Are all online coaches scammers?

[John Clancy]

Definitely not ALL, but I would say a LOT. I paid well into 5 figures for different coachings. Some of them were total scams, some were OK, and some of them were amazing and changed my life.

This article is pretty on-point. I wish I've read it sooner: 12 Warning Signs Of A Coaching & Mentoring Service To Avoid

Just an idea - if you're up for it, why not write a thread where you dissect the best and worst course purchases you made, what made them so good or bad, and what you've learned from the process?

Could be a valuable learning experience for you - and be very helpful for other people at a crossroads too.

 

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[anubistar]

It depends. After interviewing a lot of these gurus and buying a lot of info products myself, as a rule of thumb I would recommend to stay away from everything that is pushed by ads and PPC.

The truth is:

This online coaching niche is a numbers game.

If there is no regulation these people get away with a lot of low-quality stuff because the numbers work for them.

Definately agree with you on this one. For the last couple of years I've been purchasing them... it's generally good for a beginner with the foundations but most of it suck to be honest. Most you can find online.

 

[suhje]

* If they have profitable business themself, why they want to bring others to space, teach them a "secret" and make a competition for themself... For example, someone teaching about how to make 6 figures e-commerce, instead of building another one for themself (they can outsource almost everything).
...Or for example, someone teaching how to sell websites to the companies charging 20k per website... while they can build a software company, scale it, make a brand, hire people and step out of the process and still get a lot of money (Fastlane).
...Why to put the effort into building a course, mentoring people instead of scaling a company? - and this mentoring thing is more like a job because a mentor has to spend time with mentees and once the mentees know a thing they are gone and do it by themself - no money for the coach anymore.

This is the accurate reasoning. The guys selling coaching/get rich schemes make a great percentage of their income by doing this. Otherwise they wouldn't do it. A lot of the information they offer tend to be either very general and or vague.

I know a guy that sells E-commerce courses and this makes up 2/3 of his income. That should speak for itself

 

[Andy Black]

I’m curious.

I provide Google Ads consulting for clients. I do the coal-face work, the sales chats, and the client management.

I’m happy with the revenue coming in from that and have no desire to hire in people to do the coal-face work (aka grow an agency). I don’t want to 2x never mind 10x my number of clients.

If I sell a course on how to run Google Ads campaigns does that mean I no longer have the ability to do the work? I mean, those that teach are those that can’t do the work right?

Should I also keep the revenue I make from selling courses lower than my consulting revenue? That would be a shame because I could help a lot of people get to grips with Google Ads.

 

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[Raoul Duke]

I’m curious.

I provide Google Ads consulting for clients. I do the coal-face work, the sales chats, and the client management.

I’m happy with the revenue coming in from that and have no desire to hire in people to do the coal-face work (aka grow an agency). I don’t want to 2x never mind 10x my number of clients.

If I sell a course on how to run Google Ads campaigns, and add modules on how to acquire and manage Google Ads consulting clients, does that mean I no longer have the ability to manage my consulting clients? I mean, those that can’t do the work are those that teach right?

Should I also keep the revenue I make from selling courses lower than my consulting revenue?

Damn you scammer! Wannabe GURU.

 

[Odysseus M Jones]

A bi curious guru coalminer, hmmm
That'll outdo Valier
I'll be your stylist for a cut of the action

 

[Andy Black]

Damn you scammer! Wannabe GURU.

Ha. Thanks.

Look. I’m being deliberately facetious to show folks what it can look like from the viewpoint of a producer.

Bear in kind:

1) It’s hard producing a course.

2) Some people genuinely like helping people.

3) Some people genuinely like teaching.

4) Some people don’t want to build big overheads or headcount.

5) Some people like being practitioners.


Sure, there’s charlatans out there, but I think it’s a case of buyer beware. Do your due diligence, and don’t tar everyone with the same brush.

 

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[biophase]

* If they have profitable business themself, why they want to bring others to space, teach them a "secret" and make a competition for themself... For example, someone teaching about how to make 6 figures e-commerce, instead of building another one for themself (they can outsource almost everything).

So, to make a summary... why if some coach out there which does not want to be perceived as a scammer, will not put an amazing value proposition with a money-back guarantee for their mentees. And as I said above, you can always find a way how to track the progress of people, IT IS A MENTORING AFTER ALL... think about the milestones similar to UPWORK, there is a way for sure to filter out people who do not want to work (no money back guarantee for them).

...BUT if there is not a money-back guarantee, actually not guarantee at all, then I think it screams a SCAM. They should sell the CRASH COURSE TO COPYWRITING or SALES 101 instead... not mentioning any money at all.

So I just wanted to respond to these statements and give you the perspective from the other side.

I have 3-4 ecommerce businesses and at some point, you just don't want to build another business. Been there done that. I mean, how many shopify stores do you expect a person to manage? Let's say I put 1 employee in place to manage 4 shopify stores. Now what? Should I start another one? Or maybe I'd rather just start showing people how to do what I do?

On your next question about guarantees, the reason there are no guarantees is because we don't have control of the client's actions. If you were a personal trainer, could you guarantee your client that he will have six pack abs in 6 months? What if he just wanted to eat pizza everyday? Then what do you do?

I can show you and tell you to do things, but if you don't do them, should you get your money back? How about if I mentor you for $8k and you don't do things that I tell you to do, them you pay $8k more because you've wasted my time. Would you take that deal?

In my past mentoring, I have had some clients never call in after the 4th week. They just disappeared.
My mentoring class was between 5-10 clients for 6 months. Some succeeded and some did not. I actually feel very bad when my clients don't succeed. I had about 50% success rate. But they all got the exact same information. So why the difference in results?

It is because each client chose different products, they all had different budgets, some worked harder than others, some had personal issues come up and sometimes it was just bad luck. So how can I as a mentor guarantee anything will all these variables?

Here's the thing, I don't need to convince you that it is not a SCAM. In fact, I didn't accept anyone that asked for a guarantee. This is because I already know that their mindset is not correct. They aren't 100% committed to the process because their first thought it worrying about losing their money. Remember, I have to talk to you for 6 months if I accept you. So I don't want to be talking to someone that is thinking that I might be scamming them.

My friend had someone pay him $10k for mentoring. After their first call, my friend gave him his $10k back and said, this wasn't a good fit.

And I'll leave you with this story. Someone on the forum that took my early mentoring for $5k. I let that person pay me $2500 the first month and $2500 the second month. Well, he paid me only $2500 for one month and then said he didn't need more mentoring. Two years later I met him at the summit meetup. His business was doing really well. I told him, "hey, you never paid me the $2500. Just a word of advice, you should always honor you commitments." I wasn't sure if I should bring it up, but I figured it would be a good lesson for him. He apologized and he didn't realize that he never paid me. I told him I didn't want the $2500 but gave him the name of a dog rescue and said you can donate the money to this rescue if you want. A few weeks later the dog rescue got the donation, which was really cool.

 

[Walter Hay]

Thanks @biophase. What you have written clearly establishes that offering guarantees would be folly because the mentor cannot control the actions of the person paying for the course.

It also puts paid to the often repeated but totally false statement: "Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach."

With the vast pool of knowledge accessible via the internet, another partly true statement is often thrown in: "You can find it all on the internet." Yes, possibly all the information needed to start and operate a business is there somewhere, BUT...

To assemble from Google searches all the knowledge that you have accumulated through years of practical, been there done that experience would take years if it is to be put together in a way that is as fail-safe as paying a genuine mentor to guide the process.

So many people want something for nothing, and when they can't get it they complain about how unfair it is that they have to pay.

Walter

 

[Kid]

Do you know why gurus sell high price ticket courses?
Those one-on-one for $6-14k?

Because those $40 ebooks stopped selling.
Some time ago you might pull 7 figures with enough hype
just by pushing those.

People got disillusioned and very little people believe you can become
millionaire by buying book for a price of two coffees.

So what those poor gurus do? Yep, they found another market to scam:
Someone who has $10k and believes it can turn him into millionaire over weekend.

P.S. Didn't read whole thread, maybe someone mentioned it already.

Edit: reading what Bio said, maybe there are coaches that actually do know what they talk about. Yet, they might be like needle in a haystack.

 

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[Walter Hay]

Edit: reading what Bio said, maybe there are coaches that actually do know what they talk about. Yet, they might be like needle in a haystack.

Leave out the "maybe" and your post will have more credibility.

Walter

 

[drahz]

So I just wanted to respond to these statements and give you the perspective from the other side.

I have 3-4 ecommerce businesses and at some point, you just don't want to build another business. Been there done that. I mean, how many shopify stores do you expect a person to manage? Let's say I put 1 employee in place to manage 4 shopify stores. Now what? Should I start another one? Or maybe I'd rather just start showing people how to do what I do?

Thanks for sharing. I said earlier that I do not think that everybody is a scammer... but these days, with all the gurus out there... one should be very skeptical about the person who wants to teach them how to get rich, especially if they do not know the teacher personally.

I do not know very much about coaching... but one thing which I do not really understand...

there is not much value in anything which is very abundant... for example if I know how to make gold in my kitchen... would it make sense to teach others how to make gold?
If I own Coca Cola company... would I make more money just selling the stuff... or teach others about the recipe? If I have a very successful algorithm for the stock market... would it make more sense to use it... or teach it to others?

If someone says... that their teaching is a calling (their passion) and they do not need more money and yet asking for a lot of money, approaching first with an advertisement, with no refund... not stating that money is going to their favorite charity or something... IT IS NOT NECESSARILY A SCAM but one should be careful.

On your next question about guarantees, the reason there are no guarantees is because we don't have control of the client's actions. If you were a personal trainer, could you guarantee your client that he will have six pack abs in 6 months? What if he just wanted to eat pizza everyday? Then what do you do?

If someone gets a personal trainer, this trainer is not paid to magically give them six-pack... but to go to the gym with them and show them how to use a machine or make them a personalized diet plan. If they follow a diet and work out... they will get results for sure!

Somebody can say that this is the same for all coaches... for example, someone provides coaching services about e-commerce... they can help people to set the store... show them some tricks about how to choose a product, etc... but if a student is doing 100% what coach is telling them (and I mean 100%), would you say that they will surely get results? I would argue that in this particular case a student might not achieve results even if they are doing everything correctly and hustle hard. Because this is not science, there are a lot of factors that can have an impact on student's success.

And there is nothing wrong with that... but many coaches advertise their teachings as a sure way to succeed (and might have also a perfect excuse every time - student was not hustling enough)... I think SCAM is always only about false advertising.
As an extreme example... if a coach says in advertisement - Just give me 10k for my info course I put together within 30 minutes of surfing over the internet and that's it, do not even expect that I will talk to you personally -> this is NOT a SCAM (value is clearly communicated).

I can show you and tell you to do things, but if you don't do them, should you get your money back?

Back to false advertising... (extreme example again) let's say someone is teaching about how to be a farmer - they will put something like this in an advertisement:

"I will teach you how to be an amazing framer - how to grow crops, how to take care of cattle and everything... it is simple, everybody can do it and it is a sure way how to be self-sufficient about your food and also you will get rich by selling your goods."

Someone can see ads (not knowing anything about farming), they sign up. Later they will see that they have to work manually crazy hard... they need to spend money on buying machines, animals, etc... and they find out that weather has a massive impact on their yield.

Money-back is protection against false advertising.

How about if I mentor you for $8k and you don't do things that I tell you to do, them you pay $8k more because you've wasted my time. Would you take that deal?

This might be such an AMAZING deal if a student approached someone crazy successful who is not interested in mentoring but will do a favor for a student. If an unknown mentor is approaching first (e.g. with an ad), then it would make more sense to not put whole burden on a student (pay and if you do not work... pay more... if you work and get no results... no refund policy).

In my past mentoring, I have had some clients never call in after the 4th week. They just disappeared.
My mentoring class was between 5-10 clients for 6 months. Some succeeded and some did not. I actually feel very bad when my clients don't succeed. I had about 50% success rate. But they all got the exact same information. So why the difference in results?

It is because each client chose different products, they all had different budgets, some worked harder than others, some had personal issues come up and sometimes it was just bad luck. So how can I as a mentor guarantee anything will all these variables?

You as a mentor can guarantee only money-back, not results. But if a mentor sells the product and the student will not work - the student will not get results (receive value). If the student works but not get results (the student will not receive value). If the student works and gets results (the student will receive value). In all three cases, the mentor already received value (money).

Here's the thing, I don't need to convince you that it is not a SCAM. In fact, I didn't accept anyone that asked for a guarantee. This is because I already know that their mindset is not correct. They aren't 100% committed to the process because their first thought it worrying about losing their money. Remember, I have to talk to you for 6 months if I accept you. So I don't want to be talking to someone that is thinking that I might be scamming them.

Would you say that if someone has a correct mindset and is 100% committed, it is enough to get good results and success? If not... then they might be legitimately worried about losing their money. (I am NOT talking about your course - I do not know anything about it... this is just very abstract thinking)

My friend had someone pay him $10k for mentoring. After their first call, my friend gave him his $10k back and said, this wasn't a good fit.

Your friend is most likely NOT a scammer.

And I'll leave you with this story. Someone on the forum that took my early mentoring for $5k. I let that person pay me $2500 the first month and $2500 the second month. Well, he paid me only $2500 for one month and then said he didn't need more mentoring. Two years later I met him at the summit meetup. His business was doing really well. I told him, "hey, you never paid me the $2500. Just a word of advice, you should always honor you commitments." I wasn't sure if I should bring it up, but I figured it would be a good lesson for him. He apologized and he didn't realize that he never paid me. I told him I didn't want the $2500 but gave him the name of a dog rescue and said you can donate the money to this rescue if you want. A few weeks later the dog rescue got the donation, which was really cool.

Well... mentees can steal and lie as well.

 

[Andy Black]

It also puts paid to the often repeated but totally false statement: "Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach."

I don’t like that statement either. It smacks of sour grapes on the part of those that can’t teach, or at least an ignorance of how difficult teaching is. Teaching is a whole other skill, and I have the greatest respect for those that can teach others and do so with enthusiasm.

 

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[biophase]

for example if I know how to make gold in my kitchen... would it make sense to teach others how to make gold?

I think this is where you are getting it wrong. I would not teach you how to make gold, I would teach you how to make silver.

Let's say I know how to make every element on earth, so I make platinum, then gold and then silver. Then I would launch a course on how to make copper.

If someone gets a personal trainer, this trainer is not paid to magically give them six-pack... but to go to the gym with them and show them how to use a machine or make them a personalized diet plan. If they follow a diet and work out... they will get results for sure!

Exactly, but what if they don't follow the diet or work out. Then what happens? How do you structure a money back guarantee if you are a trainer?

Somebody can say that this is the same for all coaches... for example, someone provides coaching services about e-commerce... they can help people to set the store... show them some tricks about how to choose a product, etc... but if a student is doing 100% what coach is telling them (and I mean 100%), would you say that they will surely get results? I would argue that in this particular case a student might not achieve results even if they are doing everything correctly and hustle hard. Because this is not science, there are a lot of factors that can have an impact on student's success.

Correct, someone can follow all the exact steps are not be successful. Alot of stuff can happen. A competitor can launch a better product before you do. Corona virus can happen and your awesome suitcase is just not needed.

Back to false advertising... (extreme example again) let's say someone is teaching about how to be a farmer - they will put something like this in an advertisement:

"I will teach you how to be an amazing framer - how to grow crops, how to take care of cattle and everything... it is simple, everybody can do it and it is a sure way how to be self-sufficient about your food and also you will get rich by selling your goods."

So in your opinion, this ad would have been great if they didn't put in the last 10 words, "and also you will get rich by selling your goods"?

You as a mentor can guarantee only money-back, not results.
1 But if a mentor sells the product and the student will not work - the student will not get results (receive value).
2 If the student works but not get results (the student will not receive value).
3 If the student works and gets results (the student will receive value).
In all three cases, the mentor already received value (money).

In all 3 cases, the mentor receives money (value) as you put it. But why should I not receive value (give a refund) in case #2 if I have already given the student my knowledge? I think this is because you are assuming that the information was wrong, which is why the student put in the work and did not receive results.

 

[biophase]

if the coaches out there really stand for what they are teaching their value proposition should be...

I will personally mentor you for 1 year and I know my stats -> 75% of people following my teachings can get at least $1000 / month in 6 months ->

If you follow my process (and YOU CAN PROVE IT by giving me reports every week or month or something) and you do not achieve the results I am saying you will achieve, then I will give you all your money back - that is my guarantee.

So I went back to your original post because I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.

Here is the real problem with this process. Let's say that I know that lamp shades will be a hot product in the next year. So I launch this with the exact guarantee as you mention above.

I get 50 clients and I tell them all, sell lampshades. Now, all my clients are competing against each other. Would you sign up for a course like that? How many of the 50 do you think would be successful? Remember all 50 clients are getting the exact same information.

However, one client might call their business lampshadesrus, and another lampsandstuff and another shittylampshades. Well, guess which one might not do so well. One might build a neon pink website with yellow lettering against my recommendations.

If everyone followed my exact process we would end up with 50 websites looking exactly the same, same font, same color, etc... Is that what you really want to learn? Something with no personal input from you?

The point is that the information is the same, you get the overall knowledge and guidance, but ultimately you control where you end up. You can't say, "I want my mentor to choose my product, my URL, my logo and my colors and my text." If that's what you want, then be prepared to see 100 copies of your website online.

 

[drahz]

So in your opinion, this ad would have been great if they didn't put in the last 10 words, "and also you will get rich by selling your goods"?

No, the problem is in the "it is simple, everybody can do it and it is a sure way ..." - it is not simple... not everybody can do it and nothing there is for sure.
Also, not everything is said there...

Let's say I know how to make every element on earth, so I make platinum, then gold and then silver. Then I would launch a course on how to make copper.

Year, then everybody would be making copper... but guess what would be the value of the copper then.

I get 50 clients and I tell them all, sell lampshades. Now, all my clients are competing against each other. Would you sign up for a course like that? How many of the 50 do you think would be successful? Remember all 50 clients are getting the exact same information.

However, one client might call their business lampshadesrus, and another lampsandstuff and another shittylampshades. Well, guess which one might not do so well. One might build a neon pink website with yellow lettering against my recommendations.

If everyone followed my exact process we would end up with 50 websites looking exactly the same, same font, same color, etc... Is that what you really want to learn? Something with no personal input from you?

The point is that the information is the same, you get the overall knowledge and guidance, but ultimately you control where you end up. You can't say, "I want my mentor to choose my product, my URL, my logo and my colors and my text." If that's what you want, then be prepared to see 100 copies of your website online.

No, it is absolutely not what I meant... I would say it is the exact opposite. What I tried to say is... the whole success is in the person, how smart they are, what is their prior knowledge, etc. So the mentor might be just someone for consultation.

The problem is... wast majority of coaching out there is advertised as a sure way to success for EVERYBODY... and only the mentor's knowledge, teaching and supervising is required.

Why an advertisement for coaching is mostly selling a dream... and it is not structured like this... (extreme example again) if your IQ is below 100 -> not allowed to my mentoring... if you do not have prior knowledge about ... -> your chance to succeed is reduced by 60% ... etc.

 

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[biophase]

The problem is... wast majority of coaching out there is advertised as a sure way to success for EVERYBODY... and only the mentor's knowledge, teaching and supervising is required.

Ok, so your main issue is that the advertisements say that anyone can do it and make it sound easy.

I would say that easy is subjective, what I think is easy, you might think is hard. Personally, I think ecommerce is easy. So would that be false advertising then?

What is ironic is that if I said it was super hard and that I would only take clients that passed a rigorous test, I might actually get more sign ups.

 

[Antti]

I think it also depends a lot on the business model. For example, if you want to start building websites or maybe you want to learn to use Facebook Ads and work as a consultant, then if you have a good teacher, if you work hard and if there is good demand for the service/skill in question, then it can be almost guaranteed that you get some kind of traction.

But something like eCommerce is quite different. It is more like metaphorically speaking the teacher will teach you how to fish, he will teach you what kind of techniques and equipment to use and what are the characteristics of a good place to fish. But he will not show you he's own favourite spots. You will have to go and find your own spot where you can just reel in fish after fish. And that can be a long and challenging search even if you had a great teacher.

 

[Wil22]

So I just wanted to respond to these statements and give you the perspective from the other side.

I have 3-4 ecommerce businesses and at some point, you just don't want to build another business. Been there done that. I mean, how many shopify stores do you expect a person to manage? Let's say I put 1 employee in place to manage 4 shopify stores. Now what? Should I start another one? Or maybe I'd rather just start showing people how to do what I do?

On your next question about guarantees, the reason there are no guarantees is because we don't have control of the client's actions. If you were a personal trainer, could you guarantee your client that he will have six pack abs in 6 months? What if he just wanted to eat pizza everyday? Then what do you do?

I can show you and tell you to do things, but if you don't do them, should you get your money back? How about if I mentor you for $8k and you don't do things that I tell you to do, them you pay $8k more because you've wasted my time. Would you take that deal?

In my past mentoring, I have had some clients never call in after the 4th week. They just disappeared.
My mentoring class was between 5-10 clients for 6 months. Some succeeded and some did not. I actually feel very bad when my clients don't succeed. I had about 50% success rate. But they all got the exact same information. So why the difference in results?

It is because each client chose different products, they all had different budgets, some worked harder than others, some had personal issues come up and sometimes it was just bad luck. So how can I as a mentor guarantee anything will all these variables?

Here's the thing, I don't need to convince you that it is not a SCAM. In fact, I didn't accept anyone that asked for a guarantee. This is because I already know that their mindset is not correct. They aren't 100% committed to the process because their first thought it worrying about losing their money. Remember, I have to talk to you for 6 months if I accept you. So I don't want to be talking to someone that is thinking that I might be scamming them.

My friend had someone pay him $10k for mentoring. After their first call, my friend gave him his $10k back and said, this wasn't a good fit.

And I'll leave you with this story. Someone on the forum that took my early mentoring for $5k. I let that person pay me $2500 the first month and $2500 the second month. Well, he paid me only $2500 for one month and then said he didn't need more mentoring. Two years later I met him at the summit meetup. His business was doing really well. I told him, "hey, you never paid me the $2500. Just a word of advice, you should always honor you commitments." I wasn't sure if I should bring it up, but I figured it would be a good lesson for him. He apologized and he didn't realize that he never paid me. I told him I didn't want the $2500 but gave him the name of a dog rescue and said you can donate the money to this rescue if you want. A few weeks later the dog rescue got the donation, which was really cool.

Good history behind coaching/mentoring. A few years back, I was a sales trainer. my contract said I will increase sales (gross) by X percentage. If I fail, you pay nothing. However, I did however have hire/fire control. Even then, management botched the system by not implementing even though that prevention is included in the contact. In the end, I was pulled in so many directions I ended the contract. Is it "fair" or "ethical" to continue to charge when the client participant doesn't do the work? Ultimately, total control as a consultant remains outside of our control. For consulting, I use a behavioral assessment to measure soft skills like motivation, learning, focus (as a few) to make sure I am getting someone who is motivated and willing do the work recommended.

 

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