Patents and China

[Leo Lex]

Then why are you even considering building a physical product? You will never have a guarantee that nobody will rip you off. So you have two basic options:
1. Accept that as a fact of life and follow the advice from @OldFaithful (who assembles his product in the US if I'm not mistaken) and others who have gone down that road.
2. Draw a line in the sand and say: "If there is a good chance someone will benefit illegally from my work, I don't want to do it.

From what I understand, you choose option 2. So you forgo on a chance to start a business that might become your fastlane because you can't stand the fact that someone will rip you off.
I will tell you: At the same time, hundreds of people will say "Well, F*ck it", build a physical product, make a ton of money with it and eventually get ripped off. Let's assume they now have to start from zero (which I doubt in most cases):

• You will be at point zero because you never started.
• They will be at point zero with a ton of money and a buttload of experience.

Honestly, F*ck the people that will rip you off. You are here to make a ton of money, not to prevent them from making any.

Petkovic, a moral issue is a moral issue. Dreams, ambitions, vision and desire are effected by money last, if at all. Remember Achilles and how after having a single slave girl taken away the whole treasure of the world was not enough to persuade him. You should understand now, I am not in it for the money, having known both affluence and poverty I care for something else.

Also helping one's destroyers to become more powerful is the equivalent of suicide. The best strategy long term, and not short term, is to strangle them from any values and when they fall to then start.
Which is probably going to happen. Remember, a tyranny is like a decrepit festering house not fit to live in. It is destined for ruin. Only a matter of time until such a corrupt state falls. Alas a particular real-estate politician might even tighten the noose faster then expected.

Also I am a biologist by study. Now I am researching grafting because it is both useful and one can keep it a secret.

 

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[Bijourama]

Now to address the "practical" issues. But first a real thanks for you'r help and comments. Sincerely.
The only solution to theft is either a bullet or jail time for the thief. I would like to that personally but unless the government does that that leads to anarchy. Anarchy is not good for anyone.

IP is not like property rights IMHO. If for example you have an idea for a toilet and I take that idea, I did not steal anything from you. You still have your idea. IP can be created indefinitely. Government just tries to artificially create scarcity to replicate property rights.

Here is a case against IP for those interested: https://mises.org/library/case-against-ip-concise-guide

 

[petkovic]

Petkovic, a moral issue is a moral issue. Dreams, ambitions, vision and desire are effected by money last, if at all. Remember Achilles and how after having a single slave girl taken away the whole treasure of the world was not enough to persuade him. You should understand now, I am not in it for the money, having known both affluence and poverty I care for something else.

Also helping one's destroyers to become more powerful is the equivalent of suicide. The best strategy long term, and not short term, is to strangle them from any values and when they fall to then start.
Which is probably going to happen. Remember, a tyranny is like a decrepit festering house not fit to live in. It is destined for ruin. Only a matter of time until such a corrupt state falls. Alas a particular real-estate politician might even tighten the noose faster then expected.

Also I am a biologist by study. Now I am researching grafting because it is both useful and one can keep it a secret.

Ok, I guess for me the whole China ripoff thing is more nuisance than morale but I completely respect your standpoint. I wouldn't base my hopes too much on Trump, though. Ripoff is the Chinese business model and if you break their economy, you get a destabilized China. And then toilets could potentially be the least of your worries. I don't think it would change all that much on that front if Trump was elected.

 

[Leo Lex]

IP is not like property rights IMHO. If for example you have an idea for a toilet and I take that idea, I did not steal anything from you. You still have your idea. IP can be created indefinitely. Government just tries to artificially create scarcity to replicate property rights.

Here is a case against IP for those interested: https://mises.org/library/case-against-ip-concise-guide

You are wrong. For more information view this.

Property is not about theft and not to use something or not. Property is about whether a society respects the consent of an individual for others to use what he makes.
Consent is the distinction between many things, trade and theft, sex and rape, use and infringement.

 

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[Leo Lex]

Ok, I guess for me the whole China ripoff thing is more nuisance than morale but I completely respect your standpoint. I wouldn't base my hopes too much on Trump, though. Ripoff is the Chinese business model and if you break their economy, you get a destabilized China. And then toilets could potentially be the least of your worries. I don't think it would change all that much on that front if Trump was elected.

The Chinese are weak, they are weak on the inside and put everything to make themselves look strong, a small push and they could be finished. A destabilized China is just a few feudal lords in perpetual civil war among themselves. For now I am refraining from anything China can use until they are no longer a factor.
Unless I found some way around it I will wait to make it and focus on other things. If someone has said solution I am all ears. Anything to pirating ships coming from China also is on the table, they have the most incompetent navy in the world.

 

[OldFaithful]

In this forum, we tend to focus on providing value. The $$$ will follow. The extreme of that is to be ambivalent towards $$$ and focus only on providing the value. Developing a Fastlane business model that provides enormous value to an enormous number of people is like the Holy Grail around here.

What's the worst that could happen? You produce a product that provides immeasurable value to a segment of the global population. You have a taste of success, but a giant player in the industry comes along and steals your idea. They make millions, and you barely cover your costs...but you've left your mark on the world. You've helped thousands, or millions, of people who suffer from this "particular affliction". You have the eternal satisfaction that you did something of real value...you might even end up with your own page on Wikipedia. How bad is that really? In truth, the worst that could happen is that you refrain from developing your product and untold numbers of people suffer from this "particular affliction" for years on end. All because you would rather not risk loss. Entrepreneurship entails risk and loss and untold fortunes that hang in the balance.

What's the best that could happen? You produce your product and have many great years of gargantuan sales while your competitors struggle to match your product performance, brand placement, name recognition, and market dominance. You improve on your own product, constantly innovating and revolutionizing the market. You become the Kleenex of tissues, the Xerox of copiers, the Coke of soft drinks, etc. In the process you've still helped thousands, or millions, of people who suffer from this "particular affliction". You still have the eternal satisfaction that you did something of real value...you might still end up with your own page on Wikipedia. In addition, you might make more $$$ than you'd ever dreamed. Is that worth the risk?

The decision is ultimately yours, but you can probably guess what I'd do in your shoes...

 

[Leo Lex]

As I said, this is the moral issue, not a material one. Material values mean little or nothing unless there is a spiritual (spiritual here meaning having to do with a conscious mind, no mystic woo-woo) being to enjoy them (notice that to enjoy is in itself an activity of consciousness). Aristotle told us that the ultimate aim of all action should be happiness. No happiness can come from knowing you enabled people you loathe.
Remember why Achilles was in his tent.
Alas it is not about money, not about million of other people, it is not even fully about me, it is about what is the world like due to my actions.

If you must know, and i presume you guessed so by now, the affliction in question is rectal hemorrhoids and constipation.

 

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[OldFaithful]

it is about what is the world like due to my actions

So is helping thousands, or millions, of people who suffer from this affliction the type of change you would like to make on the world or not?

 

[Leo Lex]

Not if it means helping the people who rip-off as a way of life.
That is a horrible long term plan.

 

[OldFaithful]

Why don't you send me a couple pics/sketches of your invention? I'll not rip it off, since I've asked politely and you've responded in kind.

I'll even be glad to mention your name in my Wikipedia page.

 

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[Ajita]

http://www.squattypotty.com/

http://www.squattypotty.com/5-problems-with-sitting-on-your-toilet/

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ESKVN7W/?tag=tff-amazonparser-20

 

[Leo Lex]

http://www.squattypotty.com/

http://www.squattypotty.com/5-problems-with-sitting-on-your-toilet/

http://www.amazon.com/Squatty-Potty-Original-Bathroom-Toilet/dp/B00ESKVN7W?ie=UTF8&keywords=squatty potty&qid=1464287399&ref_=sr_1_1_a_it&sr=8-1

same principle (with more attention to the caveats), different attachments and applications. in fact it is not nearly the same thing as it.

 

[Leo Lex]

If anyone wants to see in art what it means for an inventor to take responsibility for his work see Iron Man.
Tony Stark sees that his genius was used to create death and destruction. His very own Frankenstein monster and him as Dr. Frankenstein.

The best real life example is of Dr. Fritz Harper, while trying to make a pesticide in Nazi Germany he made a gas that was deadly to humans by accident. This gas was easily transformed into Zyclone B, the same gas that was used to slaughter his family in a death camp.

Bottom line, inventions are powerful, they have the power to change the world for the better or for the worst. Therefore one needs to be very careful with them as a general rule.

 

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[OldFaithful]

@Leo Lex, There is another way.

You don't want to be ripped off...then why not consider selling your idea/patent to one of the big players in the market? You & your Grandfather get compensated, they are less likely to be ripped off because they have the connections & the lawyers, and the world is still made a better place. Win win.

 

[David Young]

+1 on this. Good advice.
https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/co...ort-import-product-sourcing-specialist.55062/
Excellent thread.

@Leo Lex , your concern is quite common in the field of Physical Products, but not necessarily so for those in eCommerce. (BTW, there is a section of this forum dedicated to Physical Products.)

@germandude has some good points about focusing on the "Need" and developing your product before worrying about future IP theft.

@Phones made an excellent point about the Chinese, and most IP theives in general. They simply won't bother with you or your product until you have gained some market share and sales volume. That can buy you time and then you'll have the $$$ to afford the necessary lawyers.

I like to give credit where credit is due.

The threat of IP theft is going to be ever-present in this global economy. We can't let that derail us though, nor can we wait on politicians to help us. Real solutions tend to come from the marketplace, by folks like us, and not from governments. Don't wait for conditions in the marketplace to be perfect, just get started and learn as you go. You'll encounter surprises along the way and probably come up with ingenious solutions that others might miss. That's the nature of entrepreneurship. Personally, I see several approaches one might take to help prevent IP theft.
1) Source from multiple offshore vendors in different locales. It's certainly easier to buy your entire product fully assembled from a single manufacturer, but it has a ton of risk. If you buy the parts from different suppliers and have your own assembly facility, you can reduce some of this risk. No one supplier has the entire picture, at least in the early phase. It's common knowledge that there is a lot of "cross talk" among Chinese suppliers, so use suppliers from other countries too. 1 part from China, another from Mexico, etc. Don't let the concept of putting together your own assembly facility derail you. Start small.
2) Source entirely from domestic suppliers. Domestic suppliers are much more conscious of IP law and the threat of theft is reduced...not eliminated, but reduced. If you chose domestic suppliers and get a domestic patent, then you have some protection in the largest consumer market in the world. Offshore thieves might be able to copy your product and sell to other markets, but you should have better protection here at home.
3) Vertical integration. It might take some doing, but if you can figure out how to bring as much of the manufacturing under your own roof as possible, you can limit the number of people that have access to your internal knowledge. If there is an integral/critical process to the product or it's manufacture, learn how that is done and do it "in house". That makes it much harder for thieves to steal because no one else knows that piece of the puzzle.
4) Ignore IP theft all together. Focus on getting sales of the product and once you've found your niche or sales outlet(s)...Just Kill It. Build brand recognition as being the only source to solve this "particular affliction". Make them chase you, but because you are so aggressively leading the market, the thieves can never match your contribution to VALUE. Excel in your field.
5) Any combination of the 4 mentioned above.

If your product is the innovative solution you appear to believe, then your customers will be willing to pay a premium to cover the added costs of my previous suggestions. How much would your grandfather be willing to pay to replace his old toilet with your new product???

I agree, create value first. Work the process. There is always some trying to rip you off in one form or another.

 

[458]

Im not willing to build nor cross a bridge that once I cross over it someone else will benefit other then me.
Such motivations should not be perplexing.

Also invention is what it is, needs as well. By observing their nature one can easily find out their secret and have confidence even with little testing. Which I already did. I assume the part about it being shit is not a pun.

Alas i, unlike you, am not one to sit idly while his dream flees from his palms. I know the Chinese stole from a many inventors after they worked hard, im not willing to be another one. I don't work so someone who did not work can profit off me. Period.

Then you will never be anything. Your greed and ego is so large that it cannot escape itself and benefit the world. We have a word for you in America, it's called idiot.

Much to learn grasshopper. That is all

 

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[Leo Lex]

The one her i see as an idiot is he who can not see beyond the short-term. Profit now to weep tomorrow, that is who you are thinking like. And I would not be suprised if one day you wake up with all of it gone and say "what?i did not see that coming!". Last time I checked only greedy and egoistical people go down in history, or change the world or do anything worth mentioning.

 

[Leo Lex]

@Leo Lex, There is another way.

You don't want to be ripped off...then why not consider selling your idea/patent to one of the big players in the market? You & your Grandfather get compensated, they are less likely to be ripped off because they have the connections & the lawyers, and the world is still made a better place. Win win.

Wouldn't matter, in fact it will be worse. The idea will still get ripped off and if anything more likely to be ripped off since big companies think short term on this anyway.

 

[Leo Lex]

I agree, create value first. Work the process. There is always some trying to rip you off in one form or another.

David, would you create a company just to have later someone take parts of it until you have nothing? Just to get rich on the short-term?

 

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[David Young]

Leo, this entire thread is becoming one big circular argument. You are clearly so concerned about potential patent infringement that you will not even start the process necessary to build your business irrespective of the comments made by others. Your product and business skill might be rubbish? This is of course your prerogative. However, please do not waste any more or my time unless you are prepared to listen.

To answer your question directly, yes i would love to be able to build a company that many will try and copy. That is indeed my aim. I want to build a business that is so good others will try and replicate. The key is to hit the ground running and just as everyone else is catching up you pivot, you innovate, you keep moving. Many business models, products and services, are copied will little impact on the profitability of the original company. Just look at Uber- there are many ride hailing/ sharing apps getting huge investment at the moment because it is a massive market that can't be satisfied by a single provider. Do you think Johnny Ives/Apple worried about making the IPhone too good because someone might copy?

Patents have a finite time span. Therefore even if you did ensure absolute protection for your design it would eventually come to and end. This happens to even the biggest brands (hence the multitude of Lego copies that have hit the market in recent years for example). You have made you position entirely clear in your previous posts. Only you can make that decision.

If your invention is so good and will help others as your state then it is incredibly selfish of you to keep it to yourself, for fear that you might not make enough money. You state you have the solution to a common health problem but won't tell the world because you might not make enough money!!!!

I would rathe be guy who helped someone for nothing than the guy turned his back?

What about you?

ps, this inst a cameo appearance by Martin Shkreli is it?

 

[Leo Hendrix]

@Leo Lex dude, so many fastlaners here offered you free and great advice, damn you even have a very experienced metallurgist with a PhD offering you free advice!

You either want to brag or you're just wasting your time, as Dan Norris said you don't learn or gain ANYTHING until you launch.

If you wish to continue mental masturbation that is up to you, the Chinese will live on and might even develop into a country where they respect IP law while someone else actually EXECUTES on a similar or even the same idea you had.

Anyway sorry I don't have much to offer now you although I live in Taipei.

There is ALWAYS a workaround, either around or through, reverse engineering etc so many approaches you might never know that could work until you actually TRY.

I'll post something concrete when I think of it or have time to but as Paul Coelho said in the Alchemist:

There is only one thing that makes a dream impossible to achieve: the fear of failure.

 

[Leo Lex]

I told 100 times. It is a moral issue. I have nothing meaningful to gain and everything important for happiness to lose. I do not care much about money, there are many ways to achieve money, few ways to achieve lasting glory. I want to change the world for the better using inventions, in history inventors who are oblivious to how people use their products become monster. See fictional Tony Stark or real life Fritz Harper, Alfred Noble. (Noble had to donate all of his money to a prize to redeem himself!)

I don't care if its selfish or not, I am doing this for me. All inventors are selfish people, almost no one is in it solely for the money. The general disrespect in today's culture towards inventors is the main reason for the lack of progress. I have nothing to lose from not publishing, it is the world who suffers, which it deserves. And if you didn't figure it out already when you copy a business model that is fair, when you copy a patent you are stealing. Theft, robbery, stealing.

All of you are mostly wrong. None of you are inventors yourself and are only in business for the lifestyle it can provide, nothing wrong with that, so it is natural you will not immediately understand. Motivational reasons are more important then material reasons, no meaningful motivation can come knowing you are feeding the people you loathe. I told you this before, and you seem to be incapable or unwilling to understand this.

From now I am not going to listen to any advice unless from someone that has experience with patents, preferably physical patents and not software. Only fools take advice from each and everyone.

(A general note regarding our house metallurgist, advice from an expert is only expert advice in the field in which he is an expert. Also a general note, the Chinese will never IP rights, if you say that you are wholly ignorant to what they are and what IP is.)

 

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[ExaltedLife]

Oh, @David Young, one final question if you may. Why does Chinese Steel out compete USA Steel or Brazilian Steel?
Here I really have no idea.

They don't always. Chinese steel is getting a bad rep, at least here in Canada, because it is often poorly made. Also, steel is heavy as F*ck, so shipping it is never fun for the margins. I recently learned these things from my new job (EARNING CAPITAL) as a CNC operator in a steel parts factory.

Oh btw this is Blake.

 

[David Young]

The weight can be an issue. Depends on the product. Density is often a bigger concern. It can be cheaper to ship finished steel than the raw materials (iron ore, coke etc) as these include a large % of waste. The Canadian steel industry has really taken a hit recently with a couple of firms going into the equivalent of Chapter 11. Tough times, i wish them the best.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[petkovic]

I don't care if its selfish or not, I am doing this for me.

Doing what? As far as I can tell, you are not doing anything, or am I missing something?

 

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[Leo Lex]

Doing what? As far as I can tell, you are not doing anything, or am I missing something?

Put simply, it is not of your business.