpo Currency

Anything related to investing, including crypto
G

Guest92dX

Guest
The following argument is a moral, financial, and historical account of crytpocurrency.

Get up to speed by reading this:

Eight Things Cryptocurrency Enthusiasts Probably Won’t Tell You

Let's go deeper on why you shouldn't hop on the crypto bandwagon. Or, why you jump ship as soon as possible.

1) All cryptos are made off "computers" doing work which is already active energy rather utilizing the infinite potential of humans. This is inherently morally wrong and anti-entrepreneurship.

You should be scared of something that a guy in a 3rd world country could never start doing because his local library will never let him use the internet in that purpose.

FYI: it is entirely possible to base "mining" off of people in 3rd world countries or 1st world homeless picking up trash and trying to find stuff to sell.

Electricity mining and real world trash mining are both arbitrary.

The difference is that one mechanism is more sustainable and reduces the carbon footprint. The other method actually uses up electricity and catapults us to environmental disaster.

2) Every market built on trading or exchange has been taken over bots. Two major examples are: 1) Day Trading 2) Poker.

You're an idiot if you try and day trade now. Unless you're able to beat midstakes in poker you're an idiot for getting into the game because it's fast moving towards zero sum or GTO just like day trading.

Every zero sum system moves towards this end game.

Chess and Go are two other examples. Go is the most complex game in the history of humanity and has reached this point.

3) Everyone who says they've made a lot of money won't release information on those numbers.

The numbers I've seen when calculated from anyone who is not an institutional investor amount to much less than you could have actually made just doing something to benefit humanity.

Seriously you can make much more benefitting humanity rather than trying to be in on the next ICO, trade event spanned by news, or even longterm holding onto some Lololololol (electricity).

Yes, your coin is fundamentally electricity. It only becomes a "physical object" when it hits the register in the CPU.

You made millions trading or building applications? Why not openly state it so the large majority and will come in and throttle you? Why just try to sneak in laggards and buffoons who will lose money?

4) All cryptocurrencies are hackable. That alone should scare you.

5) the trust rule theory of cryptocurrencies is a dubious premise. It is also the fundamental premise. You need a 3rd party just like with Fiat. You need people in tech to manage everything and keep the system up. Now you need even more people keeping up your system.

6) The vast majority of people who use cryptos are shady. So if the trust principle is right then you're already F'd.

7) This next one is a question: do you understand how your physical crypto wallet is secured? How about your computer? Can you make upgrades? Have you ever heard of an STIG or baseline? If not, stop using crypto because you're a guppie in there with some sharks.

It's all cryptography and security. If you don't understand it then just stop. Like stop now.

8) The vast majority of money made off the new system will be from developing infrastructure and software for all crypto. Can you write software? Also, see #7.

9) If the handful of billionaires trying to save you and the rest of the world think cryptocurrencies are more useful as a FIAT and bank opportunity then you shouldn't be using it.

Note: the video doesn't cover everything these guys have said on it. It does give you a general consensus that it is A) a bank technology B) Not a currency C) better for information exchange D) More useful for withdrawing money from customers.

View: https://youtu.be/1sOC_1DPtrc


The infrastructure of Bitcoin is good to replace the monolithic systems of mainframes. However, mainframes haven't been replaced by commodity hardware and data centers because the hardware isn't as good as the legacy systems. Commodity hardware that needs to be scrubbed, changed, and sanitized like yearly or monthly isn't good for the financial industry where you need to keep transactions for decades. It's not good for outages. It's not good because the hardware fails and over heats all the time.

Mainframes last decades. Crypto ledgers last decades. Commodity hardware does not.

However, I would immediately switch from any bank that adopted crypto ledgers because there would be a HUGE financial incentive for the unscrupulous to attack the distributed ledger.

Mainframe or not. Commodity hardware or not.

I would want an entire organization that's paid to literally keep making updates like the internet. I would also want them paid 1000x times what people are paid to keep the internet going.

10) If everything I've said hasn't been enough information to actually educate you, you should listen to this:

As AI becomes more advanced, a rogue technologist can literally build a super computer network designed to topple the entire infrastructure without actively being involved in the attack.

There are already machines that can penetrate and upload viruses to other hardened supercomputers. They'll only get better at it. This is part of the reason why Elon Musk and other notable people involved in the tech sector caution against the adoption of AI.

If you add that to commodity hardware then it's a disaster.

Please read the background section of this:

AlphaGo versus Lee Sedol - Wikipedia

All done on commodity hardware. So, all I have to do is wait until 2020 or 2022, in the next major PC upgrade cycles, and collect a few thousand donated PCs to the Goodwill. Then I can topple Cryptocurrency. Or I can circumvent the Goodwill and collect decent computers from the library that are off cycle with 2012 computational abilities that are already in a network.

It's not that simple. FYI. You need some specialized knowledge.

If there is a real financial incentive then it will happen.

Don't think so?

Look at the Experian crisis!

The difference is that no one will be able to protect you.

11) Anonymity and non-transaction reversal is a bad thing.

Are you cool with psuedo and even relative anonymity with your bank? How about your customer? How about the guy who is paying you?

12) Crypto isn't as HUGE as you think. The boom is over.

The people publishing tax returns are institutional investors and accredited investors. They're already using trading algorithms. When the dumb guys go broke the system goes belly up because it's not based on FIAT and has no insurance.

The other guys are shady people in Asia trying to make a quick buck.

Bottom line:

It's morally wrong.
It's financially immoral.
It's polluted with criminals.
It's environmentally irresponsible and immoral.
It's going to be polluted with AI and bots soon.
Technological advancement is its main weakness.
Its moral assumptions are it's main weakness.
It relies on FIAT.
Regulation won't make the system better. Regulation empowers money laundering. I didn't get into it, but you should see #11

You should be wary of the new shiny thing you hear about.

You've been educated.

Don't lose massive amounts of money in the "electricity" rush. That's what happened in the gold Rush.

13) I am rich if I start the block chain and mining system for "electricity" = Ponzi scheme.

Mining for precious metals is also a similar albeit different scheme where I need to overcome massive regulations then pay millions to buy research. After that, I need to pay millions to buy the land rights. After that, I need to pay millions to speculate and millions more to hire.

Mining in the non-precious metals sector is much different and the same goes for non-metallics. You can usually start those operations for like $70k or something or less.

Note: I'm not talking about gold as the main target. This follows for most precious metals.
 
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G

Guest92dX

Guest
I didn't mean to post this on the inside.

This belongs on the outside so people don't get taken advantage of.
 

JAJT

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I disagree with so much of what you said and the reasons behind them that I don't think I have the time or patience to break it down.

So all I'll say is you have an "interesting" viewpoint of the world and I hope it serves you well.

For myself, I have vastly different ideas regarding matters of moral, ethical, criminal, environmental, technological and financial viewpoints.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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#landfill

I disagree.

I'm someone who is interested in pros/cons of cryptocurrency as I consider myself in the investigation and learning stage.

That means I'm interested in hearing BOTH sides, naysayers and fanatics alike.

I'll sort through the information/opinion and form my own conclusions.

I didn't mean to post this on the inside.

Moved outside.
 

LeoistheSun

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I agree with some of this. I wonder if they have bots trading crypto now... im sure they do!

it is entirely possible to base "mining" off of people in 3rd world countries or 1st world homeless picking up trash and trying to find stuff to sell.

I love this so much! How do we do this?? (Trash solution)

**I believe that until access to the internet becomes a fundamental right for all humans, the premise of digital currency is flawed** <-- If the ISP can block access because they can, then this proves my point.
 
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Last edited:
G

Guest92dX

Guest
Everything except the last part about starting physical mines is based on facts about cryptography and the financial system.

The part about physical mines is based on the knowledge I have about the prospecting industry where consultants charge hundreds of thousands if not millions for selling deposits.

Add a 3rd world country in with corruption and the rest is true.

How is it garbage?

Day Trading and poker are ruled by algorithms and bots.

If you don't know STIGs then you're a sitting duck in the crypto ledger.

If you have a hardware wallet which everyone suggests you can't harden those. They're able to be compromised.

Supercomputing is real.

It is possible to insert false coins.

The shady schemes are all too real.

Every trading scheme heads to zero sum.

You are able to have the ledger. There's no such thing as full proof cryptography.

Data is only electricity until it hits the CPU register.

You could also base "mining" off of something other than electricity.

Crypto isn't huge. There was like $2B raised on the markets recently. $2B doesn't match the $5.3T traded daily in currencies.

It is possible to have near full anonymity in cryptocurrencies. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done.

Electricity usage skyrockets with mining operations. Miners have like $30k electric bills or higher. They use the same amount of electricity as businesses and don't benefit anyone but their self.

There is and will be a greater impact on the environment.

To be fair:

There are some egotistical parts to the OP. I was angry reading the Crypto thread on the inside and outside because people aren't telling you the other half.
 
G

Guest92dX

Guest
No, I'm not mad because I didn't miss an opportunity. There isn't one.

Edit: I'm mad because people who aren't super technical are being told they can just start up in the industry without knowing anything about technology. DoD STIGs, Linux Baselines, How to secure hardware, how to set up a neural network bot to algo trade, how to start a coin, why mining destroys the environment.


Bots and algo traders have been around since the first exchanges have started.

Major vulnerabilities have been exposed.

I also got caught up in the poker gold Rush, which is essentially what this is. I made some money, but I didn't make life changing money.

People are touting this as a way of life changing money. It's not.

Crypto will be life changing money if FIAT banks adopt the ledger to switch to lower cost commodity hardware.

Mainframes need to be replaced, but there aren't good alternatives.

Also, if you don't think massive scale vulnerabilities are possible then do research on that.

Do you know and read the code reviews going into extensions of currencies? I know I don't. I don't trust it either because there is too much financial incentive otherwise.

It's like hey: here's the entire financial history of the world on a silver platter. Everyone who doesn't mask their self is trackable too. Dig in. Sure hope no one finds a critical vulnerability. Let's link it with FIAT currency too so they can anonymously move the currency into a country with low restrictions and low to no financial reviews.
 
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G

Guest92dX

Guest
You're investing in the cryptography industry but you can't crack? That's why I'm against the movement.

You're not only investing. You're also using the technology and trusting others who have views you may not agree with. Like what they do may not be objectionably wrong even though others might say yes.

The definition of right and wrong isn't even consistent among those in the infoSec industry.
 

Azure

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I got stuck on your first point because it is a flawed premise that people in developed countries are at an advantage in crypto mining.

I live in a major metropolitan world class developed city(Toronto) and can count many, many underdeveloped nations with lower electricity rates. Hell, a rural farmer in China pays less than I do per mw.
 

Fox

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You should be scared of something that a guy in a 3rd world country could never start doing because his local library will never let him use the internet in that purpose.

What?

We can't start anything new because every third world countries can't do it too???

So that rules out space exploration, advanced science, and dozens (if not millions) of other technical advances.

Maybe we should start handing out participation ribbons instead of getting too far ahead of other countries.
 
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Ascension

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1) All cryptos are made off "computers" doing work which is already active energy rather utilizing the infinite potential of humans. This is inherently morally wrong and anti-entrepreneurship.

There's a bunch of work being done on computers, not the least of which this forum. So should we stop every advancement that people in third world countries don't have access to or don't profit from immediately?
How will those tools ever become widely available if we don't start somewhere?
Besides, I somehow doubt that most people without internet access have access to the current banking system either

2) Every market built on trading or exchange has been taken over bots. Two major examples are: 1) Day Trading 2) Poker.

I fully agree with you on the poker and day trading part. But day trading not being profitable for humans is an argument against trying to day trade but not against the companies being traded. That way it isn't an argument against cryptocurrency itself.
Furthermore, long-term investments can still be very much worthwhile. If you are informed enough to make a decision whether or not there is value in a certain cryptocurrency it becomes less of a gamble and more of a +ev decision.

4) All cryptocurrencies are hackable. That alone should scare you.

So are all banking systems. Also, people can steal money from under your mattress, burn down your house or steal your car. Which effort is greater is not for me to decide.

6) The vast majority of people who use cryptos are shady. So if the trust principle is right then you're already F'd.

I would be interested in the numbers you got on the shadiness of people using cryptocurrencies. I believe that there were a bunch of forum members stepping forward telling about their or their customers' reasons for using cryptos in legitimate ways. Also, the whole point of the blockchain is that the network needs to agree on a transaction for it to go through, removing trust as much as possible.

For clarification, I in no way intend to say that cryptos are totally safe, that nothing can happen to them or that you should blindly throw your money at them. Your reasoning against cryptocurrencies and/or the people who invest in them just seemed a little odd to me and didn't quite match up.
 
G

Guest92dX

Guest
The problem is how the electricity is used, not the cost of electricity.

If you consider having a circuit board do math as actual work then you're right. If you have a problem with circuit boards doing math that benefits no one except the miner and leaves an astronomical footprint then you're right.

It's a moral and ethical question, not a money question.

Lots of mining is done in less developed countries with lower environmental restrictions. The electricity usage is the same for all mining in the early stages. If they make it easier then less electricity. If it's harder then it's more electricity.

The problem is that the footprint is tied to the difficulty to hit the slot machine algorithm for mining.

As far as I know, no one is creating a system that adds value to the world.

So basically if I can afford electricity, internet, specialized machinery etc then I am considered doing math.

Let's say you move it with ethereum to a system where everyone contributes to mining.

Then I need technology still.

Why can't you just setup technology to measure recycling output as mining? It's the same premise in a physical form. It's also much more metered and no one would gold Rush plastic and cans unless they became work $7k a pop like Bitcoin.

If that happened we'd have an unprecedented arena of growth in the world. People would be doing more good for the planet in general and the tech would be more accessible and act as a filter for the less scrupulous types.
 

Ascension

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If you consider having a circuit board do math as actual work then you're right. If you have a problem with circuit boards doing math that benefits no one except the miner and leaves an astronomical footprint then you're right.

But there is work done, they are processing and confirming the transactions
 
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G

Guest92dX

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If it's an argument against trying to day trade. It's an argument against Crypto trading.

Non FIAT backing is also an argument against long term holding.

People seem to think I've said Cryptocurrency is bad.

It's not.

Crypto is an opportunity for banks not regular people.

The gold Rush for it is bad and you thinking you'll get rich from it is bad.

Why? If you aren't InfoSec you really aren't capable of doing code reviews and building safe products. Multiple exchanges have even been compromised.

It's like saying: I'll get rich off of poker but you have never ever read a theory book.

That's what ICOs are like except worse because it spans multiple industries now. That's what trading is like. You don't know infoSec but you're going to do that?

You don't know infoSec, but you're going to ride the train up and trust someone else?

Leaping before being financially educated about factors is against the MF book.

You need financial and industry knowledge. I don't claim to have extensive InfoSec knowledge. I just know I wouldn't jump on that bandwagon. I wouldn't waste a cent on it.

If all money becomes crypto. Just Port all your money to crypto and make you have some people protecting it. Make sure the system is too big to fail and you're not a small financial dog.
 

LeoistheSun

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The problem is how the electricity is used, not the cost of electricity.

If you consider having a circuit board do math as actual work then you're right. If you have a problem with circuit boards doing math that benefits no one except the miner and leaves an astronomical footprint then you're right.

It's a moral and ethical question, not a money question.

Lots of mining is done in less developed countries with lower environmental restrictions. The electricity usage is the same for all mining in the early stages. If they make it easier then less electricity. If it's harder then it's more electricity.

The problem is that the footprint is tied to the difficulty to hit the slot machine algorithm for mining.

As far as I know, no one is creating a system that adds value to the world.

So basically if I can afford electricity, internet, specialized machinery etc then I am considered doing math.

Let's say you move it with ethereum to a system where everyone contributes to mining.

Then I need technology still.

Why can't you just setup technology to measure recycling output as mining? It's the same premise in a physical form. It's also much more metered and no one would gold Rush plastic and cans unless they became work $7k a pop like Bitcoin.

If that happened we'd have an unprecedented arena of growth in the world. People would be doing more good for the planet in general and the tech would be more accessible and act as a filter for the less scrupulous types.
Greed.

Nobody does anything unless it affects them.

The ones making the real coin are the exchanges & other services: Money laundering (they call it something else), markets, btc faucets, gambling services... etc.
 

Waspy

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I am by no means a crypto fanatic, and in fact, have never even held any sums of money in crypto.

But even I can see that many of your points are utter nonsense, or misinformed.

All crypto is hackable? I can tell you now, the bank account with majority of my liquid cash in it is FAR easier to hack than a bitcoin wallet.

Majority of people who use crypto are shady? Shall we avoid massively sweeping, irrelevant points? I could say the majority of people who use the internet are shady, and yet here I am... typing an irrelevant point on it.

I think the REAL bottom line, is educate yourself first, then invest if it suits your portfolio. Always be wary of hype.
 
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Joe Cassandra

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The reason no one here believes anything you wrote is because you post ZERO proof of any of your claims.

"The vast majority of people who use cryptocurrencies are shady"...

Why? Because of the "darknet?" You heard that from someone else, who heard it from somewhere else...who read it on some guys blog who lives in his mom's basement and actually used Silk Road to off someone.

There is no proof of that statement.

"All cryptos can get hacked"

Yeah, and so can the whole freakin' US government...DNC was hacked by Russia, Target's been hacked, my TV provider, Comcast was just hacked, Wells Fargo (my bank) has leaked tens of thousands of documents "on accident."

Here's a list of major companies that have been hacked: These Were The Biggest Victims of Recent Hacks

Let's all live off the grid...

One thing I learned since writing copy for a living...no one will change their mind with stupid broad statements like "The vast majority of money made off the new system will be from developing infrastructure and software for all crypto."

Yeah...proof?
 

MidwestLandlord

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I'm all for a rational discussion about crypto, as I've been learning all I can about it.

But this whole thing just reads as:

1) Crypto currency is bad because of the effects on the third world?

2) Crypto currency is bad because of the carbon footprint of the electricity?

3) Crypto currency is bad because we could be contributing to the greater good and improving recycling tech?

4) Crypto currency is bad because only financial institutions and accredited investors will benefit from it? (great barrier to entry, that accredited investor thing)

Am I missing something besides the typical cliche "for the greater good" argument?
 
G

Guest92dX

Guest
Last thing I'll say:

The system is based on the majority of people being upstanding individuals. That is not a sweeping or irrelevant point.

Maybe an InfoSec person with cryptography, encryption, supercomputing, networking knowledge can chime in.
 
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fhs8

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Crypto isn't huge. There was like $2B raised on the markets recently. $2B doesn't match the $5.3T traded daily in currencies.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Why would you compare the amount of fiat currency traded daily to the amount of money raised in cryptocurrency startups? Those two things are completely different.
 
G

Guest92dX

Guest
Well, I'm not going to invest in penny stock ICOs or think I can out trade a bot. I also won't think I'll build the next secure exchange or coin based application.

Only talking about myself here in this.

I hope all of you become successful millionaires or billionaires off it. I'll have to miss out on the coin rush.

#coinfoil
 
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C-Jay

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Yes, your coin is fundamentally electricity. It only becomes a "physical object" when it hits the register in the CPU.

This is, simply, not true.

Mining is done via the leverage of processing power attempting algorithms/potential solutions to the block that has just been released (this is an extremely simplistic explanation, but it works for the point I am making). Obviously, the more powerful the computer, the faster the output, the more likely it is to get the "ding".

Just because most heavy-duty computers are harnessing electricity to operate, does not at all make them one in the same. If these computers were weaker, it would just take longer to get a hit. In fact, 25 years from now computers may be being almost universally powered by renewable energy.

Saying crypto =/= electricity sounds like the opinion of one blog post explaining why mining is no longer worthwhile given potential energy costs (which is true, incidentally).
 

C-Jay

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Well, I'm not going to invest in penny stock ICOs or think I can out trade a bot. I also won't think I'll build the next secure exchange or coin based application.

Only talking about myself here in this.

I hope all of you become successful millionaires or billionaires off it. I'll have to miss out on the coin rush.

#coinfoil

Trading is just one simple methodology for investing in crypto. Most people are terrible traders, myself included.

Bots are present in major exchanges for conventional stocks and have been for years.

I don't understand what these facts have to do with the industry/technology itself. Nobody is denying it's a risky business. It absolutely is risk-ridden, but it's quite a stretch to try and turn that into some existential moral crisis. I don't see it.
 
G

Guest92dX

Guest
This is, simply, not true.

Mining is done via the leverage of processing power attempting algorithms/potential solutions to the block that has just been released (this is an extremely simplistic explanation, but it works for the point I am making). Obviously, the more powerful the computer, the faster the output, the more likely it is to get the "ding".

Just because most heavy-duty computers are harnessing electricity to operate, does not at all make them one in the same. If these computers were weaker, it would just take longer to get a hit. In fact, 25 years from now computers may be being almost universally powered by renewable energy.

Saying crypto =/= electricity sounds like the opinion of one blog post explaining why mining is no longer worthwhile given potential energy costs (which is true, incidentally).

Thank you for not making a statement which feels like an attack against my character.

You're right. However since mining has consolidated the players left are generally limited by electricity availability and not their computing power.

After like 1k CPUs of commodity hardware like what Facebook, Google, etc run off of it becomes powerful enough to calculate at the speed necessary. The limitations are heat dissipation/cooling and electricity availability.

When the coin is mined from the processing it is nothing until it hits storage, which is why I have a problem.

If the calculation never hits the register it's just dissipated electricity.

Gets destroyed from a damaged hard drive then it's just dissipated electricity.

I'm done for real this time. I'll just watch and see if I can learn something.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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I'll just watch and see if I can learn something.

My thoughts exactly -- we're all trying to learn something. Separating fact from fiction is an exercise in itself.
 

Alxander

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4) All cryptocurrencies are hackable. That alone should scare you.

What do you mean? Everything is hackable, and crypto is in the current state, non-hackable as long as it's truly decentralized
5) the trust rule theory of cryptocurrencies is a dubious premise. It is also the fundamental premise. You need a 3rd party just like with Fiat. You need people in tech to manage everything and keep the system up. Now you need even more people keeping up your system.
Even though there are still centralized exchanges etc., there are already decentralized exchanges popping up, if you mean that.
The only thing that has to be build is the platform itself, the people keep the system up.

It's true that Proof of Work is very inefficient energy wise, but there are better technologies like dBFT (delegated Byzantine Fault Tolerance) that for example NEO already uses.

Personally I'm all in Request Network, it reduces the transaction costs in comparison to PayPal significantly and it has features like that you can pay employees a lot more than just once a month and it tries to automate invoicing and stuff. Why isn't that an awesome thing?
The ICO was just a month ago and it raised 35m in 3 days.

I don't want corrupt banks to just use crypto internally, that's dumb, we don't need the banks soon enough.

I'm mad because people who aren't super technical are being told they can just start up in the industry without knowing anything about technology. DoD STIGs, Linux Baselines, How to secure hardware, how to set up a neural network bot to algo trade, how to start a coin, why mining destroys the environment.

If you dont know STIG and don't know how to crack you can't invest in it?
Why the hell do you have to know something about neural networks? Or that you do that instead of daytrading yourself?

Unless you say that towards the people who build the coins, but it sounds like you are rambling at times and you don't know some things that already exists what you.

Yeah, I hate shady ICO's too, celebrities saying to invest in ICO's etc but you're basically bashing the early internet. Current crypto is far from perfect but it has so much potential.
 

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