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What People Won't Tell You About Crytpo Currency

Discussion in 'Investing and Trading' started by EasternCrane, Nov 14, 2017 at 9:55 AM.

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  1. C-Jay
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    C-Jay Audeamus Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    This is, simply, not true.

    Mining is done via the leverage of processing power attempting algorithms/potential solutions to the block that has just been released (this is an extremely simplistic explanation, but it works for the point I am making). Obviously, the more powerful the computer, the faster the output, the more likely it is to get the "ding".

    Just because most heavy-duty computers are harnessing electricity to operate, does not at all make them one in the same. If these computers were weaker, it would just take longer to get a hit. In fact, 25 years from now computers may be being almost universally powered by renewable energy.

    Saying crypto =/= electricity sounds like the opinion of one blog post explaining why mining is no longer worthwhile given potential energy costs (which is true, incidentally).
     
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  2. C-Jay
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    C-Jay Audeamus Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    Trading is just one simple methodology for investing in crypto. Most people are terrible traders, myself included.

    Bots are present in major exchanges for conventional stocks and have been for years.

    I don't understand what these facts have to do with the industry/technology itself. Nobody is denying it's a risky business. It absolutely is risk-ridden, but it's quite a stretch to try and turn that into some existential moral crisis. I don't see it.
     
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  3. EasternCrane
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    EasternCrane Sit in the gap not the choice Read Millionaire Fastlane FASTLANE INSIDER

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    Thank you for not making a statement which feels like an attack against my character.

    You're right. However since mining has consolidated the players left are generally limited by electricity availability and not their computing power.

    After like 1k CPUs of commodity hardware like what Facebook, Google, etc run off of it becomes powerful enough to calculate at the speed necessary. The limitations are heat dissipation/cooling and electricity availability.

    When the coin is mined from the processing it is nothing until it hits storage, which is why I have a problem.

    If the calculation never hits the register it's just dissipated electricity.

    Gets destroyed from a damaged hard drive then it's just dissipated electricity.

    I'm done for real this time. I'll just watch and see if I can learn something.
     
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  4. MJ DeMarco
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    MJ DeMarco Raving Lunatic Staff Member Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    My thoughts exactly -- we're all trying to learn something. Separating fact from fiction is an exercise in itself.
     
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  5. Alxander
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    Alxander Bronze Contributor I've Read UNSCRIPTED Speedway Pass

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    4) All cryptocurrencies are hackable. That alone should scare you.

    What do you mean? Everything is hackable, and crypto is in the current state, non-hackable as long as it's truly decentralized
    5) the trust rule theory of cryptocurrencies is a dubious premise. It is also the fundamental premise. You need a 3rd party just like with Fiat. You need people in tech to manage everything and keep the system up. Now you need even more people keeping up your system.
    Even though there are still centralized exchanges etc., there are already decentralized exchanges popping up, if you mean that.
    The only thing that has to be build is the platform itself, the people keep the system up.

    It's true that Proof of Work is very inefficient energy wise, but there are better technologies like dBFT (delegated Byzantine Fault Tolerance) that for example NEO already uses.

    Personally I'm all in Request Network, it reduces the transaction costs in comparison to PayPal significantly and it has features like that you can pay employees a lot more than just once a month and it tries to automate invoicing and stuff. Why isn't that an awesome thing?
    The ICO was just a month ago and it raised 35m in 3 days.

    I don't want corrupt banks to just use crypto internally, that's dumb, we don't need the banks soon enough.

    I'm mad because people who aren't super technical are being told they can just start up in the industry without knowing anything about technology. DoD STIGs, Linux Baselines, How to secure hardware, how to set up a neural network bot to algo trade, how to start a coin, why mining destroys the environment.

    If you dont know STIG and don't know how to crack you can't invest in it?
    Why the hell do you have to know something about neural networks? Or that you do that instead of daytrading yourself?

    Unless you say that towards the people who build the coins, but it sounds like you are rambling at times and you don't know some things that already exists what you.

    Yeah, I hate shady ICO's too, celebrities saying to invest in ICO's etc but you're basically bashing the early internet. Current crypto is far from perfect but it has so much potential.
     
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  6. socaldude
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    socaldude Gold Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass

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    To understand cryptocurrency you have to reason off first principles into more complex insights.

    So far I haven't seen anybody use this method of investigation(to prove or disprove).

    You have to understand what "money" is. What makes something valuable? Why do people adopt something? What makes something a sustainable currency? why do currencies fail? Does money have to be centralized and have the stamp of approval from a government?

    This is where i'm starting out. I know nothing about cryptocurrencies but I know If I want to understand it I have to start there with the basics.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 2:50 PM
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  7. EasternCrane
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    Alt coins are not safe. Ethereum and Bitcoin are (relatively).

    Choosing ASICs for Sia – Sia Blog

    Not only that: who can just buy an ASIC?

    What's cool about dissipating electricity and ruining the environment.

    The world global carbon footprint or US footprint went up for the first time this year. I didn't hear their reasons, but if you're using $30k of U.S. electricity PER BLOCK or even $5k that's literally like 60 homes and 10 homes repsectively, per block you mine.

    So mine up the end of the world dissipating electricity instead of using the technology in the real world. Literally having a coin based on upcycling and recycling would be true decentralization.

    If you don't give the power to recycling centers then no one can literally own the blockchain. Also having 1000s of people going around and cleaning up cities is amazing.

    The article shows more of what I'm talking about:

    If I build an ASIC or GPU super center that's faster and more efficient then I win.

    Where there is an incentive it's reality.

    Taking over mining centers to launch attacks is also a very real issue. If they have a mission rather than a financial incentive.

    Not everyone is greedy or even out to make money. In fact, many people in InfoSec think otherwise.
     
  8. CPisHere
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    CPisHere Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    LOL, cryptocurrency is immoral.

    Centralized banks and monetary policy are immoral. But even then - owning US Dollars is not. Digital currency? Just no.
     
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  9. JScott
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    I haven't read the rest of the responses, built I'll bite...

    I'll ignore the phrase "inherently morally wrong," as I disagree that such a thing even exists. Likewise with "infinite potential of humans."

    But, to the point about computers doing all the work, how is this different than a computer program that uses algorithms to create art? Is computer generated art morally wrong?

    Again, I'll ignore the part about beating mid-stakes poker (I can do that, as can many people I know)...

    Two things to refute your assertion here:

    1. To the point about it *moving towards* zero sum, that sounds like you agree it's not currently zero sum and that there is still room for a knowledgeable trader to make money. So, your argument is more about why it won't be smart to trade at some point in the future, not that we shouldn't be trading now; and

    2. The fact that it's still possible for amateur traders to purchase coins at significant discounts to market value (pre-sale, pre-ICO and equity purchases) means that even at zero-sum trading, these investors can have a statistical advantage.

    I've provided detailed numbers to others people on this forum who have asked, and would provide numbers to you if I thought it would change your thinking.

    As for benefiting humanity, if I take the money I earn from investing in crypto and use that to benefit humanity, how is that better or worse than if I "did something to benefit humanity" directly? The outcome is exactly the same -- humanity is benefited.

    You do realize that 1s and 0s in physical memory are simply electric potentials (voltages) at the output of a flip flop, right? In other words, even when the data is in a register, it's just a voltage (i.e., electricity). If you're going to make technical arguments, it helps to understand technology.

    Given the public key encryption methods used to store crypto, it's MUCH less hackable than a bank account or other common types of data. In this regard, crypto is safer than fiat.

    Not sure what your argument is here, so I won't bother to address it.

    Actually 96.3% of crypto users are upstanding citizens with no criminal record.

    Btw, your opening the door to making unsupported assertions makes this whole thing a lot easier...thank you.

    Yes to all those things. And most of my friends would also say yes.

    That said, I don't know how a carburetor works...should I stop driving my car?

    Also, I have an electrical engineering degree, but have no idea how my analog TV antenna works...should I stop watching TV?

    Yes, I can write software.

    Though I'm not sure how that's relevant. Most money made from restaurants is from cooking and serving food...neither of which I'm very good at. Does that mean I shouldn't invest in a restaurant if I believe it's a good investment?

    Huh?

    As someone who above didn't understand how a computer register works, I'm fairly confident you have nowhere near the skill to topple cryptocurrency. In fact, based on some of the claims you've made here, I'm not sure you can topple the two-brick wide Lego tower my son is building next to me.

    But, if at some point in the future you are successful at "toppling cryptocurrency," we can continue this discussion...

    This is exactly how cash and barter have worked for millennia. When someone pays me in cash, I don't necessarily know anything about them and once they walk out the door, there is no transaction reversal mechanism...

    Are you sure you're really thinking these arguments through? That was a really, really bad one...

    And yet I'm still making money. Either you're wrong, or... Well, I'm still making money. So, there's really only one option...you're wrong.

    I disagree with that stuff. And given that everything above is simply your opinion, disagreeing is about the most I can do...

    Huh?
     
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  10. EasternCrane
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    1. Art is not like money. That's a bad comparison.

    2. You admit the skill argument is right and change the response based on semantics rather than intent. You know the intent. You know you are not most people just jumping in. You most likely played poker before its consolidation.

    Also, kudos to you because the game is hard. You're a smart guy.

    3. You've put me in a hard position there. That's a fair statement. That part is just my opinion. That has been my experience.

    I'm open to persuasion. I'm not close minded.

    I just know how perceived "easy" money attracts people.

    4. Your second argument is just saying that the ends justify the means. Literally, you're saying the way you achieve something doesn't matter at all. That's a valid moral viewpoint.

    That doesn't stop my argument from being valid as well.

    5. I do understand that it's still fundamentally electricity. However, it really has no usage until it reaches storage.

    I'll retract that argument as it is minor and useless.

    The main point is that it is Carbon Footprint is increasing from it.

    I've never heard of renewable energy powered mining centers. If that's true then I take my point back.

    6. I'll give you the next point about it being safer than FIAT because I didn't state it accurately.

    My argument was as adoption increases so does the probability of a critical vulnerability because financial incentives increase motivation.

    With the rise of Alt coins you and tons of ICOs you have huge issues of money being pumped out of the system.

    See the blogpost I pointed that talks about the Sia coin.

    7. I would like proof that 96.3% of crypto users are upstanding.

    Also, I would like proof that 96.3% of crypto users = 96.3% of miners and creators in the ecosystem are upstanding.

    My argument is about all three. You cannot cherry pick your points.

    8. There is a huge difference between your car and your bank account/investment. It's a much bigger difference.

    So, would you agree that you should invest with a financial planner without knowing how to read and interpret their offerings?

    You're investing in the technology and use itself, the currency. You are not investing in anything else.

    It's a perfectly fair argument to say you should know how to do due diligence on that offering.

    9. Your point about the restaurants is actually proof of what I'm saying. Most restaurants and bars started by people who never worked in one fail spectacularly. Survival and growth goes up as experience does.

    The argument you want to make is that you don't need to know the theory that makes up the technology to succeed in it.

    This may be true, but the analogy you gave is only one that proves my point.

    10. You sound angry that I'm saying there are flaws in the technology and that a worst case scenario is likely on the new currencies.

    You do not need to attack me as person. I haven't done that to you.

    No, I cannot build a network of GPUs to own the side currencies and topple them. However, saying I can't do it doesn't mean it's impossible. It also doesn't mean its hard.

    Costly doesn't mean hard.

    Here's the thing: you're using my "exact" wording once again to skip the meaning.

    11. You have a fair point about using cash in places. That's fine. My arguments have been thought out though.

    If I'm not mistaken China put a ban on using the currencies and making ICOs because of scamming issues.

    12. You're making money, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong about the usage of those currencies.

    You're saying the only possibility is that I'm wrong about every impact and consequence because you're making money.

    For someone indicting my logic, I'm glad you're not taking it too serious.

    Kudos. Enjoy your money.

    13. My last point is about the numerous pop ups of the ICOs. Sounds like a bubble coming. Hey, don't get me wrong.

    We're looking at this from different points of view.

    If money made justifies it for you then so be it. I'm not an outcome based person because it leads to many slippery slopes.

    I'm not even entirely means based in my logic about it.
     
  11. EasternCrane
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    EasternCrane Sit in the gap not the choice Read Millionaire Fastlane FASTLANE INSIDER

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    @MJ DeMarco

    The thread has just turned into bashing my character.

    It's really getting to cyber bullying. That is something I feel strongly about. I feel that a compassionate first approach is important to life.

    I also do realize that anything you say on forum will be turned against you.

    I started the thread off wrong. I should have used more blog posts and posed it as a question so people can come to the conclusion on their own.

    I also shouldn't have used strong language.

    I was also a minor victim in Mt. Gox scam and poker scams, even though I made minor amounts of money in poker.

    I see the same patterns in the cryptos and wanted to give my view.

    There are literally 5 major problems I see:

    1. Environment
    2. Decentralization (the main draw)
    3. Scamming
    4. No value creation. I disagree with the premise of the currency, not to say that FIAT is free from problems.
    5. Hijacking of Alt coins
    6. Deeper need for trust in the tech industry
    7. The fundamental question of who should be able mine if true decentralization can't happen.

    All of those points are considered non-issues to the community. Some of them must know more than me. Maybe all of them do and can answer those questions for their self.

    Please delete or dump it to the landfill.

    Best,
     
  12. MJ DeMarco
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    MJ DeMarco Raving Lunatic Staff Member Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    Sorry, but I'm not seeing that. I see people countering your arguments.

    I don't believe the thread deserves to be deleted or needs to go to the landfill.

    It is educational and will help people form an opinion, either one that mimics yours or the other side, or somewhere in between. That's why we're here.
     
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  13. JScott
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    I never said art was like money. You said that if computers create something without the involvement of humans, that is inherently bad. I gave you an example of something else that computers do without the involvement of humans and asked if that's also inherently bad.

    If it's not, then your original argument doesn't hold water.

    Now, if your original argument is that if computers create money without the involvement of humans, THAT is inherently bad, then that's a different argument. Would you like to change your argument to that?

    Yes, I am a smart guy. As are many of the people on this forum. And yet you are making a blanket statement that they can't succeed at this.

    If I can do it, why can't many/most others here on this forum?

    If your contention is that *some* people can't succeed with crypto, again, that's a different argument. I won't contest that. In any endeavor, some people will fail. And smart people generally have a better shot of being successful. This is not limited to the crypto space.

    Based on this sentence, I'm pretty sure we disagree on the definition of "literally"...

    Using that logic, you do realize the carbon footprint increased by you starting this thread, right? Does that make you as "inherently immoral" as crypto? Why or why not?

    You can take your point back (though the carbon has already been released by it):

    Crypto-mining with renewable energy: the solution for Blockchain's carbon footprint

    I assume you have this exact same issue with every digital asset of value? Why are you singling out crypto?

    You seem to miss the irony. You made a claim without any proof...and then demanded proof about my sarcastic response...

    You provide proof that "the vast majority or crypto users are shady," and then I'll provide proof that 96.3% are not.

    You go first...

    But, you didn't say that. You said that people should stay away from crypto. In fact, that's been your entire rant.

    Are you're now saying that people shouldn't stay away, they should just do their due diligence?

    I'm angry that you are making ridiculous statements without any support for those statements.

    Please provide some data to support your assertion that, "a worst case scenario is likely on the new currencies"...

    You're not saying that there's a chance of something bad happening. You're saying that we should take THE WORST POSSIBLE SCENARIO and that scenario IS LIKELY to happen. The worst possible scenario is probably something like WW3 breaking out. Is that the likely outcome here?

    If you're going to continue to be hyperbolic without data to support your assertion, then I will likely continue to sound angry.

    No, none of that means it's hard. But, it is hard. Again, if you believe otherwise, provide some evidence that "toppling crypto" is easy...

    Yes, if you're going to make an argument, the words you choose are important. If you are going to use words you don't mean, I don't see how we can have a logical debate.

    You are mistaken. China regulated the markets and made them government controlled so that they could profit.

    Once again, you're making a bold claim (that the crypto boom is over)... Please provide some data to support that assertion.

    I didn't mean to say you were wrong because I was making money.

    I meant to say that you're wrong. And I'm making money.

    I think you mean "seriously."

    Sounds like a bubble? Again, do you have data to support your assertion?

    If money justifies what?
     
  14. James Fend
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    As someone is who on the verge of building a business (possibly software with a partner & also another by myself) in the Crypto space.. I am very pro-crypto.

    With that said; I couldn't read through all of it tbh. But I will say that from my quick skim: I agree with some points, and dis-agree with others. The parts I dis-agree with are things that will be fixed and evolve on it's way, remember this is only the beginning; the version 1.

    Also; remember... blockchain is a technology. A lot of people don't realize that the Blockchain technology itself, there are things that even the greatest developers haven't even found a use yet, or can even describe it. =)
     
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  15. Longinus
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    Yes, because what you posted here, will haunt you forever until your last days on forum.

    Get your shit together and go on with your life. You posted some stupid stuff (haven't we all?), agreed, but you also opened an interesting pro and con discussion.

    It could have been worst: at least you did not claim to have become a millionaire overnight or ask consulting fees for "charity" :smuggy:
     
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  16. bettereveryday
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    I have no idea what the hell you're talking about OP

    You're literally on a computer right now typing as it performs "work" for you. Morally wrong my ass

    I made a thread awhile ago calling "cryptocurrency a crock of sh*t". 99% of the people who posted in the thread bashed me and their counterargument was completely rooted in emotion.

    I became even more embedded in my negative opinion, anytime I see people flocking to something and being swept off their feet by the hype, I know it's usually best practice to stay away from it.

    That was until JScott came in and broke it down for me, his points were rooted in logic and reason, it made sense and it completely changed my opinion of cryptocurrency.

    I'm a believer now, I'm an even biggerbeliever in blockchain and decentralization. That sh*t has the possibility of changing the world and it's power structure, which I don't think will happen cause humans are gonna be humans, but knowing something like that is out there is pretty cool.

    This idea and philosophy of decentralization is beautiful. There's developers out there working towards creating a decentralized internet where we no longer have to rely on ISP's, could you imagine that?

    It's probably not gonna happen anytime soon, but f*ck its pretty exciting to think about.

    Cryptocurrency and blockchain has the potential to take power away from the banks and governments, we no longer have to rely and trust them, we can just trust and rely on the blockchain.

    Here's the thing though, this isn't how the f*cking world works. The CryptoMarkets are unregulated and subject to manipulation, the people in power now see an opportunity, Wall Street is swooping in and taking advantage of any chinks in the armor.

    And the "crypto-enthusiasts", 99% of em don't give a shit.

    Cryptocurrency was created to be a means of exchange and a store of value, an alternative/improvement to the dollar and all these other sh**ty currencies where we have to put our faith in an incompetent govt/power structure.

    Well guess what? Everyone just sees it as an opportunity to profit, to make more money in the very currency they criticize (the dollar). People are treating cryptocurrency like the *cking stock market.

    On one hand you got governments and Wall Street swooping in, and then you got the masses thinking this sh*t will get them rich, "to the moon we go" as they say.

    Cryptocurrency was like a beautiful virgin maiden who got gangbanged and bukkaed by people who saw her beauty as a means of fulfilling their own selfish desires.

    I'm not absolved from this shit, I just ate a box of Costo pizza and masturbated as means of curbing my hedonism and lack of discipline and looked in the mirror with absolute disgust, who am I to judge anyone. With that being said, you people make me fuc*ing sick. Disgraceful sons of bit*ches
     
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  17. MiguelHammond10
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    You guys should take it easy on Him,even if you don't agree with Him , you can't say its Trash,though I disagree with Him but at some point he is making sense, we are all learning.
     
  18. maverick
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    maverick Unorthodox Nonconformist Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    A few short points:
    1. The carbon footprint problem is real. That's why proof of stake will be introduced. This will eliminate the need for GPUs, leading to a significant decrease of electricity usage. See:
    Proof-of-stake - Wikipedia
    Proof of Stake FAQ · ethereum/wiki Wiki · GitHub

    2. Are you talking about the 51% problem here? Not sure what you mean otherwise. If you are talking about the 51% then proof of stake is built to counter that as well.

    3. Scamming will always happen when new technologies emerge. People play systems; systems adapt. That has always been the way. We're at version 1 now, give it some time.

    4. A dollar bill is not worth anything. You can argue and say that dollars are backed by oil (which is also a commodity btw) however what worth will oil have in the near future? What value does the dollar create then?
    Good reference here: What Is Bitcoin's Elusive Intrinsic Value?

    5. How is this different from 'normal' money?

    6. This is a very general statement; not sure how this is relevant for our discussion here.

    7. See proof of stake.
     
  19. bettereveryday
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    bettereveryday Contributor

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    Your argument fu*king sucks.

    Cryptocurrency inherently, in its very essence, is a positive force. It's beneficial for society, for us as a people.

    The problem is, however, PEOPLE. People have tainted and will continue to soil the CryptoMarkets.

    You have the vultures (Wall Street, the banks, govt) and the filthy disgusting hyenas ( the masses, the "crypto-enthusiasts") running to the markets like a crackhead does to a dope dealer when he's come up on $20.

    Will people make money off this CryptoWave? Of course. Will people get rich off trading cryptocurrency? A very small percentage will. Will crypto-enthusiasts continue to criticize banks and the dollar and then trade cryptocurrency as means of making more of those very same dollars that they criticize? You can bet your life on it.

    Will Cryptocurrency lead to any constructive societal change? Will it trump the dollar? Absolutely not.
     
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  20. bettereveryday
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    bettereveryday Contributor

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    No, a dollar bill is worth something.

    All value comes from perception. People perceive the dollar having value because the govt says it does and because everyone believes it does, that's why we all f*cking use it.

    Cryptocurrency is inherently worthless too. Tell me how cryptocurrency is worth anything other than the fact people believe it's worth something? Crypto is fiat just like the dollar

    I could literally sh*t on my hand and use it as currency if I could get people to perceive it as having value
     
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  21. maverick
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    maverick Unorthodox Nonconformist Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    Yes, we're saying the same thing with different words.
     
  22. nordien1978
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    nordien1978 New Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED

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    Don't agree with your views about crypto currencies, but some points are valid.

    There is a lot of projects that makes no sense how they are going to realize there ambitions or make any kind of revenue.
    But with some due diligence and investigation you can find promising and viable projects that is developed on and seen in gitHub.
    When i do invest it is from the F-U pot not something else.
    And yes it is not regulated and the market cap is not the same as regular investing, that why whales can manipulate these markets.
    I see it more like investing in startup in a new industry projects that has legs or more solid background then all the noise been generated by ICO's.

    It is a learning experience but i see a future for this industry and want to continue to learn.

    Note:
    Also 3rd World Countries are not Internet deprived as they use a mobile internet as there avenue and growing fast the infrastructures as seen in Africa.
     
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  23. GlobalWealth
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    GlobalWealth Platinum Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    OP, you lost all credibility when you made it a morality issue.

    Sent from my VTR-L29 using Tapatalk
     
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  24. ruzara5
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    ruzara5 Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED

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    This scenario is inline with the classic 'caveat'. I am still going over it. I do believe that some good will persevere with bitcoin and ethereum. Seperating all that hype and the reality. Thank you for the 'eight things links. Very interesting.
     
  25. mcastillo
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    Crypto isn't going anywhere... People say it's not backed by anything but what is the dollar backed by anymore :)
     
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