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Do you live off of your business(es) and/or investments?

Do your business(es) and/or investments support you?

  • Yes

    Votes: 18 33.3%
  • No

    Votes: 18 33.3%
  • No, but it is a portion of my income

    Votes: 18 33.3%

  • Total voters
    54

kimberland

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Thanks again for the input, but this is getting a little embarrassing since I feel like the thread's become an analysis of me and my financial future!

Actually, it isn't.
Not really.
I think most of us have thought long and hard about
making a big corporate salary for seed money vs immediately bootstrapping,
even had to justify it to friends and families.
This has merely given us an opp to discuss it.

Because of the nature of this board,
most members, I believe, lean towards bootstrapping
but I've seen people be successful with both routes.

Jill, you talk about investing $15k a month.
Do you mind me asking what that is as a percent of total takehome?
Because when I tell folks that we invest with our J.O.B. cash,
they immediately think that 10% advisors throw around.
That isn't exactly working for seed money.
 
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kimberland

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In the process of playing cashflow, I recall that it was more difficult to enter the fastlane (MJ, we need a new game) if you started out as a doctor or lawyer as opposed to being a mechanic.

SteveO, do you think this is due to
higher expenses,
longer working hours,
or
the lawyer's brain being completely drained at the end of the day?
Or maybe a combo of all three?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately.
My brother (an aspiring screenwriter) works a relatively manual job.
His brain is pretty much fresh at the end of the day
so he can write while he's working.
By the end of my day (in new business development),
I'm mentally wiped.
I can barely work on my investments,
never mind write a fresh piece of fiction
(one reason I take the summers off to write).

So which of our jobs is more conducive to building wealth?
I'm thinking his.
 

bflbob

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I haven't played Cashflow, but I imagine in the real world, it's more difficult for a doctor or lawyer to go from 'S' to 'B' because their work is so specialized. While many small business owners can farm out the work they do to other employees, the work doctors and lawyers do is so specialized that it can be difficult (and many times illegal) to try to pass the work off to employees as opposed to doing it themselves.

Just a guess...

In my experience, it is due to the doodads they feel they need.

While a garbage collector can get by driving a '92 pickup truck, a doctor 'needs' an '08 Mercedes.

Garbage collector -- no college loans. Doctor -- HUGE college loans.

Garbage collector -- kids go to public school. Doctor -- private school.

So, in order to cover the required expenses, the garbage collector can maintain his lifestyle on $2,400 of passive income, so $600,000 in a CD returning 5% would work for him. A piece of RE, with a 15% COCR, would only require a $200,000 investment.

But the doctor might need $30,000 per month to maintain his lifestyle. That would take over $7,000,000 earning the same 5% return. The doctor would have to come up with a $2,400,000 investment in RE at that 15% to do the same.
 

Jonleehacker

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do you think this is due to
higher expenses,
longer working hours,
or
the lawyer's brain being completely drained at the end of the day?
Or maybe a combo of all three?

In the game it's because of higher expenses. The doctor and lawyer have 4 or 5 times the expenses, but only about double the cashflow, so naturally it takes longer for them to build passive income > expenses.

In the real world, I think you have a great point. That was something I loved about my job, it was gone from my head the second I stepped out the door of the office and I was in business building mode the moment I got home.

There's a great t-shirt for entrepreneurs who still have a job:

My Real Job Starts at 5pm

jitcrunch.aspx
 
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SteveO

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SteveO, do you think this is due to
higher expenses,
longer working hours,
or
the lawyer's brain being completely drained at the end of the day?
Or maybe a combo of all three?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately.
My brother (an aspiring screenwriter) works a relatively manual job.
His brain is pretty much fresh at the end of the day
so he can write while he's working.
By the end of my day (in new business development),
I'm mentally wiped.
I can barely work on my investments,
never mind write a fresh piece of fiction
(one reason I take the summers off to write).

So which of our jobs is more conducive to building wealth?
I'm thinking his.

Wow... I still remember my last couple of years on my job. The long "extra" hours stopped. I came home to work on my investments and plan. The job became less of a hinderance at that point. It may be a major hurdle to some though.
 

kimberland

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Yeah, I know it's not wise to funnel all my energy
into building other people's businesses.

I'm hoping that once the writing career gets busy
(first novel out in May),
that'll give me the same high product development does.

It IS like launching two new products a year.
All aspects of a product launch are covered.
 

GoldenEggs

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At my last job, I started out as a file clerk and worked 8:30-5pm and the pay was low. No overtime and the job was easy, answer phones, put files away open and deliver the mail. I had time for school, to work on our garden, cook/bake from scratch and research investing options.

When I was promoted to a paralegal and my pay kept going up, if I wanted to leave by 6pm, I had to get to work by 7am. Our expenses did go up because I had no time/energy to cook, clean and I "needed" material rewards for the stressful week. I began having a more disposable lifestyle because it was "cheaper" for me to just buy new and have it shipped to the house.

Now I am working for myself, I am back to low pay and low expenses. I'm still working a lot of hours but I'm getting 100% of the benefit now.
 
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andviv

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I can't help it... I keep thinking about that thread we had here about the comfort that a high-paying job provides, so many see that as a problem that won't let you take the steps needed to make it big time. Why? Because, if you don't do anything, you still get your salary coming in.
Very good thread.
 

Jill

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...Do you mind me asking what that is as a percent of total takehome?
Because when I tell folks that we invest with our J.O.B. cash,
they immediately think that 10% advisors throw around.
That isn't exactly working for seed money.
I WISH! No, it's about 50%.
 

Andrew

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Interesting discussion how people justify not starting a business and/or putting the business on low priority in order to maintain a current lifestyle/standard of living.

From my own personal observations and experience, its a bit different. The people who focus on their own business and really understand the "big picture" (e.g., thinking globally, not locally) blow past the big spending wage earners.

I went from full time student, part time job, trying to work 7 days a week on my business to working on my business exclusively 7 days a week, and my income jumped by about 30-40x, and its still going up.

This wasn't like going from $100 a month to $4000 either, by the time I walked away my earnings were already substantial.

Just like you get an exponential growth from compounding $$$ ROI, I believe you get that same compounding effect with focus.

Now, its not my job to tell anyone what to do. Live your life exactly the way you want to, no one else can tell you how to be happy. Just make sure you think things out as you go so you don't end up somewhere you don't want to be.
 
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Jill

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Thanks for your response to that, JScott. I was trying to figure out how to respond to it without sounding defensive.

I think what some folks haven't stopped to consider is that sometimes the big ships turn somewhat slower than their little Hobie cats. If I didn't have the lives and lifestyles of my husband and daughter to consider, then I could sell everything, live in an apartment with a couple of roommates, and invest $20K/month instead of $15K (or whatever the numbers turn out to be). But that's not an option for me now. So I have to work with that which I have - which is not all that bad for a lowly "wage earner". I'm sure that Andrew and others are able to sock far more than $15K/mo into their fastlane projects than I am. But we work with the hands dealt us, eh?
 

phlgirl

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Nothing in life is guaranteed. There is no guarantee that a new (or existing) business will make X amount of income. Likewise, there is no guarantee that an employee will have his/her job tomorrow.

I think a big part of it comes down to control. As MJ often says, would you like to be the driver or the passenger?

There is no doubt that you can do well, financially, in either situation but it is arguable as to whether you can accomplish massive wealth without owning your own company. The tax implications of being an employee are simply not in your favor.

Not everyone is comfortable being the driver. Some people feel safer as an employee and others truly feel more secure running the show themselves.

I fear that what some employees might be missing (if in fact they do want to drive), is that it probably does not take quite as much as one might think to replace their existing income. With the change in taxation, you can make substantially less and still KEEP the same amount. You do not have to start from scratch. You can buy an existing operation, which is producing income day one. As a high salaried employee, unless you have really slacked on saving, it is likely that you have the capital to engage in such an activity.

It all comes down to what you want. Do you want to do the extensive research and planning? Do you want the responsibility? Do you want to deal with the fear, which often comes with change?

People who want it are not any better or worse than those who do not. It’s about choice.
 

CarrieW

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I would be one of those people who would LOVE to trade places with Jill lol.

heck Id trade with a teenager working at mcdonalds at this point!

Id love to be able to put away any amount of money a month towards my investing goals. I am forced to try to create income instead. it would be way easier to have a job to get the money rather then making it come from the air.(for me anyway) unfourtunatley getting a job isnt in the cards for me so I got to do what I got to do.

right now we have a surplus of about 55bucks a month and that usually gets spent on the kids or gas. $55 doesnt go very far these days!

I am taking my seed money for forex out of our income tax return.
 

phlgirl

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As Jill pointed out, it sometimes sounds as if some people (and I'm not pointing you out specifically Phlgirl, but this post made me think of it) believe that working a job is somehow an inferior method of bootstrapping than doing so without a job. As if people who choose the job route vs another route are somehow making a "bad choice."

Just to be perfectly clear…. I do not view employee bootstrapping as an inferior practice. I too was an employee – in fact, in the same profession as Jill – and I can say that I would not be where I am today without that experience – from a financial or business sense point of view.
Above, you talk about control, and you imply that a business owner *necessarily* has more control than an employee. Are you sure that's the case?
Yes, in my opinion, this is the case. For good or bad, as a business owner, you get final say as to the financial/operational decisions of the company.
As I've pointed out many times in multiple threads (without any comments to the contrary), you are *always* an employee in some respect. The second richest man in the world (Bill Gates) has a boss (Steve Ballmer) who answers to the company's board of directors who answers to the company shareholders. And every single one of them answers to the customers.

I disagree. While I respect and care for my customers, vendors and investors, I do not view them as my boss. Bill Gates chooses to be an employee now, after creating substantial wealth as the founder/creator of this company.

In my line of work, my customers are my tenants. If anything, I tend to view them as an employee of the company. When they complete a rental application, it is like a job application. If they do not perform, according to the employment agreement (lease), they are fired (evicted). Do I create a nice work (living) environment and try to understand their wants/needs? Of course – because that is good business – and a good work environment is conducive to productive employees. :)
Jill makes enough income as an employee to put away $15K a month after taxes. Regardless of what many of the people on this forum say about how bootstrapping through your own business is better than bootstrapping through having a job, I'm guessing that 95% (or more) of the people on this board would trade positions with Jill for the next 3 years in order to save a half million dollars that they could then use to bootstrap their investment initiatives. I'm in the same boat as Jill, and while it might have been fun to try to bootstrap from nothing a few years ago, I'm quite thrilled with the fact that my compensation as an employee (and specifically the stock options part of the compensation) has given me the luxury of not *having* to bootstrap from nothing.
Of course a lot of people would trade with Jill (although I am not sure about 95%). The greater percentage of our population is not in a secure financial position. For the record, I think Jill has stated that she is not an employee. As I understand it, she has a company and contracts her services through this entity.

It’s entirely up to the individual, as to what they do with their lives. No one is right or wrong, better or worse. You must, however, in my opinion, own up to the fact that you are making the choice. I made the employee choice for many years and was completely comfortable with the fact that I was making a decision not to leave because, at the time, I felt more secure as an employee. The more I learned, the less comfortable I became with this concept - this is why I made the choice to leave.

I think, for the most part, we are on the same page, JScott. :)
 

Jill

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To take the subject back off my particular situation, and frame it in more generic terms...

The "choice" should be a business decision, IMO. It should not be about "comfort", "control", "security" or "happiness" or any of the other feelings that have been attributed throughout this board as the reason someone stays in a JOB.

Let's suppose that someone wants to start a new fastlane business, but they have $0.
  • Do you think it would be easier to get financing if he had income from a JOB or was self-employeed?
  • Do you think it would be easier to pay off other (credit card debts for instance) if he had a job, thereby improving his FICO faster?
  • Do you think he could build a business faster if he started from $0? Or if he started with $1, 2 or 300K bankroll?
  • Would it be easier to buy inventory if he had some capital to invest?
These are the types of questions he should be asking himself when deciding whether it is time to go full-time.
-----------------------

And as an aside (back to me)... Yes, Phlgrl, I do have my own corp. I am an Employee of that corp. But as a professional services provider, I am very much an "S". This could be turned into a "B", by adding other consultants to my stable of talent, and "selling" them in addition to -or in lieu of - myself. That is an incremental step I have planned on the road to freedom. But for now, I'm not going to kill the goose that is giving me golden eggs every month to build my "I".
 
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AroundTheWorld

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This has been framed so far as a dilemma or a decision for the high wage earner - but I feel it is actually an issue for ANY "E" that has made the decision to work toward financial independence. The zero's don't matter. It is the process, the lessons, the decisions, and the drive that matters. To me, it is a three part question...


1) - - - THE DECISION to move toward passive income. There is a big distinction between an "E" that is happily working away as an "E" with no plans for financial independence and the "E" that recognizes the need for financial security through financial independence. Of course, once an "E" realizes that it will be a goal to work toward financial independence, the transition does not occur overnight. Many people on this board have the objective of eliminating the "E" - - - and therefore react negatively to that "one letter bad word." Once an "E" makes the decision to go financial independence, there are two basic options...

2) - - - THE OPTIONS. The decision has been made to become financially independent. Now, a choice. Do you use some of your saved capital for living expense, quit the "E" cold turkey and start the B or I? Or, do you continue the E (therefore supporting the lifestyle without cutting into capital) and work on the B or I in off hours.... ? (read 4 hour work week a great way to increase the number of hours you have). In a given timeline, which option will produce the desired result (passive income)? All the following factors certainly play into that...

Do you think it would be easier to get financing if he had income from a JOB or was self-employeed?
Do you think it would be easier to pay off other (credit card debts for instance) if he had a job, thereby improving his FICO faster?
Do you think he could build a business faster if he started from $0? Or if he started with $1, 2 or 300K bankroll?
Would it be easier to buy inventory if he had some capital to invest?

The result will be different for everyone here - and there is no universal "correct" answer.

3) - - - And finally, LIFESTYLE and life enjoyment. This has to play into a decision. The lifestyle of a bootstrapper or an REI or a business owner is certainly much different (no better or worse) then someone that must go to a job. How will the decision effect your happiness? How will it effect your family? When I graduated from college, I got a job offer from a Big 5 (at the time) accounting firm. I could have taken the career path - and worked 60 hours a week. In the end, I decided not to accept the job. I just couldn't imagine working that many hours away from my kids. I am reading the 4 hour work week, and it is a great book for someone concerned about enjoying life now, rather then deferring that enjoyment.


It is easy to say that this is a high earner dilemma - but it is actually a decision for each and every person that has not yet "arrived" at the destination.
 

kimberland

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The way I see it,
if Jill is banking 50% of her takehome
and invests that at 15% (not exactly fastlane),
she'll cover her expenses with passive income
in less than 5 years.

Would you give up 5 years on your plan
to be financially secure forever?

I would and I did.
I gave up 13 years of the plan
(well, not really as I was working on elements at the same time)
for exactly that
('cause ignorant me was investing at lower rates).

Its not fastlane thinking
but it makes sense to me.
 

Russ H

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Jill-

I want to recant some of my earlier comments to you.

When I first read your posts, you sounded like a classic "rat racer", unwilling to give up any creature comforts (aka "doo-dads") or make any changes in lifestyle.

That sounds like most of the 3-weeks-away-from broke middle classers in the US.

Take away their primary source of income, and they're screwed-- in part b/c they feel like they must continue their lifestyle, no matter the cost. We even interviewed a gal last year who had been a real estate agent for 3 years-- and not made a SINGLE SALE!!

She had refi'd her house, cashed out, and was living off the HELOCs, paying for her lifestyle (drove a Jag, wore Manolos) by just increasing the loan on her house.

She realized that her time of living off credit was nearing an end, and she was very honest, looking for a "fun job" while she hunted for some guy to take care of her (and no, I'm not making this up. I was flabbergasted!).

Am I comparing you to her? No.

Well, OK, I am. In some ways.

Your first posts indicated someone who worked hard, and was proud of their expensive lifestyle. The words you chose made you sound like a classic "E"* (employee).

From your follow up posts, I can see that you are a high-income "S"* (self employed), and are employing a pre-tax income strategy (very smart, and not very middle class rat race).

After I read Rich Dad Poor Dad, I too turned my "S" business into a real money machine (I grossed between $300-500K a year, and put away A LOT of that).

But the more I played Cashflow, the more I realized we were doing things the slow way.

WAY slow. :rolleyes:

So my wife and I talked about what we wanted to do with our new found knowledge, developed a new PLAN, and we ramped down both of our "S" businesses.

Short version: Took me 8 years to get about $500K as an "S".

Once we started our new PLAN, we made about $1.2M in less than 2 years.

Three years after that, and we're just about to pass the $5M mark.

Happy to give you more details at the meet up, if you want. :)

-Russ H.


*Definitions for those reading this post who have not read the "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" books.
 
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kimberland

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1) - - - THE DECISION to move toward passive income. There is a big distinction between an "E" that is happily working away as an "E" with no plans for financial independence and the "E" that recognizes the need for financial security through financial independence.

That's what I don't understand from this discussion
and why I asked what percent of income was being banked.
Who is saying that passive income isn't being built?

Jill, are you stuffing that $15k under your mattress every month?

Heck, she could be investing in real estate, stocks, private placements, etc.
Is that not fastlane thinking?
 

AroundTheWorld

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Exactly!!

I'm trying to point out here that IT IS A PROCESS!!!!

Just because you are "E" does not make you a drone. You can be an E in the process of obtaining financial independence.
 

Jill

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...Your first posts indicated someone who worked hard, and was proud of their expensive lifestyle....
Not exactly. I'm not "proud" of my expensive lifestyle. I simply enjoy it. And there are many things that I AM trying to cut back on, such as $900 electric bills. :cuss: Not too proud of that.

And the other thing you got wrong - I don't really work that hard!! :jiggy:

Happy to give you more details at the meet up, if you want. :)

-Russ H.
Most definitely! I look forward to picking your brain. Nothing would make me happier than hanging my "consulting" clothes in the closet for good.
 
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kimberland

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I'll float something else...
if you are an entrepreneur
(i.e. might not apply to paper and real estate investors),
you'll only last so long in corporate anyway
before you lose your mind.

Jonleehacker calls it the entrepreneurial switch.

One of my mentors told me
work as long as you can,
bank as much as you can,
learn as much as you can,
'cause one day that door will be closed
and once it closes,
it closes forever.

When it closes,
ya gotta be prepared.
Have some sort of replacement income
(passive or otherwise).

I thought that was a load of hooey
but it happened to me at 34.
Although I still take contract gigs,
I could never ever go full time again.
That door is closed.

I give the contract gigs less than 5 years
before I won't be able to stand those either.
I have to get something else
(not for the money, that is covered
but because I'll do insane).
 

Starsky

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I can't help it... I keep thinking about that thread we had here about the comfort that a high-paying job provides, so many see that as a problem that won't let you take the steps needed to make it big time. Why? Because, if you don't do anything, you still get your salary coming in.
Very good thread.

I kindly disagree somewhat with the above & here is why. Ill use myself for example.

I work for major company that pays me very well to just to watch TV(of course there is more). It has excellent benefits, a fixed 7am-3pm schedule & over 6 weeks vacation. It provides me an easy way to get loans because I can full doc & my 401K is looked at as reserves money.. Using that a starting point, I can now buy property anytime I want to because of it-- verses if I was just an entrepreneur having to bootstrap and go stated on loans(which is harder to do nowadays)

I mentally focus on opportunities as if would need to depend on them in the future.. My current business along with the properties I own, I could probably live on now but not comfortably..
 

Sid23

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Short version: Took me 10 years to get about $500K as an "S".

Once we started our new PLAN, we made about $1.2M in less than 2 years.

Three years after that, and we're just about to pass the $5M mark.

Maybe a "my success story" post is in order, Russ? :banana:

I know we'd all appreciate hearing how this happened. It gives hope to those looking to make the change and working on our PLAN.
 
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Russ H

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Y'know, it's not easy being "E",

(with apologies to Kermit)

at least on the fastlane forums.

But as some have said, criticizing someone just b/c they work a J.O.B. is a bit disingenuous.

So what if you have a JOB---what if that JOB generates $120K a year for you for investing into things, and that's part of your overall PLAN?

This J.O.B. (and PLAN) are certainly more "fastlane" than a NNWKIA** who "owns their own business", likes exotic cars, but actually doesn't bank anything *close* to $100K a year into investments.

Nothing that special about being an E, or an S, or even a B or I for that matter*.

It's what you DO with your time, and your money, that counts.

Robert Kiyosaki's point is that, structured right, you can get a LOT more done, with less personal time commitment, as a business owner or investor.

I agree.

-Russ H.

*Kiyosaki divides money generating into 4 quadrants, E (employee), S (self employed), B (Business owner) and I (investor). He points out that the money Es and Ss can make is limited by how much of their own personal time they put in. But a proper Business owner or Investor can use leverage--other people's money, skills, time, etc-- to make money. B and I are scalable. E and S are not.

** NNWKIA No net worth know it alls. An acronym coined by MJ for all the "experts" on the rich dad forums who were long on advice but short on cash.
 

Starsky

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Y'know, it's not easy being "E",

(with apologies to Kermit)

at least on the fastlane forums.

But as some have said, criticizing someone just b/c they work a J.O.B. is a bit disingenuous.

So what if you have a JOB---what if that JOB generates $120K a year for you for investing into things, and that's part of your overall PLAN?

This J.O.B. (and PLAN) are certainly more "fastlane" than a NNWKIA** who "owns their own business", likes exotic cars, but actually doesn't bank anything *close* to $100K a year into investments.

Nothing that special about being an E, or an S, or even a B or I for that matter*.

It's what you DO with your time, and your money, that counts.

Robert Kiyosaki's point is that, structured right, you can get a LOT more done, with less personal time commitment, as a business owner or investor.

I agree.

-Russ H.

*Kiyosaki divides money generating into 4 quadrants, E (employee), S (self employed), B (Business owner) and I (investor). He points out that the money Es and Ss can make is limited by how much of their own personal time they put in. But a proper Business owner or Investor can use leverage--other people's money, skills, time, etc-- to make money. B and I are scalable. E and S are not.

** NNWKIA No net worth know it alls. An acronym coined by MJ for all the "experts" on the rich dad forums who were long on advice but short on cash.


Pretty much agree with the above, sometimes I have to take a slight break from this forum from time to time, because of all of the "fast/slow lane, millionaire, J.O.B is bad malaise".. IMHO the goal should be to achieve your level of personal success, not everyone can be a millionaire, but more people can be a 100 thousandnaire & if they reach that then the millionaire status isnt far off with the right money moves..
 

SteveO

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because of all of the "fast/slow lane, millionaire, J.O.B is bad malaise"..

This forum is about learning the ways of the fastlane. Why else would someone be here?
 
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kimberland

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Exactly, Russ...
what is important is that we're progressing towards B or I
and that if we're E's,
we're using that time and income wisely.

Frankly, I wasn't ready for the fastlane 10 years ago.
It was so far away from my own reality that I couldn't grasp it.

I couldn't go from debt is good because it paid for toys
to debt is good because it increases the return
without the debt is bad in between stage.

I knew, intellectually, that it made sense,
I did the numbers,
I helped others with their own deals,
but I just couldn't connect the dots for myself.
It was very frustrating.

I don't know... I guess I needed the baby steps.
The detox before the new lifestyle.

Now I'm ready though.
I'm getting serious about my paper investing
and I'm looking out for a business idea.

I know this contract gig thing is going to end soon
so I have that incentive.
 

SteveO

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I see what you mean JScott. I do agree with it as well.

There are many different paths to the fastlane. MJ took a very different route than I did but we both made it. He sacrificed his early years while I went off to work on a job for my career. My awakening was much later in life.

From my perspective, I have a recipe that should yield results if followed. Do whatever it is that you can to make as much money as you can. Develop a plan for investing this money that fits with your risk/rewards level (your risk is minimized with a good plan).

My idea would be to save 50K and put it into an apartment deal (self serving but this is the path that I know!). Team with others and make sure you have a plan for value improvement.

You should be set after a couple of apartment turns.

See how easy it is!
 

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