Veganism / Plant-Based Diet

[csalvato]

vegan diet is far too extreme in my opinion(unless it's for ethical reasons)

I contend that veganism and vegetarianism isn't any more or less ethical than a omnivorous diet...unless you grow all of your food yourself without any farm equipment.

 

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[BlakeIC]

Haha,That's VeganGains.He is actually Green and is incredibly small with horrible lifts.

And a known psychopath amongst the bb community

 

[Arty]

The Weston A. Price research on diet is what I tend to practice with my own preferences mixed in.

Yes yes and YES.
The Weston A. Price diet is by far the best.
It's the most accurate representation of the dietary habits of early humans, particularly the emphasis on eating organ meats, bone marrow and raw milk.

 

[csalvato]

The Weston A. Price diet is by far the best.

I haven't read the WAP stuff, but the little I have heard I have liked.

I think the easiest way to think of it is that if it wasn't considered food 300 years ago, it's probably not really good for you. I think there's benefits to thinking back to earlier humans - but people tend to get carried away and start eating ants off of sticks and shit. It's just not necessary.

 

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[ToniLene]

I contend that veganism and vegetarianism isn't any more or less ethical than a omnivorous diet...unless you grow all of your food yourself without any farm equipment.

I agree. I do have respect for the devout though. There are religious groups(Jains, Hindus, Buddhists, etc...) that refrain from meat and it's a millennia old way of life for them, not a fad like some of these five minute vegans that love to proselytize.

 

[Mineralogic]

I haven't read the WAP stuff, but the little I have heard I have liked.

I think the easiest way to think of it is that if it wasn't considered food 300 years ago, it's probably not really good for you. I think there's benefits to thinking back to earlier humans - but people tend to get carried away and start eating ants off of sticks and shit. It's just not necessary.

If phytic acid isnt removed it binds minerals and lowers mineral absorption....basically takes hard research to learn all this stuff as I see many here have done the work

Older cultures did do this as part of custom

People also took wood ash and recycled into garden

 

[Nick314]

Possibly one of the best reads about diet in general is "The Vegetarian Myth" by Lierre Keith, a former vegan.
She discusses the topic from every angle: politics, ecology, physiology/metabolism, energy, anthropology, and history.

Quite often the motives for choosing vegetarianism/veganism come from a moral goal, but unfortunately most of the conclusions are based on *misinformation*. The heart is in the right place, but the facts are wrong.

Truth: There is *no food on the planet* that can be created or harvested without involving the death of an animal in some way shape or form.
So the argument that "not harming any animals" by choosing what's on your plate is completely fallacious. She begins her book by busting myths around this, and explains in detail why it is so. She enumerates many such claims and explains in detail how they are twisting the truth or are outright incorrect--and what the real ramifications are.

This book is highly recommended in many dietary circles, not just non-vegetarian. It doesn't try to convince you not to be vegetarian/vegan--it tries to educated, thus allowing anyone who wants to continue living as such to do so for reasons other than misinformed mantras they merely heard from someone else.

 

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[Iwokeup]

Doctors are not authorities on nutrition. They are authorities on assessing symptoms and providing a diagnosis based on shit tons of memorization and, in many cases, a complete lack of intelligent thought. Even Doctors will agree with this, right @Iwokeup ?

1. No, we're NOT authorities on nutrition. But we're far better than most 'experts' out there and perhaps lower down than PhDs/Research physicians who spend their careers studying nutrition.

2.

'and in many cases, a complete lack of intelligent thought.'

Not true at all. I think about each and every one my patients and the honest truth is that most physicians do the same. That's an insulting comment dude.

Look, just like in life or the Universe, there's something called the Normal distribution:

What that means in practice is that 95% of ALL PATIENTS PRESENTING TO US fall within 2 standard deviations from the mean,or 'average' patient.
What that ALSO means is that 95% of PHYSICIANS will be within the same range of COMPETENCE.

If you want to narrow the intervals down, then ~70% of doctors and patients will be 'close to average' and that means that, honestly, common complaints/ailments really are COMMON.

Also realize that physicians are just like any other human system. If you have doctors that have rarely seen or managed very difficult or unusual cases then they're less likely to pick up something out of the norm. Though with the advent of the Internet and CME requirements and resources like the NEJM online, Medscape, PubMed and UpToDate, it's less and less acceptable to not at least be in the BALLPARK of the diagnosis.

Anyway, please don't belittle physicians as 'unthinking.' Most of what we see we have seen hundreds/thousands of times and we're employing heuristic analysis to decrease the mental energy/effort/impact on the patient (tests/radiation/pain) to arrive at a correct diagnosis/treatment algorithim. Only when a patient's symptoms are outside of the norm and/or dangerous do we get triggered to 'go farther down that route.'

Now for me, as an Emergency Medicine doctor, my first/last/always question when I see a patient is, "Is what they're complaining of, or what I am seeing/hearing/smelling indicative of a deadly or potentially deadly condition?" If YES, then it's big workup time. If not, then not and it can likely be worked up at a more leisurely pace with their doctor.

Add in the pressure from all sides to see more patients in less time and penalties for 'taking too long" to spend time with patients, and then you get situations where some things are just missed.

Finally (though not conclusively), probably 15% of all patient complaints and symptoms(not signs) are psychological in origin.

Peace.

 

[csalvato]

1. No, we're NOT authorities on nutrition. But we're far better than most 'experts' out there and perhaps lower down than PhDs/Research physicians who spend their careers studying nutrition.

2. Not true at all. I think about each and every one my patients and the honest truth is that most physicians do the same. That's an insulting comment dude.

Look, just like in life or the Universe, there's something called the Normal distribution:

What that means in practice is that 95% of ALL PATIENTS PRESENTING TO US fall within 2 standard deviations from the mean,or 'average' patient.
What that ALSO means is that 95% of PHYSICIANS will be within the same range of COMPETENCE.

If you want to narrow the intervals down, then ~70% of doctors and patients will be 'close to average' and that means that, honestly, common complaints/ailments really are COMMON.

Also realize that physicians are just like any other human system. If you have doctors that have rarely seen or managed very difficult or unusual cases then they're less likely to pick up something out of the norm. Though with the advent of the Internet and CME requirements and resources like the NEJM online, Medscape, PubMed and UpToDate, it's less and less acceptable to not at least be in the BALLPARK of the diagnosis.

Anyway, please don't belittle physicians as 'unthinking.' Most of what we see we have seen hundreds/thousands of times and we're employing heuristic analysis to decrease the mental energy/effort/impact on the patient (tests/radiation/pain) to arrive at a correct diagnosis/treatment algorithim. Only when a patient's symptoms are outside of the norm and/or dangerous do we get triggered to 'go farther down that route.'

Now for me, as an Emergency Medicine doctor, my first/last/always question when I see a patient is, "Is what they're complaining of, or what I am seeing/hearing/smelling indicative of a deadly or potentially deadly condition?" If YES, then it's big workup time. If not, then not and it can likely be worked up at a more leisurely pace with their doctor.

Add in the pressure from all sides to see more patients in less time and penalties for 'taking too long" to spend time with patients, and then you get situations where some things are just missed.

Finally (though not conclusively), probably 15% of all patient complaints and symptoms(not signs) are psychological in origin.

Peace.

I apologize for insulting you as that was not my intention.

My understanding is based on my several friends who are MDs, PhDs and MD/PhDs who I have spoken with at length about their practices in the UK and the US.

In both countries, the consensus between them is that their hands are tied many times in regards to diagnosis.

According to other doctors I have spoken to about this, they feel that most of the tests they recommend are based on things they have to recommend to avoid malpractice when certain situations arise....and they aren't allowed to use discerning intellectual thought in a vast majority of fields, especially those outside of specialty medicine.

They are also extremely strapped for time and unable to give thoughtful, intelligent insights on all of the patients they see during their rounds.

I didn't mean it as an insult, but a highlight that most doctors can't intelligently think about diagnosis. And many doctors, on their own time, are not investigating nutrition - a topic that is not included in med. school in much detail aside from conventional wisdom.

Again, no insult intended, and I didn't think we were on so different of a page.

PS - The normal distribution is not something that is true across all domains in life or the universe. There are several distributions that populations fall under -- power distributions, normal distributions, negative binomial distributions, etc. The problem many people make when looking at data across a large population is not testing the right distribution, and defaulting to the normal distribution. I don't know if the normal distribution applies in this case. If I had to wager a guess, I would say MD competence probably falls into a power distribution, and patient ailments into a normal distribution. But that's just my hunch.

 

[Iwokeup]

I apologize for insulting you as that was not my intention.

My understanding is based on my several friends who are MDs, PhDs and MD/PhDs who I have spoken with at length about their practices in the UK and the US.

In both countries, the consensus between them is that their hands are tied many times in regards to diagnosis.

According to other doctors I have spoken to about this, they feel that most of the tests they recommend are based on things they have to recommend to avoid malpractice when certain situations arise....and they aren't allowed to use discerning intellectual thought in a vast majority of fields, especially those outside of specialty medicine.

They are also extremely strapped for time and unable to give thoughtful, intelligent insights on all of the patients they see during their rounds.

I didn't mean it as an insult, but a highlight that most doctors can't intelligently think about diagnosis. And many doctors, on their own time, are not investigating nutrition - a topic that is not included in med. school in much detail aside from conventional wisdom.

Again, no insult intended, and I didn't think we were on so different of a page.

Okay! We're cool then.

PS - The normal distribution is not something that is true across all domains in life or the universe. There are several distributions that populations fall under -- power distributions, normal distributions, negative binomial distributions, etc. The problem many people make when looking at data across a large population is not testing the right distribution, and defaulting to the normal distribution. I don't know if the normal distribution applies in this case. If I had to wager a guess, I would say MD competence probably falls into a power distribution, and patient ailments into a normal distribution. But that's just my hunch.

Yeah, great point about distributions. Not sure if it's true in this case (yet) but something to definitely investigate.

According to other doctors I have spoken to about this, they feel that most of the tests they recommend are based on things they have to recommend to avoid malpractice when certain situations arise....and they aren't allowed to use discerning intellectual thought in a vast majority of fields, especially those outside of specialty medicine.

They are also extremely strapped for time and unable to give thoughtful, intelligent insights on all of the patients they see during their rounds.

Also very true. It's one of those situations where the business folks running medicine (and make no mistake, physicians do NOT run medicine anymore) and the IT enablers/statisticians are driving health care decisions and leaving the human/time element out of the equation. All very depressing for us docs here in the US (can't speak intelligently to physicians in other countries).

 

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[Mineralogic]

1. No, we're NOT authorities on nutrition. But we're far better than most 'experts' out there and perhaps lower down than PhDs/Research physicians who spend their careers studying nutrition.

2. Not true at all. I think about each and every one my patients and the honest truth is that most physicians do the same. That's an insulting comment dude.

Look, just like in life or the Universe, there's something called the Normal distribution:

What that means in practice is that 95% of ALL PATIENTS PRESENTING TO US fall within 2 standard deviations from the mean,or 'average' patient.
What that ALSO means is that 95% of PHYSICIANS will be within the same range of COMPETENCE.

If you want to narrow the intervals down, then ~70% of doctors and patients will be 'close to average' and that means that, honestly, common complaints/ailments really are COMMON.

Also realize that physicians are just like any other human system. If you have doctors that have rarely seen or managed very difficult or unusual cases then they're less likely to pick up something out of the norm. Though with the advent of the Internet and CME requirements and resources like the NEJM online, Medscape, PubMed and UpToDate, it's less and less acceptable to not at least be in the BALLPARK of the diagnosis.

Anyway, please don't belittle physicians as 'unthinking.' Most of what we see we have seen hundreds/thousands of times and we're employing heuristic analysis to decrease the mental energy/effort/impact on the patient (tests/radiation/pain) to arrive at a correct diagnosis/treatment algorithim. Only when a patient's symptoms are outside of the norm and/or dangerous do we get triggered to 'go farther down that route.'

Now for me, as an Emergency Medicine doctor, my first/last/always question when I see a patient is, "Is what they're complaining of, or what I am seeing/hearing/smelling indicative of a deadly or potentially deadly condition?" If YES, then it's big workup time. If not, then not and it can likely be worked up at a more leisurely pace with their doctor.

Add in the pressure from all sides to see more patients in less time and penalties for 'taking too long" to spend time with patients, and then you get situations where some things are just missed.

Finally (though not conclusively), probably 15% of all patient complaints and symptoms(not signs) are psychological in origin.

Peace.

I'd wager at least 90% of the "physchological" causes of symptoms can be directly traced to things like ENVIRONMENT illness and other offshoots of toxicity to various degrees and processed differently by each person's specific DNA. Several pysch issues can be linked to specific crucial minerals or vitamins. But that won't make big pharma money

Having gone thru a toxic mold experience, I had do to all my own DD and find out how ignorant the medical establishment is on many NON-emergency treatments. American MD's are great at emergency and basic allopathic treatments. They are great at specialty treatments and even drugs. They are terrible at implementing nutritional strategies and wholistic treatments unless you see a ND. We all know who funded the allopathic paradigm, don't we?


But is it curing people and making the US the healthiest nation in the world ? Especially since we pay the most by far? No

I realize now the first question any non emergency SICK PERSON should go thru is to question what they have been eating, where they live, what is their environment, do they work in a factory with chemicals, etc.

60% of the public buildings out there have mold and potentially toxic mold in them

30% of ALL of the people reading this board have DNA specific issue with detoxing mold and potentially other chemicals/heavy metals

At a certain point everyone will have their toxic threshold increase to a point of being sick or an "Event"

add in the junk in the food and water and well...you see where this all leads

 

[Delmania]

I'd wager at least 90% of the "physchological" causes of symptoms can be directly traced to things like ENVIRONMENT illness and other offshoots of toxicity to various degrees and processed differently by each person's specific DNA. Several pysch issues can be linked to specific crucial minerals or vitamins. But that won't make big pharma money

Semi relevant article to this thread and environmental factors: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...-was-easier-to-be-skinny-in-the-1980s/407974/

If veganism works to help people lose weight and stay healthy, I'd wager the reason is that it's mainly because a person is now actually paying to what and how much he is eating.

 

[Mineralogic]

Semi relevant article to this thread and environmental factors: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...-was-easier-to-be-skinny-in-the-1980s/407974/

If veganism works to help people lose weight and stay healthy, I'd wager the reason is that it's mainly because a person is now actually paying to what and how much he is eating.

exactly, I know this might sound basic..but it might trigger an AHA moment for some folks. If you are loaded up for years with toxicity from your food, your air, your water, etc...you are more than likely FORCING your body to Hold onto fat. Your body has a process to detox and move toxic elements out of your body. If you are already unhealthy in some regard and/or toxified as well, it's very likely going to store certain crap in fat reserves and get it away from the primary organs

its not like everyone who ingests chemicals, pollutants, etc...is then immediately processing and dumping it out of the body and then you are "Good to go"

plus there is other hormonal/methalyation issues. Lots of these issues compound and then kick into a toxic event for people later in life if their system was primed for years by living in a musty room, taking flouride and gmo all the time, already deficient in vitamins/minerals/real FOOD etc

so picture people who take DRUGS, who always have side effects by scientific LAW basically. How does that contribute to a normal toxic load that one has already? Now add in years of it building up?

People not only lose B12 absorption as they age into 40s, they lose gluthothione which is a master antioxidant and detoxer!!!!

 

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[ToniLene]

1. No, we're NOT authorities on nutrition. But we're far better than most 'experts' out there and perhaps lower down than PhDs/Research physicians who spend their careers studying nutrition.

2. Not true at all. I think about each and every one my patients and the honest truth is that most physicians do the same. That's an insulting comment dude.

Look, just like in life or the Universe, there's something called the Normal distribution:

What that means in practice is that 95% of ALL PATIENTS PRESENTING TO US fall within 2 standard deviations from the mean,or 'average' patient.
What that ALSO means is that 95% of PHYSICIANS will be within the same range of COMPETENCE.

If you want to narrow the intervals down, then ~70% of doctors and patients will be 'close to average' and that means that, honestly, common complaints/ailments really are COMMON.

Also realize that physicians are just like any other human system. If you have doctors that have rarely seen or managed very difficult or unusual cases then they're less likely to pick up something out of the norm. Though with the advent of the Internet and CME requirements and resources like the NEJM online, Medscape, PubMed and UpToDate, it's less and less acceptable to not at least be in the BALLPARK of the diagnosis.

Anyway, please don't belittle physicians as 'unthinking.' Most of what we see we have seen hundreds/thousands of times and we're employing heuristic analysis to decrease the mental energy/effort/impact on the patient (tests/radiation/pain) to arrive at a correct diagnosis/treatment algorithim. Only when a patient's symptoms are outside of the norm and/or dangerous do we get triggered to 'go farther down that route.'

Now for me, as an Emergency Medicine doctor, my first/last/always question when I see a patient is, "Is what they're complaining of, or what I am seeing/hearing/smelling indicative of a deadly or potentially deadly condition?" If YES, then it's big workup time. If not, then not and it can likely be worked up at a more leisurely pace with their doctor.

Add in the pressure from all sides to see more patients in less time and penalties for 'taking too long" to spend time with patients, and then you get situations where some things are just missed.

Finally (though not conclusively), probably 15% of all patient complaints and symptoms(not signs) are psychological in origin.

Peace.

I have to agree that a majority of doctors don't know anything about nutrition. Why is Pedialyte(which is pure trash) recommended rather than ORS(which is natural and more effective)? Why do doctors recommend Gatorade which is also trash from a nutritional standpoint? A nurse tried to give me Gatorade after I gave birth(natural, no meds)!

Not to mention the Glucose test drink that pregnant women are tricked into drinking to test for gestational diabetes? A pancake breakfast with orange juice would provide an accurate glucose reading, but hospitals have to sell that Glucose drink as they're contracted to do, so they would prefer pregnant women ingest trash rather than suggest healthy alternatives.

Every doctor that I've ever dealt with has recommended such garbage and of course when I tell them that I don't believe that product/drug is the best option, I'm looked at as the misinformed one. Many pediatricians are still giving kids antibiotics for ear infections, that's how bad the medical system is!

Rant over.

 

[Mineralogic]

I have to agree that a majority of doctors don't know anything about nutrition. Why is Pedialyte(which is pure trash) recommended rather than ORS(which is natural and more effective)? Why do doctors recommend Gatorade which is also trash from a nutritional standpoint? A nurse tried to give me Gatorade after I gave birth(natural, no meds)!

Not to mention the Glucose test drink that pregnant women are tricked into drinking to test for gestational diabetes? A pancake breakfast with orange juice would provide an accurate glucose reading, but hospitals have to sell that Glucose drink as they're contracted to do, so they would prefer pregnant women ingest trash rather than suggest healthy alternatives.

Every doctor that I've ever dealt with has recommended such garbage and of course when I tell them that I don't believe that product/drug is the best option, I'm looked at as the misinformed one. Many pediatricians are still giving kids antibiotics for ear infections, that's how bad the medical system is!

Rant over.

the majority of MD's know nothing about nutrition because they are not taught it, like maybe 3 credits out of all that studying they do..if that?

Clinical nutrition and areas where people have to choose to focus on nutrition is very exciting today including interactions with the field of epigenetics. There is so much scientific evidence on how powerful REAL NUTRITION can be, its almost like living in the dark ages sometimes.

 

[biggeemac]

Interesting thread.....I have become very interested in healthy living since my wife has been sick this year. She is recovered now.

That being said, a new think tank just started a youtube channel that I stumbled onto this morning. They are talking about this very subject, which they weren't able to be as liberal with when they were practicing doctors.....simply because the medical folks cant patent cures or make a lot of money when it comes to using food as medicine. It would drive me insane to know how to cure my patients and not really be able to guide them properly simply because of economics.

Anyway, thought this might be interesting to someone on this thread.

 

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[Nomangee]

the majority of MD's know nothing about nutrition because they are not taught it, like maybe 3 credits out of all that studying they do..if that?

Clinical nutrition and areas where people have to choose to focus on nutrition is very exciting today including interactions with the field of epigenetics. There is so much scientific evidence on how powerful REAL NUTRITION can be, its almost like living in the dark ages sometimes.

Thas one of the biggest Problems. MD's need in there 6+ years training around 6h in the field of nutrition for passing it, yep only one day. The reason is, all the big facilities who make up the tests and training for the education are owned by the drug industry. Also pharmaceutical companies have a highly aggressive marketing strategy towards doctors:

This corruption goes on and on....

Quite a good video to the topic, why a nurse quit after 17 years of practicing: http://www.chrisbeatcancer.com/oncology-nurse-quits-after-17-years/

 

[Mineralogic]

Thas one of the biggest Problems. MD's need in there 6+ years training around 6h in the field of nutrition for passing it, yep only one day. The reason is, all the big facilities who make up the tests and training for the education are owned by the drug industry. Also pharmaceutical companies have a highly aggressive marketing strategy towards doctors:

This corruption goes on and on....

Quite a good video to the topic, why a nurse quit after 17 years of practicing: http://www.chrisbeatcancer.com/oncology-nurse-quits-after-17-years/

excellent and very hard to do in today's system. Everything is set up so that to truly have integrity and honor you could potentially be setting yourself up for LESS MONEY/reward to tell the truth

there is also tons of research coming out showing how fungus is causing many types of cancers, even alzeheimers

 

[KCErnest]

I'm glad to see thinking individuals entered this post and said what I was too frustrated to continue on with.

It's funny that since everyone came in with research based knowledge debunking veganism, the OP hasn't shown his face again haha. Hopefully he is hitting the books and rethinking life choices that may have been made too hastily.

Great job everybody.

 

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[JustinBoshans]

That joke, which I never heared yet but yeah this topic is 100% about it and I only want to share my experience and maybe there are a few people in this forum who are thinking about trying the lifestyle. I have never told someone that I'm vegan, besides when it comes to eating and I need to explain why I can't eat it.

And yes I'm no hippy wongo bongo guy who is living on a tree Normal guy, who got sick and found a way to improve his health and compassion through diet.

But where do you get your protein broooooooooo???

You are going about it the right way. 3 year vegan here myself. I'm definitely not a hippie either, and know that if everyone suddenly became a vegan it would have a huge negative impact on society. That Gary Yourofsky speech is what got me into the ethics of veganism. At first I did it solely for health reasons.

 

[JustinBoshans]

The implication made is that most vegans come across as holier than thou individuals. I have no problem with people making informed decisions but it's a very accurate statement.

So what made you choose veganism over something that has more scientific reason behind it like Paleo(just an example)? It looks like you tried something that made you feel good and just decided to stop looking. Almost all hormones and neurotransmitters are made from cholesterol, which is very much lacking in a vegan diet.

I see this mentality coming from a lot of uninformed individuals who base the whole community on the actions of some of the more famous radical vegans, and a few individuals they have met. Is that you?

What is the more "scientific" reason for paleo?

 

[JustinBoshans]

If you want people to convert give them some actual evidence besides a 50 minute youtube video and your personal opinion.

The crappy thing about most of the evidence for ANY diet is for any study you cite there are 10 more saying that study is wrong.

The best argument for veganism currently is that meat is not necessary.

Basically debating evidence isn't helping vegans get very far. Most people will do something and conform to it if they think it's normal or they'll fit in.
Eating meat, normal. Not having animal products in your diet, not normal. Living on the sidewalk, normal. Starting a fastlane business, not normal. If veganism seemed normal it would be easier to get people to follow those practices.

The example used for this was a hotel trying to get people to reuse their towels. If they said "it helped the environment to reuse your towels" every now and then more people would reuse their towels. If they said "75% of people reused their towels" even more people reused their towels. If they said "75% of people who stay in room F20 reuse their towels" the majority of people reused their towels. Nobody wants to be that one a**hole who didn't do X thing.

 

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[Mineralogic]

I'm glad to see thinking individuals entered this post and said what I was too frustrated to continue on with.

It's funny that since everyone came in with research based knowledge debunking veganism, the OP hasn't shown his face again haha. Hopefully he is hitting the books and rethinking life choices that may have been made too hastily.

Great job everybody.

What do the proponents of veganism get out of it? Who is funding them?

 

[JustinBoshans]

Food (for me at least) is one of life's great passions. What would a vegan eat as a substitute to any of the following:

A piece of brie or camembert
Oysters
Bacon
Roast pork belly
Waygu steak
Bacon
Garlic prawns
Lobster bisque
Bacon
Pate
Chicken wings
Bacon
BBQ spare ribs
Snow crab sliders
Bacon

Did I mention bacon ?

For the whole bacon thing there is a seaweed called dulse. If you put it in a pan with a little oil it gets that salty sweet taste of bacon, and even has the crunch or chewiness of bacon.

I've never eaten a lot of the things you mentioned, I've not seen anything similar to pork chops or anything like that. For chicken wings there is a thing called seitan.

Following a vegan diet has made me a lot more inventive and resourceful when it comes to cooking.

 

[Mineralogic]

without enjoyment of eating life would be very boring

it reminds me of some of the SILICON Valley techno-droids who got sucked into the 100th rehash of a liquid protein shake diet via SOYLENT GREEN LOL. people were bragging that they don't eat real food anymore nor have time.

on the topic of bacon I believe you mean the NEW SEAWEAD GMO'd to taste like Bacon that made press recently correct? As far as i know, no one ever pimped regular seaweed as tasting like bacon until now

 

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[ToniLene]

The best argument for veganism currently is that meat is not necessary.

That's not much of an argument. What's necessary for you and what's necessary for me is based on two different criteria. Protein, b12 and iron from from plant based sources are not as bio-available as meat based protein, b12 and iron sources. That's just a fact.

 

[ToniLene]

For the whole bacon thing there is a seaweed called dulse. If you put it in a pan with a little oil it gets that salty sweet taste of bacon, and even has the crunch or chewiness of bacon.

I've never eaten a lot of the things you mentioned, I've not seen anything similar to pork chops or anything like that. For chicken wings there is a thing called seitan.

Following a vegan diet has made me a lot more inventive and resourceful when it comes to cooking.

Lol, are you really comparing chicken wings to seitan? I haven't eaten seitan in years, but it's not remotely similar to chicken. Like tofu, you can impart flavors onto it and deep fry it, but it's spongy in texture.

 

[Mineralogic]

That's not much of an argument. What's necessary for you and what's necessary for me is based on two different criteria. Protein, b12 and iron from from plant based sources are not as bio-available as meat based protein, b12 and iron sources. That's just a fact.

b12 was the eye opener when I completely researched this and deduced my own deficiency. Here is a crucial ENERGY/Nerve vitamin and its only passed thru to Humans via meat. And the government and other people pushing vegan look like they are soft killing people to have them only focus on carbs. I was eating tons of carbs btw when I got my deficiency as I avoided meat for a time being a bachelor who didn't want to cook it at home

The vegans then peddle eating bacteria in the soil, etc as if that was ever natural to a cavemen. LMFAO...eating dirt- a new low. meanwhile the soil changes depending on where you are. That is what is so key about learning about trace minerals and how tons are missing from the soil in your organic veggies! WINK WINK

b12 is so crucial its the only water soluble vitamin ( meaning the ones you PISS out all the time) that has a distinct storage capacity in the body

 

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[JustinBoshans]

b12 was the eye opener when I completely researched this and deduced my own deficiency. Here is a crucial ENERGY/Nerve vitamin and its only passed thru to Humans via meat. And the government and other people pushing vegan look like they are soft killing people to have them only focus on carbs. I was eating tons of carbs btw when I got my deficiency as I avoided meat for a time being a bachelor who didn't want to cook it at home

The vegans then peddle eating bacteria in the soil, etc as if that was ever natural to a cavemen. LMFAO...eating dirt- a new low. meanwhile the soil changes depending on where you are. That is what is so key about learning about trace minerals and how tons are missing from the soil in your organic veggies! WINK WINK

b12 is so crucial its the only water soluble vitamin ( meaning the ones you PISS out all the time) that has a distinct storage capacity in the body

An interesting study I found was where they took a bunch of people who were B12 deficient. Bacteria in our bodies produce B12, but it happens at a point past where we absorb it. They took extracts from their poop and it cured their deficiency. A lot of animals eat their own poop so if we're going with what cavemen did argument, maybe they ate their own poop and we should too.

One of the problems I have is with blood testing. It only shows serum blood levels and not what's actually in the rest of your cells. It's a good starting point but not the be all end all of being nutritionally satiated. Also, blood tests are within normal ranges and what do the majority of people eat?

I personally use nutritional yeast which is packed full of B12.

Final note, B12 deficiency is not an exclusively vegan/vegetarian problem.

Lol, are you really comparing chicken wings to seitan? I haven't eaten seitan in years, but it's not remotely similar to chicken. Like tofu, you can impart flavors onto it and deep fry it, but it's spongy in texture.

It all depends on how you cook it. While It is true that seitan will never be the exact same as chicken wings in terms of texture, when cooked right which has taken some trial and error, it can come close. Then again I'm not a very picky eater either.

 

[Mineralogic]

An interesting study I found was where they took a bunch of people who were B12 deficient. Bacteria in our bodies produce B12, but it happens at a point past where we absorb it. They took extracts from their poop and it cured their deficiency. A lot of animals eat their own poop so if we're going with what cavemen did argument, maybe they ate their own poop and we should too.

One of the problems I have is with blood testing. It only shows serum blood levels and not what's actually in the rest of your cells. It's a good starting point but not the be all end all of being nutritionally satiated. Also, blood tests are within normal ranges and what do the majority of people eat?

I personally use nutritional yeast which is packed full of B12.

Final note, B12 deficiency is not an exclusively vegan/vegetarian problem.



It all depends on how you cook it. While It is true that seitan will never be the exact same as chicken wings in terms of texture, when cooked right which has taken some trial and error, it can come close. Then again I'm not a very picky eater either.

Hi, yes, thats some of the stuff the vegans throw out regarding bacteria etc. Your body does get some B12 with the bacteria already living inside us and there are absorption issues and LIMITS as you mention. Man was not made to eat shit, so sorry all set with that

and I never argued for a true caveman diet. I say take the best ideas especially what works for you at a given technology level and use it.

Yes, you nailed it regarding blood testing!!!! Certain nutrients won't show up at correct levels when taking your MD's blood test! LOL. so it could show your magnesium is fine for example when you are deficient and in the hole!

I also KNOW, not believe, that many of the RDA's are a scam. Then add in the issues you are mentioning including absorption and binding issues and most people ARE deficient in today's world in multiple things at a time ...over time

Lastly, yes I was not vegan but on a high grain/processed food diet years ago intermixed with some meat and i was extremely deficient.