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A Conversation about death...

andyhaus44

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My wife would always get a nice surprise when she opened up a new tab on my laptop. She did not appreciate it either.

Not for everyone!
I can totally relate to this. Thought about using it but I like the 'Momentum' tab too much, plus there is an app called 'WeCroak', which I just started using.
 
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andyhaus44

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The expectation vs reality isn't glamorous now, but we're not talking about now. We're talking about tomorrow, and tomorrow might mean 50 years or it might mean 10. Either way our capabilities will be drastically different from what they are today.

The mind doesn't have an expiry date. You don't reach X days old and then you die. It's a result of age-related degenerative illnesses. So the solution has more to do with curing old illnesses (which seems to be happening more and more frequently these days). The problem is that many research programs are underfunded because nobody cares because they believe that death is inevitable.

Currently there's no magic pill that you know of, and even if there isn't, it doesn't mean someone won't invent one tomorrow.

Spending time in nursing homes won't change my perspective. I've already been down the path of believing death was the only option. I challenged myself and my beliefs and what I discovered was a world of possibility that less than the 1% are aware of.

Anyway, this is the last of my responses because we'll only get more derailed from here. If you want to take a day and explore other positions, WaitButWhy.com is a good place to start.

WaitButWhy.com
Lex, thank you for mentioning whybutwait.com (never heard of it). I was on there for just a couple of minutes and stumbled upon a really cool concept, which is how you get 100 10 minute blocks everyday --

https://waitbutwhy.com/2016/10/100-blocks-day.html
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsurIrXGPps

Here is a cool online tracker of using your 100 10 minute blocks -
144blocks | Track your day in 10-minute intervals of time
 
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Tourmaline

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@Lex DeVille The difficult question is indeed how long people should live for.

The reason they must die is for adaptation and change to take place for the better. The old tend to get set in a way. The new tend to create new ways.

Death is a part of nature because it is essential for adapatation and evolution of nature.

On a different note, death makes time have value. If we lived forever, every year and thus every day would have very little value. It would be unlimited, and rarely does something that has no element of scarcity have much value. Even 1000 years would greatly diminish the value of time.

If you consider both that the old must die for change to take place and that death is required for time to have value, then you will start to find some answer to 'how long people should live for'. To me it seems like more than 200 years is likely too long. 100 years is a long time as it is, at least at the current rate at which technology and ideas progress.

I see death not as a tragedy, but as a part of nature, that makes the experience of living and each life have far more value in and of itself.
 

MHP368

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Interesting anecdote (late to the thread)

The first skilled nursing facility (nursing home) I worked at had a respiratory / ventilator unit. Round the clock on staff respiratory therapist suctioning mucous from throat tracheas and doing breathing treatments.

I naively presumed that most of my clients before seeing the floor , would be long term smokers. Wrong. Over half were morbidly obese , the diaphragm (the muscle primarily concerned with breathing) just wasnt having it anymore.

Mj's insight into this as addiction is insightful (and hopefully compassion inducing) , these folks (a lot of them) had loving family members , but they were bed bound and couldnt wipe their own butts! That means long before hospitalization these family members were doing things like changing adult diapers but continuing to feed these folks excess calories!

Codependance anyone?
 
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Lex DeVille

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@Lex DeVille The difficult question is indeed how long people should live for.

The reason they must die is for adaptation and change to take place for the better. The old tend to get set in a way. The new tend to create new ways.

Death is a part of nature because it is essential for adapatation and evolution of nature.

On a different note, death makes time have value. If we lived forever, every year and thus every day would have very little value. It would be unlimited, and rarely does something that has no element of scarcity have much value. Even 1000 years would greatly diminish the value of time.

If you consider both that the old must die for change to take place and that death is required for time to have value, then you will start to find some answer to 'how long people should live for'. To me it seems like more than 200 years is likely too long. 100 years is a long time as it is, at least at the current rate at which technology and ideas progress.

I see death not as a tragedy, but as a part of nature, that makes the experience of living and each life have far more value in and of itself.


I'm not open to arguing these points with anyone who hasn't done their homework and presents arguments based on beliefs. Instead, I will refer you to the above video with one of many actual experts working on problems like this who can present a credible perspective.
 

Tourmaline

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I'm not open to arguing these points with anyone who hasn't done their homework and presents arguments based on beliefs. Instead, I will refer you to the above video with one of many actual experts working on problems like this who can present a credible perspective.

I appreciate the link and will watch the entire thing. It seems to be looking at the biology of it, and not the sociological impact of not aging.

I have zero doubt that one day people will only die when they choose to or are forced to. It is only a matter of time and of sufficient technology.

That however leaves all the imporant questions faced by society still unanswered.

Do you happen to have someone you like that addresses such questions?
 

Lex DeVille

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I appreciate the link and will watch the entire thing. It seems to be looking at the biology of it, and not the sociological impact of not aging.

I have zero doubt that one day people will only die when they choose to or are forced to. It is only a matter of time and of sufficient technology.

That however leaves all the imporant questions faced by society still unanswered.

Do you happen to have someone you like that addresses such questions?

Dr. Aubrey de Grey is probably the one who talks most about questions such as those in your post. Several of your questions are answered in the video with Dr. Sinclair as well. Although he is a geneticist, he specifically discusses issues of evolution and nature if I recall correctly. It was only posted a few days ago so it's pretty new.
 
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Tourmaline

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Awesome, I'll check him out as well. Always fun to have my brain tickled, thanks.
 

amp0193

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The reason they must die is for adaptation and change to take place for the better. The old tend to get set in a way. The new tend to create new ways.

The counterpoint is that change isn't always for the better.

History may be slower to repeat itself if humans lived twice as long.


I do agree with your thought of death giving more value to time, and think that's one of the more positive aspects of death. If not more value, it certainly adds urgency to our day to day.
 
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Real Deal Denver

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Interesting, but very sad, thread.

I'm only throwing a few nuggets for thought out there because I am obligated to do so. My religious beliefs require me to take a stand and be a witness. So here goes.

No, this isn't going to be quoting anything religious. Surprised? Well, hold on.

First of all, I am amazed at the people I've met in my life that have not taken any time to research ANY religion. They make a sweeping judgment based on something such as the Church abusing children. Or the tooth fairy. Whatever - pick your excuse. So they sign off on all religion. How convenient. A ready-made excuse for you; just add water and stir. Whatever you pick, know this; you will be formulating your opinion on man-made things or events. Keep God and whatever man has done separated in your analysis.

Now, consider this. If someone doesn't believe there is a God, and there isn't one, what have they lost after they die? Nothing. On the other hand, what if they don't believe, and there actually IS a God in Heaven? What have they lost now? Everything. So perhaps you have everything to gain and nothing to lose - and that, in my book, is a no-lose bet. Since we MAY be talking about your existence after death, that alone should be worth some research, right? If that's not important, well then, I can't help you - but at least I throw that out there so maybe it will slowly sink in over time and you will take time someday to research something that just MIGHT be important.

Secondly, although there are thousands of modern books on the market that will address anything you want to, let's bypass that and go right to a source that IS mutually respected (looking at you Lex). Einstein. Don't even have to say his full name, do I? What did he say about God and/or life after death? Google it, if it matters.

Let's go to another source - the many people that have clinically died and returned with amazing stories. No, it wasn't due to some chemical function in their brains that made them THINK they went to heaven. They came back with names and facts that could only have been discovered IF they had actually met people in heaven. Google that too - if it matters. It's happened more than once - there are books and movies made about it. Could it be true? How sure are you?

And one final little thing to chew on, which is a personal favorite of mine. I have always pondered how the earth can stay on its precise orbit around the sun. I would think that one small imperfection would be so cumulative over the billions of years that it would cause us to drift off into space and freeze - or be pulled into the sun and fry. But no, we stay on the same path which is ideal in order to maintain the delicate balance of life we have. Add to this that we are spinning as we go, and the moon is revolving around us at the same time. Kind of mind-boggling don't you think? And let's add in that handy ozone layer that keeps us from frying from radiation. One of my atheist friends researched this further and discovered that our entire solar system is ALSO traveling in an outward direction, as the universe continues to expand. These are proven scientific FACTS people. You do the math on how this is all possible - it's way beyond me. I pointed out that the added dimension of our solar system expanding outwards at the same time as everything else was even MORE proof that some power wayyy beyond our understanding is indeed in control. That did not alter his non-belief, which didn't surprise me for some reason. He wants facts - he gets facts - but nothing changes. Sad.

And so it goes. Nothing will be proof enough to someone that has their mind made up. But I still offer these few things to think about. For those that can pry open the rusty hinges of their closed minds, they might be surprised to also learn about the differences in religions. But most won't do that much, even though Google can make it so easy for them.

If there is any chance you might think you know so much, but you could be wrong, then perhaps it might be wise to research things a bit more. Maybe even buy a book? I recommend Max Lucado, as he writes in an easy style and is thought-provoking. Another book that was made into a movie is called "The Case for Christ." This is about a reporter that is SICK of his wife being so religious, so he undertakes a journey to disprove her religious beliefs. In the end, he ends up quitting his career as a reporter and becomes a minister. He spent years on his quest and was very skilled as an investigative reporter. There may be something of value in his quest that you can learn from? Buy the book, if it matters at all. Or not - after all, what does eternity matter anyway? I assure you that something/someone wants you TO think that way, and they are not your friend. LOL. Google that too. You might learn a lot, if you try.

If I've pushed a button or two in your consciousness; then that's good. I'm not coddling you or preaching. Do want you want to do - and if you really think you're smart enough to have it figured out, then ignore all of this and please take over where Einstein left off.
 
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Lex DeVille

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Interesting, but very sad, thread.

I'm only throwing a few nuggets for thought out there because I am obligated to do so. My religious beliefs require me to take a stand and be a witness. So here goes.

No, this isn't going to be quoting anything religious. Surprised? Well, hold on.

First of all, I am amazed at the people I've met in my life that have not taken any time to research ANY religion. They make a sweeping judgment based on some menial event, such as the Church abusing children. Or the tooth fairy. Whatever - pick your excuse. So they sign off on all religion. How convenient. A ready-made excuse for you; just add water and stir.

But consider this. If someone doesn't believe there is a God, and there isn't one, what have they lost after they die? Nothing. On the other hand, what if they don't believe, and there actually IS a God in Heaven? What have they lost now? Everything. So perhaps you have everything to gain and nothing to lose - and that, in my book, is a no-lose bet That alone should be worth some research. If that's not important, well then, I can't help you - but at least I throw that out there so maybe it will slowly sink in over time and you will take time to research something that just MIGHT be important.

Secondly, although there are thousands of modern books on the market that will address anything you want to, let's bypass that and go right to a source that IS mutually respected (looking at you Lex). Einstein. Don't even have to say his full name, do I? What did he say about God and/or life after death? Google it if it matters.

Let's go to another source - the many people that have clinically died and returned with amazing stories. No, it wasn't due to some chemical function in their brains that made them THINK they went to heaven. They came back with names and facts that could only have been discovered IF they had actually met people in heaven. Google that too - if it matters. It's happened more than once - there are books and movies made about it. Could it be true? Are you willing to bet eternity on it?

And one final little thing to chew on, which is a personal favorite of mine. I have always pondered how the earth can stay on its precise orbit around the sun. I would think that one small imperfection would be so cumulative over the billions of years that it would cause us to drift off into space and freeze - or be pulled into the sun. But no, we stay on the same path which is perfect to maintain the delicate balance of life. Add to this that we are spinning as we go, and the moon is revolving around us at the same time. Kind of mind-boggling don't you think? One of my atheist friends researched this and discovered that our entire solar system is ALSO traveling in an outward direction, as the universe continues to expand. These are proven scientific FACTS people. You do the math on how this is all possible - it's way beyond me. I pointed out that this was even MORE proof that some power wayyy beyond our understanding is indeed in control. That did not alter his non-belief, which didn't surprise me.

And so it goes. Nothing will be proof enough to someone that has their mind made up. But I still offer these few things to think about. For those that can pry open the rusty hinges of their closed minds, they might be surprised to also learn about the differences in religions. But most won't do that much, even though Google can make it so easy for them.

If there is any chance you might think you know so much, but you could be wrong, then perhaps it might be wise to research things a bit more. Maybe even buy a book? I recommend Max Lucado, as he writes in a easy style and is thought-provoking. Or not - after all, what does eternity matter anyway? I assure you that something/someone wants you TO think that way, and they are not your friend. LOL. Google that too.

If I've pushed a button or two in your subconsciousness, then that's good. I'm not coddling you or preaching. Do want you want to do - and if you really think you're smart enough to have it figured out, please take over where Einstein left off.

Have you ever noticed how your posts tend to be you mentally masturbating yourself? Because it's obvious to the rest of us.
 

Tourmaline

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The counterpoint is that change isn't always for the better.

History may be slower to repeat itself if humans lived twice as long.


I do agree with your thought of death giving more value to time, and think that's one of the more positive aspects of death. It not more value, it certainly adds urgency to our day to day.

Overall change is for the better as technology, which includes societal technology, continues to get better. It is not a straight line up of course, but in order to get to that better form of everything requires having to let go of the old.

Interesting, but very sad, thread.

I'm only throwing a few nuggets for thought out there because I am obligated to do so. My religious beliefs require me to take a stand and be a witness. So here goes.

No, this isn't going to be quoting anything religious. Surprised? Well, hold on.

First of all, I am amazed at the people I've met in my life that have not taken any time to research ANY religion. They make a sweeping judgment based on something such as the Church abusing children. Or the tooth fairy. Whatever - pick your excuse. So they sign off on all religion. How convenient. A ready-made excuse for you; just add water and stir. Whatever you pick, know this; you will be formulating your opinion on man-made things or events. Keep God and whatever man has done separated in your analysis.

Now, consider this. If someone doesn't believe there is a God, and there isn't one, what have they lost after they die? Nothing. On the other hand, what if they don't believe, and there actually IS a God in Heaven? What have they lost now? Everything. So perhaps you have everything to gain and nothing to lose - and that, in my book, is a no-lose bet. Since we MAY be talking about your existence after death, that alone should be worth some research, right? If that's not important, well then, I can't help you - but at least I throw that out there so maybe it will slowly sink in over time and you will take time someday to research something that just MIGHT be important.

Secondly, although there are thousands of modern books on the market that will address anything you want to, let's bypass that and go right to a source that IS mutually respected (looking at you Lex). Einstein. Don't even have to say his full name, do I? What did he say about God and/or life after death? Google it, if it matters.

Let's go to another source - the many people that have clinically died and returned with amazing stories. No, it wasn't due to some chemical function in their brains that made them THINK they went to heaven. They came back with names and facts that could only have been discovered IF they had actually met people in heaven. Google that too - if it matters. It's happened more than once - there are books and movies made about it. Could it be true? How sure are you?

And one final little thing to chew on, which is a personal favorite of mine. I have always pondered how the earth can stay on its precise orbit around the sun. I would think that one small imperfection would be so cumulative over the billions of years that it would cause us to drift off into space and freeze - or be pulled into the sun and fry. But no, we stay on the same path which is ideal in order to maintain the delicate balance of life we have. Add to this that we are spinning as we go, and the moon is revolving around us at the same time. Kind of mind-boggling don't you think? And let's add in that handy ozone layer that keeps us from frying from radiation. One of my atheist friends researched this further and discovered that our entire solar system is ALSO traveling in an outward direction, as the universe continues to expand. These are proven scientific FACTS people. You do the math on how this is all possible - it's way beyond me. I pointed out that the added dimension of our solar system expanding outwards at the same time as everything else was even MORE proof that some power wayyy beyond our understanding is indeed in control. That did not alter his non-belief, which didn't surprise me for some reason. He wants facts - he gets facts - but nothing changes. Sad.

And so it goes. Nothing will be proof enough to someone that has their mind made up. But I still offer these few things to think about. For those that can pry open the rusty hinges of their closed minds, they might be surprised to also learn about the differences in religions. But most won't do that much, even though Google can make it so easy for them.

If there is any chance you might think you know so much, but you could be wrong, then perhaps it might be wise to research things a bit more. Maybe even buy a book? I recommend Max Lucado, as he writes in an easy style and is thought-provoking. Another book that was made into a movie is called "The Case for Christ." This is about a reporter that is SICK of his wife being so religious, so he undertakes a journey to disprove her religious beliefs. In the end, he ends up quitting his career as a reporter and becomes a minister. He spent years on his quest and was very skilled as an investigative reporter. There may be something of value in his quest that you can learn from? Buy the book, if it matters at all. Or not - after all, what does eternity matter anyway? I assure you that something/someone wants you TO think that way, and they are not your friend. LOL. Google that too. You might learn a lot, if you try.

If I've pushed a button or two in your consciousness; then that's good. I'm not coddling you or preaching. Do want you want to do - and if you really think you're smart enough to have it figured out, then ignore all of this and please take over where Einstein left off.

Strangely, I don't think you've done due diligence regarding atheists or anti-theists yourself?

Pascal's wager is laughable to most.

Appealing to authority, Einstein even, is not very convincing.

I do personally love NDEs, but they are easily dismissable from a scientific perspective.

The laws of physics are why, and at best you're utilizing god of the gaps.

Quite a lot of effort really. Now perhaps go watch 10 hours of Hitchens and see what you're really up against? Or don't!

As an ex-atheist and an ex-anti-theist to a gnostic religious understander, while I get what you're trying to do and it is a noble pursuit overall, it is utterly pointless really. You cannot make someone see what they are holding if they refuse to look at their hands.

Have you ever noticed how your posts tend to be you mentally masturbating yourself? Because it's obvious to the rest of us.

lmao :rofl:

Do you mean to say his concerted effort didn't push a button or two in your consciousness??
 

Lex DeVille

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lmao :rofl:

Do you mean to say his concerted effort didn't push a button or two in your consciousness??

I just meant the posts show a trend of grandiose self-conversation. Outwardly, it appears the intent is intellectual discussion. But hidden within the words is a sense of moral superiority and a perspective that others have closed minds (certainly not his own).

This isn't the first time someone has called out one of his head fantasies which also have a trend of bizarre claims and paranoia (people out to get him). It also seems these situations manifest from his own behavior (wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time). The stories also seem unlikely to have happened as described in his rant posts.

Bottom line is he isn't talking with us, just at us, as indicated by the words "my religious beliefs require me to blah blah blah." I doubt anyone took the post seriously after that point, and since he already knew it would likely trigger people, then the intent was never discussion. Only weird proselytization. Otherwise, the post would have started much differently.
 
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GoodluckChuck

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It might have been that Joe Rogan podcast above where the guy talks about how humans aren't adapted to live longer because something else will always eventually kill them off.

If you get the live forever Gene youll still get hit by a golf ball while sipping coffee on your 171st birthday.

Another piece of media that got me thinking that death might not be the worst thing was a book called Altered Carbon. It's a show now I think.

Some people in the book have figured out how to live for hundreds of years and they end up doing some really dark shit because their lives lost all other meaning.

Combining the thinking about meaning with A Man's Search for Meaning and I accept death though I wouldn't say I'm pumped about it.

The fact that our time is limited gives a certain amount of consequence to our choices and consequences is another word for meaning. Meaning is what makes life, well, meaningful.

If you want to project out past your own life and feel sad that nobody remembers you just project out a bit more to the point where the sun consumes the Earth and nobodies legacy is even a memory.

All we can do is exercise our right to be human which is to choose the way we act in the face of any circumstances no matter how dire.
 

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Culture of cash over all. Tobacco industry, Weapons, Food additives, Pollution, even G.M. allowed their own customers to die in their Autos because they knew other White collars were going to only give them a fine.
 

Real Deal Denver

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I just meant the posts show a trend of grandiose self-conversation. Outwardly, it appears the intent is intellectual discussion. But hidden within the words is a sense of moral superiority and a perspective that others have closed minds (certainly not his own).

This isn't the first time someone has called out one of his head fantasies which also have a trend of bizarre claims and paranoia (people out to get him). It also seems these situations manifest from his own behavior (wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time). The stories also seem unlikely to have happened as described in his rant posts.

Bottom line is he isn't talking with us, just at us, as indicated by the words "my religious beliefs require me to blah blah blah." I doubt anyone took the post seriously after that point, and since he already knew it would likely trigger people, then the intent was never discussion. Only weird proselytization. Otherwise, the post would have started much differently.

Well put Lex. You're right. To bring everyone else up to speed, I realized that someone like you HAS to be told things. A more typical conversation "starting differently" would otherwise produce no results. And the purpose of my post is not to ramble or mentally masturbate - it is to gain headway past the obstinate views held so tightly by some here.

And, just as expected, your authoritative stance produced your equally expected crude and obnoxious response. Right on cue.

Rather than discuss facts, which you choose to avoid when they encroach on your ego - you sidestep the issue and go for the cheap personal attack. As expected. You're textbook.
 
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Lex DeVille

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Well put Lex. You're right. To bring everyone else up to speed, I realized that someone like you HAS to be told things. A more typical conversation "starting differently" would otherwise produce no results. And the purpose of my post is not to ramble or mentally masturbate - it is to gain headway past the obstinate views held so tightly by some here.

And, just as expected, your authoritative stance produced your equally expected crude and obnoxious response. Right on cue.

Rather than discuss facts, which you choose to avoid when they encroach on your ego - you sidestep the issue and go for the cheap personal attack. As expected. You're textbook.

How can I discuss facts with a religious zealot speaking from beliefs? As in...

My religious beliefs require me to take a stand and be a witness.

That was a rhetorical question. I've already blocked you.

#blocked #fanaticalmoronsidestepped
 
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