Vaccines Required to Fly - The Beginning of More Intensive Government Control

[Thoelt53]

How are you going to stop it if you’ve already assumed this is a case that history will repeat itself?

I haven’t assumed that position

I operate as normal. And encourage others to do the same.

The folks who believe in the vaccine as some sort of conspiracy theory, or as a result of "evil governments oppressing the people of God and taking away our oh-so-holy-freedom" are the same ones who'll tell you that "C0VlD-19 is a hoax". The same types who think wearing masks is BS.

Wearing a mask is BS.

CDC has even said themselves that masks are useless after 15 minutes of “close contact.”

“Asymptomatic” people must wear masks in public to ‘stop the spread,’ because we are all “asymptomatic,” yet COVID positive people need to quarantine. If masks work so well, why do sick people need to quarantine?

It’s all a load of shit, and it’s not worth arguing over.

Believe the hype, or don’t. I won’t.

 

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[MoneyDoc]

I operate as normal. And encourage others to do the same.

Seems like we have common ground after all.

 

[rollerskates]

There are certainly some naive people on this thread. Theres a thin line here between acting in public safety, and potentially alienating people from "polite society"

It's not the vaccine it self that I would argue here, its the precedent it's setting. It's getting people used to having the government and private enterprise to essentially force you to do things.

YES, I understand we have mandatory vaccines. YES I understand that you need vaccines in order to go to public school, And I have all of my vaccines. I am not antivax. And I'm glad we have modern medicine and vaccines. Polio, yellow fever, and measles sound extremely shitty.

But there is no argument this COVID vaccine was rushed, and created in 1/10th of the time it usually takes to create a vaccine. I would worry what steps they had to leave out in order to get a vaccine to market in 1 year instead of 10.

Those who are quick to say "JuSt MoVE On AnD AcCePt IT BrO" are playing a dangerous game. Again it's the precedent that's being set. You keep giving an inch, and each time you say "Just do it, what's the big deal."

It's people saying "Well, You don't HAVE to get a vaccine, BUT you just cant travel, go to concerts or public events, have a bank account, enter a business or get a job. This sets the precedent of social outcasts, who are essentially banned from polite society because they do not conform to government edicts.



No the mortality rate is absolutely relevant. We risk driving because it is EXTREMELY likely that we make it to our destination alive. There is a risk of getting into a fatal accident. We risk our lives each year during flu season, because it's overwhelmingly likely that you will survive the flu. It's not a black and white "Does it kill or does it not."

This type of "It kills a very small percentage of people, so we must fundamentally change the rules of society" thinking is exactly the problem we've been dealing with for nearly a year now. This also removes personally responsibility from the equation, Because you assume that others can't perform a risk analysis for them selves, and decide if they want to take the risk of getting sick.

We would save lives if we lowered all speed limits to 20mph. So why don't we do that to save lives? Because we choose convenience as a society. We do not bring our selves down to the lowest common denominator. We don't change the rules for everyone because YOU'RE afraid of the small risk of death. You choose for YOU to not drive, You don't choose for ME not to drive.

Am I a tinfoil hat, Alex Jones conspiracy theorist? Absolutely not, I look at this situation through the lens of logic and the understanding of human nature. Throughout history governments (aka groups of human beings) have become corrupt, damn near with out exception as far as I understand. If you think the governments of the world are benevolent and competent, and also care about you, I have a bridge to sell you. And peoples LACK of concern about a governing body telling you you HAVE to put this thing in your body that we rushed to create in 1/10th of the time we normally do, or else you can't join us in society, Is worrying.

I mostly agree with you 404. I don't think there are lizard people pulling the strings on some grand scripted conspiracy, I think this is just the latest version of human nature playing out. We have not fundamentally changed in thousands of years, What makes anyone think we're different than our ancestors, as far as our human instincts?

Sure we have iPhones and modern medicine, but our human nature is the same as the Romans and Egyptians. And I think people are RIGHT to question authority.

Agree with all of this! Mirrors my own thoughts almost exactly.

 

[Xeon]

Yes free man all think that. What's your point?

Also yes, freedom is our right protected by the highest law of the land and by our very existence.

But I guess slaves wouldn't know that.

Maybe "free men" need to change their point of view so that the number of new cases in the country wouldn't hit 6 effing figures daily with no end in sight? With the USPS crippled and packages taking weeks to ship domestically? "Freedom" is a lie believed by many. There is no true freedom in any country, including ones whereby the political parties take turns to play good cop bad cop every 4 years (but it's still the same lol). It's an illusion.

 

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[AFMKelvin]

Maybe "free men" need to change their point of view so that the number of new cases in the country wouldn't hit 6 effing figures daily with no end in sight? With the USPS crippled and packages taking weeks to ship domestically? "Freedom" is a lie believed by many. There is no true freedom in any country, including ones whereby the political parties take turns to play good cop bad cop every 4 years (but it's still the same lol). It's an illusion.

Right, so you wouldn't have a problem moving to Cuba or North Korean than? Yes the two party political system is joke and the founding fathers knew all too well what could happen with a young nation like the US. That's why they protected certain freedoms for us in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. But you're more than eager to give those away for a christmas present that's stuck in the mail.

Edit: Oh wait you're from Singapore. Discussion is over, moving on.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

Can someone smarter than me please explain how this won't result in the government using COVID vaccines as a means to oppress the general population? There's been talk that country-wide scaling of vaccines will take years. In the meantime, these bureaucratic dickheads are slowly building out our cages - using the vaccine as a proxy to control us.

'Vaccine passport' needed to fly? | LinkedIn

A Geneva-based nonprofit is teaming up with airlines and The World Economic Forum to create a "vaccine passport" to ease pandemic air travel.

www.linkedin.com

They will absolutely use it to control us.

How do I know?

Because they’ve already been doing it for almost a year now.

Our government’s total disdain for freedom and for citizens is the main reason 2020 sucked so bad. I mean, it kind of feels like they hate us.

That includes private businesses.

 

[BellaPippin]

You know America would've never been a country if the founding fathers did what you're telling people to do.

You do realize that G. Washington made inoculation against smallpox MANDATORY and that had a tremendous impact in the outcome of the Revolutionary War, right? Because by your logic he was violating everyone's rights, but he actually stopped the Continental Army from dropping dead to a disease and put them back to fighting the British. Imagine if the people/troops had been like "omg he's infecting us with the virus?!?! Don't tread on me bro"


Can we like, come back from Extremeland and see the shades of grey? We agree on a government and certain laws so we can co-habitate in a society. Right now half the people are going around infecting people and themselves to make what point? That you can do what you want, when you want it, how you want it? That nobody can tell you to do something that is for the common well-being or else we're on our way to "1984: The Live Action"?

Vaccines have side effects, albeit extra low-- everything has side effects and weird shit inside, most modern medicine and drugs are based on the premise that the benefit outweighs the risks and so it gets approved. Birth control has so many side effects that manifest on a major portion of users and here we are. F*ck, look at any medicine ad....How many of you smoked tobacco, or even got second hand smoke from someone? How many of you drink alcohol, smoke pot, drink Coke, eat Ramen noodles, chips, snickers, blah blah, are recovering junkies or know someone, etc etc. We inject our poultry and cattle with a plethora of things. We don't know the long term effects of pot on the still-developing brain and I don't see people protesting against it but I do hear of a lot of teens living the stoned life. People try experimental drugs and treatments all the time without knowing the long term effect because the benefit of it working is more important.

Now there's finally a vaccine for this stupid flu and suddenly your body is a temple or else we've fallen under an authoritarian regime?

People laughed at the doctor that first suggested nurses washing their hands before baby deliveries had direct impact on the number of infections and mortality from labor. Yet here we are, now we know bacteria exists. It's not "sheepish" to stay at home or cover your mouth and nose at public places for wanting less people to get sick at a time. Last time I checked there was no protests for NO SHIRT NO SERVICE or dress code in venues but get asked to wear a mask and apparently next thing you know you'll have a barcode tattooed on your forehead.

Nobody wants to become Cuba just because they agree to stay at home AND nobody wants this to become No Man's Land either with absolutely no order. As if we needed the newer generations to come to be even MORE entitled brats.

Can we shift down a gear with the catastrophic, binary thinking? At the end of the day both sides keep repeating their own "mainstream media" half of the circle jerk and you know it.

 

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[MA81]

You do realize that G. Washington made inoculation against smallpox MANDATORY and that had a tremendous impact in the outcome of the Revolutionary War, right? Because by your logic he was violating everyone's rights, but he actually stopped the Continental Army from dropping dead to a disease and put them back to fighting the British. Imagine if the people/troops had been like "omg he's infecting us with the virus?!?! Don't tread on me bro"


Can we like, come back from Extremeland and see the shades of grey? We agree on a government and certain laws so we can co-habitate in a society. Right now half the people are going around infecting people and themselves to make what point? That you can do what you want, when you want it, how you want it? That nobody can tell you to do something that is for the common well-being or else we're on our way to "1984: The Live Action"?

Vaccines have side effects, albeit extra low-- everything has side effects and weird shit inside, most modern medicine and drugs are based on the premise that the benefit outweighs the risks and so it gets approved. Birth control has so many side effects that manifest on a major portion of users and here we are. f*ck, look at any medicine ad....How many of you smoked tobacco, or even got second hand smoke from someone? How many of you drink alcohol, smoke pot, drink Coke, eat Ramen noodles, chips, snickers, blah blah, are recovering junkies or know someone, etc etc. We inject our poultry and cattle with a plethora of things. We don't know the long term effects of pot on the still-developing brain and I don't see people protesting against it but I do hear of a lot of teens living the stoned life. People try experimental drugs and treatments all the time without knowing the long term effect because the benefit of it working is more important.

Now there's finally a vaccine for this stupid flu and suddenly your body is a temple or else we've fallen under an authoritarian regime?

People laughed at the doctor that first suggested nurses washing their hands before baby deliveries had direct impact on the number of infections and mortality from labor. Yet here we are, now we know bacteria exists. It's not "sheepish" to stay at home or cover your mouth and nose at public places for wanting less people to get sick at a time. Last time I checked there was no protests for NO SHIRT NO SERVICE or dress code in venues but get asked to wear a mask and apparently next thing you know you'll have a barcode tattooed on your forehead.

Nobody wants to become Cuba just because they agree to stay at home AND nobody wants this to become No Man's Land either with absolutely no order. As if we needed the newer generations to come to be even MORE entitled brats.

Can we shift down a gear with the catastrophic, binary thinking? At the end of the day both sides keep repeating their own "mainstream media" half of the circle jerk and you know it.

 

[Kal-El1998]

You do realize that G. Washington made inoculation against smallpox MANDATORY and that had a tremendous impact in the outcome of the Revolutionary War, right? Because by your logic he was violating everyone's rights, but he actually stopped the Continental Army from dropping dead to a disease and put them back to fighting the British. Imagine if the people/troops had been like "omg he's infecting us with the virus?!?! Don't tread on me bro"


Can we like, come back from Extremeland and see the shades of grey? We agree on a government and certain laws so we can co-habitate in a society. Right now half the people are going around infecting people and themselves to make what point? That you can do what you want, when you want it, how you want it? That nobody can tell you to do something that is for the common well-being or else we're on our way to "1984: The Live Action"?

Vaccines have side effects, albeit extra low-- everything has side effects and weird shit inside, most modern medicine and drugs are based on the premise that the benefit outweighs the risks and so it gets approved. Birth control has so many side effects that manifest on a major portion of users and here we are. f*ck, look at any medicine ad....How many of you smoked tobacco, or even got second hand smoke from someone? How many of you drink alcohol, smoke pot, drink Coke, eat Ramen noodles, chips, snickers, blah blah, are recovering junkies or know someone, etc etc. We inject our poultry and cattle with a plethora of things. We don't know the long term effects of pot on the still-developing brain and I don't see people protesting against it but I do hear of a lot of teens living the stoned life. People try experimental drugs and treatments all the time without knowing the long term effect because the benefit of it working is more important.

Now there's finally a vaccine for this stupid flu and suddenly your body is a temple or else we've fallen under an authoritarian regime?

People laughed at the doctor that first suggested nurses washing their hands before baby deliveries had direct impact on the number of infections and mortality from labor. Yet here we are, now we know bacteria exists. It's not "sheepish" to stay at home or cover your mouth and nose at public places for wanting less people to get sick at a time. Last time I checked there was no protests for NO SHIRT NO SERVICE or dress code in venues but get asked to wear a mask and apparently next thing you know you'll have a barcode tattooed on your forehead.

Nobody wants to become Cuba just because they agree to stay at home AND nobody wants this to become No Man's Land either with absolutely no order. As if we needed the newer generations to come to be even MORE entitled brats.

Can we shift down a gear with the catastrophic, binary thinking? At the end of the day both sides keep repeating their own "mainstream media" half of the circle jerk and you know it.

You are making ignorant conflations. Covid is nowhere near equivalent to smallpox. Secondly we are absolutely on our way to 1984, it doesn't take a genius to see it. Have you even checked the book out yourself?

Last I checked, chicago is super communist and yet you guys still manage to have some of the most cases despite all your "precautions".

It's a joke honestly. Masks don't help Fauci even wrote about it in 08.

People like you are just being willfully ignorant at this point...

Look anywhere else but the sell out mainstream media and you'd see everything for what it is.

 

[Xeon]

This is good news. Hope there'll be more like them to get vaxinated and bring the pandemic to an end. This way, the economy will slowly get back up, USPS and factories in the US can resume their operations and bring commerce back to pre-Covid times! Hallelujah!

 

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[Deleted74338]

Also, I wonder what would happen to the amish and other populations who don't vaccinate ? They will be banned from moving around the world ? That is some serious human rights violation.

No, its not a human rights violation. Those rules are for our safety.

 

[Kak]

No, its not a human rights violation. Those rules are for our safety.

Wow, such a bold declaration devoid of any thought beyond the surface, if that's all it takes for the majority to tow the line... We are in big trouble.

I suppose those views come with a dash of "we are all going to die from climate change in 12 years."

 

[Deleted74338]

Wow, such a bold declaration devoid of any thought beyond the surface, if that's all it takes for the majority to tow the line... We are in big trouble.

I suppose those views come with a dash of "we are all going to die from climate change in 12 years."

View attachment 36178

So what should my views be?

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

So what should my views be?

You should take responsibility for your own safety instead of outsourcing it to unaccountable and unidentifiable “experts.”

 

[eliquid]

You don't get to choose customers based on their medical history. You have no right to know that, unless of course you're their doctor.

^^ Exactly right. Amen.

I remember trying to call my health insurance about a bill I got for my minor daughter several years ago.

Me being HER FATHER and also the Insurance owner ( payer of the account, the main holder ) was told I am not allowed to know what the service was. Due to HIPPA.

I even called the doctor and asked his office since I could not get info from the Insurance company. I was told the same thing.....

If I the father and payer of the insurance can not find out what procedure this was to valid a bill to pay, why should now a random business get to know my minor daughters medical history to do business with her?

This isn't something that gets coordinated by those people. The government says "hey Booz Allen Hamilton, create this strategy for us", and Harvard MBAs and PhDs set about crafting something to hand off. Look no further than McKinsey as a source of third-party providers for government control strategy.

^^ Amen to this too. This is exactly how this happens.

If government was behind everything, we wouldn't have special interest lobbying, correct?

I thought we just called that capitalism. Isn't that the argument where we get to pick and choose our customers?

^^ We don't.

If I refused a person of a certain religion, gender, sexual preference.. I would more than likely get "shut down" in some way. Either by government or cancel culture or similar, see this: Supreme Court rules on narrow grounds for baker who refused to create same-sex couple's wedding cake

While they voted in his favor in the end, it took years of turmoil and loss.

Not too many people would be able to outlast years of a lawsuit and online defamation. That's basically shutting you down...

There are other examples of this in history as well.

 

[eliquid]

You do realize that G. Washington made inoculation against smallpox MANDATORY and that had a tremendous impact in the outcome of the Revolutionary War, right? Because by your logic he was violating everyone's rights, but he actually stopped the Continental Army from dropping dead to a disease and put them back to fighting the British. Imagine if the people/troops had been like "omg he's infecting us with the virus?!?! Don't tread on me bro"

With all due respect, you leave out 1 major thing.

George Washington was the commander in chief of the troops.

He mandated the troops get the smallpox vaccine. ( not everyone in the USA )

This is no different than my son, who is in the Army under the commander in chief, being told he needs the vaccine and getting it. Which BTW the Army does for a lot of things when you enlist.

George Washington did not MAKE every American take the vaccine or demand it. He did his troops that he was in control of, which is no different than now in the military.

GW wasn't violating everyone's rights. He has control of his troops. Supreme control. He didn't have that for all Americans, and knew this. Ordering your military troops ( where you are their commander in chief ) to do X is different than "ordering" all Americans to do X as the President.

Your argument has some major flaws @BellaPippin that should be re-evaluated.

 

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[Saavedra]

Because its basic social contract sort of stuff?

Drive a car? Licence

Own property? Taxes for the local community

Y'all read too many "very smart" blogs and watch too much damn youtube.

Its messenger rna in a lipid bilayer for delivery.

If you've had any of your childhood vaccines you've had attenuated virus (mmr for instance) meaning bits of viral DNA and the nucleic capsid injected in you.

If you've never had any vaccine you've also had both viral dna and messenger rna inside of you just from fighting off infections. If anything using just the messenger rna of the spike protein is a more targeted approach , in fact , we just rolled out a cold virus vaccine in 9 months , this is like a moon landing for virology and public health , we should have a ticker tape parade.

But i'm sure enough people will avoid the vaccine because "some blogger / random guy on youtube said big words" that i'm gonna still need to wear a mask this time next year , thanks a lot! Lol

Whats the conspiracy? All the phd's and md's studying viruses the world over are under the thrall of an evil NWO cabal and every other human being eduxated in basic biology and health science is in on it?

Heres jonas salk , the nefarious villain who specifically didn't patent the polio vaccine or make a penny from it , that humanitarian monster! , he is truly the godfather of this entire evil scheme to prevent deaths in a simple and empirically founded way!

Ever hear of norman borlaug? The sinister fellow fathered rhe green revolution and used *gasp* science to prevent untold millions from starving! Damn you scientific method! Damn you to hell!!!

Or the more rational take that "injections are a weird scary thing" and it gives people an ego boost to pretend to be "in the know" by following conspiracy theories? (Which btw are , AGAIN being touted by facebook memes and random nobody conspiracy bloggers and youtubers) , what exactly has alex jones done for mankind that has earned him.our trust and admiration? Does alex jones have security clearance thats given him special lnowledge? An iq of 280 and 6 phd's? Nah? Just some schmuck who capitalized on 9/11 using public access?

So why exactly are random strangers on the internet spinning yarns a good solid source of actionable life advise? , maybe i'm in the wrong business , I should just start a youtube or a podcast and make completely baseless claims and then sell overpriced supplements!

You have a supercomputer in your pocket and we derive energy from nuclear fission but god damn if you're going to take part in The medical miracle of vaccines!

Heres reality
Here , more objective reality , actual things

Seriously take a biology 101 class and get it together , the governments "focring" you to get the vaccine to fly? , you know f*cking defying gravity in a giant metal tube (but thats not also science right?) Isn't a "right" , like other human beings exist and would sort of like the virus to not keep spreading and infecting people?

It's always such a bizarre thing for me to be on these entrepreneur forums.and see the most basic unreflecrive ayn rand take on libertarianism from people.

Not a personal attack btw 404 I just think you're premise is way way off.

Vaccine as a proxy to control us? , we have a gps enabled device in our pocket with a camera and a mic that we use to record and share our most personal intimate details on the internet.

If the government wants to start black bagging folks in the middle of the night they won't need some "sneaky" public health measure to do it.

C'mon people use a little critical thinking for a second.

99% survival rate doesn't entitle such an overreaction. Both the flu outbreak of 58 and 68 were worse than this and there were no lockdowns or public outcry.

https://www.who.int/influenza/preparedness/pandemic/GIP_PandemicInfluenzaRiskManagementInterimGuidance_Jun2013.pdf?ua=19

 

[eliquid]

Can we like, come back from Extremeland and see the shades of grey? We agree on a government and certain laws so we can co-habitate in a society. Right now half the people are going around infecting people and themselves to make what point? That you can do what you want, when you want it, how you want it? That nobody can tell you to do something that is for the common well-being or else we're on our way to "1984: The Live Action"?

The main thing is, you said "We agree on a government and certain laws so we can co-habitate in a society".

Right now, half of us DONT AGREE on a government or certain laws. We can't co-habitate with the ways things are now at this moment.

You are basically saying we all get to vote and function daily ( by agreement ) on the ways things should be ( our government and laws ) so we can all be happy and get along ( co-habitate ) with each other ( society ).

But then you act as if the half that doesn't want to wear mask and go along with these rules, that something is wrong with them?

I thought we all got to "agree" on things? Where is our voice heard? When do we get to demand something of you and force you to do X Y or Z?

I didn't agree to this. I didn't vote for this. Why should I succumb to your half ( or the other half ), when you just said we all get to agree? The side that doesn't agree is just suppose to shut up and go along and do what the other side "demands" of us?

Ha.

 

[Xeon]

So what should my views be?

Perhaps do what some of these guys are doing : constantly live in fear of "evil governments" trying to "oppress you" and "take away your freedom".

Wear masks? Gov oppression.
Vaccine? Gov oppression.
An eventual cure for Covid? Gov oppression.
Stay home to prevent infecting others and lessen the burden on medical staff ? Gov oppression.
Safety distancing to slow down Covid infection? Gov oppression.
Lockdown cities to slow Covid spread? Gov oppression. Gov taking away the people's freedom.

"Freedom" and "human rights" at all and any cost, even if it means 800,000 cases + 41000 deaths daily + gradual decline of economy and society. I doubt that's what freedom is supposed to mean.

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

There are certainly some naive people on this thread. Theres a thin line here between acting in public safety, and potentially alienating people from "polite society"

It's not the vaccine it self that I would argue here, its the precedent it's setting. It's getting people used to having the government and private enterprise to essentially force you to do things.

YES, I understand we have mandatory vaccines. YES I understand that you need vaccines in order to go to public school, And I have all of my vaccines. I am not antivax. And I'm glad we have modern medicine and vaccines. Polio, yellow fever, and measles sound extremely shitty.

But there is no argument this COVID vaccine was rushed, and created in 1/10th of the time it usually takes to create a vaccine. I would worry what steps they had to leave out in order to get a vaccine to market in 1 year instead of 10.

Those who are quick to say "JuSt MoVE On AnD AcCePt IT BrO" are playing a dangerous game. Again it's the precedent that's being set. You keep giving an inch, and each time you say "Just do it, what's the big deal."

It's people saying "Well, You don't HAVE to get a vaccine, BUT you just cant travel, go to concerts or public events, have a bank account, enter a business or get a job. This sets the precedent of social outcasts, who are essentially banned from polite society because they do not conform to government edicts.



No the mortality rate is absolutely relevant. We risk driving because it is EXTREMELY likely that we make it to our destination alive. There is a risk of getting into a fatal accident. We risk our lives each year during flu season, because it's overwhelmingly likely that you will survive the flu. It's not a black and white "Does it kill or does it not."

This type of "It kills a very small percentage of people, so we must fundamentally change the rules of society" thinking is exactly the problem we've been dealing with for nearly a year now. This also removes personally responsibility from the equation, Because you assume that others can't perform a risk analysis for them selves, and decide if they want to take the risk of getting sick.

We would save lives if we lowered all speed limits to 20mph. So why don't we do that to save lives? Because we choose convenience as a society. We do not bring our selves down to the lowest common denominator. We don't change the rules for everyone because YOU'RE afraid of the small risk of death. You choose for YOU to not drive, You don't choose for ME not to drive.

Am I a tinfoil hat, Alex Jones conspiracy theorist? Absolutely not, I look at this situation through the lens of logic and the understanding of human nature. Throughout history governments (aka groups of human beings) have become corrupt, damn near with out exception as far as I understand. If you think the governments of the world are benevolent and competent, and also care about you, I have a bridge to sell you. And peoples LACK of concern about a governing body telling you you HAVE to put this thing in your body that we rushed to create in 1/10th of the time we normally do, or else you can't join us in society, Is worrying.

I mostly agree with you 404. I don't think there are lizard people pulling the strings on some grand scripted conspiracy, I think this is just the latest version of human nature playing out. We have not fundamentally changed in thousands of years, What makes anyone think we're different than our ancestors, as far as our human instincts?

Sure we have iPhones and modern medicine, but our human nature is the same as the Romans and Egyptians. And I think people are RIGHT to question authority.

This was the best response on here.

If this were Reddit (ew), I’d give you an award!

It’s amazing how many people on this very forum give up their brains and listen to whatever the TV and the news companies tell them - almost like they never read Unscripted .

Also amazing how every argument they make is a straw man fallacy about the big old dummies who care about useless stuff like “freedom,” and “personal responsibility.”

What kind of amateurs have, ya know, actual values and their own opinions?

But you know, being slightly skeptical makes me a “conspiracy nut” or whatever. Lack of blind trust is just foolish. Right?

HOWEVER, it is great, and impressive, that these corporations were able to create a vaccine so quickly! Truly a marvelous thing.

There are two sides to everything.

The point is, use your brain.

Don’t just buy in without question. And definitely don’t assume the TV, your senator, Dr. Fauci, or whoever are telling the truth.

 

[lowtek]

Perhaps do what some of these guys are doing : constantly live in fear of "evil governments" trying to "oppress you" and "take away your freedom".

Wear masks? Gov oppression.
Vaccine? Gov oppression.
An eventual cure for Covid? Gov oppression.
Stay home to prevent infecting others and lessen the burden on medical staff ? Gov oppression.
Safety distancing to slow down Covid infection? Gov oppression.
Lockdown cities to slow Covid spread? Gov oppression. Gov taking away the people's freedom.

"Freedom" and "human rights" at all and any cost, even if it means 800,000 cases + 41000 deaths daily + gradual decline of economy and society. I doubt that's what freedom is supposed to mean.

This isn't meant to be an insult to your intelligence, so please don't take it as such. It's clear you're not attempting to construct a logical argument, rather you're doing a combination of emoting and parroting scripted dogma.

Here are a few problems:

1) Those that don't want to risk exposure to the virus should stay home. They are free to do so. They are not free to tell others to stay home, simply due to their own fear.
2) Freedom does mean that yes, people will die. We accept this each and every day. People die by a myriad of other ways: car accidents, heart disease, cancer, medical malpractice, accidents, firearms ... the list goes on.
3) The decline in the economy isn't due to the virus. It's due to the government's overreaction and shutting things down. There would certainly be a hit due to sick people not coming in to work, but nothing to the order of what we're seeing today.
4) The idea of the individual being sovereign over their own body is already encoded into law and culture. I don't want to touch the third rail here, but "my body my choice" is an ingrained slogan here in the west.

This is only scratching the surface of what is wrong with what you're saying.

It says you're in Singapore. If you're native to the region then the concept of freedom over all else is probably alien to you.

That's perfectly fine. It's just a cultural difference.

But, it does mean you don't have a dog in this fight. If you come from a society where the collective trumps the individual, then it shouldn't matter to you what happens over here in the west.

 

[eliquid]

Perhaps do what some of these guys are doing : constantly live in fear of "evil governments" trying to "oppress you" and "take away your freedom".

Wear masks? Gov oppression.
Vaccine? Gov oppression.
An eventual cure for Covid? Gov oppression.
Stay home to prevent infecting others and lessen the burden on medical staff ? Gov oppression.
Safety distancing to slow down Covid infection? Gov oppression.
Lockdown cities to slow Covid spread? Gov oppression. Gov taking away the people's freedom.

"Freedom" and "human rights" at all and any cost, even if it means 800,000 cases + 41000 deaths daily + gradual decline of economy and society. I doubt that's what freedom is supposed to mean.

Taken from Wikipedia...

Oppression is malicious or unjust treatment or exercise of power, often under the guise of governmental authority or cultural opprobrium

So Oppression can be an exercise of power, under the guise of government authority.

Ok.

Who is telling me to wear a mask and social distance? The government.

Is the government exercising their power? Yes.

By the definition, YES you are right.. this is government oppression.


--Especially when I can walk into ANY restaurant in the USA with a mask on and sit down at a table and take my mask off to eat. With others walking around me ( to the restroom or sitting down ) or eating around me ( maybe at a table 6 feet away ) with their masks off too... Doesn't seem to damn safe to me!

-- Especially when I can walk into a Costo or Walmart or Kroger and have people walking around me ( with masks on ) getting groceries and household items bumping into me and around me... Doesn't seem to damn safe to me!

-- But for some reason I can't attend my church, who also requires masks or 6 feet social distancing ( sectioned off pews ) which was told to me by my government ( that later had to be overruled by a JUDGE ). Or that I can't have more than X number of people in my home for Christmas, when I can walk into Walmart and be surrounded by 100's more? How is this different to many other places I am allowed to go to?

So yes, this is government oppression and cultural opprobrium.

.

 

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[AFMKelvin]

You do realize that G. Washington made inoculation against smallpox MANDATORY and that had a tremendous impact in the outcome of the Revolutionary War, right? Because by your logic he was violating everyone's rights, but he actually stopped the Continental Army from dropping dead to a disease and put them back to fighting the British. Imagine if the people/troops had been like "omg he's infecting us with the virus?!?! Don't tread on me bro"


Can we like, come back from Extremeland and see the shades of grey? We agree on a government and certain laws so we can co-habitate in a society. Right now half the people are going around infecting people and themselves to make what point? That you can do what you want, when you want it, how you want it? That nobody can tell you to do something that is for the common well-being or else we're on our way to "1984: The Live Action"?

Vaccines have side effects, albeit extra low-- everything has side effects and weird shit inside, most modern medicine and drugs are based on the premise that the benefit outweighs the risks and so it gets approved. Birth control has so many side effects that manifest on a major portion of users and here we are. f*ck, look at any medicine ad....How many of you smoked tobacco, or even got second hand smoke from someone? How many of you drink alcohol, smoke pot, drink Coke, eat Ramen noodles, chips, snickers, blah blah, are recovering junkies or know someone, etc etc. We inject our poultry and cattle with a plethora of things. We don't know the long term effects of pot on the still-developing brain and I don't see people protesting against it but I do hear of a lot of teens living the stoned life. People try experimental drugs and treatments all the time without knowing the long term effect because the benefit of it working is more important.

Now there's finally a vaccine for this stupid flu and suddenly your body is a temple or else we've fallen under an authoritarian regime?

People laughed at the doctor that first suggested nurses washing their hands before baby deliveries had direct impact on the number of infections and mortality from labor. Yet here we are, now we know bacteria exists. It's not "sheepish" to stay at home or cover your mouth and nose at public places for wanting less people to get sick at a time. Last time I checked there was no protests for NO SHIRT NO SERVICE or dress code in venues but get asked to wear a mask and apparently next thing you know you'll have a barcode tattooed on your forehead.

Nobody wants to become Cuba just because they agree to stay at home AND nobody wants this to become No Man's Land either with absolutely no order. As if we needed the newer generations to come to be even MORE entitled brats.

Can we shift down a gear with the catastrophic, binary thinking? At the end of the day both sides keep repeating their own "mainstream media" half of the circle jerk and you know it.

Now that you're done with your emotional fuel rant let's talk without making all the extreme assumptions you made in this your post.

George Washington was not vaccinating people he was inoculating them. Two different methods. And he only did it for his army not the rest of the country. Yes we have agreed on the government and certain laws and they've have been ignored by politicians across the country in 2020 over a "pandemic." What's the point of having laws and government if people getting the sniffles causes them to be ignored?

Funny you mention 1984 because 2020 looked like 1984. Here's Dr. Fauci (Ministry of Health) saying healthy people don't need a mask. A few weeks later the Ministry of Health tells everyone that they do need a mask and people act like its was always normal. Funny how decades of medical research seemingly changed over night.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRa6t_e7dgI&feature=youtu.be


Medicine, birth control, smoking tobacco, smoking pot, coke drinking, eating industrial animals injected with hormones, experimental drugs and treatment. Guess what? I don't do any of that. Everything you listed is not government enforced. People choose to consume everything you listed. All this assumptions you made have no correlation with C0VlD-19 so why bring them up? I don't eat even noodles or drink alcohol. The meat that I eat is all organic, that I grow and slaughter myself. It's my choice not to partake in everything you listed and I'll like to keep it that way when it comes to vaccines too. I'll like to exercise my right to choose what goes into my body and if I choose not to receive the vaccine I'll like my choice to be respected without consequences. My body, my choice. Also if you get vaxinated then great news you're now immune to the virus right? So me not been vaxinated shouldn't be a problem.

It's not the mask that I'm afraid of, is what comes after the government learns that they can force people to wear a mask that I'm afraid of. Of course I don't want this to become a no man's land we already have the highest law of the land, the Constitution. You claim you don't want the US to become Cuba but you're too blind to see that we experienced a bit of Cuba on American soil throughout 2020.

Good job shaming people standing up for their rights by calling them "entitled." If standing up for my rights is entitlement, than I guess I am entitled. Yes I would like for you to calm down with your catastrophic binary thinking also. And I don't watch "mainstream" media so I don't know what you're talking about when it comes to talking points of the mainstream media. It seems like you're self projecting there.

Also try not to use profanity to get your point across. People will take you more seriously.

 

[Deleted74338]

This was the best response on here.

If this were Reddit (ew), I’d give you an award!

It’s amazing how many people on this very forum give up their brains and listen to whatever the TV and the news companies tell them - almost like they never read Unscripted .

Also amazing how every argument they make is a straw man fallacy about the big old dummies who care about useless stuff like “freedom,” and “personal responsibility.”

What kind of amateurs have, ya know, actual values and their own opinions?

So our opinions are valid only if they are the opposite of what the media says?

 

[AFMKelvin]

No, its not a human rights violation. Those rules are for our safety.

And by the way

 

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[BizyDad]

We have an obligation as free willed individuals to reject it all.

That sounds like a different kind of script.

Question authority? I agree.

Reject it all? That's just a different way of not using your brain.

I thought we just called that capitalism. Isn't that the argument where we get to pick and choose our customers?

Depends if the business or the government is doing the choosing, and on what basis you are discriminating.

were injected with a virus from your government.

That's not how this vaccine works, but your point stands.

freedom is our right protected by the highest law of the land and by our very existence.

Only certain freedoms are rights. Not sure our existence protects them, else there would be no slaves...

Xeon's statement that true freedom doesn't exist is accurate, even if he is from Singapore. You repeatedly attacking people's location is pedantic.

That's why they protected certain freedoms for us in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

And this rings hollow considering actual slavery was still allowed until the 13th amendment.

I love my country, and I appreciate immensely what the founders accomplished, but let's not pick and choose our facts just to win a debate.

This country has had different standards of freedom for different people for as long as it has been in existence.

That said, we are living in a time where even out highest laws are apparently not protecting our rights. I'm sympathetic to your point of view.

But Xeon's critique that freedom is an illusion hits hard if you really give it any real thought. And it is precisely because it does that we should be vigilant.

Can someone smarter than me please explain how this won't result in the government using COVID vaccines as a means to oppress the general population? There's been talk that country-wide scaling of vaccines will take years. In the meantime, these bureaucratic dickheads are slowly building out our cages - using the vaccine as a proxy to control us.

'Vaccine passport' needed to fly? | LinkedIn

A Geneva-based nonprofit is teaming up with airlines and The World Economic Forum to create a "vaccine passport" to ease pandemic air travel.

www.linkedin.com

Because this has happened before.

A hundred years ago many of these same debates took place. Government took many measures restricting personal liberties.

The era, and situations like it, inspired a generation of authors to write about government overreach, and today we cite those authors as evidence in our discussions.

And here we are again.

Only time will tell if it country accepts this as another benign vaccine or denounces it as some twisted scarlet letter/Tuskegee/japanese round up type situation, but I'm guessing the first is more likely.

Let's be honest. The "general population" won't see this as an oppression. We already submit to x-rays in airports, most people won't fight this.

You do realize that G. Washington made inoculation against smallpox MANDATORY and that had a tremendous impact in the outcome of the Revolutionary War, right? Because by your logic he was violating everyone's rights, but he actually stopped the Continental Army from dropping dead to a disease and put them back to fighting the British. Imagine if the people/troops had been like "omg he's infecting us with the virus?!?! Don't tread on me bro"


Can we like, come back from Extremeland and see the shades of grey? We agree on a government and certain laws so we can co-habitate in a society. Right now half the people are going around infecting people and themselves to make what point? That you can do what you want, when you want it, how you want it? That nobody can tell you to do something that is for the common well-being or else we're on our way to "1984: The Live Action"?

Vaccines have side effects, albeit extra low-- everything has side effects and weird shit inside, most modern medicine and drugs are based on the premise that the benefit outweighs the risks and so it gets approved. Birth control has so many side effects that manifest on a major portion of users and here we are. f*ck, look at any medicine ad....How many of you smoked tobacco, or even got second hand smoke from someone? How many of you drink alcohol, smoke pot, drink Coke, eat Ramen noodles, chips, snickers, blah blah, are recovering junkies or know someone, etc etc. We inject our poultry and cattle with a plethora of things. We don't know the long term effects of pot on the still-developing brain and I don't see people protesting against it but I do hear of a lot of teens living the stoned life. People try experimental drugs and treatments all the time without knowing the long term effect because the benefit of it working is more important.

Now there's finally a vaccine for this stupid flu and suddenly your body is a temple or else we've fallen under an authoritarian regime?

People laughed at the doctor that first suggested nurses washing their hands before baby deliveries had direct impact on the number of infections and mortality from labor. Yet here we are, now we know bacteria exists. It's not "sheepish" to stay at home or cover your mouth and nose at public places for wanting less people to get sick at a time. Last time I checked there was no protests for NO SHIRT NO SERVICE or dress code in venues but get asked to wear a mask and apparently next thing you know you'll have a barcode tattooed on your forehead.

Nobody wants to become Cuba just because they agree to stay at home AND nobody wants this to become No Man's Land either with absolutely no order. As if we needed the newer generations to come to be even MORE entitled brats.

Can we shift down a gear with the catastrophic, binary thinking? At the end of the day both sides keep repeating their own "mainstream media" half of the circle jerk and you know it.

Epic. Maybe my favorite BP post ever. Made me lol 4x.

And yes, my body is a temple.

You are making ignorant conflations. Covid is nowhere near equivalent to smallpox. Secondly we are absolutely on our way to 1984, it doesn't take a genius to see it.

Can you prove we are headed to 1984 or is that just an ignorant conflation?

chicago is super communist

Super? As in the epitome of communism on earth today? Did private ownership get abolished in Chicago when no one was looking?

Golly gee willikers Superman it's a good thing you are around to save us.

And seriously, what's with the trend of attacking where people are from?

With all due respect, you leave out 1 major thing.

George Washington was the commander in chief of the troops.

He mandated the troops get the smallpox vaccine. ( not everyone in the USA )

This is no different than my son, who is in the Army under the commander in chief, being told he needs the vaccine and getting it. Which BTW the Army does for a lot of things when you enlist.

George Washington did not MAKE every American take the vaccine or demand it. He did his troops that he was in control of, which is no different than now in the military.

GW wasn't violating everyone's rights. He has control of his troops. Supreme control. He didn't have that for all Americans, and knew this. Ordering your military troops ( where you are their commander in chief ) to do X is different than "ordering" all Americans to do X as the President.

Your argument has some major flaws @BellaPippin that should be re-evaluated.

I don't think she compared Washington to a universal government mandate.

And I think the parallels are actually more than you're giving it credit.

When Washington took this step, it wasn't vaccination. It was inoculation. Which was far from proven science. It was a governmental funded experiment to hopefully help protect the troops.

The Washington absolutely took steps that restricted civilian movement if anyone showed signs of having the smallpox. He did this to prevent the spread.

I'm sure if Washington had contact tracing and technology, he'd have used it in this case.

of course the government never fully mandated that everyone must get vaxinated. And they aren't now either.

However they did specify that people need to get vaxinated in order to attend school.

People are up in arms about the precedent being set. But the precedent was set by the first president. Still it took 125 ish years before the country got tyrannical about vaccines.

How The 'Pox' Epidemic Changed Vaccination Rules

During the 1898-1904 pox epidemic, public health officials and policemen forced thousands of Americans to be vaxinated against their will. Historian Michael Willrich examines that epidemic's far-reaching implications for individual civil liberties in Pox: An American History.

www.npr.org

Steps like those eventually "eradicated" smallpox. And finally in 1972, the government stopped mandating smallpox vaccines for people.

Which is something that doesn't get brought up much.

The main thing is, you said "We agree on a government and certain laws so we can co-habitate in a society".

Right now, half of us DONT AGREE on a government or certain laws. We can't co-habitate with the ways things are now at this moment.

You are basically saying we all get to vote and function daily ( by agreement ) on the ways things should be ( our government and laws ) so we can all be happy and get along ( co-habitate ) with each other ( society ).

But then you act as if the half that doesn't want to wear mask and go along with these rules, that something is wrong with them?

I thought we all got to "agree" on things?

I didn't agree to this. I didn't vote for this. Why should I succumb to your half ( or the other half ), when you just said we all get to agree? The side that doesn't agree is just suppose to shut up and go along and do what the other side "demands" of us?

Ha.

No. You're not supposed to shut up. Healthy debate is how we assure ourselves that we don't lead to tyranny.

BTW, she didn't say to shut up. She said that the issue isn't black and white. She wants both sides to be more moderate in their speech (if I understand her correctly).

That means both sides have something to say, and both sides should better appreciate the other's viewpoints.

And the debate continues. And will continue.

Which is why in 1992 the smallpox vaccine got reintroduced to military recruits.

And the cycle continues...

This isn't meant to be an insult to your intelligence, so please don't take it as such. It's clear you're not attempting to construct a logical argument, rather you're doing a combination of emoting and parroting scripted dogma.

Here are a few problems:

1) Those that don't want to risk exposure to the virus should stay home. They are free to do so. They are not free to tell others to stay home, simply due to their own fear.
2) Freedom does mean that yes, people will die. We accept this each and every day. People die by a myriad of other ways: car accidents, heart disease, cancer, medical malpractice, accidents, firearms ... the list goes on.
3) The decline in the economy isn't due to the virus. It's due to the government's overreaction and shutting things down. There would certainly be a hit due to sick people not coming in to work, but nothing to the order of what we're seeing today.
4) The idea of the individual being sovereign over their own body is already encoded into law and culture. I don't want to touch the third rail here, but "my body my choice" is an ingrained slogan here in the west.

This is only scratching the surface of what is wrong with what you're saying.

It says you're in Singapore. If you're native to the region then the concept of freedom over all else is probably alien to you.

That's perfectly fine. It's just a cultural difference.

But, it does mean you don't have a dog in this fight. If you come from a society where the collective trumps the individual, then it shouldn't matter to you what happens over here in the west.

It shouldn't matter, until Western trade ships bring goods back and forth from Singapore. Maybe he does have a dog in the fight after all? He has repeatedly complained about the slowing of deliveries with USPS. So again, dog in the fight.

You're the third person to dismiss an opinion based on location.

Don't criticize someone else's logic at the beginning and then conclude with an ad hominem.

Now that you're done with your emotional fuel rant let's talk without making all the extreme assumptions you made in this your post.

George Washington was not vaccinating people he was inoculating them. Two different methods. And he only did it for his army not the rest of the country. Yes we have agreed on the government and certain laws and they've have been ignored by politicians across the country in 2020 over a "pandemic." What's the point of having laws and government if people getting the sniffles causes them to be ignored?

Funny you mention 1984 because 2020 looked like 1984. Here's Dr. Fauci (Ministry of Health) saying healthy people don't need a mask. A few weeks later the Ministry of Health tells everyone that they do need a mask and people act like its was always normal. Funny how decades of medical research seemly changed over night.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRa6t_e7dgI&feature=youtu.be


Medicine, birth control, smoking tobacco, smoking pot, coke drinking, eating industrial animals injected with hormones, experimental drugs and treatment. Guess what I don't do any of that. All this assumptions you made have no correlation with C0VlD-19 so why bring them in? I don't eat even noodles or drink alcohol. The meat that I eat is all organic, that I grow and slaughter myself. It's my choice not to partake in everything you listed and I'll like to keep it that way when it comes to vaccines too. I'll like to exercise my right to choose what goes into my body and if I choose not to receive the vaccine I'll like my choice to be respected without consequences. My body, my choice. Also if you're take the vaccine than great news you're not immune to the virus right? So me not been vaxinated shouldn't be a problem.

It's not the mask that I'm afraid is what comes after the government learns that they can force people to wear a mask that I'm afraid of. Of course I don't want this to become a no man's land we already have the highest law of the land, the Constitution. You claim you don't want the US to become Cuba but you're too blind to see that we experienced a bit of Cuba in American soil all throughout 2020.

Good job shaming people standing up for their rights by calling them "entitled." If standing up for my rights is entitlement, than I guess I am entitled. Yes I would like for you to calm down with your catastrophic binary thinking also. And I don't watch "mainstream" media so I don't know what you're talking about when it comes to talking points of the mainstream media. It seems like you're self projecting there.

Also try not to use profanity to get your point across. People will take you more seriously.

You still have the right not to get vaxinated. No one is taking that away from you.

Exercising that right comes with certain consequences.

But that is always the way of things.

 

[eliquid]

My body, my choice.

This

So much this.

Many leftists and feminists that are pro-choice get to fight for "my body my choice".

But when another group wants the same freedoms against wearing a mask ( my body, my choice ) or going out in a pandemic ( again, my body my choice ), we are looked down on and called conspiracy theorists and ignorant because we don't "science" enough.

We allow one, but not the other.

So rich...

 

[eliquid]

No. You're not supposed to shut up. Healthy debate is how we assure ourselves that we don't lead to tyranny.

BTW, she didn't say to shut up. She said that the issue isn't black and white. She wants both sides to be more moderate in their speech (if I understand her correctly).

That means both sides have something to say, and both sides should better appreciate the other's viewpoints.

And the debate continues. And will continue.

Which is why in 1992 the smallpox vaccine got reintroduced to military recruits.

And the cycle continues...

This is not what she wanted.

Her post below:

We agree on a government and certain laws so we can co-habitate in a society. Right now half the people are going around infecting people and themselves to make what point? That you can do what you want, when you want it, how you want it? That nobody can tell you to do something that is for the common well-being or else we're on our way to "1984: The Live Action"?

There is nothing in the above, about the other side, that points to healthy debate, moderate speech, appreciating the other side's viewpoints, etc...

It's very clear what she is saying. Basically that the other side is doing what it wants, and for what?

Like our freedoms are worthless, no matter the reasoning behind it.

 

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[eliquid]

I don't think she compared Washington to a universal government mandate.

And I think the parallels are actually more than you're giving it credit.

When Washington took this step, it wasn't vaccination. It was inoculation. Which was far from proven science. It was a governmental funded experiment to hopefully help protect the troops.

The Washington absolutely took steps that restricted civilian movement if anyone showed signs of having the smallpox. He did this to prevent the spread.

I'm sure if Washington had contact tracing and technology, he'd have used it in this case.

of course the government never fully mandated that everyone must get vaxinated. And they aren't now either.

However they did specify that people need to get vaxinated in order to attend school.

People are up in arms about the precedent being set. But the precedent was set by the first president. Still it took 125 ish years before the country got tyrannical about vaccines.

Uhmm. yeah she did.

Wither it was vaccination or inoculation, the point behind the original post ( and you know this ) was prior, even our first president ( showing history of use ) FORCED a group of people to do X.

That could have been vaccination, inoculation, or a freakin colonoscopy. The point was government forcing a group of people to do something for the safety of others.

I know you get this.

But the major flaw was, she was presenting this as government forcing people to do X for the safety of others. Her example is flawed because the military is not the same as civilian life.

Her example that the Commander In Chief of the military orders a solider to do something during war, is not the same as my state Governor telling me ( a civilian ) I have to wear a mask or forbade me from church during a pandemic that 99% of people live from.

 

[Kak]

So our opinions are valid only if they are the opposite of what the media says?

Lobotomy.