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Successful AdWords guy interested in creating Lead Gen properties - a few questions though...

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whiz

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Hey guys :)

When I say successful I don't mean I'm @Andy Black.

But I'm currently running profitable campaigns that are rooted in strong fundamentals:
  • A hungry market.
  • Proper search targeting.
  • Proper ad relevance/copy.
  • Proper landing page.
  • Consistency throughout the whole process.

Now, to my question:

I'm interesting in doing a "get leads, sell leads" model instead of selling AdWords freelancing to local businesses:
  • They get leads.
  • I get money.
  • We're both happy.

Approach:

Run paid ad campaigns to a landing page and collect qualified leads. Have the # be a CallRail number pointing to a reputable local service provider. Listen to the calls. When you're sure you gave them a proper lead or two, call them up and tell them you've been running leads. Work out a deal.

A Couple Things I'm Insure Of :arghh::


Do I make separate properties for each combo of vertical/location?


ex: "qualitybostonroofers.com", "hudsonpoolcontractors.com", "brooklyndogsitters.com"

Or do I make one big "goodservices.com" and silo it out into "goodservices.com/us/ma/boston/roofers"

I'm basically asking what the pros and cons are for having multiple different web properties. I'll start with maybe 3 landers, get them profitable and then move onto more.

So, one site or many?


Do I charge per lead, or per month?

Do I charge per lead or do I rent the page out for a monthly fee?

I like the monthly fee because once I have some data, I can give them an estimate of how any leads they can get for several different packages: $500, $1000, $2500, $5000, etc.

Plus "per-lead" brings up all sorts of arguments about what a lead is and isn't. All that really matters is that they make more than they spend. If they spend $2k with me and make $6k, then they should be happy (if they know how to track...).

Also, I can collect up front instead of running the campaign out of pocket and then selling each individual lead. Say I collected $2k. I'd give them an estimate of leads for the month, I'd take my cut (let's say 40%) and then I'd run campaigns with $1200.

If I see room for growth (there's more impression share to grab), then I can upsell on the next package and take a smaller cut to give them a tiny boost in leads/$ ratio. They're already gonna get more leads, but why not increase the ratio and provide more value? It won't really take me any more effort to change the spend...

I can set packages something like this:

$1000 package -> 50% goes to spend ($500)
$2000 package -> 60% goes to spend ($1200)
$5000 package -> 70% goes to spend ($3500)

Also, monthly is consistent. They get used to the bill and there's no sorcery or magic behind it. There's nothing to dispute or ponder about really. It's simple.

Rant:

I like this lead gen method as well because I own the campaigns. I have more leverage/control and I can even run thousands of $$$ on a credit card with benefits and collect miles and whatnot.

I'll stress again - I have more leverage/control with this model as opposed to being an AdWords specialist. This is probably the most important thing to me. If I learned a single thing from 4+ years of freelancing, it's that the "service" relationship is automatically skewed you in a position of weakness. You allow people to ask too many questions and have too much say in things that they don't understand at all. I will never show a client any metrics besides cost.

I'm like a scientist; I mix dangerous chemicals you don't understand, and if you touch them, your hand will melt off. But if you let me do my thing, I'll present you with your Money Goo that you want so badly. I don't care if you just found out about "Enhanced Cost Per Click" on some blog - do you want 3x ROI or not? There's a whole lot of roofers out there that would love what you have...

I like the whole rent thing because it's more of a "business/customer" relationship, with me being the business. I'm like a landlord. I own a valuable asset and the biz understands that, and that's why you pay for it. Let me work!

If I sound bitter towards freelancing and small biz owners, it's because I am. Sorry for the rant.:humph:


So, one web property or many? Charge per lead or monthly?

Big thanks to those who provide insane value on this forum.
 

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whiz

whiz

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I can see @Andy Black stepping into this thread in 3, 2, 1 ...

.
That would be lovely.

P.S. Thanks for your input on the forum. I've learned a lot from you.

I gotta get around to that behemoth, post-to-end-all-posts Paid Advertising Crash Course once I get over the anxiety attack of looking at a 128973123 word post.
 

cdngopnik

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I'm far from being an expert on the matter but I have just set up my first successful (ish) lead gen operation this year so I can share some insights, but keep in mind that my sample size is super tiny.

I chose to set up a separate domain for the location (qualitybostonroofers) because I thought I could get a better quality score with an exact match domain for my top keyword. I did get a good quality score and even ended up ranking organically for that keyword. I think the ranking has more to do with the fact that my niche isn't too competitive.

I did end up expanding to other service areas by building pages like qualitybostonroofers.com/nearby-area but im not sure if that's great for my conversion rates (having a customer see that the main domain is for another city). If I was to expand to another state (province in my case) I would have to set up a separate domain. All in all, I think that having a domain that names the general city/area makes people think its a local company instead of some lead mill.

As for payment - I started with pay per sale. I was listening to a lot of the calls and getting frustrated with the way they were getting handled. After some more frustration we ended up switching to a set payment per month and it's less stressful for both of us. I still push the buyer to make the most of the leads because its in my interest that he keeps buying them but it seems to be going ok for the last few months.

Sorry if this is a bit all over the place so let me know if you need clarification on anything. Shoot me a pm if you want to brainstorm about leadgen or ads or whatever.
 
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whiz

whiz

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I'm far from being an expert on the matter but I have just set up my first successful (ish) lead gen operation this year so I can share some insights, but keep in mind that my sample size is super tiny.

I chose to set up a separate domain for the location (qualitybostonroofers) because I thought I could get a better quality score with an exact match domain for my top keyword. I did get a good quality score and even ended up ranking organically for that keyword. I think the ranking has more to do with the fact that my niche isn't too competitive.

I did end up expanding to other service areas by building pages like qualitybostonroofers.com/nearby-area but im not sure if that's great for my conversion rates (having a customer see that the main domain is for another city). If I was to expand to another state (province in my case) I would have to set up a separate domain. All in all, I think that having a domain that names the general city/area makes people think its a local company instead of some lead mill.

As for payment - I started with pay per sale. I was listening to a lot of the calls and getting frustrated with the way they were getting handled. After some more frustration we ended up switching to a set payment per month and it's less stressful for both of us. I still push the buyer to make the most of the leads because its in my interest that he keeps buying them but it seems to be going ok for the last few months.

Sorry if this is a bit all over the place so let me know if you need clarification on anything. Shoot me a pm if you want to brainstorm about leadgen or ads or whatever.
Interesting observation on the quality score...

I also forgot that I can reinforce the sites through SEO by sending local signals to help em rank long term. But although I’ve done SEO before, I’m not really looking at this method right now. Maybe once I get some $$$, I’ll outsource citation building, content, links etc to boost the site organically. But this is a plus about keeping the sites separate.

Also it helps to not have the general “lead mill” look.

Also side question: does the domain name actually boost quality score itself, or is it just a byproduct of an increase CTR because it matches what’s on the searcher’s mind more?

Back to the topic... yeah, monthly seems the way to go...

As far as your pain with hearing the phone calls... yeah. A lot of people don’t know how to sell shit! Seems like another need to fill...

Once we get $$$ and we’ve heard enough calls (and learned enough about the vertical) we can offer lead gen + lead closing (outsource to a call center) and pretty much book appointments for them and charge a premium. That would be beautiful. That way you take control into your hands and just have to ensure that you have great service providers. At this point we’re pretty much subcontracting and should probably just open a damn business lol.

But for now I’ll just stress how important proper calls are (even though this stuff usually falls on deaf ears...)

Question for you:

How are you getting clients? Setting up a site, putting their # up and throwing a couple free leads to a biz? Then you call em? I’m super interested.

We can keep the convo here if you want, so other people can see our thoughts

P.S. it’s okay if you’re writing is all over the place. I also still have no idea how to structure my thoughts in written form.



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Do I make separate properties for each combo of vertical/location?

ex: "qualitybostonroofers.com", "hudsonpoolcontractors.com", "brooklyndogsitters.com"

Or do I make one big "goodservices.com" and silo it out into "goodservices.com/us/ma/boston/roofers"

I'm basically asking what the pros and cons are for having multiple different web properties. I'll start with maybe 3 landers, get them profitable and then move onto more.

So, one site or many?
Start with one site? Build others if there's a business case from the real live data from the campaigns to the initial one site?

Caveat... you might run better with one site per vertical, then create separate location specific ones out of it.

I had goodservices.ie (not real name) and ran some plumbing campaigns to it for my Dublin Plumber at goodservices.ie/dublin-plumbing
I saw his ad CTR was cr@p compared to my other plumbing clients, so we built goodplumbing.ie/dublin-plumbing (not real name) and he got more volume.

I've not created gooddublinplumbing.ie (yet?). I'll probably stick with growing goodplumbing.ie.

A pro of having gooddublinplumbing.ie as well as goodplumbing.ie is that I could potentially run two ads at the same time, so long as the offer and landing page are sufficiently different that I'm not "double serving".


Do I charge per lead, or per month?

Do I charge per lead or do I rent the page out for a monthly fee?

I like the monthly fee because once I have some data, I can give them an estimate of how any leads they can get for several different packages: $500, $1000, $2500, $5000, etc.

Plus "per-lead" brings up all sorts of arguments about what a lead is and isn't. All that really matters is that they make more than they spend. If they spend $2k with me and make $6k, then they should be happy (if they know how to track...).

Also, I can collect up front instead of running the campaign out of pocket and then selling each individual lead. Say I collected $2k. I'd give them an estimate of leads for the month, I'd take my cut (let's say 40%) and then I'd run campaigns with $1200.

If I see room for growth (there's more impression share to grab), then I can upsell on the next package and take a smaller cut to give them a tiny boost in leads/$ ratio. They're already gonna get more leads, but why not increase the ratio and provide more value? It won't really take me any more effort to change the spend...

I can set packages something like this:

$1000 package -> 50% goes to spend ($500)
$2000 package -> 60% goes to spend ($1200)
$5000 package -> 70% goes to spend ($3500)

Also, monthly is consistent. They get used to the bill and there's no sorcery or magic behind it. There's nothing to dispute or ponder about really. It's simple.
I prefer monthly flat fee for the campaign and landing page rental, and they pay the ad spend direct to Google. Some of the clients prefer it too (they're used to flat monthly fee with The Yellow Pages for example). I can also make it a plus point that the can see full transparency over how much is spent with Google on ads.

I don't want to go down the route of arguing over what's a lead and what's not. We're dealing with phone calls here, and some will be clients ringing back about the ongoing job, or maybe even their mum who's trying to get hold of them because they don't pick up their personal phone.

I think @MJ DeMarco had it that limo drivers were notified of a lead and the first to buy it got the details. I think this is smart, because it ensures the limo drivers who are most responsive at that time will get the lead, and therefore the consumer gets a callback quicker. I'm sure this was good for the limos.com brand.

I mention to clients that there's a sliding scale for the management fee, that it's based on ad spend, and that we'd agree beforehand if they're going to go into a new band.


Rant:

I like this lead gen method as well because I own the campaigns. I have more leverage/control and I can even run thousands of $$$ on a credit card with benefits and collect miles and whatnot.

I'll stress again - I have more leverage/control with this model as opposed to being an AdWords specialist. This is probably the most important thing to me. If I learned a single thing from 4+ years of freelancing, it's that the "service" relationship is automatically skewed you in a position of weakness. You allow people to ask too many questions and have too much say in things that they don't understand at all. I will never show a client any metrics besides cost.

I'm like a scientist; I mix dangerous chemicals you don't understand, and if you touch them, your hand will melt off. But if you let me do my thing, I'll present you with your Money Goo that you want so badly. I don't care if you just found out about "Enhanced Cost Per Click" on some blog - do you want 3x ROI or not? There's a whole lot of roofers out there that would love what you have...

I like the whole rent thing because it's more of a "business/customer" relationship, with me being the business. I'm like a landlord. I own a valuable asset and the biz understands that, and that's why you pay for it. Let me work!

If I sound bitter towards freelancing and small biz owners, it's because I am. Sorry for the rant.:humph:
I hear you, it can be frustrating. Figure out how to come from a place of serving people.

"We've charged anywhere from €2,500/mth to €5,000/mth to build and manage these sorts of campaigns for companies. We've developed my own processes and IP. If we were to do it in our accounts though then we'd charge you €250/mth or €500/mth."


Also... an aha moment I had a few months ago is that I'm not trying to "own the assets" (the client's will always see you as an agency for Google Ads and some will begrudge you owning the account). Instead of owning the assets, own the marketing channel itself. Don't be an agency for Google Ads, but be another channel that a plumber can get leads from. Think limos dot com, booking dot com, etc.

"Where do you get your leads from Bob?"

"Oh, from Google, Yelp, and GoodPlumbers."


Also... if I own goodplumbers.ie then I can start doing SEO, Facebook Ads, etc for that domain. In which case getting paid per lead starts making more sense.


I can see @Andy Black stepping into this thread in 3, 2, 1 ...
I laughed when I saw this last night. I was on my phone so waited till today to get on the PC and answer better.


As for payment - I started with pay per sale. I was listening to a lot of the calls and getting frustrated with the way they were getting handled. After some more frustration we ended up switching to a set payment per month and it's less stressful for both of us. I still push the buyer to make the most of the leads because its in my interest that he keeps buying them but it seems to be going ok for the last few months.
Yep. Someone kept telling me I was leaving money on the table by charging a flat monthly fee and not per-lead. A year later he switched to flat-monthly because he had less headaches. If it's per-sale then I'm dependent on them picking up the phone, and being able to close worth a damn. Oh, and telling me they made a sale. Sure, it can be done, but I do like simple.



EDIT: Most of our clients have landing pages on their domain that we create for them. e.g. contact.theirdomain.com. I'm slowly working/transitioning to "building a marketing channel".
 
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cdngopnik

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Question for you:

How are you getting clients? Setting up a site, putting their # up and throwing a couple free leads to a biz? Then you call em? I’m super interested.

We can keep the convo here if you want, so other people can see our thoughts

P.S. it’s okay if you’re writing is all over the place. I also still have no idea how to structure my thoughts in written form.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
With this particular setup, I already knew the guy from before and just saw an opportunity in his niche so it was the perfect match.

Before, I just picked up the phone and called companies and told them that I had free leads that they can try out and pay me if they see value in them. Got a few meetings but in the end, I went with a company that I felt could close the leads. In my industry, smalltime guys don't really understand the value of leads and try to haggle me down on price.
 
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With this particular setup, I already knew the guy from before and just saw an opportunity in his niche so it was the perfect match.

Before, I just picked up the phone and called companies and told them that I had free leads that they can try out and pay me if they see value in them. Got a few meetings but in the end, I went with a company that I felt could close the leads. In my industry, smalltime guys don't really understand the value of leads and try to haggle me down on price.
If I've learned anything from freelancing it's that the hagglers are ALWAYS trouble. This behavior usually foreshadows a bunch of other problems...

Like @Andy Black says, they see the the cost and not the value.

I hate when people want to talk numbers immediately. You don't even know the benefit! I could be giving you diamond-encrusted Rolexes with every lead and you would never know because you just wanted to talk about price immediately...
 
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I think I understand the majority of my business model and how I'm going to go about this...

Probably going to make a goodplumbers.com and set up a funnel for every service area.

The only thing I'm unsure of:

I think @MJ DeMarco had it that limo drivers were notified of a lead and the first to buy it got the details. I think this is smart, because it ensures the limo drivers who are most responsive at that time will get the lead, and therefore the consumer gets a callback quicker. I'm sure this was good for the limos.com brand.
I'm unsure if I should rent out the landing pages or if I should do this method (or a combination of both).

This "first come, first serve" method is definitely good for the brand.

I'm just worried about a certain service provider absolutely dominating, and the others getting pissed.

A good service provider would probably just automate it to purchase a lead immediately... kinda like people on game shows who hit the red button right away, whether they know the answer or not.

I feel like if a really good, competitive provider is going to dominate anyway, then I might as well try to find them to rent.

Also, it makes sense to "time-auction" form-submit leads, but phonecalls have no time to sit around waiting for a buyer.

For phonecalls, it would be more ideal to have the [Call Now] button go straight to a responsive provider.

I like the idea of the "first come, first serve" method but I can't wrap my head around every angle.
 

Andy Black

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I think I understand the majority of my business model and how I'm going to go about this...

Probably going to make a goodplumbers.com and set up a funnel for every service area.

The only thing I'm unsure of:



I'm unsure if I should rent out the landing pages or if I should do this method (or a combination of both).

This "first come, first serve" method is definitely good for the brand.

I'm just worried about a certain service provider absolutely dominating, and the others getting pissed.

A good service provider would probably just automate it to purchase a lead immediately... kinda like people on game shows who hit the red button right away, whether they know the answer or not.

I feel like if a really good, competitive provider is going to dominate anyway, then I might as well try to find them to rent.

Also, it makes sense to "time-auction" form-submit leads, but phonecalls have no time to sit around waiting for a buyer.

For phonecalls, it would be more ideal to have the [Call Now] button go straight to a responsive provider.

I like the idea of the "first come, first serve" method but I can't wrap my head around every angle.
Start simple.
 
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Start simple.
I guess the obvious simple option is to just make the landers and then approach businesses for a monthly fee to use the lander.

I already have proof of concept... I can probably use the data I already have to estimate results. Then I'll use the data to estimate monthly cost for the landers - then find buyers.
 

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I think @MJ DeMarco had it that limo drivers were notified of a lead and the first to buy it got the details. I think this is smart, because it ensures the limo drivers who are most responsive at that time will get the lead, and therefore the consumer gets a callback quicker. I'm sure this was good for the limos.com brand.
I did both, but the former was better because it showed activity and demand.
 
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I did both, but the former was better because it showed activity and demand.
Did you charge for them to be a member of your service, or you just put them on a list for free and they paid per lead?

I'm guessing you had an email list and sent out a "Hey, we got a lead! Buy now for the details." email?

And once the payment is processed, the lead gets sent to them and gets marked as "taken" so no one else can purchase it?

Just trying to figure out the logistics.

I like how it rewards the most responsive/quickest service. Seems about right in a capitalist system.

Did you find that the good limo services swallowed up a huge portion of the leads?
 

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I guess the obvious simple option is to just make the landers and then approach businesses for a monthly fee to use the lander.

I already have proof of concept... I can probably use the data I already have to estimate results. Then I'll use the data to estimate monthly cost for the landers - then find buyers.
The thing I found was to get in motion as fast as possible - get a sale as soon as possible. Right now you are testing your market. All best laid plans never survive contact with the market and perfect is the enemy of the good. Trying to come up with the perfect domain name in the beginning is a red herring. Get people to call!

I spend about 10 US a day on driving traffic. I'm collecting a ton of data, which helps me identify what people are looking for. I also add Google My Business and drive traffic from that.
 

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The thing I found was to get in motion as fast as possible - get a sale as soon as possible. Right now you are testing your market. All best laid plans never survive contact with the market and perfect is the enemy of the good. Trying to come up with the perfect domain name in the beginning is a red herring. Get people to call!

I spend about 10 US a day on driving traffic. I'm collecting a ton of data, which helps me identify what people are looking for. I also add Google My Business and drive traffic from that.
Exactly.

Pick a direction. Get started. Keep going.

The way will reveal itself when you’re walking it, not beforehand.
 

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Also...

“Overthinking is the art of solving problems you don’t have.” (Unknown)

Each hurdle you encounter is actually a stepping stone in disguise. Figure out how to get over the one in front of you first, then repeat with the next one.
 
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The thing I found was to get in motion as fast as possible - get a sale as soon as possible. Right now you are testing your market. All best laid plans never survive contact with the market and perfect is the enemy of the good. Trying to come up with the perfect domain name in the beginning is a red herring. Get people to call!
Exactly.

Pick a direction. Get started. Keep going.

The way will reveal itself when you’re walking it, not beforehand.
Fortunately for me, I'm currently restructuring a client's Pest Control campaign.

I'm doing it with the intent of duplicating the system to other locations within the Pest Control vertical.

So I'm getting paid to develop my lead-gen system AND prove that it works.

I make my client happy, I don't have to toll away for free, and I don't have to do guesswork when I pitch the system.

I'll know it works. That'll help me pitch it confidently, with real life data.

I'll have the system ready to go - I just need a credit card, a phone number, and an email.

It's really a great scenario for me...

So I'm just going to create this for my current client, then I'm gonna run it and optimize...

Then I just have to develop my web property/brand and the rest just comes down to duplicating things and plugging in variables here and there...

I really think I can turn this into something.

90% of the advertisers in this vertical have no idea what they're doing. There's a lot of DIY biz owners that are just throwing up random ads that don't even fit the search intent.

I think I can really get great CTR/CPC and amass data/knowledge that no one else really has besides the big guys.

This will probably open up a bunch of other avenues that I don't even see right now.

Yeah...

Back to work.
 

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Fortunately for me, I'm currently restructuring a client's Pest Control campaign.

I'm doing it with the intent of duplicating the system to other locations within the Pest Control vertical.

So I'm getting paid to develop my lead-gen system AND prove that it works.

I make my client happy, I don't have to toll away for free, and I don't have to do guesswork when I pitch the system.

I'll know it works. That'll help me pitch it confidently, with real life data.

I'll have the system ready to go - I just need a credit card, a phone number, and an email.

It's really a great scenario for me...

So I'm just going to create this for my current client, then I'm gonna run it and optimize...

Then I just have to develop my web property/brand and the rest just comes down to duplicating things and plugging in variables here and there...

I really think I can turn this into something.

90% of the advertisers in this vertical have no idea what they're doing. There's a lot of DIY biz owners that are just throwing up random ads that don't even fit the search intent.

I think I can really get great CTR/CPC and amass data/knowledge that no one else really has besides the big guys.

This will probably open up a bunch of other avenues that I don't even see right now.

Yeah...

Back to work.
Keep the motion going. Concerning the phone number, if you have a gmail account, you can create a "Google Voice" number. It does call forwarding and transcription for messaging. it also can be used in google ads for analytics.
 
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Keep the motion going. Concerning the phone number, if you have a gmail account, you can create a "Google Voice" number. It does call forwarding and transcription for messaging. it also can be used in google ads for analytics.
I meant:

Once I have the system up, all I need is to do is contact pest control companies and make them salivate profusely with my offer. Then I ask for their credit card, phone number, and email.

Then I just plug it into my Pre-Made Pest Control Money Printing System and shoot them leads.

I plan on using CallRail to record calls for multiple reasons:

1. I see how the phone calls are going down - it let's me monitor my service providers. Plus if they know I'm listening to the recordings, they might be on their toes more and more inclined to actually put effort into their calls. Or not. Who knows...

2. I learn a ton about the vertical and I can analyze which sales methods are the best and why. I can then offer my insights to my "fleet" of service providers. +++value

Once I have enough data, if I'm confident that I can train a small team of salespeople to conduct optimal calls, then I'll test it on a small scale. If it works, then I'll sell a "lead gen + call center" package.

Now all they have to do is show up... I might as well just get a list of sub-contractors and good PC guys at this point and run a company of my own...

3. Why the hell not? I can only really see upsides to having the insanely-valuable data that the phone recordings provide. If a PC company doesn't want to sign on because of the recording, they can suck it. I'll find someone who understands that I'm trying to grow with them. We are a team.
 
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Just posting some notes from a PM with @Andy Black :


Whiz:

I’m running a pest control campaign for a client who handles furry animals and birds, but is unable to do bug jobs.

Since 80% of searches are the top level pest control terms (pest control near me, pest control NYC), I don’t really know the searchers exact problem. It could be bugs, or it could be a raccoon. I’m trying to filter out bug people through the ad copy, making headlines such as “We Specialize in Furry Critters”, etc. It doesn’t appear to be working so well. My CTR is very low on top level pest control terms, obviously due to a bad search-headline match.

Should I just try to find someone to send the bug jobs to?


Andy:

Yes.

Sign up a bugs guy.

At the end of the day, we make money by matching a service-seeker with a service-provider.


Whiz:

I think I know what I’m going to do. The landing page for top level pest control searches will have squares with the images of the different types of pests. The headline will read something like “What Type of Pests Do You Need Help With?”.

If they click on a furry critter button, let’s say the raccoon button, then they will be taken to the raccoon lander. The phone numbers and forms on the furry landers will go to my wildlife trapper guy.

The phone numbers and forms on the bug pages will go to my bug guy.

This will allow me to have relevant ads for top level pest control searches, and I won’t waste any clicks because I’ll send the leads to their respective service providers.

This is a pretty good plan, right?


Andy:

Yes, that’s what I’d do. Send visitors into Grand Central Station and let them choose which train to take.


Whiz:

Will the poor CTR from my original crappy pest control headlines affect by CPCs at the account level?


Andy:

Yeah, lower CTR will affect the account.


Whiz:

So should I make a new account and do everything correctly?

I can laser cut an account with the knowledge/data I’ve gained.


Andy:

Nah… keep the history of spend.


Whiz:

Okay, I’ll restructure the campaign and relaunch.


Andy:


I'm always restructuring. It's easier than fiddling inside a campaign, and it gives you a fallback position.

I might have campaign:
  • IP=IE {Plumber DUBLIN-LOCATION} (google; modbroad) /created=2018-10-18
then rebuild it as:
  • IP=IE {Plumber DUBLIN-LOCATION} (google; modbroad) /created=2018-12-11
If the new campaign doesn't work as well, then I can pause it and go back to the old one.

Note how they'll also naturally sort chronologically (due to the YYYY-MM-DD date format)?


Whiz:

Nice, I’ll have to organize mine this way.

Do you know how shared budgets work?

Let's say I had 50 campaigns.

If I do an account-wide budget, it doesn't assign $1 per campaign, right? That would be stupid...

I would never get a click - most of these pest control clicks are $6-20.

I'm guessing it just grabs clicks when they come, regardless of the campaign... as long as the spend stays within budget?


Andy:

Yeah, shared budgets are spread across the campaigns.
 

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EDIT: Most of our clients have landing pages on their domain that we create for them. e.g. contact.theirdomain.com. I'm slowly working/transitioning to "building a marketing channel".
Wow - this was my plan. Until tonight. Just finished reading "SEO 2017 & Beyond" by Dr. Andy Williams. He is very direct on his do's and don'ts. This deals with stand alone landing pages, not ads as in original op. But I think my questions pertain directly to your response quoted in this post.

Buy the books. Study. And all I get are MORE questions!

The methods in this very comprehensive book run completely counter to my plan in the use of multiple landing pages. For example, "Our 5 Step Selling Plan." My idea was to create 30 or more landing pages, each devoted to a specific topic, and only that topic - rather than have one massive "mother ship" website that has 30 pages about every possible topic. This is a massive book that goes into Panda, Penguin, Hummingbird, etc. changes made by Google - just to let you know the level of detail. He specifically says that landing pages that are made for the express purpose of "multiplying presence" on the internet are VERY much frowned upon by Google. One glaring example would be a plumber that has 50 sites, one for each state, that are all the same. For example, "Expert Water Heater Repair in Utah" - then, Texas, etc. for all the states. I can understand that. Google does not want to be swamped by clone URLs. A similar tactic would be using EMD site identification (exact match domains), which for space constraints, I won't go into details here.

My pages would be on individual topics that are discussed in great detail. My reasoning is that 25 landing pages is better than one big site. I was planning on using sub-domains, as you mentioned Andy, i.e. Homemade-Pizza.My-Food-Site@Food-Emporium.com.

Now I don't know if my plan on multiple landing pages is sound, or not.

On the other side of the argument - I have entire books devoted to creating Landing Pages that will capture interest.

The penalties for too many landing pages can be severe, as I understand it. Google can delist the entire site!

Obviously, we have two direct opposing views on landing sites. I'll shut up and let the ones with far more experience than me take over... (thanks!)
 

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Wow - this was my plan. Until tonight. Just finished reading "SEO 2017 & Beyond" by Dr. Andy Williams. He is very direct on his do's and don'ts. This deals with stand alone landing pages, not ads as in original op. But I think my questions pertain directly to your response quoted in this post.

Buy the books. Study. And all I get are MORE questions!

The methods in this very comprehensive book run completely counter to my plan in the use of multiple landing pages. For example, "Our 5 Step Selling Plan." My idea was to create 30 or more landing pages, each devoted to a specific topic, and only that topic - rather than have one massive "mother ship" website that has 30 pages about every possible topic. This is a massive book that goes into Panda, Penguin, Hummingbird, etc. changes made by Google - just to let you know the level of detail. He specifically says that landing pages that are made for the express purpose of "multiplying presence" on the internet are VERY much frowned upon by Google. One glaring example would be a plumber that has 50 sites, one for each state, that are all the same. For example, "Expert Water Heater Repair in Utah" - then, Texas, etc. for all the states. I can understand that. Google does not want to be swamped by clone URLs. A similar tactic would be using EMD site identification (exact match domains), which for space constraints, I won't go into details here.

My pages would be on individual topics that are discussed in great detail. My reasoning is that 25 landing pages is better than one big site. I was planning on using sub-domains, as you mentioned Andy, i.e. Homemade-Pizza.My-Food-Site@Food-Emporium.com.

Now I don't know if my plan on multiple landing pages is sound, or not.

On the other side of the argument - I have entire books devoted to creating Landing Pages that will capture interest.

The penalties for too many landing pages can be severe, as I understand it. Google can delist the entire site!

Obviously, we have two direct opposing views on landing sites. I'll shut up and let the ones with far more experience than me take over... (thanks!)
I don't do (or care) about SEO.

We pay Google for traffic from their search engine to landing pages and domains.
 
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Wow - this was my plan. Until tonight. Just finished reading "SEO 2017 & Beyond" by Dr. Andy Williams. He is very direct on his do's and don'ts. This deals with stand alone landing pages, not ads as in original op. But I think my questions pertain directly to your response quoted in this post.

Buy the books. Study. And all I get are MORE questions!

The methods in this very comprehensive book run completely counter to my plan in the use of multiple landing pages. For example, "Our 5 Step Selling Plan." My idea was to create 30 or more landing pages, each devoted to a specific topic, and only that topic - rather than have one massive "mother ship" website that has 30 pages about every possible topic. This is a massive book that goes into Panda, Penguin, Hummingbird, etc. changes made by Google - just to let you know the level of detail. He specifically says that landing pages that are made for the express purpose of "multiplying presence" on the internet are VERY much frowned upon by Google. One glaring example would be a plumber that has 50 sites, one for each state, that are all the same. For example, "Expert Water Heater Repair in Utah" - then, Texas, etc. for all the states. I can understand that. Google does not want to be swamped by clone URLs. A similar tactic would be using EMD site identification (exact match domains), which for space constraints, I won't go into details here.

My pages would be on individual topics that are discussed in great detail. My reasoning is that 25 landing pages is better than one big site. I was planning on using sub-domains, as you mentioned Andy, i.e. Homemade-Pizza.My-Food-Site@Food-Emporium.com.

Now I don't know if my plan on multiple landing pages is sound, or not.

On the other side of the argument - I have entire books devoted to creating Landing Pages that will capture interest.

The penalties for too many landing pages can be severe, as I understand it. Google can delist the entire site!

Obviously, we have two direct opposing views on landing sites. I'll shut up and let the ones with far more experience than me take over... (thanks!)
I'm kinda in the same boat as Andy. I'm not too concerned about duplicate content policies because I don't really give a shit if Google ranks my pages or not.

If was doing was doing local SEO for a client, then I would absolutely stay clear of Doorway Pages (that's what Google calls them).

But even when it comes to Doorway Pages, the rules on these are clearly "Google does whatever Google wants".

There are hundreds of large companies doing these type of pages (with exact duplicate content) and not getting any penalty. Example:

Car Rental Clifton, New Jersey from $29/day - Search for Cars on KAYAK
Find Cheap Car Rental Deals in Clifton NJ | CarRentals.com
https://www.enterprise.com/en/car-rental/locations/us/nj/clifton-24dc.html

Those are the top 3 organics for "car rental near me" when searching from Clifton, NJ.

They didn't bother to put anything about Clifton, or New Jersey, or anything to differentiate this page from say, Boulder, CO. The Boulder page will look exactly the same minus the town and state name really (I don't feel like grabbing the page right now).

These pages are all just created using a script - they have them for every city/district in multiple countries.

I think Google just wants to make sure that they are providing the searcher with the information they want, and clickthrough rate and bounce rate are the metrics that best verify that Google is spitting out the right results for any given search.

If you search car rental, these pages are absolutely what you'd be looking for.

So Google let's them get away with it, regardless of what their policy says.

Back to paid search:

The best practice for paid ads is proven: super relevant landers with huge headlines that mimic the search intent:

Squirrel Removal in Beverly Hills
The Top Immigration Lawyer in Westminster
Alligator Handling in South Florida

As long as the message is transferred from Search Intent ---> Ad Copy ---> Landing Page, you will get clicks more than 90% of advertisers trying all this gimmicky crap and stupid headlines that don't relate.

By the time you've completed a good AdWords campaign, you might have hundreds or thousands of landing pages.
 
Last edited:

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If was doing was doing local SEO for a client, then I would absolutely stay clear of Doorway Pages (that's what Google calls them).
Absolutely - that's a pretty strong word you chose. I can put the exact same page within my website, instead of a stand alone landing page. Funny - as an included page, it's all good. But make it a doorway page, and you would "absolutely stay clear." That's the kind of info I need. But this doesn't completely answer my question...

There are hundreds of large companies doing these type of pages (with exact duplicate content) and not getting any penalty. Example:
So, using this information, and knowing I will not be using pages that are clones in any way whatsoever, I should have nothing to fear. So now I am back at my choice - include a page in my site as an add on, or make it stand alone.

I think Google just wants to make sure that they are providing the searcher with the information they want, and clickthrough rate and bounce rate are the metrics that best verify that Google is spitting out the right results for any given search.
If I include them in my main website, my "visit rate" (whatever it's called) will be high as I will have maybe 15 devoted pages of interest that will attract clicks. That's a good thing - maybe. But I don't want to be like a Super Wal-Mart store, in having SO much there that things get lost. I want to be precise and effective by targeting an subject someone is looking for - such as pest removal, Boulder CO. In fact that's a perfect example. I could target all the key phrases, such as 1) Pest Removal 2) Insect Removal 3) Termite Removal 4) Bedbug Removal, etc. I could have 12 landing pages, each devoted to a common search query. That sounds like the best way to go...?

By the time you've completed a good AdWords campaign, you might have hundreds or thousands of landing pages.
I'm not sure what your meaning is here. Do you mean that I should NOT waste my efforts on landing pages because I will have to have hundreds of them to be effective, and an AdWords campaign can do so much more in less time? Or do you mean that having hundreds of landing pages is a great idea, and will be very effective? Your total message swings from "absolutely avoiding landing pages" to "they can be successful, and you can do a lot of them for good results."

Sorry to not quite get this. In my intense studying, everyone is pushing "their" agenda. The landing page people say that is the absolute best thing to do. The SEO people say avoid them at all costs, as my ENTIRE site can be delisted. That's quite a spread of opinion. Your information is great, but not focused enough for my basic understanding.

This pertains to real estate. I'm dividing up the topics between buyers and sellers, mostly. For sellers, as an example - an entire page on "what my home is worth?" For buyers, it might be, "The six biggest mistakes buyers make in buying their first home." On and on - I have dozens of articles tailored to very specific topics that deserve more than a paragraph or two to explain.

Maybe I'm just on the wrong path completely. Maybe I should be doing AdWords or Facebook ads entirely?

Any insight is greatly appreciated. Thanks so much!
 

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I don't do (or care) about SEO.

We pay Google for traffic from their search engine to landing pages and domains.
I know this is all second nature to you Andy. You speak the language. But let me try and illustrate how what you said seems like a contradiction to me.

You pay for Adwords to be placed on a search result. Let's say you are a jeweler. There is a specialized demand for black pearl necklaces and earrings. You have many choices:

1) Include a page in your existing jewelry website that is devoted to black pearls.
2) Make a landing page that has a title page called "Black Pearls"
3) Make a landing page that has a title page called "Black Pearl Necklaces"
4) Make a landing page having the title "Black Pearl Jewelry"

Let's say, to be safe, you do all of those things.

You would show up BECAUSE you paid Google AdWords for any search of those titles? In other words, you would NOT show up, even if you had all of those pages, on a google search of those titles because you did NOT pay for an AdWords search?

If paying for AdWords search is the magic ticket, then there's no reason to care about SEO really - you "go to the front of the line" because you pay for preferred treatment? Am I understanding that right?

Using this example, how would you approach this?

Thanks for your insight. I like your "in your face SEO" attitude. I'm just trying to figure out where your confidence comes from to think that way.
 

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I know this is all second nature to you Andy. You speak the language. But let me try and illustrate how what you said seems like a contradiction to me.

You pay for Adwords to be placed on a search result. Let's say you are a jeweler. There is a specialized demand for black pearl necklaces and earrings. You have many choices:

1) Include a page in your existing jewelry website that is devoted to black pearls.
2) Make a landing page that has a title page called "Black Pearls"
3) Make a landing page that has a title page called "Black Pearl Necklaces"
4) Make a landing page having the title "Black Pearl Jewelry"

Let's say, to be safe, you do all of those things.

You would show up BECAUSE you paid Google AdWords for any search of those titles? In other words, you would NOT show up, even if you had all of those pages, on a google search of those titles because you did NOT pay for an AdWords search?

If paying for AdWords search is the magic ticket, then there's no reason to care about SEO really - you "go to the front of the line" because you pay for preferred treatment? Am I understanding that right?

Using this example, how would you approach this?

Thanks for your insight. I like your "in your face SEO" attitude. I'm just trying to figure out where your confidence comes from to think that way.
SEO is Search Engine Optimization - it's the result of super intensive, tedious work that may or may not yield results, and even if they do, they're kind of hard to explain to clients. Proper SEO will give you a high-ranking organic result on the top page for the search: "black pearl necklaces"

AdWords (paid ads) are when you pay to put your listing on the front page of Google, as an ad.

Having a top result is great, whether it's from SEO or from AdWords...

They both have benefits for different purposes...

If you had the best marketing team in the world, you would ideally want to be the top paid ad (AdWords) AND the top organic result (SEO). This would give you the most visibility, and the highest chance of getting a click (and ultimately a conversion).

You can see this when you search ANYTHING + "amazon"

Just type in "black pearl necklaces amazon"...

They will often have the top paid result AND the top organic result

But if you're just getting started, you probably don't have the money, time, or patience for both, so it's way easier to just start up an AdWords campaign.

It's alot easier to learn, alot easier to understand mathematically (in terms of ROI... it's easier to attribute results to AdWords - easier than SEO), you can get results quicker, and it's more reliable and predictable.

The only downside is that you are basing your whole biz off of AdWords, and that's why you need to grow customer lists, referral programs, etc.
 

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You guys made me realise this was a lot simpler than I thought.

I considered this, but thought about how hard it would be to count the leads and to have ways of measuring it properly to charge on a per lead basis.

This monthly 'program' is much simpler and easier to run.

Thank you. This was eye opening for me..

BTW have any of you considered focusing on small towns for this strategy ? Specially with a monthly fee, this would be quite profitable, given that you can just have ads in one or two cities which costs less and has less competition.

Seems quite simple to me. Not easy but simple. Pull that Sam Walton strategy, focus on small cities for the most part then expand.
 
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You guys made me realise this was a lot simpler than I thought.

I considered this, but thought about how hard it would be to count the leads and to have ways of measuring it properly to charge on a per lead basis.

This monthly 'program' is much simpler and easier to run.

Thank you. This was eye opening for me..

BTW have any of you considered focusing on small towns for this strategy ? Specially with a monthly fee, this would be quite profitable, given that you can just have ads in one or two cities which costs less and has less competition.

Seems quite simple to me. Not easy but simple. Pull that Sam Walton strategy, focus on small cities for the most part then expand.
Every vertical I get into, I offer my services for dirt cheap so I can learn the vertical while putting little risk on the client.

Then once I have a proven system, I can duplicate the system in another geographic location (same vertical) and charge monthly. As long as they're profiting, they'll keep paying.

This is my plan right now. I'm almost done with my first system (pest control).

Then I'll switch the ON button and let it gather data so I can learn and optimize...

Then I'll work on the next vertical while I collect data for pest control.

When I'm confident that my pest control system in pulling quality leads consistently (at a profit), then I'll make a nice sales pitch and start prospecting in other locations
 

Andy Black

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BTW have any of you considered focusing on small towns for this strategy ? Specially with a monthly fee, this would be quite profitable, given that you can just have ads in one or two cities which costs less and has less competition.

Seems quite simple to me. Not easy but simple. Pull that Sam Walton strategy, focus on small cities for the most part then expand.
Sure. So long as there’s enough search volume that the client can get ROI on your fee and the ad spend.

Often those small towns/villages are part of the geography for some business that serves a lot of locations.
 

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