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For anyone who wants to become a freelancer (first)...

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MJ DeMarco

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@circleme -- really appreciate that you are sharing your experience.

As @Andy Black says, "JUST START" -- and you've started, discovered some things, and are plotting your moves forward. Good for you.

As others have stated, there are some mindset issues (either as a freelancer or a Fastlaner) that could be problematic.

Some users have done a good job of pointing those out.

Fastlaners have bosses too. Entrepreneurship can be 24/7 early in the game.

So a lot of your freelancing experience won't rectify itself in a Fastlane venture, at least not in the early stages. Lot of those things can be tackled with leadership and delegation.

The good news is, there is a meaningful upside moving forward.
 
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AnNvr

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@BizyDad is the General Hartmann of the FLF.

Petition to change your header beneath the username:

"Because I am hard, you will not like me. But the more you hate me, the more you will learn. I am hard but I am fair".

love your posts:clap::
 

Vigilante

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One thing I noticed about you, you’re fiercely loyal to your friends. Good quality to have! :thumbsup:
You’re probably just detecting my finely tuned dumbass repellant
 

Andy Black

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As @Andy Black says, "JUST START" -- and you've started, discovered some things, and are plotting your moves forward. Good for you.

To be fair, @Vigilante deliveres the same advice in half the words.


I'll drop another favourite line here:

"You can't steer a parked car." (James Schramko)
 
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RicardoGrande

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@circleme Thank you for posting about your experiences!

Taking the step alone to step out of a job that needed a degree to freelance is worthy of applause but you said you doubled your income with "less" hours worked/week (theoretically) which also deserves some lauding.

I can see the issues you discussed, mainly that at one point clients were reaching in around all hours to demand your time. Could you talk a little about the industry you worked in or the type of clients you were choosing? If you went back, do you think there's a way you'd structure your contracts and agreements to prevent some of those downsides?

I'm still in my dayjob and have been working around the clock for two years to take it full time and I'm just about to be able to. Of those I've worked with, I only have one that seems to be on my case but I've had an opposite experience freelancing where they bring me in, entrust me to make everything "work", and leave me at it. Now- I'm not doing anything with retainership yet which seems to have been a drag in your case, was this something that hit right out of the gate when you started offering them?

Looking back over it, was having the agency to execute how you wanted to and in more concentrated blocks for more pay a bad decision you'd just avoid? I've been doing test runs over my weekends and I like the structure a lot more than my dayjob and it's bull$h!t miniutiae and waiting around but I realize everyone has a different experience.

Best of luck in the new venture man!
 
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circleme

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I can see the issues you discussed, mainly that at one point clients were reaching in around all hours to demand your time. Could you talk a little about the industry you worked in or the type of clients you were choosing? If you went back, do you think there's a way you'd structure your contracts and agreements to prevent some of those downsides?
At the end of the day, it was almost exclusively Lead Gen clients. The business, as you can guess, is very much performance driven and once a customer is used to a certain level of steady leads, they want to maintain or even increase that level. Some clients were a bit over-sensitive here, if not greedy. I didn't really pick my customers, I took what went. As already mentioned, I didn't have the Fastlane knowledge or general "business" knowledge apart from my textbooks, so a paying customer who is not necessarily a dream customer was better than none.
Now- I'm not doing anything with retainership yet which seems to have been a drag in your case, was this something that hit right out of the gate when you started offering them?
A retainer is one of the coolest things there is when it comes to continuous cash flow. HOWEVER, it also means that there has to be ongoing performance. I sold my retainer in hourly packages. Means that unlike say a one off project, I knew the month before how much I was going to make the next month. It is wonderfully calculable. However, if I had the knowledge of the Fastlane earlier, I would rather go the One-Off route, because then I know that after finishing a project, the customer is gone again and I can focus more on my Fastlane business.

If you want to know more about retainer or MRR in my industry, I would recommend you reading @Andy Black 's posts. We were both in the same industry.
Looking back over it, was having the agency to execute how you wanted to and in more concentrated blocks for more pay a bad decision you'd just avoid?
Probably, yes.
 

circleme

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I'll reply to this in an hour or so, but you've got a lot of limiting beliefs that will carry over to your future endeavors unless you address them now.
@Simon Angel If you could still find the time, I would appreciate your input. It seems that in your opinion I should change something fundamental, which would of course be of burning interest to me, as I am very grateful for any constructive criticism.
 
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Simon Angel

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@circleme

Sorry for the late reply, personal life took precedence last night.

Here are some things that stood out to me from your OP:

The main reason why I considered freelancing was purely economic. Nothing more, nothing less. The reason (example):

  • Salaried hourly rate: $20 x 8 hours daily x 5= $800 for a week of work.
  • Freelancer hourly rate: 100$ x 8 hours daily = 800$ for the same output (800$ for one day of work, where I would normally have to work a week at the job).

That's a decent hourly rate, but I'd abolish hourly rates altogether and instead negotiate fixed rates with clients and/or commission-based pay.

For example, I used to write emails for $50/h when I was starting out with email marketing. I had clients who felt I was taking too long to write a single email and were prone to micromanaging me.

So for my next clients, I began proposing a fixed monthly rate that basically amounts to $150-200/h and we were ecstatic about it. For them, it was because they knew exactly how much I was going to charge them every month, and, after averaging out the revenue and profit I made them over the past few months, they knew I was making them a LOT of money.

For me, it was because I really only had to put in about 5 hours of work per month to get them the majority of their results.

The thing is that when you make people a lot of money, they get the impression that you must've spent a lot of time doing that for them. Which, as I said, isn't the case.

But if I were to actually propose they pay me $200/h, I can assure you they'd be very hesitant to agree.

I don't have/had ONE boss, but several, who got on my nerves

You have to position yourself as an independent contractor and NOT as an employee. Clients, whether intentionally or not, will test your boundaries all the time.

You owe yourself (and your client, for that matter) to set expectations from the get-go about your role in their business. If you truly know your shit, then act and talk like it. Because at the end of the day, results are all that matter, and if you've got the track record to back you up, you can essentially tell your clients that:
  • You will control the process. If they have a problem with it, they can find someone else.
  • You will not tolerate being micromanaged. If they have a problem with it, they can find someone else.
  • You will not be treated as an employee but as a business partner essentially. If they have a problem with it, they can find someone else.
  • You will openly accept ideas, suggestions, and client feedback but if your way is already getting them stellar results/completing objectives in time, then you will not follow them. And if they'd like to have it another way, they already know what they can do.

Now, this doesn't mean you have to LITERALLY tell them that. Just like that dude nobody messed with in high school because he seemed like he could tear you a new a**hole (even though nobody has EVER seen him fight!), the way you interact with and carry yourself around your clients should subconsciously—for the most part—communicate this. It comes with experience.

You are constantly contacted, even if your business hours are from X-Y; the customer doesn't care at all

Again, set expectations and boundaries. Plus, nobody is forcing you to get back to them outside of your business hours. If they ever give you shit for it, remind them that you do not work at the hours they reached out to you.

Give them a solid time estimate on the deliverables. Do your thing. And once you deliver, be open to feedback and criticism and work with your clients to make them happy...

Or tell them that their suggestions, although appreciated, won't actually lead to better results because of X and Y. If that's actually the case, of course.

You constantly have to justify yourself for certain other activities (like charging for point 3); customers only want to pay for the operational service, but not for things like support or queries

That's another communication error. Refer to what I wrote above.

Your performance is often not valued at all (you are just a part of a project and have to bring economic benefit, that's it!)

Seek credit where credit is due. Be very vocal about your contributions to the success of the project so that everyone from the top to the bottom of the food chain knows you're The Man.

You can never really switch off (my pricing model was on retainer basis, this is not necessarily the case for every freelancer, but I wanted MRR and clients mostly didn't care about my vacation (not everyone either, but some)

Lol, why should they care about YOUR vacation? You're thinking like an employee instead of a business. Do businesses go on vacation?

I frequently go on vacations and my clients have no idea because my BUSINESS doesn't. Just complete what you've set out to do in a timely manner—whether by working overtime to set everything up before your vacation or delegating to someone else.

And yes, freelancing can be like having a business provided you treat it as such.

You realize that you actually created a job that was initially considered better, but got worse as time went on

"It got" worse or did you make it worse by spinning your wheels?

I could probably list more points and I'm sure there are a few others on this forum who have had similar experiences as freelancers and would have more points up their sleeves as well, but I think the cons have come out pretty well.

You wanted constructive criticism, so don't take offense to this. I've been there and so have most of the commenters in this thread...

But the cons you speak of are mainly in your character rather than in freelancing.

Or, to put it another way, the issues you've stumbled upon do not exclusively pertain to freelancing, but business as a whole—and they're your responsibility.
 

Andy Black

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I don't know what this thread's about.


@circleme

You tagged me and said you're doing lead gen similar to what I'm doing so I'll reply.

I get the impression you might be throwing the baby out with the bath water.

If you want help with anything specific then ask in here, DM me, or we can hop on a Zoom sometime.


If you're doing similar to me then maybe these recent threads might help you:

If you've media buying skills then maybe check out @Lex DeVille 's thread here:

I also have a wee newsletter in my signature with a bonus lessons area that might help.
 

circleme

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I really appreciate the time you took and your input and had to think about it for a while before replying.

I take many of your points to heart as I see parallels to the business field, however, where we have come to what I see as a very important point:
And yes, freelancing can be like having a business provided you treat it as such.
I obviously don't have the experience you do, however with my current level of knowledge I can say that I don't see it that way at all, derived from the definition of Self Employment (where I would definitely classify Freelancing) and Entrepreneurship (people creating systems that work for you).

All your advice, if I interpreted it correctly, is along the lines of "how do I trade my time for money AS A FREELANCER more efficiently". Which is exactly what I am NOT looking for, as I believe that if you want to make a really good time vs money trade, you should leave that path. (Looking at the Fastlane as a solution) Be it for my sake building an agency based on the freelance "gig", but to flaunt freelancing - despite your input - as a positive I still think is very critical.

I think that in this respect we are simply of the opinion not to be of one mind.

Regarding:
You wanted constructive criticism, so don't take offense to this. I've been there and so have most of the commenters in this thread...
But the cons you speak of are mainly in your character rather than in freelancing."

I don't take your extremely constructive criticism - as already mentioned - as unpleasant or anything like that at all, and I'm very grateful to you for taking the extra time to do so. I also agree with almost all of your criticisms regarding freelancing. But I can only conditionally accept certain points of yours as "useful" (please don't misunderstand) for me, because I seem to have a different definition of what it means to be a freelancer and what it means to build a business.

Let's take for example one of MJ's videos, which fit very well to this current topic and our constructive "discussion":
View: https://youtu.be/r_58zPgArb4?t=416
stage 1-3 have in my opinion nothing to do with business, let alone with a fastlane, it's a pure time vs money trade (one better than the other). Point 3 here would be the most ideal Time vs Money trade, as you also described, by going into the realm of packages instead of hourly. Nonetheless, something that is tied to YOUR time. It is only from the time you meet the bid "T" (Time), among other things, that I see it as an actual business. Something you will never achieve with freelancing, but mur with the transition to an agency.

And here is my point: Freelancing could be seen as a kind of stepping stone to the "specialized unit", as MJ describes it, but if you have the possibility to go to level 4 (specialized unit/fastlane) right away, why not? But that's just my view of things, which I also wanted to emphasize with this thread.

That would be like someone telling me that in order to develop a SaaS product, I should learn programming for years first, then try my hand at freelancing for another few years, and only then develop my SaaS. Why not try to develop the SaaS right away? You have the struggle one way or the other.

And in my interpretation, that is also the #1 topic of this forum: To consider the Fastlane and to create a real COMPANY, which solves real-life problems and gives the people/companies what they need (=creates added value), and not to get stuck on a freelancing job - no matter how much it pays.
 
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Simon Angel

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All your advice, if I interpreted it correctly, is along the lines of "how do I trade my time for money AS A FREELANCER more efficiently". Which is exactly what I am NOT looking for, as I believe that if you want to make a really good time vs money trade, you should leave that path. (Looking at the Fastlane as a solution) Be it for my sake building an agency based on the freelance "gig", but to flaunt freelancing - despite your input - as a positive I still think is very critical.

If that's all you got out of my reply, then it appears I wasted my time.

I gave you practical advice on how to deal with clients regardless of whether you're working a job, freelancing, or running a service-based business.

But more importantly, I aimed to divert your attention to the issues you're attributing to freelancing, which are actually issues in your mentality that will follow you in all your business pursuits outside of your freelancing.

And what I got from your reply is that this completely went over your head as "advice on how to freelance more efficiently".

For the record, I don't care enough to be involved in this petty freelancing debate anymore.

But I couldn't help myself and point out the circlejerk that emerged once you posted your subjective opinion on freelancing (which is riddled with limiting beliefs and an external locus of control) and PROMIMENT forum members—that are notoriously anti-freelance—immediately jumped on the opportunity to praise your post because it helped drive their agenda forward.

But anyway, if you're still NOT sure who's actually interested in HELPING you rather than USING you, look at what the people agreeing with you are talking about.

Is it about YOU and giving you direction? No, it's only about how bad freelancing is, because that's what they've mostly been doing on the forum these past few months i.e. stirring shit for no reason.
 

BizyDad

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And here is my point: Freelancing could be seen as a kind of stepping stone to the "specialized unit", as MJ describes it, but if you have the possibility to go to level 4 (specialized unit/fastlane) right away, why not? But that's just my view of things, which I also wanted to emphasize with this thread.

I think this is an excellent point.

And I think this is the point that others have been trying to make as well.

Personally, one thing that I and others have pointed out is simply that not everyone can jump to level four right away.

For SOME of those people, freelancing CAN BE a stepping stone.

And so to suggest that freelancing sucks for everybody is just one of these over generalizations that is actually, on its face, untrue.

But anyway, if you're still NOT sure who's actually interested in HELPING you rather than USING you, look at what the people agreeing with you are talking about.

Is it about YOU and giving you direction? No, it's only about how bad freelancing is, because that's what they've mostly been doing on the forum these past few months i.e. stirring shit for no reason.

Okay, I think Simon Angel you're going a little too far here. No one is USING anyone.

@circleme is obviously his own man, with his own opinions about business. He's clearly thought his position through. He's entitled to his belief.

Those opinions happen to agree with prominent posters. There's nothing wrong with that, and I think you're being a little disrespectful to all parties involved.

We can all respectfully agree to disagree on some of these issues.

@BizyDad is the General Hartmann of the FLF.

Petition to change your header beneath the username:

"Because I am hard, you will not like me. But the more you hate me, the more you will learn. I am hard but I am fair".

love your posts:clap::

I've been called many things in my life...

Thank you for the compliment.

You wouldn't know it from my forum posts, but I actually rate quite high on agreeableness. :rofl:

"I'm not as hard as I sound, and I do try to be fair."
-Bizydad 2023
 

circleme

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And so to suggest that freelancing sucks for everybody is just one of these over generalizations that is actually, on its face, untrue.
Well, you're right. It's very subjective and definitely too generalized on my part and it took me a bit longer to get to the main argument, which didn't really come out of the initial thread of mine.
We can all respectfully agree to disagree on some of these issues.
Amen.
 
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circleme

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And since your last post is a pretty good end to this "disscusion", I really appreciate your input, and I still want to respond to @AnNvr 's comment,
"Because I am hard, you will not like me. But the more you hate me, the more you will learn. I am hard but I am fair".
I gave you another little gift @BizyDad :
flf.PNG
And yes, I was very productive today working on my Fastlane business and NO, I was not a Photoshop freelancer before.
 

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