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Atlas Shrugged - Week 2: Chapters 3-4

Kak

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Hank says something about the whole situation w/ Conway when he said that type of ineptitude is worthless or self-defeating.. we just have to keep going.
That is easy for him to say at this point in the book. They haven't come for him...

People are full of human emotion.

I am not saying Dan is right or wrong. I am saying I understand how he feels and can respect his decision to quit.

It isn't self defeating when he was defeated by the mob.
 

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lludwig

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Anyone else surprised at the pace of the book? For a book that's 1,600 or something pages, I was expecting some of these events to happen a little later.

I think we are in for a wild wild ride.
It gets better (worse :) ).
 

reedracer

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Who else likes Fransisco D'anconia?
He should buy the Conway line and bust all their alliance crap to hell.
 

BellaPippin

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I have to say I often relate so much to the almost depressed way about both Dagny and Hank.
And that, kids, is why I joined The Fastlane Forum.


...Also I'm still just lurking because I'm waiting for you guys to catch up to part two which is where I had left it. All these questions I already got some of the answers to and I don't want to spoil.
 

lludwig

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I have to say I often relate so much to the almost depressed way about both Dagny and Hank. Surrounded by way too many people that "don't get it." Both from a business perspective and a political perspective. It is highly frustrating to the point of wanting to refrain from some social encounters.

...

This misunderstanding and unidimensional thinking of the the James Taggart type parallels a lot of what we hear from people like Bernie Sanders when they BRAG about erasing the net worth of billionaires with a wealth tax. A remedy for an effect without even considering the cause. What cause created that billionaire? What cause are you erasing by erasing that profit motive effect?

...

If we were to accurately argue what he wants to do, it is to get rid of the ability to become a billionaire. Which means getting rid of the profit motive. Which means getting rid of the things we do for profit. Which means dumping an entire enterprise that employs, serves and profits an asking market of people.
I agree with most of this sentiment, unfortunately.

There are a lot of stupid people spewing stupid ideologies. The point is people emote more and more (what about the poor people!) then being rational. That's NOT to say we can't help the unfortunate, but we shouldn't be altruistic and sacrifice the rich.

Though to get back to modern-day, Bernie Sanders makes statements about taxing Billionaire's wealth without even understanding the economic consequences that would occur. As if billionaires have their money under a mattress. Though it becomes clear it's not about helping the poor it's about punishing the successful.

You'll hear a lot about altruism, but not in the traditional sense but how Ayn Rand and Objectivism defines it.

"What is the moral code of altruism? The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue, and value.

Do not confuse altruism with kindness, goodwill or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice—which means; self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction—which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good."
Ayn Rand's book - The Virtue of Selfishness goes into more detail on this.


and this recent book by Peter Schwartz


I can understand now how communism/socialism and religion are very much related, but that's a discussion for another day.
 

MTEE1985

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I fundamentally disagree with this down to the marrow of my bones and I may end up having an emotional breakdown about it somewhere in the future but until then.. I love your thoughts. Lol.

Are we really rating action over intelligence? This has to be a false dichotomy.. you need both.
For most of my life I disagreed with it as well because that’s not what we were taught. We were taught that the most educated by the system were the future leaders and the world changers. As I’ve advanced in age I see more and more that it’s simply not true.

Do you need intelligence? Certainly. Jim Taggart is very intelligent. Those people don’t move the world though. The critical thinkers, the risk takers and the decisive ones who are confident in their decision do.

This world is filled with people who want to defer any and all decisions to others. It’s also filled with intelligent people. I’d rather hire somebody with the gall to take over my responsibilities than one who waits to be told what to do.

I saw an article not too long ago about a very successful VC who asked one questions of his investments: “What if it works?” That is what Dagny is saying. If Rearden metal is as good as she thinks than she will not only save the company but grow it astronomically.

If it doesn’t work? Doesn’t really matter at that point. The world needs more people asking what if it works. Those people are the producers who leave the world a better place.
 
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For most of my life I disagreed with it as well because that’s not what we were taught. We were taught that the most educated by the system were the future leaders and the world changers. As I’ve advanced in age I see more and more that it’s simply not true.

Do you need intelligence? Certainly. Jim Taggart is very intelligent. Those people don’t move the world though. The critical thinkers, the risk takers and the decisive ones who are confident in their decision do.

This world is filled with people who want to defer any and all decisions to others. It’s also filled with intelligent people. I’d rather hire somebody with the gall to take over my responsibilities than one who waits to be told what to do.

I saw an article not too long ago about a very successful VC who asked one questions of his investments: “What if it works?” That is what Dagny is saying. If Rearden metal is as good as she thinks than she will not only save the company but grow it astronomically.

If it doesn’t work? Doesn’t really matter at that point. The world needs more people asking what if it works. Those people are the producers who leave the world a better place.
I spent the last hour consulting w/ a man who has done everything humanly possible to force his body to function more efficiently.. he has been active 1000x more than most ppl would dream in his pursuit of healing.

It still didn’t work.

Yet. When I used my intelligence to address the situation in a completely different way.. stuff changed. And when I say “stuff” I mean his actual joints and bones moved to different places.

Meh. This is a personal button. I just.. I can’t put my finger on it but.. there’s something wrong with touting “Take Action! Take Action!” if you’re dismissing intelligent meditation to prepare for those actions. Going too far in EITHER direction seems foolish to me. I think they have to be used together.
 

BizyDad

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You know who you don't hear about anymore? All the other college dropouts that started computer companies in the 80's.

To say that life rewards the risk takers as revisionist history.

For every Bill Gates there's a thousand who don't make it.

For every Robert de Niro there's a thousand two don't make it.

Back before the.com bubble burst there were plenty of people saying, what if it works? Amazon survived. How many others?

by all accounts, Amazon has a smart leadership team and always has. So did Apple, so did Microsoft.

Who says smart people don't change the world? I'm thinking of Jonas Salk.

Smart and decisive are not mutually exclusive.
 

MTEE1985

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Do you need intelligence? Certainly.

I’m not dismissing intelligence. Both Taggarts are intelligent, only one is decisive with it. My money is on her 100% of the time.

Ideally they are used together but we just don’t see that often in life. Gun to my head, I’ll take a decisive person over a “smart” one.
 

BizyDad

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I’m not dismissing intelligence. Both Taggarts are intelligent, only one is decisive with it. My money is on her 100% of the time.

Ideally they are used together but we just don’t see that often in life. Gun to my head, I’ll take a decisive person over a “smart” one.
That last comment sounds like you're being dismissive of smart people. But hey, the gun's to your head. :rofl:

To be fair, James Taggart destroyed a competitor decisively. He also built a railroad.

He makes decisions. He just doesn't seem to be too "business smart".
 

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csalvato

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I’m not dismissing intelligence. Both Taggarts are intelligent, only one is decisive with it. My money is on her 100% of the time.

Ideally they are used together but we just don’t see that often in life. Gun to my head, I’ll take a decisive person over a “smart” one.
Intelligence without action is nothing more than masturbation, imo.

Someone who is a 0/10 in either intelligence or action will always be screwed.

Someone who is a 5/10 on intelligence and a 10/10 on action will beat the person who is 10/10 on intelligence and 5/10 on action...every single day of the week.

Someone who is intelligent and decisive (like Francisco or Dagny), who is a 10/10 on both is an unstoppable force. Real life examples of this include Bezos, Musk and Gates.
 

MTEE1985

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To be fair, James Taggart destroyed a competitor decisively. He also built a railroad
My understanding at this stage of the book was that he inherited it and were his last name not Taggart he likely would have accomplished very little.

Intelligence without action is nothing more than masturbation, imo.

Someone who is a 0/10 in either intelligence or action will always be screwed.

Someone who is a 5/10 on intelligence and a 10/10 on action will beat the person who is 10/10 on intelligence and 5/10 on action...every single day of the week.

Someone who is intelligent and decisive (like Francisco or Dagny), who is a 10/10 on both is an unstoppable force. Real life examples of this include Bezos, Musk and Gates.
This is put much better than my mis-mash.
 
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Intelligence without action is nothing more than masturbation, imo.

Someone who is a 0/10 in either intelligence or action will always be screwed.

Someone who is a 5/10 on intelligence and a 10/10 on action will beat the person who is 10/10 on intelligence and 5/10 on action...every single day of the week.

Someone who is intelligent and decisive (like Francisco or Dagny), who is a 10/10 on both is an unstoppable force. Real life examples of this include Bezos, Musk and Gates.
Beat them at what? Everything? Is this an absolute? (I know I’m fighting for the whiny donut eaters of the world but I feel COMPELLED to argue.. I dunno why.)

Dammit. I just thought a scripture verse that agrees with you. Whatevs. Blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

*goes to get candy
 

csalvato

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Beat them at what? Everything? Is this an absolute?
I can't think of anything where this is not true.

History is rife with examples in every domain, from scientific discovery (Watson & Crick compared to Franklin), manpowered space flight (The Wright Brothers compared to Samuel Pierpont Langley) to space travel (SpaceX/Musk compared to NASA/JPL)....

Micro-examples are all over this forum, as well.

I'd be inclined for you to point out a counter example where the clearly more intelligent person accomplished their goals better than the person with an action bias.
 
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BizyDad

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James Taggart decided to build the San Sebastian. James Taggart is crushing the Phoenix Durango.

I'm just saying those people you mention were more than just decisive and smart.

Gun to my head, I'd rather be decisive and smart too, but that is no guarantee for success. Literally thousands of those people "fail" every year.

You guys keep presenting this dicussion as decisiveness vs intelligence and then saying it's both. I can't keep up.
 

SamRussell

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Though to get back to modern-day, Bernie Sanders makes statements about taxing Billionaire's wealth without even understanding the economic consequences that would occur. As if billionaires have their money under a mattress. Though it becomes clear it's not about helping the poor it's about punishing the successful.
I think Bernie understands the consequences of his policies better than the people voting for him... and better than the people he's running against
 
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I can't think of anything where this is not true.

History is rife with examples in every domain, from scientific discovery (Watson & Crick compared to Franklin), manpowered space flight (The Wright Brothers compared to Samuel Pierpont Langley) to space travel (SpaceX/Musk compared to NASA/JPL)....

Micro-examples are all over this forum, as well.

I'd be inclined for you to point out a counter example where the more clearly more intelligent person accomplished their goals better than the person with an action bias.
*whimpers in the corner

I can't think of anything where this is not true.

History is rife with examples in every domain, from scientific discovery (Watson & Crick compared to Franklin), manpowered space flight (The Wright Brothers compared to Samuel Pierpont Langley) to space travel (SpaceX/Musk compared to NASA/JPL)....

Micro-examples are all over this forum, as well.

I'd be inclined for you to point out a counter example where the more clearly more intelligent person accomplished their goals better than the person with an action bias.
It’s not.. ugh.. I’m just saying being prepared is better than randomly taking action..

*whimpers in the corner

Lol not really but lol.. but.. gahh I don’t know!
 

1step

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Who else likes Fransisco D'anconia?
I wasn't going to mention it because I am not sure how things end up for him and didn't want to insult you but now that you say you like him... At the beginning his character was reminding me of you.

I am in chapter 10 now and I am not seeing you as much recently
 

Andy Black

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Are we really rating action over intelligence?
I’m not even reading the book but had to respond to this.

I like the phrase “Wisdom is earned.”

And the litmus test of a businessman I respect is “Are they street smart?” (Blaise Brosnan)
 

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I wasn't going to mention it because I am not sure how things end up for him and didn't want to insult you but now that you say you like him... At the beginning his character was reminding me of you.

I am in chapter 10 now and I am not seeing you as much recently
Oh don’t read ahead we won’t get to hear you wondering about stuff! Poo.
 

lludwig

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I think Bernie understands the consequences of his policies better than the people voting for him... and better than the people he's running against
Are you saying he’s purposely punishing the wealthy?
 

lludwig

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Or we could discuss the politics of Orren Boyle! Yay! Book discussion!
Yea, unfortunately, it's one and the same ;-)

Getting back to Boyle , I always think of Barney Frank the former senator in appearance and presentation.
 
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Who else likes Fransisco D'anconia?
I just want you ppl to know that every single person who liked this post is CLEARLY in book discussion trouble!!

Y’all cannot possibly like him unless you’ve already read ahead!

*pulls heavy table away from cute living room set up
*mumbles “book discussion cheaters don’t deserve snacks at all!!!”
*puts crappy old snacks on table (just the veggie plate!!!)

Everybody who “likes” d’ Anconio can just sit over here and talk amongst yourselves!

Humph. Now I’m gonna type out my response to csalvato and read the next two chapters..like a GOOD participant!!

*takes the chocolate brownies
 

reedracer

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More Chapters, Aye!
 
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I can't think of anything where this is not true.

History is rife with examples in every domain, from scientific discovery (Watson & Crick compared to Franklin), manpowered space flight (The Wright Brothers compared to Samuel Pierpont Langley) to space travel (SpaceX/Musk compared to NASA/JPL)....

Micro-examples are all over this forum, as well.

I'd be inclined for you to point out a counter example where the clearly more intelligent person accomplished their goals better than the person with an action bias.
TLDR: Active ppl are like Alexander the Great, Thinkers are like Aristotle. The world needs both.

Ok, I’d like to clarify terms.

You’re talking about ppl who act vs people who sit around doing mental masturbation. The equivalent in my mind is between a person who starts a business selling knickknacks vs a person who takes three months to design their perfect Knick knack business cards.

I have a lot more in common with the business card dreamer. I concur with you. A person who takes action in business will always outperform a person who never acts or a person who takes very little action.

Now, I had a fascinating conversation this evening with an extremely wealthy client (If his job title, car, and mighty girth are any indication) about General Patton and this quote “A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week.”

I agree with that quote. I’m relatively sure I agree with everything you’re saying @csalvato

But my brain had already skipped ahead and slid into thinking about just how valuable restfulness truly is. To me, action is the right leg; intelligent thoughtfulness is the left leg. When they work together we have progress. A person who puts no value on deep intellectual work will function but they’ll end up in circles. They might succeed at first but they’ll be outdone by the person who acts and thinks hard and gets restored and tries again.

But then my brain kept on going... I wasn’t thinking about assessment or planning or sitting around developing strategy.. . I was thinking about stuff like this book discussion or fine poetry or the deep calm breathing that happens while sitting in front of the fire. THAT is the other half of Action that is imperative for balance. My friend mentioned yin and yang and I think that’s how I feel. Action and Rest. War and Home.

People talk about action as the end all be all and, I get feisty. Tell me who made the bigger influence Alexander The Great or Aristotle who taught him? You can’t. They’re BOTH important.

One of the reasons I’m fighting for this SLOW ON PURPOSE book discussion is because I see ridiculously hardworking ACTIVE men and women every day who are miserable. They’re stressed and they don’t take time to restore their hearts or get encouragement or exercise their brains in ANY area BUT work. It’s not healthy. They don’t even know how to think deeply about a topic sometimes. They know how to make tons of money (much more than me) they know how to run companies (they always want to help me) but they don’t enjoy much or notice the smell of Fall or think about adding virtue to the world and they don’t have besties who make them snacks. I feel bad for them. But if they didn’t work their tired butts off the world wouldn’t be half as awesome as it is.

If Rand hadn’t made the connection to lightning for us or written this book with such a foreboding imminent tone of danger.. I would be rooting nonstop for Rearden while feeling immense pity towards him. As it is, I’m already a nervous wreck thinking about Dagny. I want her safe. But she won’t be. She’s an Alexander the Great. As for me, I’d rather be (at least a little) like Aristotle.

Phew! I’m out.
 

BizyDad

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TLDR: Active ppl are like Alexander the Great, Thinkers are like Aristotle. The world needs both.

Ok, I’d like to clarify terms.

You’re talking about ppl who act vs people who sit around doing mental masturbation. The equivalent in my mind is between a person who starts a business selling knickknacks vs a person who takes three months to design their perfect Knick knack business cards.

I have a lot more in common with the business card dreamer. I concur with you. A person who takes action in business will always outperform a person who never acts or a person who takes very little action.

Now, I had a fascinating conversation this evening with an extremely wealthy client (If his job title, car, and mighty girth are any indication) about General Patton and this quote “A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week.”

I agree with that quote. I’m relatively sure I agree with everything you’re saying @csalvato

But my brain had already skipped ahead and slid into thinking about just how valuable restfulness truly is. To me, action is the right leg; intelligent thoughtfulness is the left leg. When they work together we have progress. A person who puts no value on deep intellectual work will function but they’ll end up in circles. They might succeed at first but they’ll be outdone by the person who acts and thinks hard and gets restored and tries again.

But then my brain kept on going... I wasn’t thinking about assessment or planning or sitting around developing strategy.. . I was thinking about stuff like this book discussion or fine poetry or the deep calm breathing that happens while sitting in front of the fire. THAT is the other half of Action that is imperative for balance. My friend mentioned yin and yang and I think that’s how I feel. Action and Rest. War and Home.

People talk about action as the end all be all and, I get feisty. Tell me who made the bigger influence Alexander The Great or Aristotle who taught him? You can’t. They’re BOTH important.

One of the reasons I’m fighting for this SLOW ON PURPOSE book discussion is because I see ridiculously hardworking ACTIVE men and women every day who are miserable. They’re stressed and they don’t take time to restore their hearts or get encouragement or exercise their brains in ANY area BUT work. It’s not healthy. They don’t even know how to think deeply about a topic sometimes. They know how to make tons of money (much more than me) they know how to run companies (they always want to help me) but they don’t enjoy much or notice the smell of Fall or think about adding virtue to the world and they don’t have besties who make them snacks. I feel bad for them. But if they didn’t work their tired butts off the world wouldn’t be half as awesome as it is.

If Rand hadn’t made the connection to lightning for us or written this book with such a foreboding imminent tone of danger.. I would be rooting nonstop for Rearden while feeling immense pity towards him. As it is, I’m already a nervous wreck thinking about Dagny. I want her safe. But she won’t be. She’s an Alexander the Great. As for me, I’d rather be (at least a little) like Aristotle.

Phew! I’m out.

28538
 
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And ANOTHER thing!

Y’all who are reading this book fast.. I love you guys but.. you’re doing a disservice to yourself. You have an opportunity here to experience something.. and you don’t see it but you’ll miss out by going fast. Truly.

It’s like shoving $500 chocolate down your throat. This book isn’t crappy candy from the dollar store. But whatevs. If I don’t change your mind about Measured Reading with this epic book discussion I’ll just hafta try again next year with another.. Oy.

To all of you who are committed to staying on schedule, I salute you and thank you. Remind me to buy you a drink or give you a hug or otherwise support your endeavors. It wouldn’t be fun without you.
 

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