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O/T: HEALTH A Conversation about death...

Lex DeVille

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These comments were extracted (copied) from another thread and put into a new discussion. Original discussion found here:
O/T: Health - My 600lb Life: Addiction, Enabling, More (RANT)

I was going to put this in the RANDOM RANT thread but I thought it needed its own thread.

So I got stuck watching a few of these episodes and I've never been so frustrated in my life at human behavior.

What is happening on this show is DISGUSTING, and I don't mean the obese people struggling with food addiction.

This poor guy was 850 lbs. Mostly bed-ridden. Couldn't walk through doors. Terrible lymphedemas.



After watching a few episodes, here are the sad conclusions...

First, every obese person is an addict ... addicted to junk food, sugar, dairy (cheese), meat products, and processed food. THERE ISN'T A VEGETABLE IN SIGHT.

Not one subject was addicted to apples, kale, quinoa, or bananas.

Second, every morbidly obese person is being judged by another obese person.

In the case above, Robert, practically EVERYONE in his life was obese. I'm not talking about 20 lbs, but 100s. These people would interact with him as if he was the only one with the problem -- NO, YOU ALL HAVE A PROBLEM.

Third-- every single one of these people have a disconnect to what they shoved in their mouth (diet) and their weight. They think the FOOD isn't the problem, they think it's the QUANTITY, or something HORMONAL.

They don't see the system around them as the problem when the system is designed for this very function: sickness and obesity = profit.

The system of processed agriculture and the lobbyists/politicians who backstop it is designed to make you FAT and SICK. This is why a COKE is cheaper than a bottle of water. This is why a Bic Mac is cheaper than a deluxe salad.

Fourth -- and the most disgusting and frustrating thing of all -- every single one of these people who have eaten themselves immobile and near death has ENABLERS. Friends, family, and even parents.

I was absolutely sickened to see the mother of this man bring him whatever he wants.

Oh, he gets angry if I don't get him what he wants.
Oh, well Robert likes what he likes.

Are you f*cking kidding me?

Your kid is killing himself and you're only concern is to not make him mad?

Really?

You want your 4 bacon-double cheeseburgers? Get out of bed and go get them yourself.

Fifth -- these people see the "weight loss surgery" as the answer to their problems. Yes, the old EVENT/PROCESS where surgery represents the life-changing EVENT, the SHORTCUT whereas the PROCESS (proper diet) can be dismissed.

To be eligible for the surgery, they are required to lose weight. Then, they lose weight not because of the weight loss implications, but because they view the SURGERY as the quick fix. In other words, after I have the surgery, I'll be able to EAT WHATEVER THE f*ck I WANT again, I just won't eat as much.

Only the perceived access to the shortcut (surgery) is enough to get them to engage in the process (diet).

Sixth -- the enablers (family and friends) of these obese people are selfish and rude accomplices to murder. Even after the doctor clearly says "You are killing yourself" -- family members have NO PROBLEM eating garbage in front of the obese person trying to lose weight.

It's like trying to rehabilitate an alcoholic in a bar, or a crackhead in a crackhouse.

And these are people who supposedly "care" about their obese family member.

Well, we really care about Bill, but not so much to stop eating Mac and Cheese and greasy chicken in front of him.


Sick.

They only care about protecting what they shove in their mouth and how it tastes, and how it makes them feel.

This poor guy above -- even after losing 200+ lbs and FINALLY getting the help he needed ended up suffering a heart attack and dying on the show.

Tragic, but not unexpected.

But hey, at least his mother didn't make him angry and she was kind enough to bring him 2 loaves of bread, 6 perogies, and 3 bags of Skittles.

End Rant.
How you feel about this show and the people in it is how I feel about death in general and the entire population. I feel bad for these people for missing out on what little life they have, but in the end we all die (for now) and nobody seems to give a shit about that.

Obesity is an unfortunate problem, especially when it leads to early death. To me the bigger tragedy is death itself. Extending the lifespan won't solve the obesity problem, but it might help.

Some days I find it hard to get motivated when I think about the fact in another 50 years or so I'll be nothing more than a lingering thought (crossing my fingers for the Singularity though). My existence will extend as far as the legacy I leave behind, and the length of time it continues to be a legacy until the new society decides its not.

Columbus day in Oklahoma is now called "Indigenous People's Day." Not that it matters. Columbus ain't coming back whether we remember him or not.

I just want to have the choice to live and keep living. The thought that it's all coming to an end for everyone is the most frustrating, sad thought in the world. Almost as sad and distressing as the realization that virtually nobody cares and everybody on the planet is an enabler.
 

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amp0193

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How you feel about this show and the people in it is how I feel about death in general and the entire population. I feel bad for these people for missing out on what little life they have, but in the end we all die (for now) and nobody seems to give a sh*t about that.
Growing up religious, I think this is one of it's big cons. By promising life after death, and a "once saved, always saved" doctrine.... it kind of takes the urgency out of life.

If life is "supposed to be suffering", then why try to stop suffering? It'll be better in the next life.

When I accepted to myself that there probably isn't anything more, and this is all that I have... well shit, that got me going. For a while, I had a "death countdown" widget for chrome that would show my number of weeks left when I opened a new tab.

People go their whole life trying not to think about death. I think about it all the time. I imagine scenarios where my wife and kids die, and how my life would change, and what I would do differently. I really like the philosophy of Stoicism which gets into this kind of thing. It lets you be at peace with how shitty and random life can be.
 

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Growing up religious, I think this is one of it's big cons. By promising life after death, and a "once saved, always saved" doctrine.... it kind of takes the urgency out of life.

If life is "supposed to be suffering", then why try to stop suffering? It'll be better in the next life.

When I accepted to myself that there probably isn't anything more, and this is all that I have... well sh*t, that got me going. For a while, I had a "death countdown" widget for chrome that would show my number of weeks left when I opened a new tab.

People go their whole life trying not to think about death. I think about it all the time. I imagine scenarios where my wife and kids die, and how my life would change, and what I would do differently. I really like the philosophy of Stoicism which gets into this kind of thing. It lets you be at peace with how sh*tty and random life can be.
Damn dude, I thought I was dark.
 

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Damn dude, I thought I was dark.
Not dark, really. Like, it's not a fetish or anything. I'm just driving on the highway and a random thought pops in my head and I briefly contemplate it... instead of burying it.

I acknowledge death, and it in turn enables me to live a more extraordinary life.
 

Veloce Grey

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I just want to have the choice to live and keep living. The thought that it's all coming to an end for everyone is the most frustrating, sad thought in the world. Almost as sad and distressing as the realization that virtually nobody cares and everybody on the planet is an enabler.
Whatever your thoughts on death, if you live long enough, eventually there will come a point where you're not quite so keen to keep on going. My parents lived long lives, especially my Dad who ate fairly healthily, but the fact is the mind simply has an expiry date too and in his case it meant mind went before body. If I could have done it legally, I'd have taken both my parents out and put a bullet in them a couple of years before they died. It would have been merciful. Living beyond your mind's expiry date is far sadder than dying.

As to the American diet, I occasionally go to stores in NZ that sell imported sweets from the USA to make some novelty purchases. The thing is neither I nor anyone else I've offered them to has been able to eat many of these things. They simply don't resemble food to us. I tried a Twinkie for the first time this year and they are truly awful, not just in taste but you don't feel like you're eating food. The marshmallow fluff spread stuff I couldn't even bring myself to try but my enduring memory of it was first seeing it on a tv show where some public schools in the US were giving it to kids in sandwiches for lunch. Who could possibly think that is a good idea?
 

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Damn dude, I thought I was dark.
Haha, I was thinking the same thing. Except I do the same thing.
Not dark, really. Like, it's not a fetish or anything. I'm just driving on the highway and a random thought pops in my head and I briefly contemplate it... instead of burying it.

I acknowledge death, and it in turn enables me to live a more extraordinary life.
I’ve always had intrusive dark thoughts, and I’ve learned to embrace them because they’re not real and they’re not mine. They just pop up.

My in-laws live in NY, and when
my wife goes to visit with my son I can’t help but vividly imagine them perishing in a horrible accident. I go down the rabbit hole and it totally freaks me out. I’m not sure if it’s a control issue where I’m not there to protect them or what.

I will say that although it’s dark and I don’t like it, I’ve learned to live with it. These “God-forbid” scenarios make me a better husband and father by reminding me that life is finite and fragile.
 

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I used to really freak out when my wife would go on a trip... she goes on a lot of trips all over the world for work. I never really told anyone but I was freaking out inside. Like you, I'd imagine horrible accidents happening. I still have Flight Aware saved and check it regularly when she is flying but I don't freak out quite so bad these days.

I've never felt undeserving personally but I'm going to talk to my partner tomorrow about that. We are an open book so it doesn't bother me to talk to him about it. Plus, I can lead it to it by talking about this being his 1 year anniversary of his operation. By the way, he was only 350lbs but his doctor made him get the operation because something was messed up with his blood pressure and if he didn't get the operation, they said he would have died in 2018. Since the operation his blood pressure is normal.

I'm with you on Twinkies, they suck.... go get some Little Debbies Swiss Rolls. But you can't just eat the Swiss Roll, you have to eat it correctly.... 1 layer at a time. lol
 
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Lex DeVille

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Whatever your thoughts on death, if you live long enough, eventually there will come a point where you're not quite so keen to keep on going.
Living beyond your mind's expiry date is far sadder than dying.
Don't want to derail the thread, so I'll just highlight this post as an example. Someone mentions a desire to have the choice of how long to live, someone else is ready to shoot it down with personal biases, beliefs, and unfounded opinions. It's not really different from what happens in people dealing with obesity.
 

Veloce Grey

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Don't want to derail the thread, so I'll just highlight this post as an example. Someone mentions a desire to have the choice of how long to live, someone else is ready to shoot it down with personal biases, beliefs, and unfounded opinions. It's not really different from what happens in people dealing with obesity.
I'm not "shooting down" your desire-if you want to live to 150-200 or 500/1000 whatever that's fine it's your business and maybe one day science will provide a way to live such a very long time with some decent quality of life.

I'm just telling you that expectation vs reality for that isn't quite so glamorous right now. If you don't believe me feel free to spend as much time around older people in hospitals or retirement homes as I have. My opinions aren't unfounded, they're based around the current science for people living very long lives in that same way that telling a fat person there's current no magic pill to healthily take them from 500 pounds to 180 while still eating vast quantities of junk food is a current scientific reality.

And if you simply want something of your thoughts to live on after, and idea/a school of thought whatever, at least you're better placed than the average person who has come before in terms of tools that can help achieving that.
 
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Lex DeVille

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I'm not "shooting down" your desire-if you want to live to 150-200 or 500/1000 whatever that's fine it's your business and maybe one day science will provide a way to live such a very long time with some decent quality of life.

I'm just telling you that expectation vs reality for that isn't quite so glamorous right now. If you don't believe me feel free to spend as much time around older people in hospitals or retirement homes as I have. My opinions aren't unfounded, they're based around the current science for people living very long lives in that same way that telling a fat person there's current no magic pill to healthily take them from 500 pounds to 180 while still eating vast quantities of junk food is a current scientific reality.

And if you simply want something of your thoughts to live on after, and idea/a school of thought whatever, at least you're better placed than the average person who has come before in terms of tools that can help achieving that.
The expectation vs reality isn't glamorous now, but we're not talking about now. We're talking about tomorrow, and tomorrow might mean 50 years or it might mean 10. Either way our capabilities will be drastically different from what they are today.

The mind doesn't have an expiry date. You don't reach X days old and then you die. It's a result of age-related degenerative illnesses. So the solution has more to do with curing old illnesses (which seems to be happening more and more frequently these days). The problem is that many research programs are underfunded because nobody cares because they believe that death is inevitable.

Currently there's no magic pill that you know of, and even if there isn't, it doesn't mean someone won't invent one tomorrow.

Spending time in nursing homes won't change my perspective. I've already been down the path of believing death was the only option. I challenged myself and my beliefs and what I discovered was a world of possibility that less than the 1% are aware of.

Anyway, this is the last of my responses because we'll only get more derailed from here. If you want to take a day and explore other positions, WaitButWhy.com is a good place to start.

WaitButWhy.com
 

Veloce Grey

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Currently there's no magic pill that you know of, and even if there isn't, it doesn't mean someone won't invent one tomorrow.
Yeah I agree no need to derail this one as there's already the other extensive thread on the topic anyway.

I know it's something you think deeply about, so I sincerely hope for your sake that in 200 years I'm glancing down from Heaven and I see you still chugging along somehow.
 

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eliquid

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The expectation vs reality isn't glamorous now, but we're not talking about now. We're talking about tomorrow, and tomorrow might mean 50 years or it might mean 10. Either way our capabilities will be drastically different from what they are today.

The mind doesn't have an expiry date. You don't reach X days old and then you die. It's a result of age-related degenerative illnesses. So the solution has more to do with curing old illnesses (which seems to be happening more and more frequently these days). The problem is that many research programs are underfunded because nobody cares because they believe that death is inevitable.

Currently there's no magic pill that you know of, and even if there isn't, it doesn't mean someone won't invent one tomorrow.

Spending time in nursing homes won't change my perspective. I've already been down the path of believing death was the only option. I challenged myself and my beliefs and what I discovered was a world of possibility that less than the 1% are aware of.

Anyway, this is the last of my responses because we'll only get more derailed from here. If you want to take a day and explore other positions, WaitButWhy.com is a good place to start.

WaitButWhy.com
No disrespect man, truly not meant in what I am about to say.

But isn't what you said above, basically what you said below to @Veloce Grey ?

someone else is ready to shoot it down with personal biases, beliefs, and unfounded opinions
 

whiz

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How you feel about this show and the people in it is how I feel about death in general and the entire population. I feel bad for these people for missing out on what little life they have, but in the end we all die (for now) and nobody seems to give a sh*t about that.

Obesity is an unfortunate problem, especially when it leads to early death. To me the bigger tragedy is death itself. Extending the lifespan won't solve the obesity problem, but it might help.

Some days I find it hard to get motivated when I think about the fact in another 50 years or so I'll be nothing more than a lingering thought (crossing my fingers for the Singularity though). My existence will extend as far as the legacy I leave behind, and the length of time it continues to be a legacy until the new society decides its not.

Columbus day in Oklahoma is now called "Indigenous People's Day." Not that it matters. Columbus ain't coming back whether we remember him or not.

I just want to have the choice to live and keep living. The thought that it's all coming to an end for everyone is the most frustrating, sad thought in the world. Almost as sad and distressing as the realization that virtually nobody cares and everybody on the planet is an enabler.
Not to derail but why is death a tragedy?

And why does it matter if you "leave a legacy" or whatever? Why do you need to be more than a "lingering thought"?

I find that these type of thoughts are just an extension of our social & psychological needs that helped us survive until now (especially males).

You don't have to be bound by them or feel bad or stressed or anxious or whatever.

I find it very freeing to know that nothing really matters if you extend the timeline long enough...

I dunno. Maybe I read this wrong but it seems like a bleak stance on death.

I find that acknowledging all this kinda stuff makes me way more thankful and appreciative then I could ever be. That's why I could never eat myself to be 600 lb... or spend my life worrying about useless bullshit, stupid fights, gossip, etc

I'm here due to a string of insanely random events (I think...), I don't understand why anything exists at all - but I'm here and the experience is pretty cool so screw it, I'm gonna live... and when I die, well... I die.

Nothing good about it, nothing bad about it.

The only thing I really like about the idea of a legacy is that it motivates people. I really don't care about the ego aspect of it all...

It would just be cool to live a life that makes the average quality of life on Earth a little better... and in doing so, you might inspire the next generation, and so on, and so forth.

Basically, I like the idea of legacy because I wouldn't be anywhere without my own role models. I would be a mess. So I kinda owe it to become a role model myself...

But yeah, on a long enough timeline nothing matters and everything will be forgotten

But the whole idea that anything exists just boggles my mind so I'm just thankful to experience this stuff

So I'm gonna try to remain under 600 lbs

End rant
 

MJ DeMarco

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I'm not going to disclose what I believe in terms of death because it gets political, but I would say this which I think is helpful.

The fear of death is the #1 fear we all suffer from. Consciously or not.

It's the biggest fear we have and all of our other fears can be traced back to this fear at least a little bit.

It's the trunk if the tree.

Now. Removing the fear of death greatly increases our quality of life because it greatly reduces or completely removes all other fears or anxieties.

Obviously the question now is how does someone do that?

Which gets political so I will just leave it at that.

I did borrow a lot of these ideas from Sigmund Freud.:hilarious:
 

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I'm not going to disclose what I believe in terms of death because it gets political, but I would say this which I think is helpful.

The fear of death is the #1 fear we all suffer from. Consciously or not.

It's the biggest fear we have and all of our other fears can be traced back to this fear at least a little bit.

It's the trunk if the tree.

Now. Removing the fear of death greatly increases our quality of life because it greatly reduces or completely removes all other fears or anxieties.

Obviously the question now is how does someone do that?

Which gets political so I will just leave it at that.

I did borrow a lot of these ideas from Sigmund Freud.:hilarious:
I posted about psychedelics last week and I still don't know the forum's stance on them, so I apologize if I'm violating any rules -

I have had several moments with psychedelics where I have absolutely no fear of death at all, meaning I could have died right then and there without a single care in the world.

No checklists of things I haven't done... no thoughts of the things I've done in my life - just complete acceptance.

It's a very nice feeling, and not one that you really ever have on a normal day. You're far too invested in your ego and the many connections that you have with the world and it's people, places, and objects...

But the feeling is great. I would describe the feeling as just - completeness.

But although it's a great feeling to have for a couple seconds, I think a little anxiety and fear of death is good (for motivation).

I don't think humans would really do much if it weren't for this underlying, unconscious grappling with our own mortality.

I think it kinda makes us tick, one way or the other.
 

ProblemOd

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I've been thinking of death a lot lately. I'm turning 30 this January.

Mostly at nights, but also much more throughout the day now. It scares me to my bones.

People often say "it's just like before you were born" as a comforting statement, but that thought terrifies me.

The only good I can see from death, is that it makes you place more importance on your time here, and be more "present". Neil Degrasse Tyson gives this reason for him not fearing death, because living forever means you won't care or have the drive to do anything.

But that doesn't make me feel better.

I guess all we can do is accept reality as it is and make the best of the life we have left. Prepare where we can and for the rest, sprinkle in a little bit of hope that we won't die early from disease or tragedy.
 

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I posted about psychedelics last week and I still don't know the forum's stance on them, so I apologize if I'm violating any rules -
Yeah I did read your post.

I think a lot of people are reluctant to try these kinds of things because #1 of social stigma and #2 because of fear of losing their minds.

Despite the fact that metaphysically speaking our present imagination, memories and emotions meet the criteria and properties of intellectual confusion and are really no different than an illusion anyways. :rofl:

These things are tools that help break the stubbornness of these things.

I think it was Plato that said the Body was the greatest weight on the soul. In other words our body is confused anyways.
 

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One of the reasons why I enjoy having crazy adventures and practicing extreme sports is because they remind me of death in a very powerful, direct way.

If you make a technical mistake when climbing (say, unclip the wrong carabiner), you're dead (it's often on my mind when climbing - it's super easy to kill yourself if you get distracted when climbing outdoors).

If you panic in the water when you wipe out on a big wave while surfing, you can drown (haven't surfed big waves yet, but was held down by a powerful wave for much longer than it was comfortable).

If you go offroad driving in a sparsely populated country and meet the wrong people, you can disappear just like that (had two such experiences of meeting people in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night, fortunately both times they weren't dangerous).

I often catch myself thinking: "why the hell am I doing this stuff?" But I always soon remember why: it forces me to be in the present moment and these are usually the most precious, memorable moments in life that make you grow as a person. As Seneca said:

It is not that we have a short time to live, but that we waste a lot of it. Life is long enough, and a sufficiently generous amount has been given to us for the highest achievements if it were all well invested. But when it is wasted in heedless luxury and spent on no good activity, we are forced at last by death’s final constraint to realize that it has passed away before we knew it was passing. So it is: we are not given a short life but we make it short, and we are not ill-supplied but wasteful of it… Life is long if you know how to use it.

If you prioritize safety and comfort in your life, you rarely, if ever, get to think of death in this direct way. I don't think that everyone absolutely has to force themselves to do this stuff, but it's definitely useful if you want to get more comfortable with death.

For me personally it's a good way to live better because I'm constantly reminded that death is not a far-off concept. It's good to be humble and remember that you aren't immortal.
 

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I've been thinking of death a lot lately. I'm turning 30 this January.

Mostly at nights, but also much more throughout the day now. It scares me to my bones.

People often say "it's just like before you were born" as a comforting statement, but that thought terrifies me.

The only good I can see from death, is that it makes you place more importance on your time here, and be more "present". Neil Degrasse Tyson gives this reason for him not fearing death, because living forever means you won't care or have the drive to do anything.

But that doesn't make me feel better.

I guess all we can do is accept reality as it is and make the best of the life we have left. Prepare where we can and for the rest, sprinkle in a little bit of hope that we won't die early from disease or tragedy.

I'm not religious but I use this alot " accept the things I cannot change, change the things I can and be wise enough to know the difference"
 
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Lex DeVille

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I see this became its own thread, so I guess we can chat a little more. First I want to clear up a few things...

1) Please do not PM me with unsolicited advice about how I can overcome my fear of death. I never said I fear death and also did not ask for help. Not being a douche. This already happened today.

2) The purpose of my original post was to empathize with MJ's feelings from a different perspective. It wasn't to start a debate about death.

3) I do not care if you want to live until tomorrow, next week, 50 years from now, or forever. Live however long you want. I am not trying to convince you that you should want to live forever. I AM advocating that however long you want to live, you should have the choice and if ever you decide you are done living, that should also be your choice.

Okay, now to catch up...

eliquid said:
No disrespect man, truly not meant in what I am about to say.

But isn't what you said above, basically what you said below to @Veloce Grey ?
I doubled checked my post to confirm, and I don't think so. Not sure if I'm interpreting your post correctly, but I assumed you were referring to what I said about spending time in nursing homes not changing my perspective. It isn't that I'm not open to changing my perspective at all, and there are certain situations in which I might choose death over life, though none immediately spring to mind.

The reason I made the statement is because I've been around nursing homes my whole life. My grandmother ran one. She and my grandfather both died of dementia and Alzheimer's. My step grandfather also died of dementia. His funeral was Wednesday. My parents cared for my grandfather in-home during his suffering. I'm quite familiar with what the diseases of old age do to the body, and I still want to live indefinitely because there is a fair chance those diseases will be eradicated within the next 10-20 years and humans will be able to live in young, healthy bodies with young, healthy minds.

I am biased toward life. It's good for survival. That bias is not a belief that I can live forever. Currently it is not possible. But I do believe there is a chance it isn't impossible and spending time around the world's foremost longevity researchers, techno philosophers, and life extension entrepreneurs has reinforced that belief. This bias and belief is not the same as what I've come to call the "typical deathist response" given by those who meet "immortalists" for the first time. That is, a rapid-fire, unresearched, cliche reason why death is good and life is bad (though that person virtually always chooses to continue living given the choice in the moment).

Long story short, I am biased, but there is a difference in what I called out Veloce Grey for.


whiz said:
Not to derail but why is death a tragedy?
I view death as a tragedy because I enjoy life. I enjoy my family and friends. I enjoy experiencing the world. I want to continue experiencing all life has to offer. Therefore death is a tragedy because it is the end of life and all of the things I love.

This doesn't make it a tragedy for everybody else though. What makes it a tragedy for others is that they might not have a choice even if one becomes present. I hate that I might offer my own parents a choice to live longer some day and they might reject it because they've always been taught that death is good, or any number of other reasons, despite the fact that if they really took a moment to challenge their own stance, they might realize new information and decide differently. They also might not. Either way without challenging their own beliefs there is no choice, so tragically, the choice has already been made for them.

whiz said:
And why does it matter if you "leave a legacy" or whatever? Why do you need to be more than a "lingering thought"?
It doesn't matter if I leave a legacy. I made this statement to show a perspective on one reason obese people might choose to indulge and not try harder to lose weight. Fat people die. Skinny people die. So I can empathize with how obese individuals might choose to enjoy food and live obese instead of going through the hard work to lose weight when it doesn't matter in the end.

whiz said:
I find that these type of thoughts are just an extension of our social & psychological needs that helped us survive until now (especially males).
Yes, that makes sense. Humans have evolved to survive. Survival is our natural inclination. Death is not. One more reason I'm biased toward life. All my life I was told death is natural. If that's true, then why do I look both ways before I cross the street?

whiz said:
I find that acknowledging all this kinda stuff makes me way more thankful and appreciative then I could ever be. That's why I could never eat myself to be 600 lb... or spend my life worrying about useless bullshit, stupid fights, gossip, etc
These statements don't make sense to me. They're definitive statements about a future you haven't lived yet. Like saying you could never be more happy than you are right now, but then tomorrow you wake up happier than you are today. They're nice to say off-handedly, but they're not statements of fact.

socaldude said:
The fear of death is the #1 fear we all suffer from. Consciously or not.
Now. Removing the fear of death greatly increases our quality of life because it greatly reduces or completely removes all other fears or anxieties.
If we all suffer from fear of death, how can someone remove it? If it can be removed, then surely there are those who do not suffer from fear of death.

I do not suffer from fear of death because I do not fear death. I acknowledge it as a result of the body's processes failing until they can no longer operate as they are supposed to. My job then is to live long enough to take advantage of medical or other technologies that allow the body to continue functioning appropriately even if they begin to fail.

whiz said:
I don't think humans would really do much if it weren't for this underlying, unconscious grappling with our own mortality.
If this is true, then what motivated you today when you felt no risk of your impending doom? What will motivate you tomorrow? Do you thrust yourself into life or death situations to motivate yourself regularly?

There is no rational reason I can think of that humans would stop doing things if they lived longer or forever. Since the human lifespan has gradually increased for centuries, and yet we still continue doing things, we can at least say that living longer does not change our stance on continuing to be productive in a general sense.

If we're talking about living indefinitely, then a universe of possibilities awaits as there is very little chance the world will be anything like it is today in 1,000 or 1,000,000 years. Personally, I want to experience all of it (but that is open to change at later points in time).

problemod said:
The only good I can see from death, is that it makes you place more importance on your time here, and be more "present". Neil Degrasse Tyson gives this reason for him not fearing death, because living forever means you won't care or have the drive to do anything.
Since we don't have the option to live forever, we can't know (and neither can Neil Degrasse Tyson, as much as I respect him) if our death makes us place higher value on our time or be more present. If I knew right now that I would live forever, I would likely still wake up tomorrow and continue building my business and my dream.

problemod said:
I guess all we can do is accept reality as it is and make the best of the life we have left. Prepare where we can and for the rest, sprinkle in a little bit of hope that we won't die early from disease or tragedy.
That's the thing. Acceptance is NOT all we can do. There MAY be an alternative to death, and therefore alternatives to what we can do to avoid it. Presently those alternatives are believed to start by curing the diseases of aging such as dementia and Alzheimer's which shut down the body and lead to death.

First life must be extended. If we extend it long enough, we may be able to take advantage of technologies that allow us to extend life indefinitely (for those who want that). This is NOT a for sure thing. But I prefer an optimistic outlook in any case.
 

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whiz

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If this is true, then what motivated you today when you felt no risk of your impending doom? What will motivate you tomorrow? Do you thrust yourself into life or death situations to motivate yourself regularly?

There is no rational reason I can think of that humans would stop doing things if they lived longer or forever. Since the human lifespan has gradually increased for centuries, and yet we still continue doing things, we can at least say that living longer does not change our stance on continuing to be productive in a general sense.
I'm not saying that people would stop doing things.

I'm just saying that fear of death probably plays a huge role in why people do what they do.

Why they make the choices they make amongst all the noise.

If you had infinite time here, you'd choose to spend your time differently.

You might put certain things off or rearrange your life events because you know you have forever.

And without the reaper over your shoulder, you might not be motivated to have such a specific bucket list.

I'm sure people like us might view a longer life in a productive way...

I just don't like how some people waste their time because they believe in some place in the clouds where all their relatives are waiting and they have super happy mega fun time 24/7 for eternity...

In that sense, I find the loom of death to be a great motivator to experience life while you're here

I'm having a hard time trying to put this all into words...
 

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That's the thing. Acceptance is NOT all we can do.
I was speaking as an individual living in current times. There is no chance of anyone alive today, living forever. Maybe for future generations. But that thought does not console me about death because it does not apply to me, so there is only one option, acceptance.
 

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I am all for extending life etc, but what will that quality of life look like?

Believe me i dont wanna die either @Lex DeVille lol

I don't like thinking about it, but as i get older i think about it more and more.
 
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I was speaking as an individual living in current times. There is no chance of anyone alive today, living forever. Maybe for future generations. But that thought does not console me about death because it does not apply to me, so there is only one option, acceptance.
How do you know this? I ask because there are plenty of reasons to believe otherwise. Probably the most widely known of those reasons is Ray Kurzweil's predicted "Singularity" - the point at which man merges with machine to take advantage of the exponential capabilities of machine technology. I believe there is a documentary on Netflix called "The Singularity is Near" if you want a quick catch-me-up. The Singularity is currently predicted to happen by 2045 or possibly sooner, at which point humans will (theoretically) have the option to live as long as they want.

I am all for extending life etc, but what will that quality of life look like?

Believe me i dont wanna die either @Lex DeVille lol

I don't like thinking about it, but as i get older i think about it more and more.
Current predictions suggest Alzheimer's could be wiped out by as soon as 2026. That's still several years away, but is well within our (my) lifetime. As the diseases of old age begin to die off, it leaves the body in a healthy state. Then the challenge becomes reversing the aging process to live longer in a more youthful, fit body. Progress is already being made in this area in mice, and human trials are scheduled to begin. Here's one article about that if you're interested:

A cure for aging? Clinical trials will begin in humans

If you live long enough, you have a chance to live in a young, healthy, fit body OR if you factor in technology, a chance at a cybernetic body at some point OR possibly just "in the cloud" with your mind having been uploaded to a computer system. There's also the chance you'll end up with dementia or Alzheimer's before you reach that point, but until something changes, that's the outcome anyway so I prefer to be optimistic about the possibilities.

My only views on death:

If heaven was real, how would it change what you do now?

If it wasn’t, how would it change what you do now?

It’s that simple.
I don't want to go too far into religious territory at the risk of getting in trouble and at the high risk of getting off topic on a "God is/isn't real" debate. I will say I do not think it would change what I do now. I've not said that I don't believe "heaven" is or isn't real. I'm open to the possibility. However, my view is that if it is real, it likely isn't what humans have made it out to be. In my opinion, Heaven is a place made up by humans to help them feel better about a problem they don't know how to solve, and don't believe they can solve - basically a coping mechanism.
 
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@Lex DeVille

Yeh I hope so but I just don't see it happening, they said that a cancer cure was on the way years back and that's never happened. Human beings for centuries have done a host of outrageous things to try and prevent death.

Surely a forum full of entrepreneurs can crack the code, let's all solve the problem! :)
 

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I'm optimistic, but at the same time realistic. Otherwise I would be searching up cures for death every day and getting excited at the first article that says possible cure within this amount of years for such n such disease. I just wanna live my life.

The updating your mind to a cloud seems creepy, it might be your data from your mind, but there's no way that's you.
 
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I'm optimistic, but at the same time realistic. Otherwise I would be searching up cures for death every day and getting excited at the first article that says possible cure within this amount of years for such n such disease. I just wanna live my life.

The updating your mind to a cloud seems creepy, it might be your data from your mind, but there's no way that's you.
Being optimistic doesn't mean you have to constantly research cancer or dementia cures. When it happens everyone will know. You can still live your life like normal.

It isn't uncommon for people to refer to mind uploading as "creepy" due in large part to mass media and how it portrays futuristic ideas negatively. There are a lot of things people of the past would have called creepy that we do every day now - for instance, typing messages to your mom on a tiny computer from the toilet.

Regarding the data not being "you" - what is "you"?

When you copy a file from your computer to a thumb drive, it is essentially the same file. This is a major simplification. The mind is much more complex than a computer file, but with advanced technology, the concept is somewhat similar. The file is still the file, and the file can be in multiple places at once. Personally, I haven't found any reason to believe the human mind can't work similarly with the proper technology.
 

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It's funny how as humans even though we all come from many different places and different traditions, we all have a common fear which is death. It's because we all share a common thing which is life.

I've read many interesting thoughts in this thread, and therefore I'd like to share what I think of death as a Muslim in verses from the Quran. Please don't think I'm preaching here because I'm not and I have no purpose in doing so but I'd like to quote the verses because who can explain it better than the source itself.

  • (It is He) Who created death and life that He may try you- which of you is best in deeds; and He is the Mighty, the Forgiving, (67:2)

  • And the stupor of death will come in truth; that is what you were trying to escape. (Surah Qaf 50:19)

  • O soul that are at rest! Return to your Lord, well-pleased (with him), well-pleasing (Him), So enter among My servants, And enter into My garden. (89:27-30)

  • Every human being is bound to taste death: but only on the Day of Resurrection will you be requited in full [for whatever you have done] - whereupon he that shall be drawn away from the fire and brought into paradise will indeed have gained a triumph: for the life of this world is nothing but an enjoyment of self-delusion. - 3:185

  • And it is He who has made you successors upon the earth and has raised some of you above others in degrees [of rank] that He may try you through what He has given you. Indeed, your Lord is swift in penalty; but indeed, He is Forgiving and Merciful.

  • “What! Did you think that We had created you without purpose, and that you would not be brought back to Us? Exalted be Allah, the True King….” (23:115-116)


  • “They say, ‘There is nothing but our present life; we die, and we live, and nothing but time destroys us.’ Of that they have no knowledge; they merely conjecture. And when Our revelations are recited to them, their only argument is that they say, ‘Bring us our father, if you speak truly.’” (45:24-25)


  • And says man: What! when I am dead shall I truly be brought forth alive? Does not man remember that We created him before, when he was nothing? (19:66-67)

  • And He it is Who originates the creation, then reproduces it, and it is easy to Him… (30:27)


And there are many more verses concerning that in the Quran.

I would like to answer the question of how will you have motivation after reading all those verses about death however that in fact it is the source of motivation for me - I feel like I have very limited time to exceed in giving the most value to humans ever in every aspect and thus in this world and the hereafter I shall reap the benefits of my efforts....but then again I start thinking sometimes that I haven't done much in this life - I mean honestly what can you do in just 60/70/80 years - that's if you actually make it? if you compare your living years to the world, you can barely do much...
It's well-known amongst Islamic scholars from early stages that your time is the most important thing you have...that's why they would never be wasting anytime usually and they would think about every second as the most important thing in their lives because they only have a limited amount of it in this world....


  • Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people."
Sorry for long post, but I wanted to share my belief on this matter because it's such an important topic for every human being
 

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