Veganism / Plant-Based Diet

[ToniLene]

New book- the DMT diet

Drops the mic

Long live Terence Mckenna.

 

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[Nick314]

Again, let me recommend Lierre Keith's book.

The argument to go vegetarian based on avoiding mass scale feed lot animal breeding is fallacious. (And if you are vegetarian, please read that sentence carefully--I didn't say anything about whether or not to go vegetarian, the noun is "the argument to..." not the result of choosing vegetarianism.)

The answer to avoid mass scale feed lot animal raising is to stop doing feed lot animal raising. Go back to sustainable free-range animal raising such as espoused by Joe Salatin and other sustainable farming practitioners. The animals are healthier, far fewer antibiotics are needed, and their meat is far healthier to consume--it actually has a completely different composition which affects the consumers differently (for the better). (eg, their omega 6:3 ratios are what they should be, not skewed astronomically due to being fed grain/candy, and their acidity/alkalinity is different as well, which happens to affect the succeptability of bacteria presence such as e-coli.)

The argument that going vegetarian eliminates animal cruelty is a giant myth. It's actually *far worse* than feed-lot animal raising and slaughter houses. Why? Lierre spends a lengthy chapter delving into the why, but tl;dr; is that monocrop agriculture destroys *entire ecosystems*, drinks *whole rivers* dry, and the harvesting equipment kills nearly every animal in its path. Millions of acres of grains are harvested killing every little rabbit, fox, squirrel, bird that doesn't scramble and get out of the way indiscriminately, and destroys their habitat again on every pass even if they do survive the combine. Not to mention the giant amount of oil required to create the fertilizer--which in a sustainable farm setup comes from bone meal--from animal remains--again, the planet's natural ecosystems and cycles of life were harmonious and balanced before we interrupted it...

She explains these things in very informative detail. *Well* worth the reading no matter what diet you choose for yourself.

 

[Damage Inc.]

I have no interest in joining the argument, but I will throw myself out there in support of the vegetarian side. I know I'm not the only other one around here, but most of us have lost the desire to defend our choices to the 97% of the population who disagrees with us. If however anybody wants me to totally change their views about religion, abortion, whether or not I think you're allowed to spank your kid, or politics feel free to pm me.

 

[Jonleehacker]

Thanks to entrepreneurs, maybe we'll be able to lay this argument to bed in the near future;

The World's First Plant-Based Scrambled Egg - Hampton Creek Foods

 

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[Shades]

Just dont eat like a moron I say. I think eating a ton of meat can be harmful to you long term. But you are going to be fine if you eat like a normal person. The real problem with our diet is people not eating enough whole foods. When we are eating meats its not quality meat. Too much processed foods and junk.

Dont buy junk at the store. Eat greens and whole foods. Dont make a 30oz steak the main attraction for the meal. Correct portions.

 

[csalvato]

But at the same time animals are treated horribly in slaughter houses.

What if you could eat animals that were raised with happy, natural, normal lives, that were then humanely and instantly killed without going through a torturous slaughterhouse process? Would that change your view into a win/win?

 

[AndrewNC]

What if you could eat animals that were raised with happy, natural, normal lives, that were then humanely and instantly killed without going through a torturous slaughterhouse process? Would that change your view into a win/win?

From the traditional vegan view: "would you like me to be nice to you before I murder you".

From my own point of view of the circle of life and a more "energy/ food is fuel" sense - the negative emotions released through the bodies of the animals would be much less - and I would say a better option

 

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[JustinBoshans]

What if you could eat animals that were raised with happy, natural, normal lives, that were then humanely and instantly killed without going through a torturous slaughterhouse process? Would that change your view into a win/win?

we'll have cloned meat one day and hopefully they'll be able to produce it so it is healthy.

 

[csalvato]

we'll have cloned meat one day and hopefully they'll be able to produce it so it is healthy.

This statement doesn't make much sense to me...?

 

[JustinBoshans]

This statement doesn't make much sense to me...?

Sorry about that let me elaborate on what I meant. You were asking if the animals lived a healthy happy life and then were insta killed without any pain would that then be okay. I was saying that in the future there will be meat grown from stem cells to purchase. If this is the case, and the meat is grown to be healthy and there aren't any negative side effects, I would have no problem what so ever with people eating it.

 

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[ToniLene]

Sorry about that let me elaborate on what I meant. You were asking if the animals lived a healthy happy life and then were insta killed without any pain would that then be okay. I was saying that in the future there will be meat grown from stem cells to purchase. If this is the case, and the meat is grown to be healthy and there aren't any negative side effects, I would have no problem what so ever with people eating it.

Yes, because the world should only do what JustinBoshans has no problem with.

 

[JustinBoshans]

Yes, because the world should only do what JustinBoshans has no problem with.

We were asked if we would see something as a win/win. I stated what I would see as a win win. I know there are different strokes for different folks so don't make assumptions like that about me. Also we're on the fastlane forum and I understand the concept of "the market telling you what it wants."

If you want to do the things I have no problem with be my guest though (=

 

[ToniLene]

We were asked if we would see something as a win/win. I stated what I would see as a win win. I know there are different strokes for different folks so don't make assumptions like that about me. Also we're on the fastlane forum and I understand the concept of "the market telling you what it wants."

If you want to do the things I have no problem with be my guest though (=

So how is eating cloned meat a "win/win" for you? Aren't clones sentient beings that can feel pain?

 

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[JustinBoshans]

So how is eating cloned meat a "win/win" for you? Aren't clones sentient beings that can feel pain?

meat grown from stem cells.

 

[csalvato]

Sorry about that let me elaborate on what I meant. You were asking if the animals lived a healthy happy life and then were insta killed without any pain would that then be okay. I was saying that in the future there will be meat grown from stem cells to purchase. If this is the case, and the meat is grown to be healthy and there aren't any negative side effects, I would have no problem what so ever with people eating it.

This isn't entirely true.

Muscle cells grown in a lab will never be nearly as good as the actual fully complete organism. Without going into too much A&P detail, the muscle within a living organism is made complete by the system to which it belongs.

Remove the rest of the system (the living body) and the nutritional quality of the meat will suffer tremendously. The system is what imparts the nutrients within the muscle tissue.

In this case, the whole is much greater than the sum of it's parts.

Maybe with enough advancement, lab-grown meats are going to be as good as regularly grown meats...but I wouldn't estimate that level of technology for at least 100 years, at best, personally. In fact, I would estimate that level of complexity and quality could not practically be reproduced artificially.

 

[Mineralogic]

From the traditional vegan view: "would you like me to be nice to you before I murder you".

From my own point of view of the circle of life and a more "energy/ food is fuel" sense - the negative emotions released through the bodies of the animals would be much less - and I would say a better option

what about the negative energy released when a vegan GORGES on a massive bowl of fresh salad with all the veggies ? GIGGLES

 

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[Mineralogic]

This isn't entirely true.

Muscle cells grown in a lab will never be nearly as good as the actual fully complete organism. Without going into too much A&P detail, the muscle within a living organism is made complete by the system to which it belongs.

Remove the rest of the system (the living body) and the nutritional quality of the meat will suffer tremendously. The system is what imparts the nutrients within the muscle tissue.

In this case, the whole is much greater than the sum of it's parts.

Maybe with enough advancement, lab-grown meats are going to be as good as regularly grown meats...but I wouldn't estimate that level of technology for at least 100 years, at best, personally. In fact, I would estimate that level of complexity and quality could not practically be reproduced artificially.

Wouldnt doubt it...cloned meat by not be any better than the processed shit meat they are warning about in the news today

 

[AustinS28]

You could have a look at this guy, who is the strongest men in germany and has broken some world records:

Also Mr. Universe 2014 recently went Vegan:

Kinda had to stop reading here especially posting Mr. Universe at what I'm assuming you're implying as a vegetarian that is a pinnacle of good health.

Being heavily involved in the fitness industry and having friends who are actively competing in bodybuilding, the lipid panels and blood pressure of these top bodybuilders using drugs like trenbolon, mast, deca and a cocktail that is much larger are horrendous and is a reason we see a lot of these guys unfortunately dying young from heart disease.

Just because one vegetarian is a top level athlete doesn't make a credible case that a vegetarian diet produces top level athletes as I can probably find 50 top athletes that eat a healthy balanced diet for every 1 vegetarian athlete.

And what about the positive benefits omega 3s, and saturated fats found in grass fed meats and butters have on lipid panels and hormone production?

What about vitamin b12?

I'm totally for freedom of choice and have nothing against anyone vegetarian unless they claim their diet is the focal point of good health and other diets should be based around it.

 

[csalvato]

What about vitamin b12?

Shouldn't have stopped reading. You might have made some friends.

 

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[AndrewNC]

what about the negative energy released when a vegan GORGES on a massive bowl of fresh salad with all the veggies ? GIGGLES

[HASHTAG]#savetheplants[/HASHTAG]

 

[Mineralogic]

[HASHTAG]#savetheplants[/HASHTAG]

oh oh....meAt found in veg substitutes LOL

The real news here,

https://www.rt.com/usa/319786-test-human-dna-hot-dogs/

 

[DeletedUser394]

I see why threads like religion and politics are banned.

No ones opinion has been swayed by either side. And this topic has been going on for a couple of weeks now.

Eat/Don't eat whatever you want. Pray/Don't pray to whoever you want. Vote/Don't vote for whoever you want. Nobody cares.

The circlejerk is strong in this thread.

 

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[Mineralogic]

I see why threads like religion and politics are banned.

No ones opinion has been swayed by either side. And this topic has been going on for a couple of weeks now.

Eat/Don't eat whatever you want. Pray/Don't pray to whoever you want. Vote/Don't vote for whoever you want. Nobody cares.

The circlejerk is strong in this thread.

I disagree vehemently. This was one of the most enlightening nutrition/vegan/meat threads I've read in a while and i'm Finding it on a business forum of all places.

If a person has a real open mind they would see that the case is closed on this on the valuable role of toxin-free Meat/saturated fats/Fish/Eggs are in a human diet. I think the vegan argument was completely destroyed and I was impressed with the VALUABLE knowledge shared by people here. Also pesticides and toxins in plants have never been higher as well...Yet how soon everyone forgets that as well as GMO, etc. That would include GRAINS/Gluten/etc

The real circle jerk is from militant vegans who don't want to accept reality and the food chain...as well as the quantifiable BENEFITS to some of the Paleo-focused elements of Health. As people have said before, choose vegan if you want to eliminate some animal suffering- ( btw they will die in the end anyway like all of us and that itself IS suffering in itself) Lastly, I'm not joking..the data is coming IN that plants do react to what we perceive as painful stimuli. Makes complete sense..after all PLANTS ARE ALIVE in very real ways. Its somewhat IRONIC to picture a vegan stuffing their face with a BOWL of live plants that they are killing in their Mouth and feeling ZERO Guilt FOR!!!

 

[csalvato]

I see why threads like religion and politics are banned.

No ones opinion has been swayed by either side. And this topic has been going on for a couple of weeks now.

Eat/Don't eat whatever you want. Pray/Don't pray to whoever you want. Vote/Don't vote for whoever you want. Nobody cares.

The circlejerk is strong in this thread.

I disagree vehemently. This was one of the most enlightening nutrition/vegan/meat threads I've read in a while and i'm Finding it on a business forum of all places.

If a person has a real open mind they would see that the case is closed on this on the valuable role of toxin-free Meat/saturated fats/Fish/Eggs are in a human diet. I think the vegan argument was completely destroyed and I was impressed with the VALUABLE knowledge shared by people here. Also pesticides and toxins in plants have never been higher as well...Yet how soon everyone forgets that as well as GMO, etc. That would include GRAINS/Gluten/etc

The real circle jerk is from militant vegans who don't want to accept reality and the food chain...as well as the quantifiable BENEFITS to some of the Paleo-focused elements of Health. As people have said before, choose vegan if you want to eliminate some animal suffering- ( btw they will die in the end anyway like all of us and that itself IS suffering in itself) Lastly, I'm not joking..the data is coming IN that plants do react to what we perceive as painful stimuli. Makes complete sense..after all PLANTS ARE ALIVE in very real ways. Its somewhat IRONIC to picture a vegan stuffing their face with a BOWL of live plants that they are killing in their Mouth and feeling ZERO Guilt FOR!!!

I disagree with @GrumpyCat as well, but for slightly different reasons.

Truth is, this isn't my first nutrition-on-a-forum rodeo. I've been talking about nutrition on various forums for the past decade or so (including CrossFit's boards, American Parkour's boards, Performance Menu, etc. to name a few).

When debates like this happen in the open, people get educated really quickly on BOTH sides of the debate. The people involved in the debate rarely change their view, but there have been several times where I have received PM's months or years later from people who found a thread where I was debating and thanked me for the knowledge that gave them a starting point for future research.

That kind of thing is very valuable to other people, and I know it's there, which is why I don't look at these as "fruitless arguments".

Now, the kind of thing that should be banned are people saying they are selling businesses after 2 years for 8 figures or more, taking payment from others for "consulting phone calls", and people parading around like gurus who are living in shacks in the desert. But that's a debate for another time.

 

[Guest34764]

Except for the fact that God does not exist.

This thread is a year old..Was it necessary to bump it for that statement?

 

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[arfadugus]

This thread is a year old..Was it necessary to bump it for that statement?

Why do you care?

 

[Denim Chicken]

This thread is a year old..Was it necessary to bump it for that statement?

He just wants attention

 

[jsk29]

Didn't read the whole thread..

But if we're not meant to eat meat, why do we have four 'canine' teeth?

 

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[arfadugus]

Didn't read the whole thread..

But if we're not meant to eat meat, why do we have four 'canine' teeth?

That is the worse logic I've ever heard, look at a gorillas canine teeth.

 

[jsk29]

That is the worse logic I've ever heard, look at a gorillas canine teeth.

Oops

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...s-gorillas-elephants-teeth-science-dentistry/

http://freefromharm.org/photo-galleries/9-reasons-your-canine-teeth-dont-make-you-a-meat-eater/