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BOOK The reason I don't like Think and Grow Rich...

NuclearPuma

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The power of suggestion is scientifically supported fact as far as I'm concerned and Hill is simply saying to use that power to your own advantage.

Advertising, marketing, and research in fields of behavioral science demonstrate without any doubt that the subconscious mind is subject to manipulation. This is what Hill is trying to get through to you, and he proposes methods by which that you can manipulate it yourself. Don't you think this would be a useful ability?
 

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Sebastya

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Napoleon Hill wrote a book on how to enrich yourself during the Great Depression (Need). He interviewed hundreds of millionaires with help from Andrew Carnegie (Entry). It was his book (Control), and was widely published (Scale). He wrote it in 1937, and it is still available today (Time). For many decades, numerous successful business people have personally thanked him for writing his book. He also had the best title for a business book, ever. If you don't like what he said, maybe just look at what he did.
:bullseye:
 

MJ DeMarco

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Yes MJ refuses to read new books
Please allow me to correct you.

Not sure where or how you came to this conclusion.

I read books that help me solve the problem I'm encountering.

When I'm not in the middle of the problem, I then read books that interest me.

When I read books that aren't enlightening me, or teaching me anything new, I drop them. I don't waste my time and I don't allow the sunk cost carry me onward into continuing the mistake.

Just because I don't read books that the mainstream deems "must read!" doesn't mean I don't read new books. I never liked the 4HWW which is another "holier than thou" book you must not cross. And here just recently, the Goggins book is a prime example on why I tend to steer clear from books that are widely hyped by media and culture. I don't consider myself a part of culture, I'm a reluctant bystander. I'm sure in some of the alternate realities of the universe, I'm living in a log cabin in some far off forest.
 

NuclearPuma

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Please allow me to correct you.

Not sure where or how you came to this conclusion.

I read books that help me solve the problem I'm encountering.

When I'm not in the middle of the problem, I then read books that interest me.

When I read books that aren't enlightening me, or teaching me anything new, I drop them. I don't waste my time and I don't allow the sunk cost carry me onward into continuing the mistake.

Just because I don't read books that the mainstream deems "must read!" doesn't mean I don't read new books. I never liked the 4HWW which is another "holier than thou" book you must not cross. And here just recently, the Goggins book is a prime example on why I tend to steer clear from books that are widely hyped by media and culture. I don't consider myself a part of culture, I'm a reluctant bystander. I'm sure in some of the alternate realities of the universe, I'm living in a log cabin in some far off forest.
Not reading mainstream "must reads".... hmm...

***scratches head***

Ah yes....just because of your comment I think I'll actually find a handful of books that are deemed "must avoid" books and see what diamonds reside within. If the mainstream hates it, it's probably deep and meaningful, and if they love it, its probably superficial.
I never even considered what might lie within the worst rated books...

Don't "they" say to do the opposite of everyone else? I'll see if I can learn anything from books people hate.
 

MJ DeMarco

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I never even considered what might lie within the worst rated books...
Not worst rated books, just not rated in scale. You won't find them on NYT best-seller lists and you won't find them being hyped on Yahoo Finance or other mainstream outlets. A good example of this (well rated, but not media hyped) are my books. I've never received any mainstream press anywhere, and yet I've sold more than most NYT best-sellers who peek the list for 2 weeks and then disappear into oblivious months/years later.
 

MJ DeMarco

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Kung Fu Steve

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Please allow me to correct you.

Not sure where or how you came to this conclusion.
Clearly teasing :smile2:

I read books that help me solve the problem I'm encountering.

When I'm not in the middle of the problem, I then read books that interest me.

When I read books that aren't enlightening me, or teaching me anything new, I drop them. I don't waste my time and I don't allow the sunk cost carry me onward into continuing the mistake.
100% with you on all of this! I like "next steps". I'll read personal development, business, and such even if it's not great just because it's kinda my job to know about these other people.

Just because I don't read books that the mainstream deems "must read!" doesn't mean I don't read new books. I never liked the 4HWW which is another "holier than thou" book you must not cross. And here just recently, the Goggins book is a prime example on why I tend to steer clear from books that are widely hyped by media and culture. I don't consider myself a part of culture, I'm a reluctant bystander. I'm sure in some of the alternate realities of the universe, I'm living in a log cabin in some far off forest.
But here's where I'd challenge you!

"Never judge a book by it's cover"'

There's several books you miss the entire point of the book if you quit on it too early.

The 4 hour work week is brilliant not because everyone likes the book -- it's brilliant because it has nothing to do with working 4 hours a week... it has everything to do with your exact message:

Don't wait for retirement. You'll never win the "save, buy, hold, diversify" game. By the time you're old enough to "retire" you're too old to enjoy it!

That's why it boggles my mind you've not given that one a chance.

Think and Grow Rich, another one -- it's just because the IDEA of it was bastardized by these goofballs saying that they and only they figured out the "secret" in that book. And it's the secret of wishing something will happen! (Which is bullshit. I'm sure Carnegie would be rolling over in his grave!)

But we all know the truth: affirmation without discipline is the beginning of delusion.

All I'm saying is that before tossing these books to the side because they are too popular (or not popular enough) -- give them a chance before trashing all their work.
 

MJ DeMarco

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All I'm saying is that before tossing these books to the side because they are too popular (or not popular enough) -- give them a chance before trashing all their work.
Ahh, OK. So not liking or finding value in someone's book (even after several hours and multiple chapters) is now equivalent to "trashing their work" and/or disrespecting that person's body of work. Interesting. I didn't know that by not enjoying 4HWW I was actually, in some defacto implicit kind of way, crucifying/trashing Tim's vast array of accomplishments including his central message which is quite similar to my own. Not sure how you connect those dots, but OK.

In other words Steve, it is possible for someone to love the neighborhood, but not the house.

That's why it boggles my mind you've not given that one a chance.
It boggles my mind that you don't understand that "giving it a chance" might be different for YOU than it is ME. I did give it a chance. A couple hours and several chapters. Just like T&GR.

Obviously we differ on what "giving it a chance" means.

PS: I should also mention that every 5-10 years I tend to re-open books that I never liked and read them with older, more seasoned eyes. I do the same for movies. Same thing applies, if it doesn't resonate early and often, I'm done. But sometimes they read different because I'm different. I'll make sure to peek at it again with older eyes. (Last time I opened it was probably about 8 years ago.)
 

Kung Fu Steve

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PS: I should also mention that every 5-10 years I tend to re-open books that I never liked and read them with older, more seasoned eyes. I do the same for movies. Same thing applies, if it doesn't resonate early and often, I'm done. But sometimes they read different because I'm different. I'll make sure to peek at it again with older eyes. (Last time I opened it was probably about 8 years ago.)
I do the same thing actually.

I find I'm more ready to hear one message or another. In fact I just re-read yours and got some new insights I didn't catch the first time (or the second time... or... the third time... :rofl:)
 

ilidek

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But we all know the truth: affirmation without discipline is the beginning of delusion.
Aren't they delusional with discipline as well?
MJ recomended a book 59seconds. There author was going through affirmations impling that there is no scientific proof that they work, on the contrary actually. People feel good thiking about what they "are gonna have" and do nothing. It made me go through my experience with affirmations.

I was affirmating for more than year that I am going to make 1kk. Twice a day (with some day to day dealys) Boom month after I stopped I saw that I've achived like 86-93% of that. Don't remember exactly becuase at that time I've felt like milionaire (even though 1k is not milionaire) but it helped me look at stuff from new persecpective, fake milionaire persepctive to reevaluate things I like, love, dislike, hate, need, don't need.

2nd time I did it for 11.5month or something. Twice daily, every single day. Literally twice every single day, even when I was ill that year 3-4 times I was affirmating and meditating those days as well, even though I felt like fainting. I was battling with myself at the middle of November about keep going or giving it up. It was deadline for magic to happen. I was battling should I have another thing on my list of things I did daily for a year or not. Not almost daily but daily, daily list. It was a habit, it was easier than ever, worst was behind me but then I said to myself: "It's a list of things you are proud off, they don't have to work but you thought they are worth time, you commited, you did them, if something made your best year and worst year it means it doesn't impact it good enough, therfore you know it better now you can let it go".

I strongly believe that if you don't believe in something you won't make it, or at least you won't sustain it. You gonna sabbotage yourself everywhere. Saying that I see no proff that affirmations are what people say they are.
 

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Kung Fu Steve

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Aren't they delusional with discipline as well?
MJ recomended a book 59seconds. There author was going through affirmations impling that there is no scientific proof that they work, on the contrary actually. People feel good thiking about what they "are gonna have" and do nothing. It made me go through my experience with affirmations.

I was affirmating for more than year that I am going to make 1kk. Twice a day (with some day to day dealys) Boom month after I stopped I saw that I've achived like 86-93% of that. Don't remember exactly becuase at that time I've felt like milionaire (even though 1k is not milionaire) but it helped me look at stuff from new persecpective, fake milionaire persepctive to reevaluate things I like, love, dislike, hate, need, don't need.

2nd time I did it for 11.5month or something. Twice daily, every single day. Literally twice every single day, even when I was ill that year 3-4 times I was affirmating and meditating those days as well, even though I felt like fainting. I was battling with myself at the middle of November about keep going or giving it up. It was deadline for magic to happen. I was battling should I have another thing on my list of things I did daily for a year or not. Not almost daily but daily, daily list. It was a habit, it was easier than ever, worst was behind me but then I said to myself: "It's a list of things you are proud off, they don't have to work but you thought they are worth time, you commited, you did them, if something made your best year and worst year it means it doesn't impact it good enough, therfore you know it better now you can let it go".

I strongly believe that if you don't believe in something you won't make it, or at least you won't sustain it. You gonna sabbotage yourself everywhere. Saying that I see no proff that affirmations are what people say they are.
I never mentioned affirmations don't work. I only mentioned discipline is the second part of the formula.

Congrats on your successes!
 

TreyAllDay

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I was BIG BIG BIG on affirmations and posted about them here a few times.

Here's the SECRET about them.

They HELP, but they're not the key. This is what made a difference for me:

IDENTITY -> HABITS -> and then AFFIRMATIONS.

I would recommend reading Atomic Habbits or The Habit Loop instead of a book like think and grow rich. The problem about most "Mindset" books is they fail to address identity issues first.

1) Identity: I used to do affirmations, envisioned my ideal life. But unfortunately, I didn't address my IDENTITY first. I was still envisioning my $1,000,000 goal - but I still identified as a failure, so I would never change my habits to match my goal. Now I focus on my identity:

An entrepreneur, a philanthropist, an innovator, a good christian, a great partner/boyfriend and I do things that match those identities, while eliminated behaviors that don't match.

2) Habits: A huge driving factor in our behavior. I struggle with my diet and exercise constantly, but after 3 or 4 days of sticking with it I can go for 20 days. There's LOTS of great literature about how your brain creates tension and FORCES you to want to stick to habits once you start them. It's even BETTER if your habits align with your identity.

3) Last comes affirmations. Supporting statements and envisioning of your goals.
 

emphasize.v1

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The main thing I don't like about books preaching affirmations is that they are misleading. They don't tell you anything new. It's like I'd go and write a book about fitness telling people they should maintain a healthy diet, go to gym regularly, sleep well and BELIEVE their body would transform. Everyone knows that. Just like we all know you need discipline and persistence, among many other traits, to succeed in business. It's nothing new. But it's packed well. It's packed for desperate people willing to change their lives, while all those books do is mislead those people.

I've witnessed numerous examples of people getting mislead by The Secret. They kept drinking 4/7 days a week, didn't study nor work, but they had fake banknotes in their wallets because they would attract more money. Which they did. Their parents sent them cash. Oops.

That's how self-help books work for most people (not everyone). They are written to appeal large numbers of people, but not any kind of people. They are written to appeal to people who are struggling, those unsatisfied with their life at the moment. Those searching for a way out. I know the best because I read quite a few self-help books years back, when I was in a miserable state of mind, only to realize they offer me nothing but a short-term boost of motivation. A 400 pages book would offer value equal to one half-a-page article written by a real successful entrepreneur.

Books aren't complete shit though, as I've stated in my first post here, it's just that they are dangerous to rely on when you're feeling miserable.

The law of attraction and affirmation can work. They can work in a way to fake-transform your beliefs. When your beliefs are set, you can then proceed taking action in align to your beliefs. When you feel good about yourself your mood improves. When you're in a good mood you feel confident. When you feel confident your work and productivity improve. When your productivity improves you will obviously achieve better results. When you are kind to people, positive, optimistic, wishing them best - you ATTRACT(?) people like you. It's common sense. Everyone likes to hang out with a guy who is confident and wishes best to everyone around him. In the end, those results have nothing to do with law of attraction and affirmations, it's all because of you. The individual.

Having that in mind, people find it easier to rely on some law of universe or positive thinking rather than admitting they were doing things wrong. If you do things the right way and take responsibility you don't need some 400 pages book to tell you to be persistent. You already know that yourself.

I'd rather read more quality books and really improve as a person to feel confident than read the wish-list every morning out-loud just to feel confident that day. I'd rather build discipline differently. I'd rather take the hard way if it leads to long-run results.

It's just my point of view, might be flawed. I'm open for discussion if someone is willing to prove me wrong.
 

NuclearPuma

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59 seconds shares research that showed students who visualized studying, did better than students who visualized getting an A. So the first step is to focus on the behavior that is required. The leading measure. If you want to be strong you have to visualize yourself lifting the weights in the gym. If you repeatedly live it out in you're head, eventually your going to be motivated to act it out.

Mini-habits are just acting it out, you slowly build confidence, it snowballs into massive action.

Vision -> Action.

Napoleon Hill states plainly that you must be specific as to what you will do in exchange for the money.

That is exactly what the visualization research findings support! Students who were specific as to what they would do in exchange for the A performed better. You must see yourself in your mind doing that thing.

TAGR is correct about human behavior and lots of research now supports it.

People also focus on this one aspect of the book and dismiss the parts about focusing on a definite plan, specialized knowledge, and the mastermind, that are a really important parts of the equation.
 
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Mshupp

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Oh wait... sorry that was Think and Grow Rich.

Man I'm feeling like a total a**hole lately...

Here's where I agree with you:
  • The secret is bullshit.
  • Kiyosaki is a dick.
  • Napolean Hill WASN'T a successful guy.

The entire premise of the book was that Andrew Carnegie HIRED him to interview other successful people. He was an employee.

Here's where most of the posts here are just dead wrong:

  • Think and Grow Rich is not the secret.

    In the beginning of the book he writes about a secret that's in this book. Once you get it, you'll become successful. You were supposed to catch on that the secret is OBSESSION. Every successful person they found was absolutely obsessed.... and obsession is far different than sitting on the couch hoping it happens. Literally the entire book is just the "16 traits of successful people"
Did anyone even READ the book?

This is yet another case of people taking the opinion or word of someone else and adopting it without doing any research. C'mon guys... we're better than this.

Hill tried a lot of things and failed. No question. I heard in a Dan Kennedy interview that it was W. Clemet Stone that saved him in the later years of his life. But the bottom line is the 17 principals he defined and wrote about are timeless principals that the successful men he interviewed at the behest of Andrew Carnegie, practiced. They are the basis of the modern personal development movement.

I learned a long time ago that you can not attach yourself to the man but you can to his work.

In almost every case when you discover the true nature of the man you will be disappointed.

But if the work is something the inspires or gets you to look at things in your life differently then use it to your benefit. Don't get caught up in the Guru worship.
 

Gary

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I've witnessed numerous examples of people getting mislead by The Secret. They kept drinking 4/7 days a week, didn't study nor work, ...
I've never read The Secret, but now I hold it in even higher suspect if 4/7 days a week is a bad thing. That seems like a fine balance to me, perhaps even a little low.

Signed,
That forum member that sells alcohol for a living
 

MJ DeMarco

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Thank you for the link.

I'm actually going to buy it and give it a read.

The guy obviously had a screw loose, but his analytical intelligence seems to be off the charts.

The reviews are quite good. Will make for an interesting read, one you won't find on a NYT Best Seller list or on a stage with Oprah.

In fact I just re-read yours
Funny, I re-read TMF before re-editing its 2018 update and didn't like it much. Some parts even embarrassed me. That's how I know I've changed (I believe one should change at least every 5 years, otherwise you aren't evolving) and why I push Unscripted mostly now.
 

Kung Fu Steve

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Funny, I re-read TMF before re-editing its 2018 update and didn't like it much. Some parts even embarrassed me. That's how I know I've changed (I believe one should change at least every 5 years, otherwise you aren't evolving) and why I push Unscripted mostly now.
I think we're all a little too hard on ourselves. You have some brilliant stuff in there. Stuff that no one has ever brought up before.

I'm working on my book right now and I'll admit the prospect of having immortalized words and wanting the message to be perfect has really slowed down progress.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think there's a difficult line simply because belief systems change. You say "I believe THIS" and then maybe tomorrow something happens and we're like "shit... maybe not"
 

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rogue synthetic

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Thank you for the link.

I'm actually going to buy it and give it a read.

The guy obviously had a screw loose, but his analytical intelligence seems to be off the charts.

The reviews are quite good. Will make for an interesting read, one you won't find on a NYT Best Seller list or on a stage with Oprah.
It was a half tongue-in-cheek link, but given your leanings I think you'll enjoy it.

The media made him out like a raving nutcase (of course), but the writings are surprisingly lucid. He's painting a picture of some ugly truths about technological civilization. Too painful to ignore, because the effects are catching up to us, and too painful to address, because we're all hooked on it.
 

harlansjobs

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Wow, this thread really changed in its scope from the time that it started through to the present.
Originally it was simply about why the OP did not like TAGR. He did not invoke the name of Robert Kiyosaki. Also somewhere along the way, it seemed to insult other people and just go crazy.
Think and Grow Rich is a book and title that has long been misunderstood by many people. It is very similar to the saying in Superman the Movie where Lex Luthor says "some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it is a great adventure novel and others may read the ingrediants on a gum wrapper and discover the secrets of the universe.
The OP states that he hates the book because it is being used by the new age charlatans to promote the law of attraction.
Well lets exzmine the good and bad points of the book itself.
There are many examples of bad writing and downright lying that could NOT have come to light without the internet. Napoleon Hill did NOT repeat, work for Carnegie and he probably made up meeting all those famous people. His last wife spent much of her time turning his notes into something coherent, which is why his earlier books like the Magic Ladder to Success was not.
What the book IS is a perhaps appealing to the common man that if Mr. Hill was able to achieve this with not even a proper education than I can do it too. Something badly needed during the depression. I am sure that the motivation that it gave people was impressive.
He stressed working hard toward your goal, like the man who did everything he could to be a partner to the great Thomas Edison. True? Who knows. The takeaway is that he had a determined goal and never gave up.

Some people complained about the Archaic use of the English language. There are copies out there, edited and updated by the Hill Foundation, putting the book into modern English as it is the ideas that are running the show not the verbiage. So read the book before you base it on that.
If nothing else, Hills book should stand alone as a MOTIVATIONAL book. He succeeded with determination and guts. Yes he was as crooked as a broken sidewalk but he truly walked the walk in terms of believing what he wrote... whatever the mind of man can believe the mind of man can achieve through a positive mental attitude.

He never said sit back, meditate and the good fairies will drop it off to you. He said believe in yourself and what you want and you will find a way to bring it to reality if you never give up or take your eyes off the prize .. eye of the Tiger!
Just my opinion. Not looking for an argument.
 

Gepi

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My key takeaway so far from TAGR (a few chapters in):
Be focused on what you want, every day, build a plan, surround yourself with the right people who know stuff you don't, and go for it. Repeat your goals every day to not lose focus and make them a burning desire. And I realized, it really doesn't sound so different for me than your success story, @MJ DeMarco. You had all of that, maybe even some helpful people along the way. And you stayed focused and did not give up even if others would say "take the easy path". You carried also a burning desire.
I have read exactly this from the above book. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd say he analyzed the way to success in a different, but still in a very valid way, without going into the analytics of supply and demand, the great concept of giving value and financial stuff so much as you (which makes absolute sense looking at your experience and knowledge from university. I mean those, next to others, were your main subjects, if I remember correctly. Although I am not so sure if the "value" part was so big a deal in college, this particular way of describing it seems to come from yourself and your observational skills). He goes also into the psychological groundworks of why people are successful, like not giving up after a failure, and another, and another, and keep on fighting.
Best wishes,
Gepi
 
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AlexFS

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People like to have hope, and this book sells it to them, and everyone wants to know the answer right away or the easy way of getting rich. Robert Kiyosaki's book is good if you have no idea about the concepts he talks about, just to open up your mind to the possibilities, but nothing further than that. There will always be people trying to sell snake oil.

By the way I think the original concept of "The secret" or whatever you want to call it was written by William D. Wattles - The Science of getting rich

It is really interesting how old this idea is, and how old ideas keep getting repackaged and sold to the masses. The concept of history repeating itself over and over.
 

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@Andy Black , RDPD was the first financial book I read, too. I found it very helpful to me for where I was on finances at the time.
I have only read a bit of Think and Grow Rich, and I have listened to a podcast of The Secret. I took it more as this: focus and believe in yourself. In fact, I think that self-defeating thoughts are our own worst enemies. Changing your thought processes are critical to success. Successful people must believe in themselves, because, as Henry Ford said, "Whether you think you can, or think you can't - you're right."
 

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@MJ DeMarco , I think what you experienced when you re-edited TMF is what many authors experience when they edit, multiple times, a book they wrote. I think editing something too many times can make an author hate it. I read TMF this summer, so it was probably your new version. I loved it, and it was very helpful to me. Then I read Unscripted hot on the heels of TMF, so I forget to which book I should attribute my thoughts. I was pleased that they contained such different material.
 

Okraz1

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Thank you for the link.

I'm actually going to buy it and give it a read.

The guy obviously had a screw loose, but his analytical intelligence seems to be off the charts.

The reviews are quite good. Will make for an interesting read, one you won't find on a NYT Best Seller list or on a stage with Oprah.
Hey MJ, it'd be interesting to get your view on Ted's writing.

I think you share some similarities in that you both write that modern society is plagued by things like consumerism, illusion of freedom (constitutional rights) , life long servitude (golden handcuffs), entitlement, etc.

Ted rejected being subjected to these aforementioned issues so he opted out of society and returned to nature.

Whereas you advocate playing the game to beat the system and achieving financial freedom.
 

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Although I knew this book, I thought it would be another typical self-help book. But seeing that it is one of the best sellers in history and that it was written in 1937 I was curious to start reading it.

At the moment I have only read few pages, and although there are many things that bring me nothing like the murky past of Hill, the tone that you can be rich in an easy way, the minimization of the importance of action, the absence of something as basic as covering a need, etc. I think it is our job to look for what you can take from each experience or book, and in this case I was surprised that he continually affirms that a plan is needed to be rich, that you have to choose a path that will lead you to that wealth and follow it at any cost.

I know it's a very basic idea. But many people live in a world where they believe that wealth comes by chance, that rich people have not made a detailed plan, and I can imagine that this idea in 1937 was still more popular.

I know that for many it may not be enough for a book, and more compared to the detailed TMF process, but I think to be written in 1937, highlight this idea was important.
 

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