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KLaw

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I don't think I'm wrong to say that his product was a little weak in this area in particular. However, the "Commandments" are actually more like guidelines, and every buisiness is going to be more or less vulnerable in certain commandments than others. For example, developing a new kind of cruise missile is going to be very week in the N of CENTS (only a few dozen large buyers worldwide, very expensive, few units ordered), but incredibly strong in the E because you need a team of MIT-trained rocket scientists and a thousand miles of paperwork to break into the field. Ecom businesses are typically weak in entry, but they're still great ways to get rich.

However, the inexcusable thing that was done here is that the person took what was already a suboptimal barrier to entry that was inherent to producing an uncomplex commodity and removed basically all of the barrier by stealing the knowledge from Jason's mistakes without paying the price themselves. I can tell you, just in trying to make my youtube channel, I've made mistakes that set me back for months, and a few that cost me over $1,000. Those are my "dues" that I will have paid at the end. When you steal an idea and the execution for it, you're bypassing all those dues, which gives you an insane advantage. For example, another business I started that's supporting me right now, I could begin again from scratch today with only my knowledge of what I did last time and save probably $6,000 and 800-1000 hours of wasted effort. That's the real "crime" that occurred here, that knowledge is the fruit of success, and somebody made off with it without paying for it. They tried to "cheat the grind." I hope Jason smokes them. I don't have any use for his product in my own household but I have three friends that do and I pointed them to his website because I appreciate the insights about advertising he shared.
I appreciate your response. By no means am I condoning what happened to jason but... we talk all the time about copying a product and making their weaknesses better and then being better then them. Hey - i get he put himself and his marketing out there but again if his shit was so good then there shouldnt have been any issues. Likwid laid out his entire process, with specifics, from the beginning and it could be copied. But it hasn't. Why?
 

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Hey - i get he put himself and his marketing out there but again if his shit was so good then there shouldnt have been any issues.
What? No, that's not how it works at all. What he "put out there" was a cheat-code to go through the grind and escape completely unscathed, the power to take a process that took months and cost thousands or tens of thousands to perfect and launch it in weeks for hundreds. There is only one kind of business that could be completely immune to a competitor with an advantage like that, and that kind is:

Likwid laid out his entire process, with specifics, from the beginning and it could be copied. But it hasn't. Why?
One with legally enforceable IP. That's why nobody has copied him, because Likwid has a patent and a trademark. The same reason nobody writes Harvy Putter and the Wizzard's Stone by just changing the name of the main character and plagiarizing the rest and hopes to make a billion dollars on book sales, because they would be sued by JK Rowling immediately.

E-Com often doesn't have a proprietary methodology (and, if they're importing, maybe not even a product), so the process and marketing is really the entire secret sauce, and if devious people get their hands on it, the damage could be substantial. MJ outlined the damage that a copycat can do by driving up adword prices, diluting the market, casting aspersion on your brand if they offer substandard customer service, etc. in a thread on here. I'll try and find it or maybe someone else can chime in.
 

KLaw

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What? No, that's not how it works at all. What he "put out there" was a cheat-code to go through the grind and escape completely unscathed, the power to take a process that took months and cost thousands or tens of thousands to perfect and launch it in weeks for hundreds. There is only one kind of business that could be completely immune to a competitor with an advantage like that, and that kind is:



One with legally enforceable IP. That's why nobody has copied him, because Likwid has a patent and a trademark. The same reason nobody writes Harvy Putter and the Wizzard's Stone by just changing the name of the main character and plagiarizing the rest and hopes to make a billion dollars on book sales, because they would be sued by JK Rowling immediately.

E-Com often doesn't have a proprietary methodology (and, if they're importing, maybe not even a product), so the process and marketing is really the entire secret sauce, and if devious people get their hands on it, the damage could be substantial. MJ outlined the damage that a copycat can do by driving up adword prices, diluting the market, casting aspersion on your brand if they offer substandard customer service, etc. in a thread on here. I'll try and find it or maybe someone else can chime in.
But anyone could tweak likwids design and make a "workaround" to his patent. The secret sauce is not the marketing - IMO - but the actual product. Make a product that can easily be imported / manufactured - expect to be copied (including your marketing tactics). It doesnt matter that he posted his specific marketing gameplan. Anyone could figure that out with a little bit of research. His product was not unique. Therefore, it had very little barrier to entry. Therefore, it was / is too easy to copy. Know what i mean?
 

ExecutionisKing

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we talk all the time about copying a product and making their weaknesses better and then being better then them. Hey - i get he put himself and his marketing out there but again if his shit was so good then there shouldnt have been any issues. Likwid laid out his entire process, with specifics, from the beginning and it could be copied. But it hasn't. Why?
I disagree, poor comparison imo. Jason laid out a path detailing his process. He "removed" the barrier to entry by sharing his process, which was tons of dollars and months in creating, and was of tremendous value to others observing, not because of a step-by-step for that particular market/product, but because he let us in to his process as it developed.
He really showed how us (me, at least) how hard and creatively you need to drive to successfully execute an idea. Even after the ball is "rolling" at a quick pace; someone still has to steer.

For someone to "enter" the now "low barrier" market, someone had to steal all of his property (pics, names, copy, formatting, etc).
I believe he was going after the person for that.

Likwid's advantage is backing from the US government (an advantage, believe it or not, lol).
A patent and a trademark.
That's intell. property with enforcement to violators/trespassers. You can't just put in an extra word to the name (like the guy did to copy Jason's site) and sell "The Paint Brush Saver."

As an aside, I think Likwid's product will be copied, from what I remember reading on here about overseas manufacturers.
I though I read someone saying you had about 6-8 months of selling a proprietary product before you would be copied by a Chinese manufacturer.

That may only apply to non-patended inventions, I can't remember. The point is, he has legal proof of sole ownership of his design, and can shut down anyone who violates with a few quick legal moves.

Hopefully that wasn't too wordy...

Edit: whoops, he beat me to it, and sounded better doing it. Haha
 

KLaw

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I disagree, poor comparison imo. Jason laid out a path detailing his process. He "removed" the barrier to entry by sharing his process, which was tons of dollars and months in creating, and was of tremendous value to others observing, not because of a step-by-step for that particular market/product, but because he let us in to his process as it developed.
He really showed how us (me, at least) how hard and creatively you need to drive to successfully execute an idea. Even after the ball is "rolling" at a quick pace; someone still has to steer.

For someone to "enter" the now "low barrier" market, someone had to steal all of his property (pics, names, copy, formatting, etc).
I believe he was going after the person for that.

Likwid's advantage is backing from the US government (an advantage, believe it or not, lol).
A patent and a trademark.
That's intell. property with enforcement to violators/trespassers. You can't just put in an extra word to the name (like the guy did to copy Jason's site) and sell "The Paint Brush Saver."

As an aside, I think Likwid's product will be copied, from what I remember reading on here about overseas manufacturers.
I though I read someone saying you had about 6-8 months of selling a proprietary product before you would be copied by a Chinese manufacturer.

That may only apply to non-patended inventions, I can't remember. The point is, he has legal proof of sole ownership of his design, and can shut down anyone who violates with a few quick legal moves.

Hopefully that wasn't too wordy...
Dont get me wrong. Im not justifying any of this shit. Just playing devil's advocate.
 

ExecutionisKing

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But anyone could tweak likwids design and make a "workaround" to his patent. The secret sauce is not the marketing - IMO - but the actual product. Make a product that can easily be imported / manufactured - expect to be copied (including your marketing tactics). It doesnt matter that he posted his specific marketing gameplan. Anyone could figure that out with a little bit of research. His product was not unique. Therefore, it had very little barrier to entry. Therefore, it was / is too easy to copy. Know what i mean?
Going to have to disagree again, on both counts, sorry...;)

You underestimate the value of a patent. You can't just "tweak" it to sell for yourself....
That's what patent lawyers are for....

Besides, the amazing thing about Likwid's design is that no one had a patent. I still find it astonishing that there was no product out there; I don't paint, so I'd never explored the market.

But how do you tweak a paint brush cover, to still hold a paint brush, but not act as a cover??? You'd need some kind of virtual non-physical cover, and that wouldn't actually be a cover....

And the Marketing/research is a huge deal. 1 small piece- Why don't you start a thread on SEO vs PPC vs banner ads and see how long that goes (well, Zen's given the scoop on that, so hopefully not long, but you know what I mean..)

If anyone could figure it out with a "little research," you insult the creator, whom it took thousands of dollars and months to "figure out," and he was STILL encountering new challenges.
His product was unique (or do you known of one that already existed on the level he is?).

But anyone can make a "unique" product if they're given the step-by-step...
I think Jason, in his zeal (which I was enthused by), let his guard down too much and showed some of his cards, taught people how to calculate the probability of a winning hand, how to read the other players... Etc.

He said it well:
E-Com often doesn't have a proprietary methodology (and, if they're importing, maybe not even a product), so the process and marketing is really the entire secret sauce, and if devious people get their hands on it, the damage could be substantial. MJ outlined the damage that a copycat can do by driving up adword prices, diluting the market, casting aspersion on your brand if they offer substandard customer service, etc. in a thread on here. I'll try and find it or maybe someone else can chime in.
 

KLaw

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Going to have to disagree again, on both counts, sorry...;)

You underestimate the value of a patent. You can't just "tweak" it to sell for yourself....
That's what patent lawyers are for....

Besides, the amazing thing about Likwid's design is that no one had a patent. I still find it astonishing that there was no product out there; I don't paint, so I'd never explored the market.

But how do you tweak a paint brush cover, to still hold a paint brush, but not act as a cover??? You'd need some kind of virtual non-physical cover, and that wouldn't actually be a cover....

And the Marketing/research is a huge deal. 1 small piece- Why don't you start a thread on SEO vs PPC vs banner ads and see how long that goes (well, Zen's given the scoop on that, so hopefully not long, but you know what I mean..)

If anyone could figure it out with a "little research," you insult the creator, whom it took thousands of dollars and months to "figure out," and he was STILL encountering new challenges.
His product was unique (or do you known of one that already existed on the level he is?).

But anyone can make a "unique" product if they're given the step-by-step...
I think Jason, in his zeal (which I was enthused by), let his guard down too much and showed some of his cards, taught people how to calculate the probability of a winning hand, how to read the other players... Etc.

He said it well:
"You underestimate the value of a patent. You can't just "tweak" it to sell for yourself."

Simple - just change the material and point of entry and the hinges. Done. It really is that simple (to bypass the patent). Execution - is a different story. As far as jason's marketing goes - well he did provide a step by step but it's nothing that one couldn't learn from other resources.
 

Mike Kavanagh

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"You underestimate the value of a patent. You can't just "tweak" it to sell for yourself."

Simple - just change the material and point of entry and the hinges. Done. It really is that simple (to bypass the patent). Execution - is a different story. As far as jason's marketing goes - well he did provide a step by step but it's nothing that one couldn't learn from other resources.
Why argue morality?
Sal has IP.
Jason has a product.
How is stealing either one's entire strategy any different, legally backed or otherwise.

Main point is don't do it.
Ever read Atlas Shrugged? I recommend it.
It's about the all capitalists and PWGSD(People who get shit done) leaving when everyone took them for granted.
Amongst other themes of the book of course.

That is what happens when people take everything for their own. People leave.
 

Vagabond 007

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I was wondering where Jason was. Now I know.

Sorry to read about his troubles with others blatantly stealing from his generosity.

It's amazing how many leeches are in this world. Even worse, leeches who take from the givers.
 

the5thpgriff

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I specifically asked names to be omitted in this thread, but here's the story.

The other guy (also named Jason) was an ex-partner. We split, and did our own things. I had no clue he was going to use such a similar name as mine, which I thought was idiotic. If you check the domain registration dates, you'll see he registered maybe a day or two after me. I am on good terms with him, which is why I haven't enforced my trademark (I try not to create enemies if I don't have to). And like I said, I was talking to him about buying his business.

The other guy who stole my business, is a member of this forum, unfortunately, and was also on my insider's call.

I guess it was a bit idiotic of me to do the call so openly, although it was a great experience, and Billy and I get along great.

Here's the thing, no one knows the secret sauce, the marketing, the amount of money I've lost on advertising tests, or how profitable this really is (or isn't).

Everything that makes my business work is behind the scenes, which I will never tell.

The good thing is, I'm so far ahead of everyone else, they're just playing catch up.

To all the copycats F*ck you, and good luck.

I'm honestly a bit tired of trying to help me out. Just get burned in the end.
Damn man... I'm just starting to catch up on this thread. Been taking care of my father and ultimately dealing with his passing over the last 2 months and put everything on hold.
This was the first thread I fully read when I joined the forum a few months ago. So much info shared by Jason and somebody can't just use the info given and apply it to their own venture instead of stealing his idea?!? Ridiculous! Thanks Jason for all you gave... I don't blame you for keeping your mouth shut at this point!! Much success.
 

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evlttwin

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Awesome story. Too bad there is no real way to filter the idea stealing douchbags out of this place. Would love to hear how things are going. The website looks great! Thanks for all your time and info Jason. Much appreciated.
 
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Awesome story. Too bad there is no real way to filter the idea stealing douchbags out of this place. Would love to hear how things are going. The website looks great! Thanks for all your time and info Jason. Much appreciated.
Things are going well. Constantly pivoting and changing, because you have to. :)

I won't be updating this thread with my business info or anything of the sort, because of obviousl copycats. My fault, my bad - I won't ever disclose what I'm making again (bonehead) lol

I did order from my copycat, and never received my stuff.

Whatever, it happens, it's business.

I do know, that whatever I do, I won't NEED a job any more.

My life has changed, and I see opportunity EVERYWHERE.

Even if I shut down my business today, I wouldn't need a job.

ForeverJobless as @snowbank says. :)
 
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csalvato

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Things are going well. Constantly pivoting and changing, because you have to. :)
Can you define pivot in this context? To me, a pivot is a radical changing of a business in response to market demands.

For example, Justin.tv switching from general web-streaming to Twitch.tv specifically for gaming.

Another example, Lift.Do switching from general habit coaching to Coach.Me which is guided coaching.

When looking at hyper-successful companies, they only make a major pivot once, if ever.

Do you really feel like you need to constantly pivot? Or are you defining pivot differently?
 
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Can you define pivot in this context? To me, a pivot is a radical changing of a business in response to market demands.

For example, Justin.tv switching from general web-streaming to Twitch.tv specifically for gaming.

Another example, Lift.Do switching from general habit coaching to Coach.Me which is guided coaching.

When looking at hyper-successful companies, they only make a major pivot once, if ever.
I'm not going to give you a specific example here - however:

Read Ready, Fire, Aim - one of the best business books out there and an excellent read after MJ's book, IMO.

It explains why EVERY business should always be innovating and pivoting.
 

Iwokeup

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I'm not going to give you a specific example here - however:

Read Ready, Fire, Aim - one of the best business books out there and an excellent read after MJ's book, IMO.

It explains why EVERY business should always be innovating and pivoting.
I love this book. Wanted to give a shout out to @Kak for recommending this one and "Thick Face, Black Heart" in one of the book threads.

Glad to see that your experience has only made you stronger. Best of success Jason!
 

csalvato

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I'm not going to give you a specific example here - however:
To be clear, I didn't want a specific example of how you pivoted in your business.

I know that level of info isn't something you want to share here anymore. :)

I was looking for something more high level - like changing branding, changing cost structure, radically changing the product, etc.

Added the book to my book list. :D
 
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A good example is that EVERY product has a cycle. Whether it's an ebook or an iPhone - they're only usually effective for so long.

There are some exceptions of course - B2B services, big vertical products (although they have their own cycles).

Take diet for example. Diet is one of the biggest markets out there, and look at the "craze" after "craze" hits. You may be selling a diet pill, but if you go BIG with it (ex. market the hell out of it, etc.) - hit 6-7 figures with a single product in sales, you're going to see a dip as the product becomes exhausted. You either have to find a NEW market or sales channel, or tweak/re-invent the product.

Why do you think Apple comes out with a new iPhone/iPod/Ipad etc. every year? Apple is a master at the product cycle.

Also, if you can sell one unique/innovative front end product, you can sell the same products (in the same vertical) to those customers.

Your lead product will get you a customer (relatively easy), and you can make a TON of profit from the back end with the the same products everyone else is selling.

Make sense?
 
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csalvato

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A good example is that EVERY product has a cycle. Whether it's an ebook or an iPhone - they're only usually effective for so long.

There are some exceptions of course - B2B services, big vertical products (although they have their own cycles).

Take diet for example. Diet is one of the biggest markets out there, and look out "crazy" after "craze" hits. You may be selling a diet pill, but if you go BIG with it (ex. market the hell out of it, etc.) - hit 6-7 figures with a single product in sales, you're going to see a dip as the product becomes exhausted. You either have to find a NEW market or sales channel, or tweak/re-invent the product.

Why do you think Apple comes out with a new iPhone/iPod/Ipad etc. every year? Apple is a master at the product cycle.

Also, if you can sell one unique/innovative front end product, you can sell the same products (in the same vertical) to those customers.

Your lead product will get you a customer (relatively easy), and you can make a TON of profit from the back end with the the same products everyone else is selling.

Make sense?
That's what I thought you meant, but the word "pivot" threw me for a loop. Thanks man.
 

alfonso

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Awesome, man I'm just getting my feet wet in this entrepreneur world, and feel like i wasted too much time. I mean ive attempted business on my own where the more time i personally worked the more i made. But my field also meant the more time i spent the more my body hurt and the more i became depressed about it. Listening and reading these post, along with reading tmf is helping me learn a lot. Now im in my phase of just going ahead and start something fail and try again. Thanks form your post bud.
 

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Vagabond 007

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I love this book. Wanted to give a shout out to @Kak for recommending this one and "Thick Face, Black Heart" in one of the book threads.

Glad to see that your experience has only made you stronger. Best of success Jason!
I back this up, I read Thick Face Black Heart years ago and it is one of my favorites...and I've read a lot.

Ready, Fire, Aim (as Jason mentioned) is another great one. These 2 books are a must read for anyone who is serious about kicking a$$.
 

BeGreat

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I just finished page 7 of this thread and will finish it all asap. Very glad to see it is still active and going strong.

I learned more in this thread already than I could have in any book. Pretty amazing knowledge being dropped.

I'm just getting started and now I'll be heading in a right direction.

Thanks @JasonR and everyone else contributing.
 

randomnumber314

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Geez....just finished reading this thread. So sorry this happened @JasonR . Glad things are better now.

Now I'm afraid to post a progress thread :(
Don't be afraid! Just provide only the necessary details. No one needs to know what your product is, just give enough information that serious people can get value from it.
 

The-J

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Geez....just finished reading this thread. So sorry this happened @JasonR . Glad things are better now.

Now I'm afraid to post a progress thread :(
Don't be afraid to post a progress thread. You don't have to (and probably shouldn't) reveal a niche, but you want to express the process.
 

Growth & Learn

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Yeah
Geez....just finished reading this thread. So sorry this happened @JasonR . Glad things are better now.

Now I'm afraid to post a progress thread :(
Yeah I was actually going to post a progress thread (1 year to doubling revenues) but I don't think I want to now. :(

I don't think anybody knows me but sheesh..why take the risk.
 

ClaytonAlbright

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Oh, you like to Snowboard, so you're going to build a snowboard e-commerce business. Your passion is NOT reason to go into business. I lost 8 months and made 0 sales attempting following my "passion" when deep down I didn't how how to add value in this particular market.
But telling people to start a business based on their passion IS what sells (many times). I can usually spot the bad apples fairly easily now after discovering TMF.
 

ClaytonAlbright

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Yeah you're right but there's always a way to make your passion a business and if you succeed you will be really happy and it will be easier to stay motivated to work and you will attract wealth because people will feel that you love and are passion about what you're doing. I'm an entrepreneur there's no doubt about it but never again ill just sell anything just for selling. helping people start with a passion...
Building a business based on your passion can also ruin it. It may end up being more like work while doing it because of all the pitfalls that a business can bring to it. So you start with enjoying it and end up hating it.

I think the best way to be able to bring what your passionate about into a business platform is that if you see a need that is unfilled, or something that can be changed to produce a much better experience than what already exists in the market. So don't just do it because your passionate about it, but if the knowledge you have from it gives you insight into that particular area that you see has a need that's not being fulfilled.
 

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