Imminent Threat Survival

[Runum]

Can we talk strategy without politics or religion?

Given the events in France, Orlando, and elsewhere...

And @Vigilante podcast about the OODA loop....

If you were at a public event and were trapped with no escape what would be some strategies for survival?

I was thinking about the people in the restroom, trapped in a room with no escape. They had to know this guy would be coming. Is there time to organize a counter offensive? He thinks he has total control by fear. You and your peeps in the bathroom have the advantage of numbers and element of surprise.

You have been drinking and now running on full adrenaline, sweating and scared.

Thinking about resources available and the imminent threat, some ideas came to mind.

1) The toilet seats could be removed and used as a weapon

2)the stall doors could be used as a shield or ram

3)Your belts could be tied together to make a trip.

You know where he will enter and you have a good idea about his posture. You know if he enters and controls the room you most likely will not survive.

Any other situational ideas are welcome.

Are there any legal, strategic weapons that one could carry into a bar or concert?

Again, I don't want to devolve into rights, gun control, politics, or religion. Please keep responses to strategy and strategic information.

 

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[LifeTransformer]

Place must have been full of booze > Someone must have had a lighter > Molotov cocktail.

Just a thought.

 

[Empires]

Looking at recent and past situations with less casualties, control is taken away from the attacker quickly.

As soon as panic ensues, the attacker is at a major advantage. For example, the Christina Grimmie shooting, right after he attacked her brother tackled him. Preventing more casualties.

Fast action is important in my opinion. Take the control away from him.

In that situation, I feel that they should have used their numbers and surrounding objects to retaliate. By the time you are stuck in the bathroom, you are basically a sitting duck.

 

[Lex DeVille]

Can we talk strategy without politics or religion?

Given the events in France, Orlando, and elsewhere...

And @Vigilante podcast about the OODA loop....

If you were at a public event and were trapped with no escape what would be some strategies for survival?

I was thinking about the people in the restroom, trapped in a room with no escape. They had to know this guy would be coming. Is there time to organize a counter offensive? He thinks he has total control by fear. You and your peeps in the bathroom have the advantage of numbers and element of surprise.

You have been drinking and now running on full adrenaline, sweating and scared.

Thinking about resources available and the imminent threat, some ideas came to mind.

1) The toilet seats could be removed and used as a weapon

2)the stall doors could be used as a shield or ram

3)Your belts could be tied together to make a trip.

You know where he will enter and you have a good idea about his posture. You know if he enters and controls the room you most likely will not survive.

Any other situational ideas are welcome.

Are there any legal, strategic weapons that one could carry into a bar or concert?

Again, I don't want to devolve into rights, gun control, politics, or religion. Please keep responses to strategy and strategic information.

Just as the forum has a "Fastlane" mindset, I'd suggest there is also a "survival" mindset.

So imagining and mentally rehearsing situations is key. Awareness of surroundings and exits is also key.

When police and military breach a room there are several elements that come into play:

Surprise
Speed of attack
Loudness
Aggressiveness

A lion jumps out of the bushes and charges you while roaring, then bites your face off while you stand in place. That's an example.

It's also a mentality. Reactor versus responder. Victims react. Police respond.

Weapons:
Toilet seat
palms of hands thrust toward face
Heel of toe kicking a shin can't be seen from eye level if you're close.
Bathroom / stall door depending on which way it opens
Elbows
Keys (not held between knuckles unless you want to break your fist)
Phone
Biting
Any blunt object

The gunman holds the weapon out in front of him meaning it enters the room first. Standing beside the door (inside the room) the weapon can be grabbed while someone smashes the face of the assailant with the back of a toilet or other object.

In any case fight or flight dictates the weapon can't be complicated because everything except gross motor movements goes out the window.

Non-Weapon:
Yelling / screaming
Mean mug with teeth bearing

Duck and cover:
Distance + Objects between you and the assailant = better chance to avoid getting hit.
If running away run in a zigzag pattern as much as possible.
Crouch to the floor, but don't lay on it. Creates a smaller target for bullets ricocheting or traveling along the floor.
Get away from walls. Bullets can travel along walls.

Standard order for non-combatants:

Escape the building.
If escape is impossible, hide.
If hiding is impossible, fight.

If police breach the building, drop to the floor and don't move until they tell you, or risk getting shot.

There are a thousand things you might possibly maybe potentially consider.
Until it happens it's really difficult to know how you'll respond.

Here's a link to a free FEMA online active shooter training if anyone is interested.

 

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[Dwight Schrute]

Are there any legal, strategic weapons that one could carry into a bar or concert?

Depending on the buckle, a belt can become a nasty, nasty whip...

A papertowel placed in your fist and €2 coins between your fingers make a decent knuckle duster. Go for the throat.
Don't know about the size of american coins tho.

 

[GSF]

Easy for me to write this now but being in that situation would be total panic. But based on the restroom situation, group of you trapped in the restroom with no exit, knowing the shooter is coming, there likely wouldn't be time to get resources (take of doors/ toilet seats etc) for use as weapons or barricading. Everyone would need to quickly agree to charge the shooter and take control, and not to cower and plead. maybe turn the lights off to confuse the shooter as he enters. maybe remove belts and use as weapons. Last resort I guess would be to play dead.

 

[LifeTransformer]

How many glasses, bottles, tables and chairs could have been in that place?

Table = potential battering ram/shield?
Chair = whack him with it?
Bottles/Glasses = throw them at him?

I don't know though, no idea how I would react because I wasn't there.

 

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[Runum]

How many glasses, bottles, tables and chairs could have been in that place?

Table = potential battering ram/shield?
Chair = whack him with it?
Bottles/Glasses = throw them at him?

I don't know though, no idea how I would react because I wasn't there.

Agreed. I don't want this to be Monday morning quarterbacking. We weren't there.

However, it's not a bad thing to think about the resources and possible plans of action that could be taken in a similar scenario.

Place must have been full of booze > Someone must have had a lighter > Molotov cocktail.

Just a thought.

I don't smoke so, never thought about a lighter. Thanks.

Thanks for the input guys. You are thinking about things I had not considered.

Also, thanks for keeping it civil.

 

[leavingslowlane]

ive thought about this before too, especially relating to situations on a plane or some other confined space. i think that having sudden, preferably surprise, massive action is the key. if you can have 3 or 4 people suddenly attack/resist youll be infinitely better off than if its just 1 person. being there is an entirely different situation than thinking about while i sit in my office but i dont see how thinking about it can hurt.

 

[Runum]

Relevant article.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/06/14/how-survive-active-shooting/85861892/

 

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[Vigilante]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/reconstruct-orlando-pulse-shootings.html?_r=0

Some first hand survivor accounts.

 

[Vigilante]

Can we talk strategy without politics or religion?

Given the events in France, Orlando, and elsewhere...

And @Vigilante podcast about the OODA loop....

If you were at a public event and were trapped with no escape what would be some strategies for survival?

I was thinking about the people in the restroom, trapped in a room with no escape. They had to know this guy would be coming. Is there time to organize a counter offensive? He thinks he has total control by fear. You and your peeps in the bathroom have the advantage of numbers and element of surprise.

You have been drinking and now running on full adrenaline, sweating and scared.

Thinking about resources available and the imminent threat, some ideas came to mind.

1) The toilet seats could be removed and used as a weapon

2)the stall doors could be used as a shield or ram

3)Your belts could be tied together to make a trip.

You know where he will enter and you have a good idea about his posture. You know if he enters and controls the room you most likely will not survive.

Any other situational ideas are welcome.

Are there any legal, strategic weapons that one could carry into a bar or concert?

Again, I don't want to devolve into rights, gun control, politics, or religion. Please keep responses to strategy and strategic information.

One thing I have been thinking about. There are significant and multiple reasons to contain drinking beyond a drink or two to the privacy of private events. I don't care how tough you are, how trained you are, or how brave you are. If you are impaired by alcohol in public, there's very little upside that can come from it and a whole host of downsides. Your chances of surviving an event like Orlando if you are under the influence of alcohol are significantly diminished.

 

[Vigilante]

I have been trained a bit in Krav Maga.

It's likely that someone with marginally more training than I have, and in the rest room could have disarmed the assailant. Who knows. My Krav instructor would have had the guy dead if SHE was in that restroom. I might not succeed, but would certainly die trying. Flip the crazy switch and see what happens.

I do know that in almost all public places, I will walk in creating a mental checklist, now by reflex. People, exits, irregularities. We left one movie theater early a year ago, only to read about the arrest of the creepster in the paper a week later from that night in that movie theater. Radar confirmed working.

I also know that in certain circumstances, after trying to ensure my wife and immediate family/friends were safe, I'd make every attempt to stop the situation. I am not worried about my own death, which in some instances is the mindset it would take to terminate the assailant. You only get to live once, and I'd just assume the end be valiant. I can be crazier than the a**hole with the gun, and wouldn't have regrets. It would be my pleasure in certain circumstances to be the one running towards the action and not away from it. Not as a hero, but certainly as a Vigilante. F*ck if someone is going to come in to my home, my church, my family, my space. Wrong pick.

I am a huge proponent of conceal carry. What ever it takes. One gun in the right hands in Orlando also would have ended this and saved casualties.

If you train your body and your mind, you have a better than average chance of survival.

 

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[Lex DeVille]

I do know that in almost all public places, I will walk in creating a mental checklist, now by reflex. People, exits, irregularities. We left one movie theater early a year ago, only to read about the arrest of the creepster in the paper a week later from that night in that movie theater. Radar confirmed working.

Anyone who wants to learn more about this can pick up the book The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker.

Awareness of gut feelings saves lives.

According to de Becker it's because of micro cues our lizard brain picks up on that our conscious mind doesn't.

People who pay attention to those signals often avoid bad situations before they happen.

 

[Mattie]

I thought some months ago, I posted a video on this, where it showed the average joe untrained, wouldn't respond in time even if they had a weapon. lol I suppose if you're really brave enough you'd just be the hero and jump him and died for everyone.

 

[Vigilante]

There's a true story out of Florida several years back about a girl that was going to be raped by a machete wielding rapist who came into her bungalow through an unlocked screen door.

He was intending to rape her, yielding the machete to her throat when she reached up and forcefully grabbed the BLADE of the machete with her hand, instantly creating a blood bath but taking the attacker by surprise.

He fled. She was crazier than he was. This played out in his mind 100 times, but he never ever pictured the victim doing something so unexpected.

Most people have a crazy switch. Most never want to reach it. I have trained my older kids how to access it, as it can be the difference between life and death in certain circumstances.

If you have middle school to teenage kids, are they prepared to fight to the death if necessary? Have you equipped them? Or do you let them walk out the door innocent, unprepared, and the soft target that can be raped, assaulted, kidnapped, or killed? I can guarantee you the difficulty of the discussions and training is a better outcome than the worst case alternative.

 

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[Lex DeVille]

Never go to the club without a bro.



Never let them know he's not as tough as he looks.

 

[Veloce Grey]

Depending on the buckle, a belt can become a nasty, nasty whip...

Anyone else want to admit to owning a gold, rhinestone encrusted belt with metal crosses on it?

He fled. She was crazier than he was. This played out in his mind 100 times, but he never ever pictured the victim doing something so unexpected.

Living in a country where gun laws are far more restrictive than the US, I was discussing with a few people what legal weapons you can have nearby if someone is breaking into your home. The obvious common one is a baseball bat, but researching the laws a little closer it was startling what is/isn't legal in Australia/NZ. You can't own pepper spray for example, or body armor. Yet there's apparently no law against historical things like chainmail, shield, swords and axes. You can even pair them with modern ballistic shields and stab proof vests. So if any intruder is kind enough to give some warning you can greet them in your bedroom looking like Russell Crowe in Gladiator. That would probably qualify as unexpected.

Of course if you want to investigate something outside the fortress probably better to use video cameras, either fixed in place or even with a drone if you're creative enough.

As for a nightclub situation any extreme light or sound would seem an option to buy you some time/distract. The fairly cheap personal alarms on Amazon seem to go up to 140db and the internet is awash in ads for super bright "tactical flashlights". Both better than nothing for those uncomfortable with proper weapons like guns, knives and rhinestone encrusted belts.

 

[happybhoy]

Anyone who wants to learn more about this can pick up the book The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker.

Awareness of gut feelings saves lives.

According to de Becker it's because of micro cues our lizard brain picks up on that our conscious mind doesn't.

People who pay attention to those signals often avoid bad situations before they happen.

I was in Edinburgh the other day enjoying a sandwich for lunch at the foot of the castle.

Every day at 1pm they shoot this huge medieval cannon and I just happened to be sitting at the bottom of the cliff 50m below as they fired it.

The sound was absolutely immense. I felt it. The first thought in my head was BOMB.

It's hard to explain how my mind went, but for a millisecond I went into primal mode and felt like I was super aware of my surroundings, before I remembered the cannon.

My subconscious took over and it just handed me a plan of escape without thinking, it's like it was just stored in there ready to be handed over.

It was totally the lizard brain in action.

 

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[Andy Black]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/reconstruct-orlando-pulse-shootings.html?_r=0

Some first hand survivor accounts.

Harrowing...

 

[ChickenHawk]

the internet is awash in ads for super bright "tactical flashlights"

I saw an article that mentioned that. In fact, I just bought a little tactical flashlight. Even where guns aren't allowed, you'll be able to keep your flashlight. Blinding strobe light, hey, it will at least startle/temporary disorient someone. If someone in that restroom had a strobe flashlight, they could've even placed it on a sink, facing the door where the guy might come in.
http://www.dangerandplay.com/2016/06/12/how-to-respond-to-mass-shootings/

About Orlando, another thing that occurred to me was using the restrooms soap. That stuff is slippery. If they'd slopped a bunch of wet soap on the floor, the guy might've fallen on his a$$, giving them the chance to do something.

One thing my husband and I do now is avoid places that are gun-free zones, since criminals for some reason don't respect those friendly "gun free zone" signs. A couple months ago, I stupidly let my concealed carry expire. Orlando was a grim reminder of why I obtained it in the first place. Needless to say, I've already submitted an application to have it renewed.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

It helps - a lot - to practice. And I don't mean 'take aikido'. I mean practice, for real, with people who know what they're doing, and you still have to sign a waiver. It's scary af, but in a Situation, I want to panic slower.

And - know what to do as a first responder.

 

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[Dwight Schrute]

It would be my pleasure in certain circumstances to be the one running towards the action and not away from it. Not as a hero, but certainly as a Vigilante. F*ck if someone is going to come in to my home, my church, my family, my space. Wrong pick.

Most people have a crazy switch. Most never want to reach it.

^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^

Those assholes better know how to handle a rifle in close quarter combat.

My blood is boiling right now just from thinking about the recent and past happenings.


We all behave normal and keep our cool in our everyday little confrontations.

But when somebody points a barrel at your fellow women and men...

...it's time to go berzerk.


BECOME A CHIMP.

NO HESITATION. NO POLITICAL CORRECTNESS. NO MERCY.


Not the right time to think about a "honorable" fight.

Not the right time to think at all.


Stay away from the muzzle, kick his balls, gouge his eyes out, rip off an ear,
grab the head and smack it repeatedly against a hard surface.


Make a mess! Literally.


If you have the chance, and if you know you can,

DO WHAT HAS TO BE DONE.


Let out your inner animal, get ugly.


(F*ck, I have to calm down somehow...time for some deadlifts)

criminals for some reason don't respect those friendly "gun free zone" signs.

Yeah strange, they don't try this shit in texas at all.

Could they be just...cowards?

Naaaaaw.

 

[Runum]

Yeah strange, they don't try this shit in texas at all.

Could they be just...cowards?

Naaaaaw.

Most of your post is right on.

Careful with this comment, it can lead to getting the thread locked.

Keep on topic please.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Most of your post is right on.

Careful with this comment, it can lead to getting the thread locked.

Keep on topic please.

Ayy, I see.
Sorry.

 

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[DrkSide]

Yeah strange, they don't try this shit in texas at all.

Actually there was an incident today at a Walmart in Amarillo Texas. No casualties except for the suspect but it just shows you have to be vigilant wherever you are.

I do know that in almost all public places, I will walk in creating a mental checklist, now by reflex. People, exits, irregularities.

This is something that is absolutely necessary. Being aware of your surroundings and those around you is something most people don't pay attention to but it is something that can get you out of a situation before it ever happens.

I worked security in a large nightclub/bar for a number of years. Time and time again we could look at the people coming in and tell who was leaving before the night was over. Quite often we were right.

I urge everyone to not only exercise your right to carry if you live in the US and are able but also get real training in self defense situations. Anywhere I go (if legal) I will be armed.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

The first step in have any chance in one of these horrific scenarios is to put your f*ucking smartphone away. I've seen too many times dangerous situations erupt and instead of making a personal threat assessment, the idiot is too busy recording the event, because YouTube views are you know, more important than life itself.

 

[Vigilante]

The first step in have any chance in one of these horrific scenarios is to put your f*ucking smartphone away. I've seen too many times dangerous situations erupt and instead of making a personal threat assessment, the idiot is too busy recording the event, because YouTube views are you know, more important than life itself.

That's true and on a more macro scale. When I talk with people about vigilance, being aware of your surroundings is the key to detecting that something is amiss. The softest targets are the unaware.

Lets put ourselves in NYC, early evening. It's a simple fact that the person walking down by central park has a better chance of threat perception if your head is on a swivel and you are observing and orienting to everything your senses take in. If I put you on that same corridor, smart phone in hand and watching a YouTube video, you don't have the perception of anything other than the sidewalk square in front of you.

The #1 most basic thing you can do for your loved ones is convince them to increase their awareness. Part of the psychological trick of carrying pepper spray, a taser or a personal alarm in hand, or a gun on your hip... is the device itself increases your vigilance. It's NOT enough (@Red) to have a Kubaton in your desk drawer. If it is on your keys, and when you are walking to your car if you make a habit of putting it in hand, the reminder creates awareness. Awareness increases observation and orientation.

It's all about increasing the odds in your favor. Step #1 - get the smart phone out of your face.

 

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[E-Sharp]

Video of a student taking down a shooter at Seattle Pacific U a few years ago, using pepper spray.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...hooter-at-seattle-pacific-university-in-2014/

 

[OldFaithful]

As for a nightclub situation any extreme light or sound would seem an option to buy you some time/distract. The fairly cheap personal alarms on Amazon seem to go up to 140db and the internet is awash in ads for super bright "tactical flashlights". Both better than nothing for those uncomfortable with proper weapons like guns, knives and rhinestone encrusted belts.

I've read previously about the value of a good tactical light in various quarters, and it makes sense. Last year I purchased law enforcement grade tactical lights for myself and several of the women in my life. Remember, they can be taken on planes and in schools, where other items are forbidden!!!