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I have a problem with MJ DeMarco (Follow your passion gets a beatdown)

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sparechange

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MJ going toe to toe with trolls LOL
 
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Alden

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Wow. If you want to talk about logic, you've provided a wall of text that includes multiple survivor biases (survivor spotlighting) the narrative fallacy (podium popping) and string of non-sequiturs.



So starting a business and fighting for your life on a battlefield is a logical equivalency? Ha Ha. You're reaching my friend.



Ya mean, her feedback loop was kicked on and she was told she was good? Probably also done by her parents as well because they spotted a talent?



But passion was no where to be found. It was purpose.

MEANING AND PURPOSE motivated me.
MEANING AND PURPOSE got me to grind.
MEANING AND PURPOSE helped me overcome failure.

The passion ONLY came later when I started to succeed and see the positive results of my effort.

Winning inspires passion.
Success inspires passion.
Improvement inspires passion.
Overcoming a problem inspires passion.
Learning something new inspires passion.
Achieving a goal inspires passion.
Conquering a fear inspires passion.

You don't follow passion, passion follows you.



Sounds simple, even logical, but it is wrong.

It's the person with the strongest MEANING and PURPOSE who will win.

MEANING AND PURPOSE are things that are more intangible -- like freedom. Like walking into a car dealer and paying cash for whatever I want. Like freeing my family from poverty. Like wanting to live debt free. Like waking up at any time. Like going anywhere, anytime, and at any cost. Like never having to work another day in my life. That motivated me -- not passion.

As for your idealistic fairy tale, you're talking about following passion on a microeconomic level -- oh, I love cars! Start a car dealer! I'm passionate about painting! Sell my art!

Being passionate about freedom and independence is different than being passionate about a specific activity or industry.



LOL.

Guess the idealistic wonderland of "follow your passion" wasn't strong enough to keep ya following your passion eh?

Or strong enough to create a market need?

Or strong enough to create a job out of thin air?

But here's the thing -- had you won a Nobel Peace Prize in some type of historical endeavor because you felt a meaning and purpose behind your work, I'm sure that passion would suddenly appear as soon as your work became recognized. Such is the story for every billionaire on the planet who now stands at a podium and cherry picks the fart "follow your passion."

You're not even 20.

But if you think you've found the secret to world domination in a classroom and on a blog (despite your real world experience written above) have at it. Follow your passion while studying in France, especially if someone is subsidizing that fantasy.

The thing about the real world not lived in a classroom, it makes our life lessons awfully expensive.

View attachment 15707

Thank you @MJ DeMarco, I don't think I can find any forums on the internet with such thorough and compelling interaction. You and all the valuable contributors truly walk the walk and provide consistently.
 

dgr

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Looks like the point-of-view I've been pushing for over a decade is now starting to gain traction on the guru circuit...

Don't Follow Your Passion: 4 Reasons Why Making a Business Out of Something You Love Is a Mistake

I started 3 little businesses following whatever were my passions in those moments. At first they were awesome, but all of them failed the moment I started to gain traction and earn money. I felt some void in myself, perverting my passions... those are not my passions anymore, and now I separate business from passions (althought I'm passionate about business and success). Thanks to @MJ DeMarco and Cal Newport for that!
 

dbelov275

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First of all I have read the Fastlane Millionaire every year for the past 3 years or so. I love the book. And yes I already order Unscripted I'm still waiting for it in the mail.

I respect MJ Demarco and his work but since the the first time I read his book I can't get over the fact that he says that money is more important than your passion. That doing what you love will not make you rich.

Imagine you're on your deathbed sweaty, nervous, trying your best to stay awake because you know that as soon as you go to sleep that will be the last time you close your eyes. You're dying on a 24k gold bedframe. But you don't care nor notice all that, you keep going back to that one thing you always wanted to be. A guitarist.

That was your dream and what you enjoyed most. But it wasn't paying the bills or putting food on the table. Nobody was buying your music either because they were been torrented. Yet you still enjoyed yourself and could survive off ramen noodles as long as your guitar was properly tuned.

But the pressure from your family to provide food and shelter made you take a detour on your dream. That detour led to riches but it also robbed you of your time with your precious guitar. Yet everytime you saw your dusty guitar in the coner of your room you told yourself next week I'll have free time to play. But you never did.

And yes I know money can buy you some good guitar lessons, your own record label, and even a recording studio. But unless you're Fastlane it won't give you time. So you either choose to strive to be rich or to follow your passion. Comfort in life or regret while dying.

Both passion and riches are essential for your life so is it possible to combine them both? Or are we forever force to decide for either or?
No matter how we try to paint it, money answers all things. Money can even make you achieve your so called dream. I may have a passion for something, but when that doesn't put food, I go out of my way to make it happen. For example, I may have a passion for singing and becoming a start but I don't have enough money to make it happen yet. Then common sense should tell me to look for some sort of jobs or other opportunity, make the money and come back chasing whatsoever that was my passion. Besides, thesame passion is what will drive you to do whatsoever it takes to make money so that you can achieve your dreams.

Also, you can combined the two. Since you play guitar for passion and not for money, make money, organize a free concert, play the whole night.
 
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Sequential

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Ah yes, another isolated conclusion that looks at the end, but not at the beginning.

And why do we have these wonderful fantasies now?

Let me guess: Because Elon Musk was PASSIONATE about credit cards, payment processing and drawing up city guides?

Ha Ha, but no.

Elon Musk made his fortune in things that had zero passion ascribed to it.

However, now, billionaires can follow passion and inventive craziness when money is not an issue and they have unlimited resources. Who wouldn't!?

Heck, even I follow passion now (writing) because I can afford to -- and because now I can give ZERO f*cks. I have that in common now with billionaires.

But they/we never start that way.

Had they started with passion, they would not be billionaires and you certainly wouldn't be hero-worshiping their soundbites which I'm sure they took all but 2.5 seconds to think of. In other words, Elon Musk can do the electric car/space thing NOW because it's entangled in his meaning and purpose, and yea, he probably has passion about it.

It's easy to pursue passionate endeavors when money, paying bills, and putting dinner on the table is removed from the equation.

But like all billionaires, passion is not what launched him there. Mark Cuban was NOT passionate about reselling software and integrating systems-- but that launched him onto a path where he could pursue a passion, an NBA franchise .

Pursuit of passions, and global transformative visions come later -- and that's when they unknowingly corrupt the minds of young men with this turd pile known as "follow your passion."

MEANING AND PURPOSE (buttressed by passion via the feedback loop) is the only real driver of transformative change.

I can guarantee you, I'm more interested in your success than any billionaire. But nonetheless, I wish you luck on the passion thing -- as of now you're 28 which the last I checked, is no longer a child or a student. It is full adulthood. And yet, here you are still waiting tables and going to school most likely taught by a professor who probably hasn't started a damn thing in their life. As the old saying goes, if you want to keep on getting what you're getting, keep on doing what you're doing.

Good luck, I've tried to help and said my peace.

As I said, the real world is a far better teacher than I can ever claim to be.

I'm out.
100%. If OP had watched Musk's interviews, he even states "I looked at what could make money and started X.com" in repeated interviews. Can't link on this laptop. Musk made himself into a billionaire so he could pursue his dreams. EVEN THEN he nearly went bankrupt following them (SpaceX).
 

Sam Sciascia

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First of all I have read the Fastlane Millionaire every year for the past 3 years or so. I love the book. And yes I already order Unscripted I'm still waiting for it in the mail.

I respect MJ Demarco and his work but since the the first time I read his book I can't get over the fact that he says that money is more important than your passion. That doing what you love will not make you rich.

Imagine you're on your deathbed sweaty, nervous, trying your best to stay awake because you know that as soon as you go to sleep that will be the last time you close your eyes. You're dying on a 24k gold bedframe. But you don't care nor notice all that, you keep going back to that one thing you always wanted to be. A guitarist.

That was your dream and what you enjoyed most. But it wasn't paying the bills or putting food on the table. Nobody was buying your music either because they were been torrented. Yet you still enjoyed yourself and could survive off ramen noodles as long as your guitar was properly tuned.

But the pressure from your family to provide food and shelter made you take a detour on your dream. That detour led to riches but it also robbed you of your time with your precious guitar. Yet everytime you saw your dusty guitar in the coner of your room you told yourself next week I'll have free time to play. But you never did.

And yes I know money can buy you some good guitar lessons, your own record label, and even a recording studio. But unless you're Fastlane it won't give you time. So you either choose to strive to be rich or to follow your passion. Comfort in life or regret while dying.

Both passion and riches are essential for your life so is it possible to combine them both? Or are we forever force to decide for either or?

I'd choose to die on a golden death bed instead of a rusty bed provided by the welfare system anytime! I think this whole "Passion Crap" got started with the Oprah show. She would parade out female and effeminate male entrepreneurs telling their story from a heart felt perspective. I'll take advice from Andrew Carnegie , Rockefeller, JP Morgan or Ford any day. And as someone replied, Life choices are not binary. I'd rather be a person that can afford to hire Eric Clapton to teach me guitar, than to be a great guitarist who can't afford a nice guitar! You can have both if you have your Priorities Order.
 

Kreativez

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100%. If OP had watched Musk's interviews, he even states "I looked at what could make money and started X.com" in repeated interviews. Can't link on this laptop. Musk made himself into a billionaire so he could pursue his dreams. EVEN THEN he nearly went bankrupt following them (SpaceX).
You should definitely read his biography if you haven't already.
 
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masterneme

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I think the problem comes from not understanding what passion is and from some of you confusing concepts.

Passion is just emotional energy that motivates you to act in an engaging way.

When gurus say "follow your passion" they mean follow those activities you really like (hobbies, interests) AKA "do what you love". BUT in order to become passionate for those things you had to try them FIRST. And after doing them over and over again passion (as emotional energy) and passion (as hobby) became the same thing.

You need passion (motivational emotions) to do things but it doesn't need to come from your hobbies. Billionaires are passionate but the source of that energy doesn't come from what they love, it comes from the feedback loop of getting results, it comes from loving "the process".

And you know what? It happened the same way with your "passions".

Psychologically speaking, before you tried your hobby you were pretty much neutral about it. We have this mechanism to learn new things that makes us underestimate the complexity of a new activity so we have the confidence to try it. When we do it we realize that it's harder than it looks and we suck at it, but if we somehow like it our brain rewards us with dopamine and other stuff so we become "addicted" and do it more.

It's the competence what makes us passionate, it's doing first what makes you feel later.

The difference between b/millionaires and those who fail is that the former find a competence that fills a need/solve problems/provides value.

It's the difference between being selfish and selfless.

I add myself to the list of failing because of following my passion, I seriously encourage you not to do it, it will make you hate you passion and it will kill your success.

P.S.: Gurus and pop culture are selling you an idealized world in tune with the feels-good mentality that populates today's world. They want you engaged in meaningless acts that makes you passionately miserable and make them rich and happy. Get real, WTFU and break the SCRIPT.

Change "follow your passion" to "follow the value" and "do what you love" to "do what works".
 
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MJ DeMarco

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P.S.: Gurus and pop culture are selling you an idealized world in tune with the feels-good mentality that populates today's world. They want you engaged in meaningless acts that makes you passionately miserable and make them rich and happy. Get real, WTFU and break the SCRIPT.

Idealized fairy tales which sell a comfortable ride filled with passion and joy sell.

Realistic hardship, does not.

Featured.
 

Aaron T

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That was your dream and what you enjoyed most. But it wasn't paying the bills or putting food on the table. Nobody was buying your music either because they were been torrented. Yet you still enjoyed yourself and could survive off ramen noodles as long as your guitar was properly tuned.

Not to beat this horse anymore.. but I saw this and I wanted to share just a small bit of something I see almost every weekend.

I recently moved to Pismo Beach, CA. It is a super tiny little coastal surf town in Central Coast of California. Beautiful area without a lot of anything, however Pismo Beach is a bit of a spot for many in the surrounding area to visit so it has a boardwalk of sorts. There is a guy, looks a big ragged in what I assume is the old school Californian way, that sits on this boardwalk with a white mutt of a dog and his guitar. He sits there and plays music and sings all the time. He won't take a dime from anyone, he just wants to be on the beach singing. I have tried to give him some money, but he says he doesn't need it and he is happy as a "Pig In Shit", his words.

So you know what? I don't know if he is a failed guitarist. I don't know if he pursued his passion or not and this is where he ended up. But for Christ's sake he is happy, singing, playing guitar, essentially living on the beach (perhaps without a home, IDK.) I most certainly thinks he lives his life unscripted . I don't think he pursued money outside of passion, or pursued passion, and this is it. He might even be loaded. But I know he is enjoying his life by all appearances and he isn't half bad at the guitar or singing, and his mutt is adorable and keeps him and everyone else around him comfortable. I should post his picture here.

Also as a side note, I travel Japan for ramen and some of the best food I ever have eaten is wonderful ramen, hand made by chefs that are super passionate about their work. I am thinking you must be referring to instant noodles/ramen. That stuff is nasty.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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I most certainly thinks he lives his life unscripted .

Definitely sounds like it, I wouldn't doubt the guy was loaded but lived in a shack, which on the Central Coast should cost about $2M. So even to live in a shack and sing all day on the beach, you still need money.

Reminds me of Slo Mo... the successful doctor who quit to pursue his passion of aimlessly rollerblading on the beach...

Slomo
 

Aaron T

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Sounds like it, I wouldn't doubt the guy was loaded but lived in a shack, which on the Central Coast should cost about $2M. So even to live in a shack and sing all day on the beach, you still need money.

Can confirm. I am not kidding when I say a home built in the 70's, not updated, only 1300 usable sq.ft. will go for over 1 million. Most of the homes in my neighborhood considerably more than that. You buy a view and nothing else really.

Now assuming that guy bought his home in the 70's or 80's or even early 2000's before starting his singing journey he would be potentially worth millions just for the real estate and he would have bought it for considerably less.

For sure he is happy. Dude literally sings every weekend and refuses to take food, money, anything for it! That is living your passion!
 

Longinus

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If you want to find out what happens if you hold on to beliefs like "follow your passion", please see this documentary: Anvil: The Story of Anvil (2008) - IMDb

anvilpostermain-3.jpg


TL;DW: a bunch of 50-something guys work dead end jobs and put all their (and their family's) savings in their "passion" because they believe they will match their success from 30 years ago.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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TL;DW: a bunch of 50-something guys work dead end jobs and put all their (and their family's) savings in their "passion" because they believe they will match their success from 30 years ago.

TLDW: Did it work?
 

Longinus

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TLDW: Did it work?

Not really.

At the end of the documentary, they showed how they found a label and could play concerts worldwide. IMO they just gave it a happy end and the film gave them a small push in the back. Anvil still plays, but will never headline or fill a big venue. Most people these days know them as "those losers from that documentary". No one takes them serious. Those guys are quite pathetic.

All because they want to follow their dream.
 

GenPro

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TED talk "Learning from Dirty Jobs" will be helpful. Learning from dirty jobs

Personally I followed passion and got burned and eventually killed my passion and left with health issues. I used to work 20 hours a day for PASSION! But in my case it wasn't total waste of time and money: I found a lucrative business opportunity related to the industry of my passion but not at all close to my passion (Thank God!). Now I'm pretty much indifferent to the nature of my current work but I'm on the fastlane. And health and wealth are my priorities. Passion could change.
 
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RogueInnovation

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What I say to the OP is
It is hard to ride a bicycle when you are going at one foot per second, it is easier once you go at 3 foot per second
But to do that you have to take your feet off the ground and put them on the pedals

I mean its "the fastlane" for a reason,
Not only cuz it is the fastest way to success but also cuz its the fastest way to get over doubts and insecurity

What you wanna do is pick up that guitar, and play it, but at that same time, ride that bicycle down the road too
Thats it
Thats all it is
 

ApeRunner

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Aaron T

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Good story. Passion should be about progress, not hobbies.

For some people fortunately their hobby and passion led to freedom.

I swear as I sit here I am still coding up another cool idea. I can't imagine "retiring" and not coding. I do however like that I don't HAVE to code. There is freedom in that.
 

Puppy

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passion has just become another buzzword in todays world. it has no real meaning anymore, it does not mean what many people think it means. it has become a watered down version of its original meaning. and really really over fricking used :rage:

i believe this whole 'follow your passion' is pure BS to sell the warm tinglies to a people that want to escape from responsibility and live in a sheltered bubble where everything feels good.

i will be so happy when this passion fest fades. its gotten to the point as soon as i hear the word passion i tune out and run the other way or i stick around just to give my blood pressure a good workout.

follow your passion is an inherently selfish model, its all about you, cuz the world revolves around you and what you want. whatever happened to do what helps your fellow man and leaves you satisfied at the end of the day?



well now im just aggravated and ive gots a 6 hour drive with a non working sound system. beautiful
 

I Am I Said

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So forgive me for commenting on an old post... but I found my passion when I experienced freedom. I really can't tell you what I'll do with that freedom, but I'm passionate about obtaining it. I will work hard at finding a way to create freedom.

I took a month off work to take my wife to see her parents overseas, and spent that month driving around and exploring Australia. That's the happiest we have ever been, and I want to make that my lifestyle as soon as possible.

I can't believe a family's insistence on me providing food and shelter will ever lead to dying in a gold-framed bed at th expense of freedom.

Conforming to other peoples' pressures is a choice. You may be unpopular with them, but it's still a choice.
 
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I Am I Said

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I swear as I sit here I am still coding up another cool idea. I can't imagine "retiring" and not coding. I do however like that I don't HAVE to code. "

Yes, exactly. I'm not afraid of work, but I think it's worth pursuing on one's own terms.

I guess that's just an obvious repeat of all the same things already on this forum, so I'll shut up and read now...l
 

TheFrancophile

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I believe what MJ is not to forget your passions but rather not to have it as a starting point to develop a business, arguing "passion" does not always pays off and is more important to focus your business in providing value to others instead of making it fun for yourself. For instance if you passion is body bulding and say: I got it I will create my own gym and follow my passions if there are no customers or you do not have the skills to provide value is useless.

Of course if you can do both is amazing and is worth pursuing then for that you need 3 conditions to be profitable:

View attachment 15786
You're right, and IMHO your graph nicely sums up what is necessary for entrepreneurial success : one must be highly skilled at and passionate about doing something that other people want you to pay generously to do. If any of these three conditions is not met, you won't get paid.

The key for me right now is to work out what exactly are mankind's problems that remain unsolved and which I could solve to get nicely paid. In other words, for what products/services would a lot of people pay me?

MJ is right that all those years spent studying (and writing about) history and politics were wasted time.

BTW, I'm reading Unscripted right now and in one of the first chapters, MJ talks about a job he had after graduating from college : a job involving cleaning toilets. "If only I could have scrubbed those sh*tters with my two business degrees..."

Replace "business" with "History" and you'll know what I think about my two useless History degrees :)
 

sparechange

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Unscripted is going straight to the garbage, and I'm going to pursue my passions of sleeping 10 hours a day, snowboarding and playing video games, hopefully it works out!
 
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briteusa

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Ah yes, another isolated conclusion that looks at the end, but not at the beginning.

And why do we have these wonderful fantasies now?

Let me guess: Because Elon Musk was PASSIONATE about credit cards, payment processing and drawing up city guides?

Ha Ha, but no.

Elon Musk made his fortune in things that had zero passion ascribed to it.

However, now, billionaires can follow passion and inventive craziness when money is not an issue and they have unlimited resources. Who wouldn't!?

Heck, even I follow passion now (writing) because I can afford to -- and because now I can give ZERO f*cks. I have that in common now with billionaires.

But they/we never start that way.

Had they started with passion, they would not be billionaires and you certainly wouldn't be hero-worshiping their soundbites which I'm sure they took all but 2.5 seconds to think of. In other words, Elon Musk can do the electric car/space thing NOW because it's entangled in his meaning and purpose, and yea, he probably has passion about it.

It's easy to pursue passionate endeavors when money, paying bills, and putting dinner on the table is removed from the equation.

But like all billionaires, passion is not what launched him there. Mark Cuban was NOT passionate about reselling software and integrating systems-- but that launched him onto a path where he could pursue a passion, an NBA franchise .

Pursuit of passions, and global transformative visions come later -- and that's when they unknowingly corrupt the minds of young men with this turd pile known as "follow your passion."

MEANING AND PURPOSE (buttressed by passion via the feedback loop) is the only real driver of transformative change.

I can guarantee you, I'm more interested in your success than any billionaire. But nonetheless, I wish you luck on the passion thing -- as of now you're 28 which the last I checked, is no longer a child or a student. It is full adulthood. And yet, here you are still waiting tables and going to school most likely taught by a professor who probably hasn't started a damn thing in their life. As the old saying goes, if you want to keep on getting what you're getting, keep on doing what you're doing.

Good luck, I've tried to help and said my peace.

As I said, the real world is a far better teacher than I can ever claim to be.

I'm out.
MJ,

I left a review on Amazon.
 

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passion has just become another buzzword in todays world. it has no real meaning anymore, it does not mean what many people think it means. it has become a watered down version of its original meaning.

Every time I did something I was passionate about for money, it took the fun out of it and I quit doing it. I’ll go after passionate shit when I can do it for the right reasons, unscripted .
 
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MJ DeMarco

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I’ll go after passionate shit when I can do it for the right reasons, unscripted .

Yes! And then your focus remains being true to your art and your heart, and not true to "what will the market like?!".
 

Matt Hugh

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I read 7 Habits years ago and there are plenty of useful ideas in it. But what purpose does this concept of legacy and what people will say about you after you are gone serve you today?

Pretty soon you and I will all be dead and everyone who knew us will be dead as well. Yet there will still be humans wasting precious time worrying what they'll be thinking of on their death beds or what people will say about them. For what?

Instead do what Stephen did and create your own fastlane products. That's legacy. One you can enjoy the fruits of while you are still alive. Passion comes after the doing. Wanting to "do what you love" can easily become an excuse for doing nothing.
 
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