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Veganism / Plant-Based Diet

joschi

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@Delmania he is a little creazy maybe but seems to be healthy, he gave up the competetive part a long time ago...
ive spoken to several doctors about this topic. interesting is, that nearly every one in the academic medicine business says "meat is harmless" but as soon as you get to people who are deeper into nutrions i always hear "vegetables and fruits first". Once a doctor that i highly respect told me "animal proteine once a week is ok"

so i think everyone has to decide for them self in the end. on the other hand is the current meat consumption and production not sustainable. so it will change. so or so.

at all:
see it this way: if the mass of western society continues produce and consume meat on this rate there will be no rainforrest left, which will cause the death of millions, if not billions. so even if eating meat would be healthy, in the current way it cant be (in the long term)

and thats why my kudos goes to @Nomangee
 
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Nomangee

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Here's a legit study that concludes vegans have lower testosterone.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1435181

There is no decrease in performance, also they only say the testosterone level decreased, nothing about a risk or that it was an unhealthy level, especially as this were tests on high performance athletes.

I would like to get some constructive questions and shift the conversation to people that would like to try it out or have some health conditions that they would like to get improved, where I can maybe give them a hint. That was by no mean a thread to discuss which diet is better, only about things I have noticed and many others on this diet.

I don't say beign vegan = healthy. As there are a lot of people that see only the ethical point of veganism and have a crappy shit diet. Therefor I say most of the time, that I'm following a plant-based diet, as it means you also care about your health.
 
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Jamie T

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DaRK9

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How do you eat bacon?

But foie gras...
 
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Nicko

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Food (for me at least) is one of life's great passions. What would a vegan eat as a substitute to any of the following:

A piece of brie or camembert
Oysters
Bacon
Roast pork belly
Waygu steak
Bacon
Garlic prawns
Lobster bisque
Bacon
Pate
Chicken wings
Bacon
BBQ spare ribs
Snow crab sliders
Bacon

Did I mention bacon ?
 

joschi

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@Nicko a vegan seeks pleasure elsewhere, or in other foods. His pleassure is that no animal has to suffer for him. If you can life with the knowledge that thausends and thausands of animals will suffer and die for your pleasure, thats your thing. Most vegans tollerate this, but that doesnt mean that they accept it. I think @Nomangee `s goeal was here to do his part and help people out who are thinking about adapting a vegan life style, not start a discussion if veganism is a good or bad thing. and i am pretty disapointed that very smart people who are all entreprenours are seem to be offended by this.
 
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Kelly C

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Veganism made me quite unhealthy. I was vegan for about 3 years and although I felt good to begin with..over time I started feeling like I had severe fatigue. I found it difficult getting out of bed in the morning and my hair was in terrible shape. I initially did it to try and help my digestion and asthma.

I am glad I did it, as I found out some asthma triggers I would never have found out if I hadn't...but it isn't healthy in my opinion.

I don't like muscle meat much...but I make a lot of stock from bones, eat liver, lots of fish and eggs in my diet. I must say since upping my protein/fat intake for the FIRST time in at least 10 years my digestion has been brilliant. I used to have constant stomach issues...severe bloating that would cause me agony at night and then feel drained all the time. I had to be very careful not to eat anywhere near bedtime...now I don't have this issue.

I never went vegan for ethical vegans but I did think about the ethical implications of meat eating and do source locally. I don't buy anything mass produced and I think that is the way forward. I don't think its wrong to eat meat - I think its essential. I don't ever want to feel the way I did after a year of veganism...I got literally NOTHING done for those few years...it was wasted life.
 

SBS.95

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Damn you, I wanted to post this as soon as I read the thread title!

Hope to keep this topic clean, as a lot of people are offended by it. What I see often is, that they know inside them that something isn't right, so they get angry and don't want to admit or change it, maybe because it takes some time and effort.

I'll be honest, you lost me here. This attitude right here is why I can't stand many people in this whole vegan movement. There is nothing wrong with me, or anyone else, who wants to eat meat. You do not have something "better" inside of you. Coincidentally, there is nothing wrong with you for NOT eating meat. I don't look down on you, yet for some reason (despite you clamoring for open-mindedness) you seem to look down on others.

One of my closest friends is vegan. I don't think there is anything wrong with her, and she doesn't think there is anything wrong with people eating meat. Vegans are A-OK as far as I'm concerned. If you want to convert people to your lifestyle, go ahead and try. But telling people there is something wrong inside of them is not the way to do it.

Get off your high horse.
Can you actually ride horses as a vegan or is that against the rules too?
 
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Sheps

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Being healthy and being vegan are two completely unrelated topics. Generally people eat too much meat, often red.

There is a lot of misunderstand around things like diet, metabolism and all of this stuff. Fact is most people don't even have a cursory understanding of the material.

My background.
BSc Biomedical Science, PhD student (though depending on how my education here goes, this may change), 2 years of research under my belt.
Pre rotator cuff and low back injury my lifts were, 3xBody weight deadlift and squat with a 2xBW bench press. Also boxed but never competed, -I just liked the training- for a few years.

In summary; Meat good. Vegan unnatural.
 

OscarDeuce

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Damn you, I wanted to post this as soon as I read the thread title!



I'll be honest, you lost me here. This attitude right here is why I can't stand many people in this whole vegan movement. There is nothing wrong with me, or anyone else, who wants to eat meat. You do not have something "better" inside of you. Coincidentally, there is nothing wrong with you for NOT eating meat. I don't look down on you, yet for some reason (despite you clamoring for open-mindedness) you seem to look down on others.

One of my closest friends is vegan. I don't think there is anything wrong with her, and she doesn't think there is anything wrong with people eating meat. Vegans are A-OK as far as I'm concerned. If you want to convert people to your lifestyle, go ahead and try. But telling people there is something wrong inside of them is not the way to do it.

Get off your high horse.
Can you actually ride horses as a vegan or is that against the rules too?

Yep, beat me to it too.

Cheers,
O-2
 

ToniLene

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Came back to the forum a few weeks ago and wan't to become active again. Saw that no one ever spoke about the topic, even that there are a lot of people in the entrepreneur/nomad community that are into this lifestyle.

I'm by no means an expert in the field, but I have studied it over the last few years, after I got badly sick. At one point I could only lie for around one month in bed, besides eating and a few other things that were urgent.

My story:
Got out of school, knew I never wanted to get a normal job. Got into gaming, wasted so much time and my eating and sport habits got worst. Got the breakdown above described and since 3 years I'm trying to improve my life in every aspect. Which at least I could already improve in some areas.

So over the last 3 years around I tried to find out about internal and external things that can make us sick in this modern society, which are a lot. Since 1 1/2 years im fully vegan and around 3 years vegetarian.

I know it's a "hot" topic and everybody has his own opinions.



So ask me anything about the lifestyle, health, environment aspects, ethics...

As a start, I would like to post a video about a conversation a vegan youtuber has with his non vegan friend:

Hope to keep this topic clean, as a lot of people are offended by it. What I see often is, that they know inside them that something isn't right, so they get angry and don't want to admit or change it, maybe because it takes some time and effort.

What's not right? Eating meat? Please. Sounds like you went from one extreme to another. Anything in excess will have detrimental effect. A well balanced diet that includes grass fed beef, fish, chicken, veggies, fruits is ideal and how our ancestors survived.

Vegan/Vegetarianism is linked to mental illness, so you might want to check your B12 and iron levels and keep them high. Omega fatty acids from fish are also crucial to brain health.

Vegetarian diet and mental disorders: results from a representative community survey

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3466124/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23356638
 
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ToniLene

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@Nicko a vegan seeks pleasure elsewhere, or in other foods. His pleassure is that no animal has to suffer for him. If you can life with the knowledge that thausends and thausands of animals will suffer and die for your pleasure, thats your thing. Most vegans tollerate this, but that doesnt mean that they accept it. I think @Nomangee `s goeal was here to do his part and help people out who are thinking about adapting a vegan life style, not start a discussion if veganism is a good or bad thing. and i am pretty disapointed that very smart people who are all entreprenours are seem to be offended by this.

You're speaking philosophically based on your personal beliefs. Just as not everyone is Christian or Muslim, etc...not every believes in Veganism. As the higher species(depending whom you ask) humans have dominion over animals. I by no means support animal cruelty, but animal husbandry has existed as a way of life for thousands of years and it's not going to end until the end of time.

I know a few vegans that are more extreme than the Taliban. It gets a bit annoying being preached to.
 

Mineralogic

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I can't believe the Vegans are still arguing this. If you want to be healthy do not listen to the vegans,...you must work in SOME animal saturated fats, eggs, etc. Also you will be woefully deficient in B12 the energy vitamin. Why would anyone want to deplete their B12 one of the most important water soluble vitamins is beyond me especially as someone who FELT what it was like to be deficient ( and I was on a CARB DIET LOL!!!!)

if you want to do something in your own life ethically such as minimizing animal suffering, then do it for that.

but know this, the proof from SCIENCE is coming in heavy now that PLANTS feel suffering as well.

There is a whole food and energy vampirism cycle on this planet most don't want to admit
 

Mineralogic

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Veganism made me quite unhealthy. I was vegan for about 3 years and although I felt good to begin with..over time I started feeling like I had severe fatigue. I found it difficult getting out of bed in the morning and my hair was in terrible shape. I initially did it to try and help my digestion and asthma.

I am glad I did it, as I found out some asthma triggers I would never have found out if I hadn't...but it isn't healthy in my opinion.

I don't like muscle meat much...but I make a lot of stock from bones, eat liver, lots of fish and eggs in my diet. I must say since upping my protein/fat intake for the FIRST time in at least 10 years my digestion has been brilliant. I used to have constant stomach issues...severe bloating that would cause me agony at night and then feel drained all the time. I had to be very careful not to eat anywhere near bedtime...now I don't have this issue.

I never went vegan for ethical vegans but I did think about the ethical implications of meat eating and do source locally. I don't buy anything mass produced and I think that is the way forward. I don't think its wrong to eat meat - I think its essential. I don't ever want to feel the way I did after a year of veganism...I got literally NOTHING done for those few years...it was wasted life.

exactly, you feel great at first and then all the deficiencies and hormone changes build up OVER TIME
 
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ToniLene

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if you want to do something in your own life ethically such as minimizing animal suffering, then do it for that.

but know this, the proof from SCIENCE is coming in heavy now that PLANTS feel suffering as well.

There is a whole food and energy vampirism cycle on this planet most don't want to admit


That is so true. I first read those studies over 12 years ago in college(my first stint) after reading "The Celestine Prophecy." That's probably a bit too new age for some folks. Shhhh...
 

Mineralogic

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this guy might have a thing or two to contest about being a vegan looking or acting "soft". I stood next to him at the NHL store in NY a year ago. even a couple years out of the league and he looks like he could probably kill the Predator with his bare hands.
 

Mineralogic

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laraque2.jpg


this guy might have a thing or two to contest about being a vegan looking or acting "soft". I stood next to him at the NHL store in NY a year ago. even a couple years out of the league and he looks like he could probably kill the Predator with his bare hands.


that's not the point. anyone can use high dose plant based protein powders to bulk in the short term let alone bulking up with Carbs.
 
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Carnage

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You could have a look at this guy, who is the strongest men in germany and has broken some world records:

Also Mr. Universe 2014 recently went Vegan:
These are two people who recently went Vegan...Not people who built their successes on a Vegan Diet.
Not saying that you can't get big and strong....but this is not a convincing argument for saying that Vegans can make big gains...

They got big and strong AND THEN became Vegan.
 

Arty

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The problem with people switching to a so called 'plant based diet', vegetarian or vegan, is that they forget that it's supposed to be PLANT BASED, it doesn't just mean not eating animal products and instead eating whatever else you want.
It's a very hard diet to stick to, particularly if you want to avoid unhealthy things like Soy and Wheat.
That 'fake meat' everyone is going nuts over is about as healthy as a cardboard box.
If you want to successfully switch to a plant based diet, avoid fake meats, avoid soy, gluten, and anything else that's heavily marketed to vegans.
Instead, the bulk of your diet should be fruit, potatoes, quinoa, beans, polenta, lentils, raw vegetables (particularly Cruciferous vegetables like cabbage and turnip), pumpkin, spinach, avocado etc etc etc.
REAL FOOD, in other words.
But you're really limiting yourself by choosing not to eat eggs, honey, meat, organs, bone marrow and milk.
 

Mineralogic

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The problem with people switching to a so called 'plant based diet', vegetarian or vegan, is that they forget that it's supposed to be PLANT BASED, it doesn't just mean not eating animal products and instead eating whatever else you want.
It's a very hard diet to stick to, particularly if you want to avoid unhealthy things like Soy and Wheat.
That 'fake meat' everyone is going nuts over is about as healthy as a cardboard box.
If you want to successfully switch to a plant based diet, avoid fake meats, avoid soy, gluten, and anything else that's heavily marketed to vegans.
Instead, the bulk of your diet should be fruit, potatoes, quinoa, beans, polenta, lentils, raw vegetables (particularly Cruciferous vegetables like cabbage and turnip), pumpkin, spinach, avocado etc etc etc.
REAL FOOD, in other words.
But you're really limiting yourself by choosing not to eat eggs, honey, meat, organs, bone marrow and milk.

and the other point is if you go "vegan" and are stuffing your freaking face with fake sugar and GRAINS and tons of starch all the time I guarantee you will have more health problems than meat eaters...guaranteed. Its hilarious how many problems a carb/ non animal diet has caused and yet none of the vegans have taken responsibility for perpetuating this. if you don't eat meat , eggs, anything animal based you will be FORCED to eat more of these fake plant processed foods by DEFAULT
 
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csalvato

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The way you are doing research is idiotic.

  1. Doctors are not authorities on nutrition. They are authorities on assessing symptoms and providing a diagnosis based on shit tons of memorization and, in many cases, a complete lack of intelligent thought. Even Doctors will agree with this, right @Iwokeup ?
  2. People making blog posts, YouTube videos, and other online claims is not "evidence", "science" or "proof".
Here's how you make an intelligent decision about your health:
  • Learn Anatomy and Physiology. If you don't want to know every little detail, then just read the chapters on cell structure, cell biology, the digestive system, the endocrine system and metabolism.
  • Read articles that explain each of the viewpoints, backed up with citations from primary, medical sources (e.g. Full Text of research studies).
  • Read the primary sources.
  • Analyze and scrutinize the primary sources. This may require you to understand things like statistics. That way you will know that a study of 4 participants is absolutely meaningless.
Here's why:
  • Without understanding biology and A&P, you will never understand nutrition or the current research.
  • Without reading the research papers, you can't understand the new concepts that are emerging.
  • By ignoring other people's opinions, and focusing on the facts, you will be able to generate an objective opinion.
If you're not really willing to do that, IMHO, you have no F*cking place preaching nutrition to people.

Here's my opinion, as someone who has done all this several times over:
  • Veganism is bullshit
  • The best "diet" is Paleo (focusing on grass fed, wild and pastured products). It makes the most logical sense and is supported by the empirical data focusing on mechanisms and when examining epidemiological data.
  • Vegetarianism is on the right track, but is based on a lot of flawed and incomplete logic.
  • Paleo not focusing on grass fed, wild and pastured products is worse than vegetarianism, but better than everything else.
  • Every other diet isn't even worth discussion because they are obscure, unpopular and ineffective.
EDIT: I forgot the topic of ethics. IMHO Eating meat is different from how meat is handled. A lot of people get into veganism to avoid animal suffering. I personally don't think an animal who is destined to be food should be tortured...and pastured/wild animals are not tortured. To me, that's ethically sound to eat them, as that's what I've evolved to do (a claim that is wholly rooted in actual science and anthropology).

But don't take my word for it. Do real research. None of this YouTube and anecdotal nonsense.
 
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csalvato

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As most of the studies are only accessable if you pay for them ( 50$+ per study) yeah it's quite a good way to get your information. Also most people I think won't read a full science article about such a topic.

Here is a small snippet out of one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20234038
This study has F*ck-all to do with veganism dude.
 

ToniLene

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The way you are doing research is idiotic.

  1. Doctors are not authorities on nutrition. They are authorities on assessing symptoms and providing a diagnosis based on shit tons of memorization and, in many cases, a complete lack of intelligent thought. Even Doctors will agree with this, right @Iwokeup ?
  2. People making blog posts, YouTube videos, and other online claims is not "evidence", "science" or "proof".
Here's how you make an intelligent decision about your health:
  • Learn Anatomy and Physiology. If you don't want to know every little detail, then just read the chapters on cell structure, cell biology, the digestive system, the endocrine system and metabolism.
  • Read articles that explain each of the viewpoints, backed up with citations from primary, medical sources (e.g. Full Text of research studies).
  • Read the primary sources.
  • Analyze and scrutinize the primary sources. This may require you to understand things like statistics. That way you will know that a study of 4 participants is absolutely meaningless.
Here's why:
  • Without understanding biology and A&P, you will never understand nutrition or the current research.
  • Without reading the research papers, you can't understand the new concepts that are emerging.
  • By ignoring other people's opinions, and focusing on the facts, you will be able to generate an objective opinion.
If you're not really willing to do that, IMHO, you have no F*cking place preaching nutrition to people.

Here's my opinion, as someone who has done all this several times over:
  • Veganism is bullshit
  • The best "diet" is Paleo (focusing on grass fed, wild and pastured products). It makes the most logical sense and is supported by the empirical data focusing on mechanisms and when examining epidemiological data.
  • Vegetarianism is on the right track, but is based on a lot of flawed and incomplete logic.
  • Paleo not focusing on grass fed, wild and pastured products is worse than vegetarianism, but better than everything else.
  • Every other diet isn't even worth discussion because they are obscure, unpopular and ineffective.
EDIT: I forgot the topic of ethics. IMHO Eating meat is different from how meat is handled. A lot of people get into veganism to avoid animal suffering. I personally don't think an animal who is destined to be food should be tortured...and pastured/wild animals are not tortured. To me, that's ethically sound to eat them, as that's what I've evolved to do (a claim that is wholly rooted in actual science and anthropology).

But don't take my word for it. Do real research. None of this YouTube and anecdotal nonsense.

I was in complete agreement until you mentioned Paleo which is just another gimmicky marketing fad diet. Checkout this article which links to university studies.
http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/12/20/study-paleo-diet-wrong
 
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csalvato

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I was in complete agreement until you mentioned Paleo which is just another gimmicky marketing fad diet. Checkout this article which links to university studies.
http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/12/20/study-paleo-diet-wrong

I agree paleo isn't perfect at all... But for the "out of the box" diet paradigms it's the closest to one I think is nearly universally a good starting point.

The best answer to the nutrition question is to understand the root of it and then experiment with yourself while integrating intelligent science.

If someone were to ask my opinion, which no one has, I recommend starting with strict paleo (which is minimal) for 30 days. Then add more stuff into the diet gradually for a week at a time noting if you feel better or worse. Few people do that but those that do feel and look awesome.
 

ToniLene

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I agree paleo isn't perfect at all... But for the "out of the box" diet paradigms it's the closest to one I think is nearly universally a good starting point.

The best answer to the nutrition question is to understand the root of it and then experiment with yourself while integrating intelligent science.

If someone were to ask my opinion, which no one has, I recommend starting with strict paleo (which is minimal) for 30 days. Then add more stuff into the diet gradually for a week at a time noting if you feel better or worse. Few people do that but those that do feel and look awesome.

I hear you. The thing about Paleo is that depending on where they were in the world, the caveman diet varied. Cavemen in North America ate a different diet than Cavemen in Siberia, etc... I get what you're saying generally though.

For anyone that eats beans, soaking beans and grains to breakdown the phytic acid is a must as is sprouting them for optimum nutrients if you have time. The Weston A. Price research on diet is what I tend to practice with my own preferences mixed in. People twisted his work a bit after his death, but his books remain valuable research on the diets of indigenous peoples.

Cutting out processed, anti-foods would be the best thing anyone could do for their family. vegan diet is far too extreme in my opinion(unless it's for ethical reasons). Sidenote: My first serious boyfriend was a radical vegan years ago and for some reason he got me to agree to stop eating meat, lol. I went a few months down the path then one day I was with my aunt and we stopped at Wendy's and I just had to have a burger, so I gobbled it down, went home and barfed it up out of guilt, haha. That relationship didn't last long. He was a moody, skinny dude.
 
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