Vaccines Required to Fly - The Beginning of More Intensive Government Control

[Simon Angel]

Someone watched "Utopia"

That said your point stands I just had to lol

I'm going to Google it now since you sparked my interest, but it's just an intrusive thought I keep having about the vaccine.

Probably due to the fact that Bill Gates took part in funding it and he's a well-known population culling enthusiast. Dan Brown's Inferno may have had an impact as well.

 

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[csalvato]

You guys are free and have the opportunity to do that in this country.

Where do you propose that someone can move in 2021 that is not faced with government regulation as to where they can dine, and has the freedom to decide to wear a mask?

Even the most libertarian (little l) of states have restrictions. Moving within the US is just an exercise of moving from heavy regulation to less heavy regulation.

I personally don’t know of any countries that are much better.

My wife and I explored this in earnest (we are both dual citizens and carry 2 passports, our kids carry 3) and the options are extremely limited.

 

[GatsbyMag]

Where do you propose that someone can move in 2021 that is not faced with government regulation as to where they can dine, and has the freedom to decide to wear a mask?

Even the most libertarian (little l) of states have restrictions. Moving within the US is just an exercise of moving from heavy regulation to less heavy regulation.

I personally don’t know of any countries that are much better.

My wife and I explored this in earnest (we are both dual citizens and carry 2 passports, our kids carry 3) and the options are extremely limited.

South Africa

 

[csalvato]

It is not about you or your rights. It is about other people. Nobody cares if you get drunk, or even get killed driving drunk (aka not taking the vaccine) but everyone cares if you kill someone driving drunk (aka infect people if you are sick because you didn't take the vaccine).

this is apples to oranges.

The way to not drive drunk is to abstain from drinking before you get behind the wheel.

The way to get inoculated is to trust a vaccine that was created in 1/10 - 1/20 the Normal time frame, cutting as many corners as possible for the promise of great profits with no liability if something were to go wrong.

TBH I’d rather have a confirmed COVID case cough right into my mouth and develop natural immunity.

South Africa

Oh delightful - trade the requirements to wear a mask to live in an incredibly violent culture. What a great option!

 

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[Simon Angel]

Oh delightful - trade the requirements to wear a mask to live in an incredibly violent culture. What a great option!

More violent than America's?

 

[csalvato]

More violent than America's?

Lol touché

but yes I believe so

 

[GuestUser4aMPs1]

Where do you propose that someone can move in 2021 that is not faced with government regulation as to where they can dine, and has the freedom to decide to wear a mask?

Florida.

It was heaven on earth

 

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[csalvato]

Florida.

It was heaven on earth

The southern Florida area is on our short list. The Mayor of Miami seems fantastic right now.

I'm still wary of staying in the 50 states given that they will all fall under the increasingly authoritarian federal government.

 

[AFMKelvin]

There is no "and", that's the answer he gave. What system do you propose, how could we realistically change it? Because you are a republic the states can still decide to do something about what they do not agree with. MJ is moving because of those reasons, right? To a state more friendly to what serves him, and that's great. You guys are free and have the opportunity to do that in this country. Companies move abroad where they can do business better, people move where taxes are lower, where it's more gun-friendly, etc. At least in that scenario you could say all the anti-vaxxers could be majority in some states, some other states would have more people that prefer to vaccinate, and the same with other issues. In reality I would say that's sort of how it works itself out more or less.

Otherwise again, honestly asking what do you think would be the solution in an actionable plan. Secession? That's the only thing I can think of at the moment, go Galt it? Again I'm just keeping it real here. Give me something other than a vague and ambiguous "do something" "fight the good fight".

And for the record, because I know it's a fallacy, I do know that majority of consensus doesn't make something right. I never claimed that. We can have an infinity of ethics-related discussions as to what is right and what is wrong for different people.



You need a certain percentage of people vaxinated in order to achieve herd immunity in the first place. Since this is a flu it's not going to be eradicated, but maybe a seasonal shot like we do with normal flu can lower the numbers and intensity to that of the flu, and then we can go back to "normal" (or closer to it) like they did in some other places. In a town, city or place where you and a few others are the only ones with a vaccine the disease is still going to be going around infecting people at a higher rate, causing people to call in sick more often, making children skip days of school, etc.

Again you could argue "my health isn't your responsibility" but from the other side people want to be able to be going around knowing there is less threat in the first place, especially the ones that would like the extra protection but cannot, such as immune-depressed people, people with respiratory diseases, elders, babies too young to be vaxinated, etc. If you have someone like that in your circles you probably wouldn't want that person to get it because they would be in trouble, even though most of of us just go past it just fine. I understand you guys believe in individualism, so do I, but man, I also care for my fellow neighbor some.

Now this could probably go with what I answered Kak, if a person has the opportunity moving to an area where there is more consensus on being vaxinated or vice versa this is probably the most practical and realistic solution.



I'm going to go with because it's not a pandemic and it's only recommended/requested that you take it if you go to certain places in Africa and South America. That's like you asking me why we're still not talking about Ebola. It's still killing people, so is Swine Flu, so is Malaria, so is Measles, it's just that it's under control, the whole globe isn't infected with it.



Not sure what you mean by "save a life" but this demonstration is pretty good on how the masks slow it down in closed spaces, I thought.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2azcn7MqOU





Seriously bro do you have anything to give me that isn't a personal attack? And I do not buy that you just eat apples or whatever every single day of your life or that you wash your hair and your hands with white vinegar.

Here's an article that is an insightful read regarding being a Constitutional Democracy/Republic: ‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument

I don't vouch for the article as a whole, I just think the part of what the Founding fathers published explaining what kind of government they wanted (basically the body of the article) sheds some light (can be fact checked by researching what they published) and aligns with what I'm saying, that it's supposed to be a CONTROLLED majority. Whether that is working efficiently nowadays is another topic by itself, like @Kak said.



Now I don't mean to be rude and just leave but I think we can agree that a ton of us should actually working on our Fastlane, I know I do if I want to quit my job.... so I'm just agreeing to disagree and hoping there can be some mutual understanding between people in general. Xoxo.

For someone who claims not to consume mainstream media you sure are linking plenty of it. Sorry I won't be reading a long winded explanation of some "journalist" telling me what type of government were under. The Constitution is written in plain English and I can read it from primary sources.

And yes I do make my own products like shampoos and deodorant from whole natural ingredients. I live in a farm where I grow my own food, from veggies to meat. I also don't drink nor allow my food to touch anything made of plastic because plastic releases some nasty chemicals. In fact I do my best to avoid anything made of plastic or heavily processed materials.

Now you're willing to compromised and find common ground but your first post was very divisive.

Lol? The US is a democratic republic. Democracy is an ideology whereas a republic is a form of government. They are not mutually exclusive.

No where is the word "democracy" mentioned in the Constitution. So no.

PS: We all know covid is a scientific experiment from the lizards that control governments which attempt to silence us with bio-weapons spread through the 5G network.

Duh.

Ridiculing those who won't go to the slaughter house. Typical.

it is insane the amount of time some users lost writing 3 pages of answer for something that does not matter.

And here it is. Someone who obviously doesn't care about freedoms telling those that do, what to think.

 

[MoneyDoc]

For someone who claims not to consume mainstream media you sure are linking plenty of it. Sorry I won't be reading a long winded explanation of some "journalist" telling me what type of government were under. The Constitution is written in plain English and I can read it from primary sources.

And yes I do make my own products like shampoos and deodorant from whole natural ingredients. I live in a farm where I grow my own food, from veggies to meat. I also don't drink nor allow my food to touch anything made of plastic because plastic releases some nasty chemicals. In fact I do my best to avoid anything made of plastic or heavily processed materials.

Now you're willing to compromised and find common ground but the first post you posted was very divisive.


No where is the word "democracy" mentioned in the Constitution. So no.


Ridiculing those who won't go to the slaughter house. Typical.


And here it is. Someone who obviously doesn't care about freedoms telling those that do what to think.

I don't know about the laws in Texas as I'm in Canada, but do you wear a mask when you go to the grocery store? Yes or no please.

 

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[AFMKelvin]

I don't know about the laws in Texas as I'm in Canada, but do you wear a mask when you go to the grocery store? Yes or no please.

No.

 

[MoneyDoc]

no

So I'm assuming Texas doesn't have a "mandatory mask" policy?

 

[AFMKelvin]

So I'm assuming Texas doesn't have a "mandatory mask" policy?

The state does not enforce mandatory masks on citizens. But they do enforce it on businesses. Most businesses don't care if you wear a mask or not, anymore.

 

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[MoneyDoc]

The state does not enforce mandatory masks on citizens. But they do enforce it on businesses. Most businesses don't care if you wear a mask or not, anymore.

Ah, okay.

 

[tpuffer]

You need a certain percentage of people vaxinated in order to achieve herd immunity in the first place. Since this is a flu it's not going to be eradicated, but maybe a seasonal shot like we do with normal flu can lower the numbers and intensity to that of the flu, and then we can go back to "normal" (or closer to it) like they did in some other places. In a town, city or place where you and a few others are the only ones with a vaccine the disease is still going to be going around infecting people at a higher rate, causing people to call in sick more often, making children skip days of school, etc.

Herd immunity is not only restricted to those whom are vaxinated. It also happens as those whom contract a disease and then build natural immunity via having been exposed.

Herd immunity occurs when a large portion of a community (the herd) becomes immune to a disease, making the spread of disease from person to person unlikely. As a result, the whole community becomes protected — not just those who are immune. From the Mayo Clinic website.

Flu virus and coronavirus are very different.

It will be interesting to see how the vaccine affects those who decide to get it. Hopefully we don't have situation with vaccine induced disease as there has been recently with polio.

Vaccine-derived polio spreads in Africa after defeat of wild virus

Fresh cases of disease linked to oral vaccine seen in Sudan, following outbreak in Chad

www.theguardian.com

The big problem with our managers in this country is that we are not doing PROPER Randomized Controlled Trials on less expensive remedies. We should be testing everything to verify efficacy. And not only during late stage of the disease, but early, and middle. Lots of $$$ to made from a vaccine - could this be a reason that "only the vaccine will allow us to go back to normal" - Up for debate I suppose.

It's been mentioned already, but I take big issue with the fact that there is effectively ZERO liability that vaccine makers have.

I wish there was a return to "normal". Haha. There has never been a normal year throughout history.This will be with us for the rest of our lives and will still be heavy for all of 2021 and probably 2022. Mentally prepare yourself for the long haul.

 

[WillHurtDontCare]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCiIc6i81uM

 

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[WillHurtDontCare]

Ok, I think I can answer OP's question.

Getting a vaccine to fly is like being forbidden to drive drunk.

It is not about you or your rights. It is about other people. Nobody cares if you get drunk, or even get killed driving drunk (aka not taking the vaccine) but everyone cares if you kill someone driving drunk (aka infect people if you are sick because you didn't take the vaccine).

For example, a French couple that had covid infected more than 100 people in Iceland. That is exactly what we want to avoid, hence, you must take the vaccine.

Iceland's infection rate spikes after French tourists blamed

The weekly infection rate per 100,000 people has risen from 7.3 to 89.7 in the space of 10 days, soaring over the threshold of 20.0 at which UK ministers will usually take action.

www.dailymail.co.uk

PS: We all know covid is a scientific experiment from the lizards that control governments which attempt to silence us with bio-weapons spread through the 5G network.

Duh.

Sackler family - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Opioid epidemic in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Good luck to you if you think that Big Pharma care about you.

 

[DiamondDog]

No where is the word "democracy" mentioned in the Constitution. So no.

The mere fact that government officials are elected by citizens makes it a representative democracy.

Just because the constitution doesn't especifically say the word democracy, it doesn't mean that it's not. US legislation (including the Constitution) is full of democratic ideals.

Sorry buddy but you're clearly out of your depth here. For someone who seems so patriotic, you should treasure democracy more. It's the foundation of all free countries.

 

[Deleted50669]

Ok, I think I can answer OP's question.

Getting a vaccine to fly is like being forbidden to drive drunk.

It is not about you or your rights. It is about other people. Nobody cares if you get drunk, or even get killed driving drunk (aka not taking the vaccine) but everyone cares if you kill someone driving drunk (aka infect people if you are sick because you didn't take the vaccine).

For example, a French couple that had covid infected more than 100 people in Iceland. That is exactly what we want to avoid, hence, you must take the vaccine.

Iceland's infection rate spikes after French tourists blamed

The weekly infection rate per 100,000 people has risen from 7.3 to 89.7 in the space of 10 days, soaring over the threshold of 20.0 at which UK ministers will usually take action.

www.dailymail.co.uk

PS: We all know covid is a scientific experiment from the lizards that control governments which attempt to silence us with bio-weapons spread through the 5G network.

Duh.

You're not American, so your input is pretty much null and void. This isn't about getting the vaccine to ride a plane. This is about the government using the vaccine as another step towards state oppression. If you were in America, and paying attention, of which neither appear to apply to you, it would be a readily apparent pattern to you as well.

 

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[csalvato]

Seriously take a biology 101 class and get it together

This self righteousness may literally be the death of you.

I'm trained as, and worked as, a biomedical engineer. I can tell you this vaccine scares the living shit out of me.

I don't care how many doctors, nurses, scientists and people who have taken "biology 101" you know or cite...I worked very closely with people in these fields and can definitively say they are not worthy of this god-like worship we bestow upon them as a society.

It's ok, I used to trust scientists too. Until cardiorespiratory scientists who have been published in peer reviewed journals would call me up for help and clearly not know the difference between an EKG and EMG signal.

Most people suck at their jobs. Only 1% of folks in any field are truly excellent. That's the definition of excellence. And that includes doctors, nurses, scientists and those folks who have taken "Biology 101"

 

[Xeon]

You're not American, so your input is pretty much null and void. This isn't about getting the vaccine to ride a plane. This is about the government using the vaccine as another step towards state oppression. If you were in America, and paying attention, of which neither appear to apply to you, it would be a readily apparent pattern to you as well.

Just because he (and some of us) aren't from the US, doesn't make our input "null and void".
Living deep in a continent and being detached from the rest of the world for too long makes one narrow-minded and unable to see things from other viewing angles.

One can talk about "state oppression" and "research papers that show wearing masks and lockdowns are useless" all day long. But the results prove otherwise:

Perhaps if the approach and thinking changes from "Me, My Freedom, My Liberty At All Costs" to "Let's cooperate with the gov just this once & get through this together once and for all", things would be better?

I mean, what freedom is there to speak of when the pandemic refuses to go down because people are fighting against the gov because of "state oppression"? Maybe get the daily cases down first, then go back to living a "free life"?

I apologise if this post is rude and "null and void" since I'm not American, but some of these thoughts and "ideals" are really WHAT. THE. F*ck. to me.

 

[Deleted50669]

Just because he (and some of us) aren't from the US, doesn't make our input "null and void".
Living deep in a continent and being detached from the rest of the world for too long makes one narrow-minded and unable to see things from other viewing angles.

One can talk about "state oppression" and "research papers that show wearing masks and lockdowns are useless" all day long. But the results prove otherwise:

Perhaps if the approach and thinking changes from "Me, My Freedom, My Liberty At All Costs" to "Let's cooperate with the gov just this once & get through this together once and for all", things would be better?

I mean, what freedom is there to speak of when the pandemic refuses to go down because people are fighting against the gov because of "state oppression"? Maybe get the daily cases down first, then go back to living a "free life"?

I apologise if this post is rude and "null and void" since I'm not American, but some of these thoughts and "ideals" are really WHAT. THE. f*ck. to me.

When you give a bureaucrat an inch they take a foot. There is no "going back to living a free life" when you surrender your freedoms. This is what people are not understanding. These changes will not be temporary.

 

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[Xeon]

When you give a bureaucrat an inch they take a foot. There is no "going back to living a free life" when you surrender your freedoms. This is what people are not understanding. These changes will not be temporary.

Ok I give up. This is your country and I genuinely hope things get better there soon.

 

[csalvato]

Just because he (and some of us) aren't from the US, doesn't make our input "null and void".
Living deep in a continent and being detached from the rest of the world for too long makes one narrow-minded and unable to see things from other viewing angles.

One can talk about "state oppression" and "research papers that show wearing masks and lockdowns are useless" all day long. But the results prove otherwise:

Perhaps if the approach and thinking changes from "Me, My Freedom, My Liberty At All Costs" to "Let's cooperate with the gov just this once & get through this together once and for all", things would be better?

I mean, what freedom is there to speak of when the pandemic refuses to go down because people are fighting against the gov because of "state oppression"? Maybe get the daily cases down first, then go back to living a "free life"?

I apologise if this post is rude and "null and void" since I'm not American, but some of these thoughts and "ideals" are really WHAT. THE. f*ck. to me.

You’re just proving the counterpoint.

We have been locked down, by in large, for 3 months to a year... but numbers still keep going up up up.

The mitigation methods are demonstrably not effective — because they either mechanically don’t work or because they are too hard to practically execute.

This isn’t the fault of “a**hole freedom fighters”, but the fault of the approach not being sound.

You simply can’t expect to lock people in their houses for a year and expect them to “just do as they are told”.

Soon, childcare and dining speakeasies are going to crop up, just watch.

Just like banning prostitution or drugs, the impracticalities are too great to overcome.

That’s discounting the fact that masks don’t even work unless we all wear n-95, and never touch the mask without sterilized gloves (which is a protocol of bio safety level 2 for a reason)

And, with all that in mind, you expect 100% of people to be on board with a rushed vaccine that has no liability?

Your expectations are far too high.

 

[Simon Angel]

This self righteousness may literally be the death of you.

I'm trained as, and worked as, a biomedical engineer. I can tell you this vaccine scares the living shit out of me.

I don't care how many doctors, nurses, scientists and people who have taken "biology 101" you know or cite...I worked very closely with people in these fields and can definitively say they are not worthy of this god-like worship we bestow upon them as a society.

It's ok, I used to trust scientists too. Until cardiorespiratory scientists who have been published in peer reviewed journals would call me up for help and clearly not know the difference between an EKG and EMG signal.

Most people suck at their jobs. Only 1% of folks in any field are truly excellent. That's the definition of excellence. And that includes doctors, nurses, scientists and those folks who have taken "Biology 101"

Agree, I have 0 faith in medical practitioners.

When I was dying I went through the worst all the way to the best world-renowned professionals in the country, and the depth of their knowledge was so shallow it was insane.

Apart from the surgeries for several complications, which I diagnosed and pushed for myself, they did nothing for me except peddle quality of life destroying, dangerous "treatment".

It's really scary how people blindly trust medical professionals. It shows a really flawed part of the system as well - that these people aren't there on merit. And it's even scarier that people get their advice about a virus from politicians and celebrities.

 

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[BizyDad]

There were no terms, it was an appointment. It could be ended at any time.

I believe this is wholly incorrect.

The original text did specify 6 year terms, that the terms be staggered into 3 groups. In order to be elected (that's the original language, not appointed) there were age, length of citizenship, and residency requirements Constitutionally established. The only thing that changed in 1914 was how senators were elected. I believe the house was always direct elected.

I can't find evidence they could have "their appointment ended anytime". I read that recall rules were considered but not included in the final ratified document. A Senator's term may end by death, resignation, or expulsion. And because those are the Constitutional reasons specified, it is believed that a state enacting a recall law would be found un-Constitutional; this has never been tested.

So I'm just not seeing your point, and I'm curious why you said checks and balances went out the window? I tried to research it myself. What am I missing? (Other than the FedRes, I get that part of it...)

And by the way we're not a democracy we're a republic

Democracy is an ideology whereas a republic is a form of government. They are not mutually exclusive.

No where is the word "democracy" mentioned in the Constitution. So no.

"We The People" is the line you are looking for. It's right at the beginning, and its what made our establishment of a "republican form of government" a democratic republic, as opposed to an aristocratic republic (the Netherlands, Carthage) or a monarchical republic (various Roman examples, Poland, GB).

“Great confusion about the words democracy, aristocracy, monarchy...Democracy in my sense, where the whole power of the government in the people, whether exercised by themselves or by representatives, chosen by them either mediately or immediately and legally accountable to them...Consequence, the proposed government a representative democracy...Constitution revocable and alterable by the people. This representative democracy as far as is consistent with its genius has all the features of good government.”
Alexander Hamilton, on the Constitution, 1788

Link provided. Is that primary source sufficient?

Hamilton often referred to our republic as a representative democracy, to be distinguished from Madison's "pure" democracy.

Kindly convince me why should anyone with well mathematical instinct and risk management want to trade known risk for an unknown risk? It just doesn't make sense.

I won't convince you because I'm using similar thinking to quarantine me and my family for months.

But I want to point out that covid effects are also unknown risk. There's been a lot of focus on the death rate, but the survival rate with diminished capacity worries me personally. We don't know the long term effects of covid or why for example some people get lung scarring and others don't. Its unknown risk vs unknown risk, I think especially for vulnerable populations.

I'm fortunate enough to have a business where I can quarantine. So to your point, if faced with needing to leave home to work to live, I assume that would change the equation for some folks. Same reason people become coal miners, right?

You're not American, so your input is pretty much null and void. This isn't about getting the vaccine to ride a plane. This is about the government using the vaccine as another step towards state oppression. If you were in America, and paying attention, of which neither appear to apply to you, it would be a readily apparent pattern to you as well.

Do you think the US is the only country facing increasing government authority/oppression and a trending consolidation of power? Also, your original post mentioned a plan hatched in Geneva, so why are Americans the only ones able to provide valid input? Your anger, or at least rudeness, is baffling considering you posted on an international forum.

childcare and dining speakeasies

Now there's an INE. Does it make CENTS though?

 

[Deleted78083]

You're not American, so your input is pretty much null and void. This isn't about getting the vaccine to ride a plane. This is about the government using the vaccine as another step towards state oppression. If you were in America, and paying attention, of which neither appear to apply to you, it would be a readily apparent pattern to you as well.

You asked why taking the vaccine is required to fly, and I explained it wasn't about oppressing you, but about protecting other people.

But it is now apparent you weren't looking for an answer to your question, but for someone to tell you "yes omg if we don't fight, we'll be living in a communist bureaucracy in 5 years from now".

So I'll give you the answer you wanted.

Politicians get paid by big pharma and also own their stocks so when they force people to take the vaccine, it is money for them.

Also, the government stepping in gets people used to not being in charge of their lives, but to let the bureaucrats decide for them, so now, people will gradually become dependent on the state which will better be able to dictate what the population has to do since they will provide them with food and money, against obedience and support.

Being forced to take the vaccine is just the first step towards the establishment of socialism in America, with big government ruling everyone's lives.

 

[Johnny boy]

Believe me when I say grassroots america is ready!

100%

 

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[Johnny boy]

I have said the words "thank god I own my own business" about a thousand times and this year has been the purest example of it. I don't wear a mask at work. I won't be getting a covid vaccine. I can work when I want. I don't have to listen to anyone. It's just further proof of how much control matters in your life. Especially if you hate being told what to do.

 

[csalvato]

Now there's an INE. Does it make CENTS though?

nothing makes CENTS right now because having Control is impossible in a world where the govt can deem your business nonessential and reduce your capacity to 25 or 10% on a whim.