Patents and China

[Leo Lex]

Hello. Me and my grandfather both suffer from a particular affliction. To solve this problem he and I made a toilet that mitigates the problem. In doing so we came with a design for a superior toilet. Better in nigh every way then the conventional western toilets. My grandfather being once a successful businessman in aluminum wanted to patent the invention.
We got an opinion from a Doctor in the field who has patented inventions, he asked 3 questions. What was the idea, how will you get medical permits, what will you do about the Chinese? We had an answer for the first two questions but the last had us stomped. The doctor said no matter how good our ideas were it meant nothing if after it is popular the Chinese would copy it and we would not see a dime.
Then we talked to 3 other inventor friends of my Grandfather, they said the same thing.

I am curious, have any of you run into the same problem concerning patents and the Chinese?
If you did, did you solve them, how?

 

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[David Young]

Hello and Welcome.
I don't like to generalise but from my personal experience they do not respect international patent law- though this is gradually changing as they are becoming more integrated in global trade deals.

However, you have touched on a particularly interesting subject. The western and Chinese approach to toilets are quite different. On the premise that your design has the same basic form as a western toilet (sit rather than squat) then there will be littler (though growing) demand within China. The majority of any Chinese manufacture would be for an export market. As it is export it would have to pass through customers and some form of agent/middleman/reseller. It might be possible to hold these sales funnels accountable as they should adhere to local law.

There will also be the threat of copies. However, this should not put your off. Take this as a reason to keep innovating, and offer value to the customer. There are plenty of consumers prepared to pay a premium for the original branded item.

 

[Leo Lex]

A few things, first thanks for the advice but I do not think you realize the nature of the situation.

Having been raised in Beijing from 2005-2009 I can some things about the Chinese mindset.
A) The Chinese do not have sophisticated ideas and ideologies, they do what they think works at the given moment. (Do not ask what "work" needs to do for the Chinese, the Chinese do not know either.)
B) The Chinese view screwing over westerns as virtuous, some of them view it only as neutral but not good for the long run as it upsets relations and losses face.
Now with that in mind, it is safe to say that the whole attempt to have IP (Intellectual Property) in China is only a rouse in order to pacify the west. The "utility model" prevalent in China (and only in China) is a joke and can be easily abused, a feature not a bug. Alas the Chinese do not respect physical property of their own citizens, let alone intellectual property of foreigners.

The particular design of the toilet is of no concern here.

I wish it was true that in general there would be people who would rather buy the original, alas if that was true China would not be as wealthy as it is now (as most of it's products are copies).

The only hope in the distance now is the talk of tariffs by Donald Trump regarding China. Which should halt them from copying the design.

 

[Phones]

The only hope in the distance now is the talk of tariffs by Donald Trump regarding China. Which should halt them from copying the design.

lol.

 

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[Leo Lex]

lol.

I am glad my hope to not be robbed of my work is funny for you.

 

[Phones]

Look @Leo Lex I'm not going to lecture anyone on how Tariffs won't stop anything. The Chinese would kill you even with a 100% Tariff. They have scale and efficiency to cut costs without jeopardizing the quality (even tho they more often than not also do). Waiting for Trump to solve your problems... damn.

You're trying to revolutionize an industry that hasn't changed for over a century. Our toilets are inefficient, poorly designed, but it's what everyone uses and there won't be a market change anytime soon. Bill Gates has been funding research and trying to break this, and he won't be going into our houses anytime soon either (for a bunch of reasons, mentality + switching costs, etc...)

The Chinese copying you is the least of your worries. You'll be a niche of a niche, the Chinese like volume, they won't even notice you (and that's a good thing, if you have niche margins).

 

[Leo Lex]

That is false, the Chinese have a leg up on the west for a very simple reasons. In the west people pay inventors in forms of patents and IP to use their invention, in China you are free to forgo that fee. Thus everything made in China is cheaper.
Alas ask yourself how much is gained from having more manpower? 100000 manual laborers can not match 1 engineer and his invention.
Don't be fooled that the Chinese somehow are smarter then the west or more efficient, they are neither smarter nor do they have better management style. Remember, China is a country where one needs to ask permission to think. I know, i lived there.
In that sense the Chinese are sypnoning the west by taking their signature attribute, free thought and it's product. In the form of infringement on IP. For each of those mass produced made-in-China junk various inventors would have gotten anywhere from .05% to 2% of the profits.

Policy makers and economists know this yet no one is willing to do anything. Only Trump appears to be aware of China's modus operandy in economics. It is not just me but numerous other inventors who see hope for them to profit from their work.
If you do not understand the nature of the situation I advise you not to comment lest you make yourself seem like a fool to people who do understand.

I don't think you understand. This is not a toilet for a "niche" of people. This is a toilet for anyone with a functioning anus and straight intestine. Being actually superior in every way. Therefore the Chinese are the largest problem.

 

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[Phones]

Sure, everything is cheap in China due to disregard of Patents and IP. Having huge Industrial zones with all the accessory industries nearby, with huge economies of scale, cheap raw materials nearby, doesn't count.

China has problems, sure. But your disdain for their operandi is way exaggerated. The China whose competitiveness came exclusively of the cheap "manual work" you talk about, is gone for the most part, I don't know how long ago you lived there, but I recommend a visit to any industrial city.

Let's wait for Trump to solve your problems. You may then try to sell your toilets to everyone with an anus, because you know, that won't be your biggest problem, the Chinese will.

 

[Leo Lex]

I have been to China, you have not, what a fool i would have to be to listen to you!? Those things exist in many places, and in many they are far better. Yet China is in the lead and it's only distinction is lack of Patents. Even morons can figure that one out.
I see you have nothing to offer nor do you know anything on the issue. I will refrain from talking to you. Farewell.

 

[Phones]

Greetings from Wenzhou. Much IP theft here. Such wow.

 

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[Leo Lex]

I want to make clear for more honest and intelligent on-lookers about the role of government and the securing of property, in the form of IP.
Patents are popularly under attack, many people use the term patent-troll to denounce people who want to profit from their inventions and hard work, politicians seem to have no respect for IP either. So this topic is important hence.

Property Rights are a vital aspect of civilization, despotic hellholes lack them. Observe Venezuela, Cuba, USSR and even China to see what happens when they are absent.
People make proper governments to protect themselves from people who would steal what is theirs. Intellectual property are things that are a product of thought that belong to people. The USA or any western government not enforcing their citizens right to not have their Patents infringed in China is the same as if the Chinese would sail to the USA and rob the house of an inventor.
With that in mind any economical action against the Chinese would be a proper step.
Remember, no meaningful growth or creation can happen if your neighbor is free to steal from you. Same thing with inventors and China.

 

[Leo Lex]

I told you already, you are ignorant and not worth talking to. Period.
A picture of you having a trip to a Chinese city is not enough to even begin to convince me you know anything about the Chinese.

 

[germandude]

The F*ck is with you people with the nonstop fighting these days? Between this and the kid's retirement thread, the forum has become negative as F*ck.

Here is the deal @Leo Lex. How about worrying about that bridge when you get there. You have done nothing to ensure market need/fit and you are here rambling about the Chinese. Right now, they are the least of your troubles. Instead, start testing your product, see if there is a need and do some product testing and iterations to make it perfect. You don't want to spend money building something that either no one wants or has huge faults. Make the toilet as good as possible, then patent it. To be quite honest, you idea might be shit. Test, test, test. There might be a reason nobody has done what you are doing.

Also don't be so bitchy OP. China has stolen designs from companies much larger than your idea and I am sorry to tell you, but there is no cure.

 

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[Leo Lex]

Im not willing to build nor cross a bridge that once I cross over it someone else will benefit other then me.
Such motivations should not be perplexing.

Also invention is what it is, needs as well. By observing their nature one can easily find out their secret and have confidence even with little testing. Which I already did. I assume the part about it being shit is not a pun.

Alas i, unlike you, am not one to sit idly while his dream flees from his palms. I know the Chinese stole from a many inventors after they worked hard, im not willing to be another one. I don't work so someone who did not work can profit off me. Period.

 

[petkovic]

I recommend you look at importing threads by @Walter Hay and @biophase. They source their products in China and so they have come across product/design theft issues.
Some of the takeaways you will find there: There are Chinese companies that will not rip you off (which means there are others who will) and your best bet is to constantly innovate your product. Although my personal experience is zero, a possible conclusion for your case could be that one improved toilet design is likely to get ripped off. But if you become a specialist product innovator for all anus-related activities you might do very well.

I have been an engineering consultant to Chinese production companies. Although of course it varies from person to person, generally speaking they are far away from ever having the intention of creating something original.

 

[David Young]

The Chinese have certainly been known to copy intellectual property and there is limited opportunity to address this. However, this only plays a small role in why they can produce at a lower cost than the west. Subsidised utilised, extended debt facilities, lower labour rates, scale- numerous factors are at play. As a real world example you only have to look at the low cost of Chinese steel. Native overcapacity subsidised by the government has forced global prices down and not an IP infringement in sight.
You cant let fear stop the process else we would all be paralysed.


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[Leo Lex]

Thank you very much Petkovic. I am indeed grateful.

 

[Leo Lex]

The Chinese have certainly been known to copy intellectual property and there is limited opportunity to address this. However, this only plays a small role in why they can produce at a lower cost than the west. Subsidised utilised, extended debt facilities, lower labour rates, scale- numerous factors are at play. As a real world example you only have to look at the low cost of Chinese steel. Native overcapacity subsidised by the government has forced global prices down and not an IP infringement in sight.
You cant let fear stop the process else we would all be paralysed.


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That is not true. The Chinese have been known to be in access of trade secrets they stole and other Patent infringement in the realm of Steel Production. I happen to know a professor of Metallurgy that was effected by this directly.

Also all the things you mentioned apply to Brazil and other South American countries, South Africa, Russia and others just as well, if not more so. However the Chinese still come on top, and they started very poor, and to top it all off they have one of the worst forms of governments in history. And they only have one big big difference. They rip-off western inventors. And believe me technological innovation is the wild-card in these things. I can name dozens of the impact of new inventions and their change on industries.

I rather let the world enjoy the fruits of my labor then have them eat said fruits without me getting my deserts. That is just the type of person I am. So are also many other inventors, quite yet passionate people. China could very well be the biggest halter on technological progress in our times for this.

 

[petkovic]

I rather let the world enjoy the fruits of my labor then have them eat said fruits without me getting my deserts. That is just the type of person I am. So are also many other inventors, quite yet passionate people. China could very well be the biggest halter on technological progress in our times for this.

On the other hand, China is responsible for the fact that consumers can buy a lot of useful and useless stuff at an affordable price, thus improving living standards in the rest of the world. Think of smartphones as only one example.

And of course, fastlaners get to sell this stuff to the people, which is nice, too

 

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[Leo Lex]

On the other hand, China is responsible for the fact that consumers can buy a lot of useful and useless stuff at an affordable price, thus improving living standards in the rest of the world. Think of smartphones as only one example.

And of course, fastlaners get to sell this stuff to the people, which is nice, too

That is very, very shortsighted thinking. The only reason we have this short term boon is because inventors are loosing out in the long term. Also believe me it is no one's interest to live in a world that has the same technological progress 30 years from now as it did 5 years ago.

Alas it is worse for one reason, it not just. And no happiness can come from enjoying yourself while knowing you are better thanks to the misery of others.

 

[David Young]

Though i agree with some of your points i respectfully disagree with you on many. For example the South African steel industry is hamstrung by poor electrical supplies, the Russian steel industry is limited by a massively corrupt government, Mexico has union issues. I know because i am involved with them almost daily. I wish you luck and will leave this discussion wondering why you raised this question when you had all the answers. Good luck.


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[Leo Lex]

I raised the question not because i wanted any answers, i wanted better answers building upon what I already know.
Never ask a question unless you already do know something about it, if you do not then you are sure to waste your time either by being fooled into the wrong idea or by checking everything ten dozen times and still not being sure.

Oh, @David Young, one final question if you may. Why does Chinese Steel out compete USA Steel or Brazilian Steel?
Here I really have no idea.

 

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[David Young]

Oh ok. It unfortunately not as simple as on country supplier out performing another. If you addressed the economic viability of the manufacturers themselves they would likely all be considered disastrous. It is only state funding in china that is stopping the bankruptcies seen elsewhere. If you look at the product itself then the term steel is a little misleading as this covers a range of products from rail track, through rebar to forgings and car bodies. Those products that the Chinese manufacture for export are, i believe, at the commodity end of the market: price is key, they can be stock piled, freight is cheap etc. If you go to the premium end then the Chinese are less competitive international. Though this has as much to do with geography as anything. For example, i don't believe it is cost effective to export formed tin plated steel cans-as they are mostly air. These are therefore often made local to the food producers. Automotive manufactures often demand just in time delivery so buy local. Most steel mills are established to either serve a local market or covert local raw material. Where China also do well is in the export of steel in the finished form(white goods for example) because of the local manufacturing base - this is not down to the quality of the steel but the demand of local manufacturers.


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[Leo Lex]

Oh ok. It unfortunately not as simple as on country supplier out performing another. If you addressed the economic viability of the manufacturers themselves they would likely all be considered disastrous. It is only state funding in china that is stopping the bankruptcies seen elsewhere. If you look at the product itself then the term steel is a little misleading as this covers a range of products from rail track, through rebar to forgings and car bodies. Those products that the Chinese manufacture for export are, i believe, at the commodity end of the market: price is key, they can be stock piled, freight is cheap etc. If you go to the premium end then the Chinese are less competitive international. Though this has as much to do with geography as anything. For example, i don't believe it is cost effective to export formed tin plated steel cans-as they are mostly air. These are therefore often made local to the food producers. Automotive manufactures often demand just in time delivery so buy local. Most steel mills are established to either serve a local market or covert local raw material. Where China also do well is in the export of steel in the finished form(white goods for example) because of the local manufacturing base - this is not down to the quality of the steel but the demand of local manufacturers.


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Ok that is legitimately interesting though it is a lot of disparate facts to look at from many angles.
Alas by what process, steps, way do you know these facts to be what they are? I am not asking because I think you are dishonest, I am asking because there is no Why without a How.

 

[David Young]

Its my slow lane career. I am a metallurgist and work in the steel industry supply chain. I therefore deal with buyers and engineers in steel industry daily. Much of this information is gained from experience. I also have a doctoral degree in steel manufacturing and therefore am familiar with much of the underlying science and technology. My network of colleagues and customers keep me abreast of developments and issues.


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[Leo Lex]

Ok that sounds much cooler then most things fastlane. I know sacrilege. Perhaps i watched too many Iron Man movies/comics. Also there was a book I read where one of the main characters invented a whole new type of Metal called Rearden Metal. Super awesome.
It was looking into the development of Bessemer Metal and Carnegie Steel that got me interested in the scientific method and philosophy to begin with.

 

[OldFaithful]

I recommend you look at importing threads by @Walter Hay and @biophase. They source their products in China and so they have come across product/design theft issues.

+1 on this. Good advice.
https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/co...ort-import-product-sourcing-specialist.55062/
Excellent thread.

@Leo Lex , your concern is quite common in the field of Physical Products, but not necessarily so for those in eCommerce. (BTW, there is a section of this forum dedicated to Physical Products.)

@germandude has some good points about focusing on the "Need" and developing your product before worrying about future IP theft.

@Phones made an excellent point about the Chinese, and most IP theives in general. They simply won't bother with you or your product until you have gained some market share and sales volume. That can buy you time and then you'll have the $$$ to afford the necessary lawyers.

I like to give credit where credit is due.

The threat of IP theft is going to be ever-present in this global economy. We can't let that derail us though, nor can we wait on politicians to help us. Real solutions tend to come from the marketplace, by folks like us, and not from governments. Don't wait for conditions in the marketplace to be perfect, just get started and learn as you go. You'll encounter surprises along the way and probably come up with ingenious solutions that others might miss. That's the nature of entrepreneurship. Personally, I see several approaches one might take to help prevent IP theft.
1) Source from multiple offshore vendors in different locales. It's certainly easier to buy your entire product fully assembled from a single manufacturer, but it has a ton of risk. If you buy the parts from different suppliers and have your own assembly facility, you can reduce some of this risk. No one supplier has the entire picture, at least in the early phase. It's common knowledge that there is a lot of "cross talk" among Chinese suppliers, so use suppliers from other countries too. 1 part from China, another from Mexico, etc. Don't let the concept of putting together your own assembly facility derail you. Start small.
2) Source entirely from domestic suppliers. Domestic suppliers are much more conscious of IP law and the threat of theft is reduced...not eliminated, but reduced. If you chose domestic suppliers and get a domestic patent, then you have some protection in the largest consumer market in the world. Offshore thieves might be able to copy your product and sell to other markets, but you should have better protection here at home.
3) Vertical integration. It might take some doing, but if you can figure out how to bring as much of the manufacturing under your own roof as possible, you can limit the number of people that have access to your internal knowledge. If there is an integral/critical process to the product or it's manufacture, learn how that is done and do it "in house". That makes it much harder for thieves to steal because no one else knows that piece of the puzzle.
4) Ignore IP theft all together. Focus on getting sales of the product and once you've found your niche or sales outlet(s)...Just Kill It. Build brand recognition as being the only source to solve this "particular affliction". Make them chase you, but because you are so aggressively leading the market, the thieves can never match your contribution to VALUE. Excel in your field.
5) Any combination of the 4 mentioned above.

If your product is the innovative solution you appear to believe, then your customers will be willing to pay a premium to cover the added costs of my previous suggestions. How much would your grandfather be willing to pay to replace his old toilet with your new product???

 

[Leo Lex]

I don't think you get it. I rather be poor and starving then put up with enriching people who do not deserve it. I work and they eat? I rather both of us starve. (And trust, in that type of relationship i only work more and they eat more).
Remember where Achilles was in the Iliad?

 

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[petkovic]

I don't think you get it. I rather be poor and starving then put up with enriching people who do not deserve it. I work and they eat? I rather both of us starve. (And trust, in that type of relationship i only work more and they eat more).
Remember where Achilles was in the Iliad?

Then why are you even considering building a physical product? You will never have a guarantee that nobody will rip you off. So you have two basic options:
1. Accept that as a fact of life and follow the advice from @OldFaithful (who assembles his product in the US if I'm not mistaken) and others who have gone down that road.
2. Draw a line in the sand and say: "If there is a good chance someone will benefit illegally from my work, I don't want to do it.

From what I understand, you choose option 2. So you forgo on a chance to start a business that might become your fastlane because you can't stand the fact that someone will rip you off.
I will tell you: At the same time, hundreds of people will say "Well, F*ck it", build a physical product, make a ton of money with it and eventually get ripped off. Let's assume they now have to start from zero (which I doubt in most cases):

• You will be at point zero because you never started.
• They will be at point zero with a ton of money and a buttload of experience.

Honestly, F*ck the people that will rip you off. You are here to make a ton of money, not to prevent them from making any.

 

[Leo Lex]

Now to address the "practical" issues. But first a real thanks for you'r help and comments. Sincerely.
The only solution to theft is either a bullet or jail time for the thief. I would like to that personally but unless the government does that that leads to anarchy. Anarchy is not good for anyone.

Remember, theft is indeed theft. And if someone is free to steal from you it is a matter of time until he takes all of it. I am quite young you see, at 21 years of age, and I am planning my life for the next 50 years. A lot can happen in 50 years and a small trend now can lead to a disaster in the future. And I don't want to find myself old and rather feeble having to face such a situation I can not get out of.

1) The product is a whole-cast item. Meaning other then conventional toilet parts the whole invention is in one device. Quite simple really.
2) I see what you mean, alas the tears I would shed knowing that my work is feeding the people I despise the most.
3) Sadly the moment you see the product you know what it is and can easily copy it. Again the invention is quite simple.
4) That would be ideal in the short term. Alas I do not like thinking short term. I am now young, and will hopefully live for a long time, and must plan for that.
Achieving things on the short term would leave a barren legacy behind me. The only way to keep relevant would be to reinvent the idea with a new twist every time the Chinese catch on. Which requires advertising and marketing, which are time consuming and easily prone to error.

So that is a good short term fix, i must agree. Alas I am looking to plan things for the long term instead.

Grandpa already has the prototype, I left it at my family's estate when I left home. He is mostly free of his affliction now, I am less though.