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Atlas Shrugged - Week 2: Chapters 3-4

SamRussell

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Are you saying he’s purposely punishing the wealthy?
he isn’t interested in punishing the wealthy...

Bernie will make more sense after “the speech”.
 

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Bekit

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And ANOTHER thing!

Y’all who are reading this book fast.. I love you guys but.. you’re doing a disservice to yourself. You have an opportunity here to experience something.. and you don’t see it but you’ll miss out by going fast. Truly.

It’s like shoving $500 chocolate down your throat. This book isn’t crappy candy from the dollar store. But whatevs. If I don’t change your mind about Measured Reading with this epic book discussion I’ll just hafta try again next year with another.. Oy.

To all of you who are committed to staying on schedule, I salute you and thank you. Remind me to buy you a drink or give you a hug or otherwise support your endeavors. It wouldn’t be fun without you.
Let me tell you, it is NOT easy restraining myself to stay on pace. Even if it is like gobbling down $500 chocolate like it was Cheerios or something.

I usually read books like a golden retriever eats raw chicken chunks that you drop over its nose: I greedily wolf down the words. Without chewing.
:rofl:

Once I get into a story, I will keep. wolfing. it. down. even to the detriment of sleep and valuable tasks. It's as if this compulsion comes over me and I can't stop turning pages, even when I get to the point where I'm so tired that I'm holding one eye open at a time.

So (A) it is very dangerous for me to allow myself to get into an engaging book, and (B) it's shocking to me that I've been able to convince myself to stay on pace this time.


Nother topic... I'm just gonna leave this here.
Oh and d’Anconio must be the biggest shmuck pos in the world. He made Dagny ugly cry!!! AWFUL man!! I hope somebody kicks him in the balls.
Who else likes Fransisco D'anconia?
I just want you ppl to know that every single person who liked this post is CLEARLY in book discussion trouble!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Do you have that version?
No, my version looks like this:
28540
11 hours 34 minutes.

Versus Audible: 62 hours and 56 minutes. So my version is reduced to a paltry one-sixth of itself.

Upside: I get more of the action and less of the talking and descriptive adjectives.

Downside: I didn't hear about the rats. There was no scene so far where d'Anconia and Dagny even interacted, much less one where he made her cry. The lightning bolt was left out. A lot of stuff y'all are talking about is simply missing. :rofl::eek:
 

csalvato

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TLDR: Active ppl are like Alexander the Great, Thinkers are like Aristotle. The world needs both.

Ok, I’d like to clarify terms.

You’re talking about ppl who act vs people who sit around doing mental masturbation. The equivalent in my mind is between a person who starts a business selling knickknacks vs a person who takes three months to design their perfect Knick knack business cards.

I have a lot more in common with the business card dreamer. I concur with you. A person who takes action in business will always outperform a person who never acts or a person who takes very little action.

Now, I had a fascinating conversation this evening with an extremely wealthy client (If his job title, car, and mighty girth are any indication) about General Patton and this quote “A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week.”

I agree with that quote. I’m relatively sure I agree with everything you’re saying @csalvato

But my brain had already skipped ahead and slid into thinking about just how valuable restfulness truly is. To me, action is the right leg; intelligent thoughtfulness is the left leg. When they work together we have progress. A person who puts no value on deep intellectual work will function but they’ll end up in circles. They might succeed at first but they’ll be outdone by the person who acts and thinks hard and gets restored and tries again.

But then my brain kept on going... I wasn’t thinking about assessment or planning or sitting around developing strategy.. . I was thinking about stuff like this book discussion or fine poetry or the deep calm breathing that happens while sitting in front of the fire. THAT is the other half of Action that is imperative for balance. My friend mentioned yin and yang and I think that’s how I feel. Action and Rest. War and Home.

People talk about action as the end all be all and, I get feisty. Tell me who made the bigger influence Alexander The Great or Aristotle who taught him? You can’t. They’re BOTH important.

One of the reasons I’m fighting for this SLOW ON PURPOSE book discussion is because I see ridiculously hardworking ACTIVE men and women every day who are miserable. They’re stressed and they don’t take time to restore their hearts or get encouragement or exercise their brains in ANY area BUT work. It’s not healthy. They don’t even know how to think deeply about a topic sometimes. They know how to make tons of money (much more than me) they know how to run companies (they always want to help me) but they don’t enjoy much or notice the smell of Fall or think about adding virtue to the world and they don’t have besties who make them snacks. I feel bad for them. But if they didn’t work their tired butts off the world wouldn’t be half as awesome as it is.

If Rand hadn’t made the connection to lightning for us or written this book with such a foreboding imminent tone of danger.. I would be rooting nonstop for Rearden while feeling immense pity towards him. As it is, I’m already a nervous wreck thinking about Dagny. I want her safe. But she won’t be. She’s an Alexander the Great. As for me, I’d rather be (at least a little) like Aristotle.

Phew! I’m out.
At the risk of sounding like a philosophical dickhead: this is a straw man.

A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.
  1. You're refuting the argument that restfulness is a waste. I never said that. I value restfulness.
  2. You're refuting the argument that thoughtfulness is a waste. I never said that. I value thoughtfulness.
  3. You're refuting the argument that intelligence is a waste. I value intellect.
  4. You're refuting the argument that planning is a waste. I never said that. I value planning.

My actual assertion is this: all things being equal, you want to have a bias towards action and decisiveness – even if you're not sure what you're doing is the "right"or "smart" thing.

One who is comfortable making decisions when not having time to properly plan; without knowing if it's the "right" or "smart" choice; will go farther than the person who takes hours, days, weeks or years meticulously thinking about and plans every step of the way.

My assertion is that it's best to make informed decisions, but that's often a luxury. The better way to go is to just make a decision and act with the information you have.

If it is the wrong one, 999/1000 times you can correct that wrong decision with a future correct one.

The greatest minds in history would almost always agree, and if you read their autobiographies, often have direct quotes that state very similarly what I say above.

And this is also the value that Dagny embodies 100% in her character so far.

----------------------------------------

PS - To batter at the straw man for a minute: Aristotle, Salk and Einstein are action takers/leaders/decision makers, just like Bezos, Alexander the Great and Rockfeller.

That is, Aristotle is not the opposite of Alexander the Great. He took action and made decisions daily, and was arguing in the forums daily, teaching people and refining his explanations/methods.

The other side of the "Alexander the Great" spectrum is not Aristotle: it's the the person who is binge watching netflix sitcoms and documentaries all day every day, thoughtlessly growing to 800 lbs by eating Big Macs every day while collecting disability and welfare checks.

----------------------------------------

PPS - Based on everything you've said, it's clear we are in complete agreement. :bullseye: It was still worth pointing out the straw man, though, because it seems like you're working on reconciling the notion of greatness and how it relates to taking action.
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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At the risk of sounding like a philosophical dickhead: this is a straw man.



  1. You're refuting the argument that restfulness is a waste. I never said that. I value restfulness.
  2. You're refuting the argument that thoughtfulness is a waste. I never said that. I value thoughtfulness.
  3. You're refuting the argument that intelligence is a waste. I value intellect.
  4. You're refuting the argument that planning is a waste. I never said that. I value planning.

My actual assertion is this: all things being equal, you want to have a bias towards action and decisiveness – even if you're not sure what you're doing is the "right"or "smart" thing.

One who is comfortable making decisions when not having time to properly plan; without knowing if it's the "right" or "smart" choice; will go farther than the person who takes hours, days, weeks or years meticulously thinking about and plans every step of the way.

My assertion is that it's best to make informed decisions, but that's often a luxury. The better way to go is to just make a decision and act with the information you have.

If it is the wrong one, 999/1000 times you can correct that wrong decision with a future correct one.

The greatest minds in history would almost always agree, and if you read their autobiographies, often have direct quotes that state very similarly what I say above.

And this is also the value that Dagny embodies 100% in her character so far.

----------------------------------------

PS - To batter at the straw man for a minute: Aristotle, Salk and Einstein are action takers/leaders/decision makers, just like Bezos, Alexander the Great and Rockfeller.

That is, Aristotle is not the opposite of Alexander the Great. He took action and made decisions daily, and was arguing in the forums daily, teaching people and refining his explanations/methods.

The other side of the "Alexander the Great" spectrum is not Aristotle: it's the the person who is binge watching netflix sitcoms and documentaries all day every day, thoughtlessly growing to 800 lbs by eating Big Macs every day while collecting disability and welfare checks.

----------------------------------------

PPS - Based on everything you've said, it's clear we are in complete agreement. :bullseye: It was still worth pointing out the straw man, though, because it seems like you're working on reconciling the notion of greatness and how it relates to taking action.
You don’t sound like a philosophical dickhead at all. You sound like someone who values staying on track, logically following a sequence. I like it.

The thing is I don’t think that way, at all, so I’m going to need to you to keep editing my rambles and put them all in order (with this level of kindness I hope).

That way all my emotional stuff and zigzagging ness that is me sifting through ideas will be stripped right out.

Because I AM reconciling greatness and action. I don’t agree with you about .. something in here. I’m scrabbling for mental ground to stand on because oy you’re wicked smart. Hence the whimpering and going off on a tangent.

Sadly, I don’t think you’re a person who can help me make any huge internal shifts philosophically but I do appreciate you calling me out on stuff. I will continue to think it over.
 
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Primeperiwinkle

Primeperiwinkle

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Let me tell you, it is NOT easy restraining myself to stay on pace. Even if it is like gobbling down $500 chocolate like it was Cheerios or something.

I usually read books like a golden retriever eats raw chicken chunks that you drop over its nose: I greedily wolf down the words. Without chewing.
:rofl:

Once I get into a story, I will keep. wolfing. it. down. even to the detriment of sleep and valuable tasks. It's as if this compulsion comes over me and I can't stop turning pages, even when I get to the point where I'm so tired that I'm holding one eye open at a time.

So (A) it is very dangerous for me to allow myself to get into an engaging book, and (B) it's shocking to me that I've been able to convince myself to stay on pace this time.


Nother topic... I'm just gonna leave this here.



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


No, my version looks like this:
View attachment 28540
11 hours 34 minutes.

Versus Audible: 62 hours and 56 minutes. So my version is reduced to a paltry one-sixth of itself.

Upside: I get more of the action and less of the talking and descriptive adjectives.

Downside: I didn't hear about the rats. There was no scene so far where d'Anconia and Dagny even interacted, much less one where he made her cry. The lightning bolt was left out. A lot of stuff y'all are talking about is simply missing. :rofl::eek:
Bekit.. I think you’d really enjoy the writing of the original. It’s fabulous.
 

Kak

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Let me tell you, it is NOT easy restraining myself to stay on pace. Even if it is like gobbling down $500 chocolate like it was Cheerios or something.

I usually read books like a golden retriever eats raw chicken chunks that you drop over its nose: I greedily wolf down the words. Without chewing.
:rofl:

Once I get into a story, I will keep. wolfing. it. down. even to the detriment of sleep and valuable tasks. It's as if this compulsion comes over me and I can't stop turning pages, even when I get to the point where I'm so tired that I'm holding one eye open at a time.

So (A) it is very dangerous for me to allow myself to get into an engaging book, and (B) it's shocking to me that I've been able to convince myself to stay on pace this time.


Nother topic... I'm just gonna leave this here.



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


No, my version looks like this:
View attachment 28540
11 hours 34 minutes.

Versus Audible: 62 hours and 56 minutes. So my version is reduced to a paltry one-sixth of itself.

Upside: I get more of the action and less of the talking and descriptive adjectives.

Downside: I didn't hear about the rats. There was no scene so far where d'Anconia and Dagny even interacted, much less one where he made her cry. The lightning bolt was left out. A lot of stuff y'all are talking about is simply missing. :rofl::eek:
Yes. Buy unabridged books if you want the full experience. Buy abridged if you want to get 75% of the experience.
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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Yes. Buy unabridged books if you want the full experience. Buy abridged if you want to get 75% of the experience.
Did you get a plane? Lol. Nice pic dude!
 

Kak

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Did you get a plane? Lol. Nice pic dude!
Nah, still renting and goofing off with it like a hobby. That was a Grumman Albatross though a very cool airplane.
 

Kruiser

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I just want you ppl to know that every single person who liked this post is CLEARLY in book discussion trouble!!

Y’all cannot possibly like him unless you’ve already read ahead!
So, @Kak's D'Anconia post was a trap? Ha, ha. Oh, well...

@Primeperiwinkle, what's the matter with reading ahead? Are you trying to hold us back? Trying to make sure that we all have a fair chance? Trying to ensure the Equalization of Opportunity?

I jest...
 

reedracer

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Was Dagny's decision spur of the moment or action over well informed and intellectual decision? Not in the slightest. She's a 15 year veteran in the railroad industry after growing up in the business. And she has been working on the problem of the Rio Norte line well over a year and had started down the path of Reardon already. As happens in any project, one or more parameters changed and needed a decision and Dagny delivered one base on her amassed experience and knowledge.

Lack of knowledge leads to indecision. When you are a wantrepeneur, you engage in action faking due to not knowing what will happen if you take a decisive step. This is a form of fear or ignorance because you cannot see the outcome.

I
 

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broswoodwork

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Not strictly related to ch3&4 but...

Rereading this book is having a peculiar effect on me now that I actually run a small business.

I'm giving contractors and suppliers one word answers, making decisions instantaneously, pushing dates forward on goals, and being almost a little too abrupt with people who intrude on my work.

I better slow my roll a bit. :D
 

csalvato

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Lack of knowledge leads to indecision. When you are a wantrepeneur, you engage in action faking due to not knowing what will happen if you take a decisive step. This is a form of fear or ignorance because you cannot see the outcome.
This implies that someone like Dagny can see the outcome.

Indecisiveness causes indecision, not lack of knowledge imo.

And indecisiveness is caused by thinking you need to know the outcome, which is all but impossible when considering common business and life decisions where the outcome is always unknown.

Imo indecision comes from not knowing your values, because in times where you can’t predict the outcome, you will make the decision that is consistent with your values and beliefs.

Dagny knows her values. Yes, she also knows her industry... I think that’s secondary.
 

BizyDad

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This implies that someone like Dagny can see the outcome.

Indecisiveness causes indecision, not lack of knowledge imo.

And indecisiveness is caused by thinking you need to know the outcome, which is all but impossible when considering common business and life decisions where the outcome is always unknown.

Imo indecision comes from not knowing your values, because in times where you can’t predict the outcome, you will make the decision that is consistent with your values and beliefs.

Dagny knows her values. Yes, she also knows her industry... I think that’s secondary.
Are we reading the same book? Dagny can see outcomes. That's not an implication; it's in the book.

Dagny correctly predicted the nationalization of the San Sebastian (I'd love to know how she figured that out). She and Dan Conway seemingly accurately predicted the future if she doesn't rebuild the Rio Norte line. She knows it, Dan knows it, Orren Boyle knows it, Hank Reardon knows it.

She's (They're) able to do these things because she knows her industry. I think @reedracer is right.

When asked why she made a decision, she always has a thought out reason. She presents research/evidence, not values. In contrast, James Taggart presents values as reasons for his actions. And yet, he's the one we've labelled as indecisive.

What am I missing?

It seems like maybe you are sharing things you've found to work for you, which is cool. Everyone's entitled to their life view. But you're also acting like the book backs you up, so I'm confused.

Can you make this connection more obvious? What part of the book makes you think her decisiveness is based on values? Which values is she relying on? Where does she discuss or ponder these values? How do you feel about James Taggart as decisive or indecisive and as a values based decider? Can that character help make your point?

Side note... if indecisiveness causes indecision, then does decisiveness cause decision?
Side side note... Isn't this begging the question?
 

Strategery

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In contrast, James Taggart presents values as reasons for his actions. And yet, he's the one we've labelled as indecisive.
You think he uses values to make decisions ...or emotions?
 

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Dagny can see outcomes. That's not an implication; it's in the book.

Dagny correctly predicted the nationalization of the San Sebastian (I'd love to know how she figured that out). She and Dan Conway seemingly accurately predicted the future if she doesn't rebuild the Rio Norte line. She knows it, Dan knows it, Orren Boyle knows it, Hank Reardon knows it.

She's (They're) able to do these things because she knows her industry. I think @reedracer is right.
Dagny CANNOT see outcomes.

Dagny makes reasoned predictions based on what she knows and intuits.

She does not have a crystal ball.

She still must be decisive in the face of the unknown.
 

Strategery

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Dagny CANNOT see outcomes.

Dagny makes reasoned predictions based on what she knows and intuits.

She does not have a crystal ball.

She still must be decisive in the face of the unknown.
Like the gumball machine in Unscripted... She's got more gold
 

BizyDad

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Dagny CANNOT see outcomes.

Dagny makes reasoned predictions based on what she knows and intuits.

She does not have a crystal ball.

She still must be decisive in the face of the unknown.
Yes exactly. And she's able to be decisive based on what she knows and intuits. It's not values.

The future is not entirely unknowable either, as seemed to be stated.

Look, I know we'll have another recession. Don't need a crystal ball to see that. I know it'll hit Phoenix harder than the rest of the country.

I'm diversifying my client portfolio as a result to include clients from elsewhere as well as different industries. This will lead to certain inefficiencies, hence I avoided it until now.

I know this because I've lived long enough to see recession come and go and what it is like in my home town. My business has survived one, we'll survive the next. This time, we may even thrive, as I expect my higher priced and less prepared competition to quit, as happened last time. (Woah, another prediction) Plus I've got other ideas and am preparing my team to take advantage of a down turn.

Forget gumballs and crystal balls, this is normal business common sense, isn't it? And if it isn't, shouldn't it be? Back to Dagny.

So I am not saying she is a prophet or soothsayer. I agree she uses reason, intuition, and I'll add experience and research to make her predictions of outcomes.

So far she acts on those predictions first and foremost. She's a total planner.

She knew her brother's arguments about switching steel suppliers too. "I know everything you’re going to say." And she was right. She knows her brother well.

When something unpredictable happened, and her brother was gloating, she instantly realized she didn't have enough time to build the railroad. So her first action was to try and convince her competitor to fight it, essentially to buy herself more time.

When she failed at that, she went to Reardon. It cost her more. Remember she had an alternate plan for if Reardon couldn't deliver steel too.

Her brain is "constantly making calculations".

This is all in the book guys. This is the step by step calculations of a savvy operator. She operated on cause and effect, not on values.

So I think she is able to adjust on the fly, not because she values action, but because she has industry knowledge and forethought. She knows the players and the game.

And she speaks to others as if they have this ability too. And several people in the book seem to.

Anyways, that's my too lengthy thoughts on how Dagny makes her decisions.

At the end of the day, it is a book discussion, and I didn't agree with some stuff that was said based on the book. But maybe y'all read ahead and know stuff that I don't, so if that's the case then thank you for not "spoilering".

You think he uses values to make decisions ...or emotions?
He has made decisions based on friendship and loyalty. Also for the good of the Mexican people. I call those values. I understand if you call them emotions. He has definitely made other decisions purely on emotion.

The only other person I think is a "value based decider" is Eddie, who doesn't understand why people don't just do the right thing, but he hasn't really made decisions worth discussing so I brought up James as a more interesting example.
 

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When asked why she made a decision, she always has a thought out reason. She presents research/evidence, not values. In contrast, James Taggart presents values as reasons for his actions. And yet, he's the one we've labelled as indecisive.

What am I missing?

It seems like maybe you are sharing things you've found to work for you, which is cool. Everyone's entitled to their life view. But you're also acting like the book backs you up, so I'm confused.
I never said she doesn't use her experience to make decisions. I asserted that:

1. She has values
2. Those values are very clear.
3. Her values drive her decisions when she is unsure on the outcome.

Her values and decisions that follow are made pretty clear throughout chapters 3 and 4 here, imo. Here's some quotes from Ch 4...

Dagny clearly values others not doing things solely for her sake, even to her own detriment:

“That’s why I’d enjoy trying it—because you’re the only exception. So you think it’s right that I should squeeze every penny of profit I can, out of your emergency?”
“Certainly. I’m not a fool. I don’t think you’re in business for my convenience.”
“Don’t you wish I were?”
“I’m not a moocher, Hank.”
Dagny values creating over leeching/looting:

Oh God, Dan, I don’t want to be a looter!”
Dagny values taking initiative and "making your own luck":

“To hell with that. I intend to make my own chance.”
And here's her in Ch4 using these values to make a values-based decision to complete the railway in 9 months instead of 12, come hell or high water. She's surprised at the outcome (her surprise indicating she didn't know whether or not she would be able to find a way to make the Rio Norte happen):

“That’s the story, Hank. I had worked out an almost impossible schedule to complete the Rio Norte Line in twelve months. Now I’ll have to do it in nine. You were to give us the rail over a period of one year. Can you give it to us within nine months? If there’s any human way to do it, do it. If not, I’ll have to find some other means to finish it.”
Rearden sat behind his desk. His cold, blue eyes made two horizontal cuts across the gaunt planes of his face; they remained horizontal, impassively half-closed; he said evenly, without emphasis:
“I’ll do it.”
Dagny leaned back in her chair. The short sentence was a shock. It was not merely relief: it was the sudden realization that nothing else was necessary to guarantee that it would be done; she needed no proofs, no questions, no explanations; a complex problem could rest safely on three syllables pronounced by a man who knew what he was saying.
I never said that her experience was irrelevant nor that it did not come into play. I'm only stating that it's secondary – considered after she considers her values.

Her values are her North Star.

IMO decisiveness and values-based decision making are a key theme in Atlas Shrugged, and, to me, this jumps off the page within the first few chapters.

Side note... if indecisiveness causes indecision, then does decisiveness cause decision?
Yes, of course.

Indecisiveness causing indecision is a tautology; as is saying that decisiveness causes decisions. This use of a tautology was purposeful rhetoric to get us to start from scratch.

Side side note... Isn't this begging the question?
I don't believe I am begging the question, so if you can highlight how I've done that I would be interested.

I love when I'm caught in a logical fallacy, since that's when I improve.

So far she acts on those predictions first and foremost. She's a total planner.

Her brain is "constantly making calculations".
Being a planner/calculated and being guided by values are not mutually exclusive. I don't believe that was ever said or implied.

He has made decisions based on friendship and loyalty. Also for the good of the Mexican people. I call those values. I understand if you call them emotions. He has definitely made other decisions purely on emotion.

The only other person I think is a "value based decider" is Eddie, who doesn't understand why people don't just do the right thing, but he hasn't really made decisions worth discussing so I brought up James as a more interesting example.
I believe that James (and all characters) are acting strongly on their values. James values other people's opinions of him, and that drives nearly all of his decisions so far:

“I am glad to report, however, that I foresaw the possibility of such a turn of events and took every precaution to protect the interests of Taggart Transcontinental. Some months ago, I instructed our Operating Department to cut the schedule on the San Sebastián Line down to a single train a day, and to remove from it our best motive power and rolling stock, as well as every piece of equipment that could be moved. The Mexican government was able to seize nothing but a few wooden cars and one superannuated locomotive. My decision has saved the company many millions of dollars—I shall have the exact figures computed and submit them to you. I do feel, however, that our stockholders will be justified in expecting that those who bore the major responsibility for this venture should now bear the consequences of their negligence. I would suggest, therefore, that we request the resignation of Mr. Clarence Eddington, our economic consultant, who recommended the construction of the San Sebastián Line, and of Mr. Jules Mott, our representative in Mexico City.”
He takes no accountability for his actions because he doesn't want people to think less of him. That's why he fobs off responsibility, gets upset when he is forced to take responsibility, and blames others when he fails at his task.

Later in Ch4, he gets annoyed that d'Anconia won't meet him and we can only imagine his ego is heavily bruised when he's told that d'Anconia is bored by Taggart.

I don't think this is narrowly focused in Atlas Shrugged. I believe that our values is what drives all of us to make all of our decisions. That's why all my values are listed on my LinkedIn, any jobs I post, are laid out before any partners who approach me, etc.

It was the major lesson I took from Atlas Shrugged, and think it comes through loud and clear right in Ch 1-4 from all characters.

This is such a strong lesson that I have taken from AS, that when my kid's child care facility was involved in a sexual assault scandal, I enumerated what I knew to be true about that company's values. Then when they told me "it would never happen again", I evaluated their values to assess if I could believe that. I didn't, and we cancelled our membership.
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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Not strictly related to ch3&4 but...

Rereading this book is having a peculiar effect on me now that I actually run a small business.

I'm giving contractors and suppliers one word answers, making decisions instantaneously, pushing dates forward on goals, and being almost a little too abrupt with people who intrude on my work.

I better slow my roll a bit. :D
I put a like on this but it deserves love. This is really cool. I don’t think you should slow it at all! I’ve been reading Straight-Line Leadership by Dusan Djukich and seeing that type of A—>B problem solving “lived”out by these characters is unbelievably fascinating.

It’s sad as well in a way. It makes me realize how very few ppl in my life operate with clear goals. I think this is also why talking to certain ppl on this forum (ESPECIALLY when they’re being serious) feels foreign to me and is so intimidating to many.

I’m not gonna tag them but off the top of my head I can think of at least four members here who, when I first started reading their posts, sounded INCREDIBLY robotic or Spock ish? It fascinates me still. It’s like I’m getting a glimpse into a mind that I can’t connect with at all but because I want to connect (I wanna join the party!! I’m a party person!) I have to change to grasp their train of thought. I’m so thankful for this forum.. it’s a gift.

I’m really glad we’re all reading this book together and bouncing ideas and sharing. Now stop reading ahead!! I’m genuinely worried I’ll be the only one guessing about stuff soon and that would suuuuuuuck.
 

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I think Rand had a lot of fun naming the "Anti Dog-Eat-Dog Rule". It's very tongue-in-cheek, since the rule itself is Dog-Eat-Dog! When two railroad companies serve the same line, they're not hurting each other through viscous competition, they're helping each other by making the destinations even richer for everyone involved. It's like Dagny said, even if she didn't transport Wyatt's oil directly, there were towns popping up that could use the extra throughput. Of course, by forcing Dan to close that not only hurts Dan's company it hurts Taggart Transcontinental as well.

Why is Jim happy about it then? I'm guessing it's because it's partly because he has limiting beliefs and a scarcity mindset. He thinks there's only room for one railroad, so it might as well be Taggart. I also sense he resents Dan for being so successful. Maybe he thinks he put him in his place.

I read the Bernie Sanders discussion earlier in this thread. Anyone else feel like part of the mainstream narrative is about punishing the rich and successful?
 

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I read the Bernie Sanders discussion earlier in this thread. Anyone else feel like part of the mainstream narrative is about punishing the rich and successful?
Scrabbling around in the dirt doesn't look too bad, if everyone else is doing it too. At least, that's how some people think...
 

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Let's talk about some real-life examples that are happening now - on top of my head I thought of the 5G technology. This technology would completely change the world and accelerate the advancement of various technological fields. I know it's kind of a sensitive issue because we're talking about China, but imagine the impact it would have if everything goes smoothly?

Some countries are trying to sabotage the deployment of the technology because they wanted to protect their own self-interests, and their claims that the technology is harmful and is a security threat have so far been unproven. I'm keeping my fingers crossed to see how things would turn up.

I'm also pretty sure such scenarios have happened in other fields as well:
- a highly effective and almost free treatment of a disease is sealed away by pharmaceutical companies

- Oil companies / power plants sabotage the development of clean energy so they could continue to profit from their existing ways

- Thomas Edison tried to persuade the public that Nikola Tesla’s Alternate Current is dangerous by electrocuting an elephant to prove his point (this really happened, and thank God he didn’t get his way, otherwise our only choice would be Direct Current, which is much less effective)



P/s: These are just my point of view and I’m bringing them up to see what you guys think. So if you disagree with me please share your point of view
 

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@csalvato and @BizyDad

My sense is that you guys are talking past each other because you are using completely different definitions of "values."

@csalvato is using "values" to mean that which a person regards as important (or something roughly like that). Using that definition, Dagny (and everyone else in the world) makes decisions based on values.

@BizyDad is using "values" much more narrowly to mean "supposedly other-centered social niceness" (or something roughly like that). In that sense, Dagny is NOT making decisions based on values. But James Taggart is.
 

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@csalvato and @BizyDad

My sense is that you guys are talking past each other because you are using completely different definitions of "values."

@csalvato is using "values" to mean that which a person regards as important (or something roughly like that). Using that definition, Dagny (and everyone else in the world) makes decisions based on values.

@BizyDad is using "values" much more narrowly to mean "supposedly other-centered social niceness" (or something roughly like that). In that sense, Dagny is NOT making decisions based on values. But James Taggart is.
Interesting. Good point and catch. I probably missed it because that’s not the definition of “values” strictly speaking.

Re-reading @BizyDad’s posts, that makes sense
 

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lludwig

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I read the Bernie Sanders discussion earlier in this thread. Anyone else feel like part of the mainstream narrative is about punishing the rich and successful?
That's because it is. It's about how you (the rich) must sacrifice to help the poor. You must be altruistic to help the "greater good" (whatever that means).

The "greater good" is an amorphous term that can mean anything you want. What you might think of the "greater good" might be something different to someone else.

Ironically Bernie rails on the "1%" in the USA. But if he were to look globally he himself is in the 1% of all wealth. This relativism is how they stake claims against others production.
 
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@BizyDad is using "values" much more narrowly to mean "supposedly other-centered social niceness" (or something roughly like that). In that sense, Dagny is NOT making decisions based on values. But James Taggart is
This also raises a philosophical question: are values moral only if they consider and highly regard other people?
 

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This also raises a philosophical question: are values moral only if they consider and highly regard other people?
Ha, ha. Isn't this essentially THE core question the book raises? I have my thoughts, but can't develop them right now.
 

SamRussell

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Ha, ha. Isn't this essentially THE core question the book raises? I have my thoughts, but can't develop them right now.
I'm not sure if it's THE core question, but it's definitely one of them!
 

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