Imminent Threat Survival

[Lex DeVille]

Here's an interesting video from an officer in Orlando.

Their department no longer suggests, "Run - Hide - Fight" approach.

They've revised their suggestion to, "Awareness - Avoid - Arm - Attack" (The four a's of survival)

Always be aware of your surroundings.
Avoid the threat if possible.
Arm yourself with anything that can be used to defend.
Attack if there is no other option for survival.

 

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[Deri]

Place must have been full of booze > Someone must have had a lighter > Molotov cocktail.

Just a thought.

I don't think a molotov cocktail would be a good idea in this instance as a fire would probably add to the problem if it went wrong.

 

[Okraz1]

If someone has a weapon the best chance of survival IMO is to run or comply with what they want. If you know you are a sitting duck however and can't escape then you may as well attack instead of hiding.

Lots of people are delusional about their abilities to beat an armed attacker.

A lot of the things suggested in this thread will get you filled with bullet holes or stab wounds in a real situation, sorry to be a party pooper

 

[Lex DeVille]

A lot of the things suggested in this thread will get you filled with bullet holes or stab wounds in a real situation, sorry to be a party pooper

There's a problem with this statement. It's the word will which implies certainty. Unfortunately mass shooting incidents aren't certain by any means. Death isn't certain. Life isn't certain. What will/won't work isn't certain.

The only thing close to certainty is that lack of action gets people killed. Beyond that, anything might work. Hiding is no longer suggested by Orlando police, but it might work. The context of the situation is everything.

Beyond that it's a personal decision made in the moment. Do or die. Any speculation about what will work or won't work is just that, until an incident happens.

It's not a matter of being delusional about one's ability to beat an armed assailant. It's about mindset. Much better to have an aggressive mindset and be ready to kill or be killed than to take the mindset of a victim and just be killed.

Complying with what the shooter wants means certain death. This thread was a response to the Orlando mass shooting incident. Victims were chosen at random to die. You can do that if you want. My goal would be attempting to escape by any means.

Likewise there may be incidents in which running could get you killed. This is why the new video suggests avoidance (evading) because it means staying out of the line of fire as best you can and continuing to attempt to escape.

Always the goal is to escape. Always the goal is to survive. Whatever works, works. If you haven't been in a mass shooter incident, there's no guarantee what you'll do. There are things the numbers show give people a better chance to survive. Usually it involves a non-victim mindset. Sometimes it involves fighting.

 

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[GSF]

If someone has a weapon the best chance of survival IMO is to run or comply with what they want. If you know you are a sitting duck however and can't escape then you may as well attack instead of hiding.

Lots of people are delusional about their abilities to beat an armed attacker.

A lot of the things suggested in this thread will get you filled with bullet holes or stab wounds in a real situation, sorry to be a party pooper

I agree the best thing you can do, if you are able to, is to run away. However if you find yourself trapped with nowhere to run, it's been proven in recent attacks that submitting to an active shooter or trying to plead has a worse outcome than attacking.

About 15 years ago I was involved in a gun attack (nothing like recent events no one was killed or critically injured), later on When I have time I might post about it and how I reacted

 

[Okraz1]

There's a problem with this statement. It's the word will which implies certainty. Unfortunately mass shooting incidents aren't certain by any means. Death isn't certain. Life isn't certain. What will/won't work isn't certain.

The only thing close to certainty is that lack of action gets people killed. Beyond that, anything might work. Hiding is no longer suggested by Orlando police, but it might work. The context of the situation is everything.

Beyond that it's a personal decision made in the moment. Do or die. Any speculation about what will work or won't work is just that, until an incident happens.

It's not a matter of being delusional about one's ability to beat an armed assailant. It's about mindset. Much better to have an aggressive mindset and be ready to kill or be killed than to take the mindset of a victim and just be killed.

Complying with what the shooter wants means certain death. This thread was a response to the Orlando mass shooting incident. Victims were chosen at random to die. You can do that if you want. My goal would be attempting to escape by any means.

Likewise there may be incidents in which running could get you killed. This is why the new video suggests avoidance (evading) because it means staying out of the line of fire as best you can and continuing to attempt to escape.

Always the goal is to escape. Always the goal is to survive. Whatever works, works. If you haven't been in a mass shooter incident, there's no guarantee what you'll do. There are things the numbers show give people a better chance to survive. Usually it involves a non-victim mindset. Sometimes it involves fighting.

I agree with everything you said, it varies greatly depending on situation and is better to go ape instead of submitting.

By complying with the attacker I meant in the case where the attackers sole motive isn't to kill you such as a robbery. Better just to hand your wallet over instead of doing something that can get you killed. I should've specified

 

[Andy Black]

It's all good.

IMO this is too important a topic to not speak up if you have something to say.

I'm no self defence expert, but I think we should all be aware of how our mobile can be a weapon, so I spoke up.

If it saves just one person...



There's scumbags out there. I'd rather avoid them, but if push comes to shove, I want to have done my thinking now, so I keep my head.

 

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[Shades]

Its so hard to know what that situation would be like before it happens.

But I think a lot of times people think in their heads that these people are like tanks. Not true. Remember that the human body is very vulnerable and fairly easily injured. And the overwhelming odds are that these types of attackers have zero skill in defending themselves without a gun. These people may be more easily disarmed then you may think if you can get within a close enough range. They have to reload at some point.

It sounds from Orlando that this guy was just walking around using the sink etc... its just that everyone was in too much shock or fear to take their chance. A blow to the head with many variety of objects will at very least temporarily disorient most people. Allowing enough time to control a weapon. Go for the eyes and neck. Bite and strike their adams apple area. Put your fingers through their eyeballs. Who knows you may have the opportunity to sink in a choke from behind. People pass out from a choke like that quicker then you may think.

As others have said here, these people will not expect any resistance.

 

[Runum]

Here's another thought from the video....

Turn off the ringer to your phone if you want to be hidden.

 

[Shades]

Here's another thought from the video....

Turn off the ringer to your phone if you want to be hidden.

I cant imagine a situation where id find myself hiding in a stall with 20 other people. I mean, that seems like just about the worst thing you could do. Right there is enough people to easily overpower a lone gunman. The problem is a few will get shot and nobody wants it to be them.

Just so sad to see that this guy was in there for 3 hours texting, washing his hands and weapons, reloading, making phone calls and nobody did anything. It sounds bad, but its seems like it could have easily been more then 50 deaths that night.

 

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[LifeTransformer]

I don't think a molotov cocktail would be a good idea in this instance as a fire would probably add to the problem if it went wrong.

You could very well be right there! If it went right, you might render the shooter dazed, confused or useless, and then have a fire to deal with instead.

Anyway, I've just been reading some of "A Guide To The Good Life", this thread is a good example of negative visualisation.

 

[Deri]

I have a lot of experience in self defence training etc and have worked on pub doors even though my stature is small.
Looking for trouble areas is a habit that will not leave me I do not think.
Have never had to deal with anyone brandishing a firearm though have often thought about it. My conclusion would be, unless I have a gun too, just get as far away as possible! If there was no option the old adage of distract, engage and egect would come in to play.
But then a psychopath with a gun is really unpredictable.
It really is a crazy world we live in!

 

[Bamcis]

I'd like to add some additional information I've gathered throughout my time in the Marine Corps grunts and as a security officer at a couple sensitive locations.

As I'm sure everyone is aware, MINDSET is key. Most the posts have talked about situational awareness, weaponry, and gut instinct, but mindset in this field is more than just those things. I would like to reflect on one of the most influential concepts I was introduced to called Cooper's Color Code.

For those unfamiliar, Cooper's Color Code was introduced by Jeff Cooper. Quick history lesson, Cooper was a US Marine Officer during WW2 and Korea. His Code is broken down into four color codes symbolizing different combat mindsets. Simply, they are:

• WHITE: You are unprepared and unready to take lethal action. If you are attacked while in the white, you will probably die unless your adversary is completely inept.
• YELLOW: You bring yourself to the understanding that your life may be in danger and you may have to do something to protect it.
• ORANGE: You have determined upon a specific adversary and are prepared to take action. With the understanding that this may result in their death.
• RED: You are in your most lethal and prepared mode, and will protect yourself if circumstances warrant.

The Marine Corps offered a fifth color to Cooper's spectrum, which is:

• BLACK: You have a catastrophic breakdown of mental and/or physical capabilities. This can be caused by drugs/alcohol or overwhelming stress.

Again, these are simplified definitions of Cooper's Color Code. As a veteran and as security personnel, I try my hardest to stay in the Yellow when I am out. I'm not sure how many are willing to admit it, but staying on your guard at all times can be very mentally draining. This is definitely something to keep in mind if you are new to this type of mindset/lifestyle. Jeff Cooper has quite a selection of writings and concepts I encourage everyone to take a look at. WHICH COLOR WILL YOU BE IN???

Whether it be at the mall, club, or school, it is important to have a PLAN. Whenever I go anywhere with my wife or family, at the very least I come up with a plan to meet if we become separated and can't communicate. We have even gone further that we have a few code words/passwords for different situations. This is a bit of pre-planning for the unexpected, but coming up with a plan when shit hits the fan is just as important. I suppose I can offer my proposal for the bathroom scenario...

In a bathroom unarmed, we need to ask two questions and answer them quickly. What are our options, and what is our plan? Do we hide in the bathroom (aka "shelter in place")? If we decide to take shelter in the bathroom what is the plan for that? Kill the lights and hide in the stalls? Barricade the door? Jump anyone who comes in? If we decide to run, which exit should we go for? Do we take it slow and sneaky or haul a$$? The point is come up with a PLAN and as the saying goes, "any action is better than no action".

It is essentially impossible to answer the bathroom question because there are so many variables. The situation will dictate your actions. This is something to remember because you can't have the same plan every time. You must be able to ADAPT.

This one is getting pretty long, I will continue in another reply.

 

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[Bamcis]

Continuing...

A few people have talked about "weapons of opportunity". These aren't just weapons usable for attacking, these are weapons used for any opportunity to escape or distract as well. I say this with the OODA Loop in mind. Vigilante had a great post describing the OODA Loop and I recommend everyone takes a moment to read it.

Quickly, it's: OBSERVE, ORIENT, DECIDE, ACT (then loop it)

Back to the weapons. Almost ANYTHING can be used as a weapon (again, either for attacking OR distraction). In Vigilante's OODA Loop Thread it seemed the message was more of applying it to yourself. Here, I would like to present the idea of DISRUPTING THE ATTACKERS OODA-LOOP.

Imagine, a masked gunman walks into a room, he has OBSERVED the room when he opened the door and ORIENTS himself in a seconds. He DECIDES to shoot everyone, and then he ACTS.

Now again imagine, a masked gunman walks into a room, he has OBSERVED the room when he opened the door and ORIEN---*BAM* someone throws their cellphone at the gunman. *OODA-LOOP-DISRUPTED* Now the gunman needs to start over (still happening within seconds) and begins to OBSERVES the person who throws the cellphone, begins to ORIENT--*BAM* someone slides a chair from across the room at the gunman and everyone starts shouting at the same time. *OODA-LOOP-DISRUPTED* This has bought enough time for the innocent people to carry-out their plan of either dog-piling, running, or whatever. Gunman down.

The point being here that the smartphone or chair or shouting was enough of a weapon to provide an opportunity to act. In one of our security trainings the instructor asked a elementary school teacher what his plan of protection was for his 6th grade students. The teacher went on to say he had a stash of canned foods and he would throw them at the assailant. It is almost instinctive to duck when someone throws a can of beans at you with some speed. Beating a dead horse here, but by disrupting the attackers OODA LOOP that plan can be effective.

I suppose I will wrap this up with just a few sayings I've picked up throughout the years...

"Be kind and courteous to everyone you meet, but have a plan to kill them"
"Complacency kills"
"There's no second place in combat, so if you're not cheating, you're not trying"
"Use your head, but trust your gut"

BAMCIS

 

[AndrewNC]

A new type of threat....



Yesterday I was with my friend Ellie and a cool hippie girl I met 14,000 feet at the peak of the tallest peaks of Rocky Mountain National Park.

1. Intoxicating Substances

I was flirting with the girl I just met, and laid with her for half an hour, talking about eachother's lives, while drinking some beers. Overlooking all of the breathtaking scenery below. Mountains, lakes, beautiful scenery.

We are about 14,000 feet up (top of the mountain I'm looking into, in the distance there). And the altittude + alcohol made us feel it QUICKLY.

We had to climb down vertical, slippery waterfalls, down ice shelves at the top of the glaciers, and we were not in a clear state of mind.

Soberness = clarity. What I did = dangerous.

With that being said, this was an amazing experience, and I would do it all over again, exactly as it unfolded.

2. Situational Awareness

As we were hiking down, my friend is in the air force, and she had a big hunting knife on the front strap of her backpack. It was just before dusk, and prime hunting season for the predictors of the wilderness. Bears, moose, and mountain lions.

Ellie's eyes were gazing back and forth, keeping good situational awareness of any predictors that may be willing to strike.

Katie and I were dragging behind, flirting and having fun, not paying attention to anything that was going on around us.

Dangerous decision.

I would do it again in a heartbeat.

Hindsight is always 20/20

3. Preparedness & Refusing to be a victim

I brainstormed in my mind what would happen if an animal does attack.

Small pocket knife in my pocket, and then I could always pick up large rocks to defend ourselves if something happens. 3 vs 1. We would stand a chance.

Knowledge is power. My friend was in control and on the lookout. But in the event something does happen, fight of flight would kick in.

Instead of standing there and being a victim, I would at least die fighting...



At one moment, we were face to face with a mother moose...slowly backing away...knives in hand....sweet Katie hiding behind the wall of the two of us, ready to make sure we would make it home alive.

The mother moose looks up at us with her eyes, and we begin to back away a little faster.

..but that's for another story.

Fun day..

 

[nradam123]

Emergency by Neil Strauss might have some ideas from survivalists.

But this was so unexpected. Its a nightclub so you are already in an environment with loud noise. Unless someone is trained in combat he wont even know what to do. You dont even know how many people are attacking. This is a hard situation

Throwing projectiles, using doors as battering ram .etc sounds like brave thing to do. But out of 100 people trapped if 1 person starts becoming the leader and throw projectiles I am pretty sure that the attacker will shoot him first. Being a leader = Being at more risk. Thats why most people think about escaping and not confronting.

Get rid of guns if its possible. Like all other countries. 99% of these problems will be solved.

Or maybe
Just maybe ..

A startup should make a product like this -
1) A device that comes attached with all guns, integrated to it and unbreakable.
2) If someone comes to an area with guns and starts shooting any civilian can go ahead and press a button in his smartphone saying "Under Attack"
3) The information will go to a control room. The control room will verify that its an attack and not a false information.
4) Once verified the control room will activate "Gun Disable Mode" and all guns near the area of attack will be disabled (Except guns of police, swat .etc)
5) Once the gun is disabled, anyone can go to the attacker and kick his butt or tear his head off like mountain from Game of Thrones.

Someone make this. Quick.
This is the fastlaneforum bros.

 

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[Ninjakid]

A lot of the things suggested in this thread will get you filled with bullet holes or stab wounds in a real situation, sorry to be a party pooper

Okay let me state something plain and simple:

If someone has a gun or a knife aimed at you, you are already in danger getting filled with bullet holes or stab wounds.

Just about everyone's instinct is to either comply or run away, yet we still hear of incidents of people getting murdered because they couldn't defend themselves.

I do agree with you that the best way to survive a dangerous situation is to get yourself away at all costs, and that's what a person will usually instinctively do rather than try to fight someone with a gun. However, not everyone is given that option in every life or death situation

 

[Bamcis]

A startup should make a product like this -
1) A device that comes attached with all guns, integrated to it and unbreakable.
2) If someone comes to an area with guns and starts shooting any civilian can go ahead and press a button in his smartphone saying "Under Attack"
3) The information will go to a control room. The control room will verify that its an attack and not a false information.
4) Once verified the control room will activate "Gun Disable Mode" and all guns near the area of attack will be disabled (Except guns of police, swat .etc)
5) Once the gun is disabled, anyone can go to the attacker and kick his butt or tear his head off like mountain from Game of Thrones.

I think the argument is more about how to actually deal with the imminent threat. This does nothing more than give the potential victim a false sense of security. The time it would take for a person to activate the "under attack" toggle and for the control room to verify the attack, would take too long. Additionally, a gunman who intends on shooting up a place is most likely going to have a weapon that he can do it with (as in having a weapon without this suggested feature).

 

[ChickenHawk]

Get rid of guns if its possible. Like all other countries. 99% of these problems will be solved.

France has some of the strictest gun-control laws in the world. And yet, 100-plus people were gun downed at a concert not too long ago. Unfortunately, criminals and terrorists are quite stubborn when it comes to giving up their guns.

A startup should make a product like this -
1) A device that comes attached with all guns, integrated to it and unbreakable.

And when this device is hacked, what happens to police officers or women defending their children from psychos? They become sitting ducks.

I realize that I'm veering dangerously close to political speak here, so I'll just make a plea to keep this thread on-topic. Amending the U.S. Constitution, or finding ways to violate rights guaranteed by it, does little to further what has been, until now, a really productive discussion.

 

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[jon.a]

Get rid of guns if its possible. Like all other countries. 99% of these problems will be solved.

We don't have a gun problem, we have a mental health problem.
And, they're a protected class.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Get rid of guns if its possible. Like all other countries. 99% of these problems will be solved.

The fastest way to stop a bad guy with a gun is always good guys with guns.

"Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state."
- Thomas Jefferson

@Runum
As a teacher, have you ever thought about carrying an armor-plate with you in your laptop-bag?

 

[Runum]

@Runum
As a teacher, have you ever thought about carrying an armor-plate with you in your laptop-bag?

I am taking notes about all of this, lots of good ideas. However, I really can't comment on the topic in relation to my job in an open google indexed forum. All options are being considered that fall in line with the district and school policies and procedures.

Keep the ideas coming guys good stuff.

Tread lightly on the gun control stuff, we don't need to get into that argument on this forum, plenty of it already on Facebook.

 

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[jon.a]

This is spot on!

https://www.facebook.com/IsThisFreeDumb/videos/508741059157993/

Sorry, I suck at embedding.

 

[Shades]

I think AZ has some of the most open gun laws in the country. It doesnt seem like we see a vast amount of these random massacres there. Wonder if it has to do with people being able to easily open and conceal carry a weapon. I wonder if these crazies realize that and instead like to target these gun free zones. WTF does that even mean? Gun free zone for who? Normal people who would never shoot mass amounts of people in the first place?

Luckily we live in a country that has gun rights. Its just you dont really see the news covering the many crimes that were stopped by someone conceal carrying a weapon they are trained in using. Or someone who protected their family with a gun they kept in the house.

And I dont believe it makes sense to really compare many of these other countries to us. Not just with gun issues but with damn near every issue. Many of these countries are barely bigger then some of our cities let alone larger states. Its just not the same.

 

[Runum]

Again, this thread is for discussing strategies and tactics to aid in survival other than gun control issues.

This is not a thread to discuss the merits or demerits of gun rights/control. Please do not post if you want to bring up guns.

 

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[Durete]

I know that this is quite an old threat, and I'm sad that I couldn't mix in it while it was actively going on.

That being said as someone that is fairly knowledgeable in the self-defense scene here are my " 2 cents"
I will talk more about the psychological part than the physical part. as the physical part is just an extension of the psychological.

1) First of your mental strength is the most important thing.
You must be willing to die in order to survive.

This is an old wisdom that can even be traced back to old scriptures like the Bible. in times where combat was a normal-every-day thing.

If you care to much about surviving you will think, you think, you hesitate, you hesitate, you waste time, you waste time, you die.

2) Learn from the special forces. My favorite group and mindset is that of the SAS (Special Air Service- the special forces from the UK.)
They get taught this:

Speed
Aggression
Surprise

In short, whatever you do, be quick, surprise the attacker and be aggressive.

It's fairly easy to get the speed and surprise in, however most people just don't have what it takes to be aggressive.

Ask yourself: Am I able to kill someone without a second thought?
Will I be able to push someone's eyes out? Do I have what it takes to throw myself at an armed person?

If the answer is no to any of them... you're dead already.


3) Control your mind

Most people will go into a state of panic or a shock at simple and small things.
Getting attacked by a person with a weapon is not a small thing. most people will go into a shock or state of panic.
The moment you lose control of your mind is the moment you die.

Therefore control your mind.
How do you control your mind?
By controlling your breathing.

Slowly in through the nose, long breaths out through the mouth.

If you're in a complete state of panic learn to do the box-breathing (4-4-4-4) or a breathing pattern to lower your blood pressure/heart rate such as the (2-8-4-0) patterns.

The numbers mean: (Breath in- Hold- Breath out - hold)

4) Take leadership.

There is strength in numbers, and the numbers are the other people around you.

If you want them to be of any use, rather than a risk, you will have to take leadership.

How do you take leadership? Be strong, instruct clearly with explanation, lead by example.

Hardest thing here: Do not be aggressive towards other victims. They are most likely in shock or panic and will respond badly towards more aggression.

Instead of being dominating, be a real leader. be firm but be respectful, understanding and show that you care for them.

Use their own incentives to make them useful. (You have children right? Do you want to see them again? Now in order for you to see your children again you'll need to do this and we can all go home today.)

5) As for the actual defense/ attack:

Be creative, use your environment, use the people(but don't depend on them- you cannot control them, so you cannot depend on them after all) be fast, come as a surprise and be aggressive.

With surprise you can also cause confusion, for example by surrounding the person (In your situation this could be by placing people on each side of the door, in the toilet area's, and then come out and attack all at the same time after the aggressor took a step inside the area. possibly lured in by someone making noise while being out of sight for the aggressor.)

 

[GMSI7D]

France has some of the strictest gun-control laws in the world. .

in fact, France is second

the first is germany, where people can't have real gun at all

so they have to use their mind to create gun-like tools

watch ALL the videos of this german genius who is followed by more than 1, 000, 000 people because of his imagination

this is incredible, i promise you have never, ever , watched these things

ever


https://www.youtube.com/user/JoergSprave/videos

 

[Guest3722A]

Active shooter reported at Ohio State University right now! http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/28/us/ohio-state-university-active-shooter/

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Active shooter reported at Ohio State University right now! http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/28/us/ohio-state-university-active-shooter/

Oh boy, I saw this thread pop-up and immediately thought an incident was ongoing. Darn.

Hope there are no casualties.

 

[G-Man]

This thing today reminds me of the UVA incident. You would think that a college campus, being full of 19/20 yr old men would be the most dangerous place on earth to try and pull something like this - as opposed to Newtown or an old folks home. What the thread seems to be ignoring in talking about what the group in the restroom should do is this situation becomes a prisoner's dilemma. Nobody wants to risk getting it, so everybody gets it.

First step is learning to think of yourself as the only guy in the corner. Nothing's gonna happen if you don't do it. It's essentially like both the fastlane and rest of life.

EDIT: I'm not entirely sure I should be pontificating on what people getting shot at "should" do, given I've never been shot at. I was present during a shooting once, and I couldn't GTFO fast enough. I got in my car and drove it out of a car wash still soapy.