Social Media Destroys Entrepreneurs. Grow Your Business Without It.

[MTF]

Any advice on how to move Instagram followers to another platform? Say a personal website of slack channel ?

That's the thing. You can't move them. You can only post stuff to encourage them to check out your platform but most of them won't see it anyway and since you'll be asking them to leave, it'll probably get even fewer views.

 

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[Xeon]

So essentially they're saying that it'll get more and more concentrated so unless you're already well-known, there's no way you'll ever succeed with organic growth alone. Quite similar to what is happening in self-publishing.

The only exception to that is that you're one of the few talented entertainers that can churn out viral content consistently. The type where when people sees your video, it's so relatable and good that they've no choice to share it and it explodes from there.

 

[Tony100]

I came across this:
"Even though almost all bloggers (97%) use social media, only 29% of them feel that they get good results from social media traffic."
(Source: Orbitmedia.com) [Data from 2019]

It is quite vague that the 29% only "feel" they get good results. If they quantified their business results from SM rather than just feeling then that number could be even lower.

I've got an Instagram account with 5k followers. According to some internet research I could sell that account for $150. It's really not a lot given the amount of effort it took to go from 0 followers to 5000.

 

[Andy Black]

So essentially they're saying that it'll get more and more concentrated so unless you're already well-known, there's no way you'll ever succeed with organic growth alone. Quite similar to what is happening in self-publishing.

Nicolas Cole brought up that lifecycle in his book.

 

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[MTF]

I came across this:
"Even though almost all bloggers (97%) use social media, only 29% of them feel that they get good results from social media traffic."
(Source: Orbitmedia.com) [Data from 2019]

My guess is that most bloggers get little traffic from social media for two reasons:

1. Blogs are old-fashioned. Promoting them on social media is awkward.
2. Most blogs get way more traffic from SEO and/or traffic from other blogs.

I've got an Instagram account with 5k followers. According to some internet research I could sell that account for $150. It's really not a lot given the amount of effort it took to go from 0 followers to 5000.

Lol that's ridiculous. I can imagine how much effort it can take to get to 5000 legitimate followers.

 

[MTF]

Nicolas Cole brought up that lifecycle in his book.

Was it in relation to the fact that you need to target the right, young enough platform if you want to make it big there? Or in other words, if Instagram sucks today then don't struggle there because it's a lost cause (you're too late) and it's better to go to, say, TikTok (where maybe you'll still be early enough).

 

[Tony100]

My guess is that most bloggers get little traffic from social media for two reasons:

1. Blogs are old-fashioned. Promoting them on social media is awkward.
2. Most blogs get way more traffic from SEO and/or traffic from other blogs.

What do you think about using social media as a tool for building a personal brand? For example if you were an online coach/consultant and had a website. Would you use social media, not as a source of website traffic but to generally raise brand awareness?

 

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[Andy Black]

Was it in relation to the fact that you need to target the right, young enough platform if you want to make it big there? Or in other words, if Instagram sucks today then don't struggle there because it's a lost cause (you're too late) and it's better to go to, say, TikTok (where maybe you'll still be early enough).

Yes. At the start a platform is trying to get growth (usually via funding) so rewards content creators with reach. Later on the platform needs to monetise the attention they’ve built, and throttles organic reach and replaces it with pay-to-play.

That’s straightforward. It’s just that Nicolas broke it down per platform.

And yeah, TikTok is in that growth phase. With YouTube releasing Shorts to counter it.

 

[MTF]

What do you think about using social media as a tool for building a personal brand? For example if you were an online coach/consultant and had a website. Would you use social media, not as a source of website traffic but to generally raise brand awareness?

For an online coach/consultant, IMO writing a book is a much better way to raise brand awareness. This, or podcast interviews or guest posts on industry blogs.

 

[Andy Black]

What do you think about using social media as a tool for building a personal brand? For example if you were an online coach/consultant and had a website. Would you use social media, not as a source of website traffic but to generally raise brand awareness?

Check out Laurel Portié’s content. She’s like me in that her goal on social media platforms isn’t to get “traffic”, but to get into conversation with people.

 

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[Tony100]

Check out Laurel Portié’s content. She’s like me in that her goal on social media platforms isn’t to get “traffic”, but to get into conversation with people.

You're right, it does depend on the situation. I think using it to get into direct conversation with people can be useful. Another example: a business author/podcaster I follow has a facebook group that is similar to this forum. The group is really active and has like minded business owners. He's built a strong community.

It really depends what your business is as to how useful social media is. My main point is that for a lot of businesses they are putting a lot of time into social media without calculating whether it is worth their time. As always, we should check the numbers!

Laurel Portié’s content looks interesting, I'll watch one of her video's later. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[Andy Black]

Over the years I've ended up making friends with many community owners.

I often get invited into people's paid groups for free.

Group owners tag me when someone has a question about XYZ. They even message me sometimes to let me know I've been tagged!

Think about why that keeps happening for me, and why I prefer that to publishing content daily on social media platforms.


These might help:

• How to use forums (and Facebook groups)
• Who have you helped?
• Clarity of Purpose
• Content Marketing - Kinda

 

[TonyStark]

That's the thing. You can't move them. You can only post stuff to encourage them to check out your platform but most of them won't see it anyway and since you'll be asking them to leave, it'll probably get even fewer views.

I believe that 100% lol

 

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[Ricardo Scotta]

For most entrepreneurs few things are worse than social media. You think it’s helpful while it’s a parasite that slowly kills you and your business.

Social media platforms have spent millions and millions to persuade us that they’re indispensable for business.

If you don’t exist on social media, you don’t exist at all.

What a joke.

We all know that social media can be bad for individuals. But it's poisonous for business, too, and you may be better off as an entrepreneur without it.

Not everyone will agree with this post and that’s okay. This thread is about showing a perspective counter to mainstream advice. It’s not the ultimate truth, though. I’m not saying EVERYONE has to avoid social media in business at all costs.

Note: by social media I refer to Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. I don’t consider YouTube social media (because it’s more of a search engine) or Reddit (because it’s just a giant forum with various subforums, similar to the Fastlane forum).

Warning: I swear in this post and I share my opinion in a blunt way. If you don’t like it, don’t read it.

Here are ten reasons why social media destroys entrepreneurs and their businesses:

1. You’re Putting More Effort Building Somebody Else’s Business Than Yours

Post ten times a day on Facebook (don’t forget about Facebook stories). Twenty times a day on Instagram (but thirty stories and forty reels). Upload ten videos on TikTok and don’t forget to tweet thirty times a day (and retweet another twenty tweets). It almost seems as if marketing today equals social media marketing.

Do it all AGAIN over and over again because the next day nobody sees your posts from the day before anyway. And if you ever figure out a way to crack the algorithm, it will soon change and you’ll be left behind again.

When you add it all up, you spend more time donating your time to social media platforms than spending it on your business. How ridiculous is that?

Few entrepreneurs ever calculate how much time, money, and effort they invest on social media. They don’t even know if they get a positive return from their investment.

That’s insanity. Not only you’re dedicating most of your business life to tasks that may not even be worth it. You’re also putting more effort building other people’s companies rather than yours.

Let me reiterate it because I find it f*cking incredible: did you start your OWN business to spend more time building somebody else’s?

How much do you enjoy being an unpaid Meta, TikTok or Twitter employee?

Is this what entrepreneurship comes down to these days? Filling the pockets of big, censor-happy corporations who don’t give two shits about you just so you can brag about your follower count?

2. You’re Only Getting Scraps

Even if you do everything right, at most maybe a few percent of your followers will see your posts. Out of them, only a few percent will take any action. Out of them, a few percent will do what you want them to do—buy your stuff.

In other words, you’re only getting scraps thrown at you by the social media platforms. And the more the platform grows, the less you get. It’s a natural growth cycle of every social media company. You can always count on the fact that they will grow at your expense.

You’re like that poor dog begging for food underneath the table. Only as time goes by, there are even more hungry dogs and less food on the table. Most goes into the mouths of the obese owners.

Moreover, social media platforms have a short lifespan so all your efforts are eventually for nothing. Ask anyone who has built a big following on Facebook how useful it is today. Meanwhile, a high-quality article on your own site can provide value for years.

3. You’re on a Never-Ending Content Treadmill

Social media gurus get on my nerves because their solution to any marketing problem is to post more. More, more, more, until you can’t do it anymore but you can’t stop because you’re afraid that if you stop, your business will end.

You become trapped on a content treadmill, posting endless amounts of content, begging to get some attention like an old wrinkly prostitute in flashy clothes.

The more you post, the faster the treadmill is. Since you can’t stop, you never have time and energy to reconsider what you’re doing and whether it’s the best strategy for your business.

Strategic thinking drowns in the sea of content you’re forced to produce every day just to stay afloat. And the worst thing is that whatever you produce, it’s often unsearchable and irrelevant the next day.

4. You Fail to Build What’s Most Important

The ONLY valuable asset in every business is a customer list. Yet, if you focus on social media, you fool yourself that your follower count is what defines your business.

You either spend time building your own platform or you build time spending other people’s platforms.

This forum is a great example of a platform standing on its own. I didn’t join it because I saw MJ on social media. I joined it because I read MJ’s book. I stayed because it’s an independent platform owned by a person who cares. For all I care, MJ may never post anything on social media. I want to read his content HERE, on his OWN platform.

Would your clients say the same about your business? Would they still work with you if you had no presence on social media?

Would you rather have 100,000 followers on social media or 1,000 loyal customers? (If you chose the former, sorry but there’s no hope for you LOL.)

5. You Judge the Value of the Business by the Number of Followers

My girlfriend has a podcast. She had a call with a potential guest today. The woman told her that she wasn’t sure if she wanted to be featured in my girlfriend’s podcast because “nothing happens on her Instagram profile.”

My girlfriend only posts images with new episodes on her Instagram profile. But if you checked the podcast’s archives, you’d see over 75 episodes posted religiously every week, featuring dozens of recognized in her niche guests.

That poor guest is so brainwashed. She thinks that an Instagram profile counts more than your real-world track record. To make matters worse, she was SHOCKED how my girlfriend got podcast listeners through something else than Instagram.

My girlfriend is not an Instagrammer. She owns a podcast. That’s her business, not posting daily vlogs or other bullshit from her everyday life. She doesn’t even want Instagram followers who spend a tenth of a second liking her random images. She wants real listeners who invest hours listening to her episodes.

There are so many businesses that have few, if any, social media followers, yet kill it WAY, WAY more than brands that obsess about social media.

Do you help people through selling your products or do you chase status through posting meaningless social media posts?

6. You Waste Time and Mental Energy on Drama and Addiction

Social media thrives because it appeals to our most basic instincts.

Everything is designed in such a way to get you hooked and keep you there for as long as possible. Notifications, real-time updates, live stories. Then there’s inevitable drama and bullshit politics that’s impossible to opt out of.

Instagram will always pester you with profiles of plastic surgery enhanced half naked models of both genders.

Twitter will always pester you with annoying politics no matter who you follow.

Both Facebook and TikTok will always steal your attention through idiotic short clips designed to captivate your brain whether you want it or not.

Even if you’re strong-willed, there’s NO WAY you won’t waste your life each time you visit any of the social media platforms for “business” purposes.

Is this how you want to spend your valuable time?

7. You’re Contributing to Producing Mountains of Garbage

Most content on social media is f*cking garbage. I need to swear here because there’s no other way to describe it.

Twitter relies on bullshit, supposedly clever, one-liners that say nothing. Yet, our brains like these empty platitudes. So, like idiots, we retweet them. Long form, well though-out content is rare these days because it’s too hard for most people to read something longer than 280 characters.

Instagram relies on even more bullshit soft porn pictures or other depictions of a “perfect” life along with even more idiotic empty quotes. Yet, we fall for this, too. It’s in our genes. There’s no way a healthy male is able to look away from a perfect pair of photoshopped boobs.

TikTok relies on cringeworthy, self-absorbed, completely retarded videos of teenagers thinking they do something meaningful. Yet, in their stupidity, they’re so captivating you find yourself watching one video after another. Later, you feel disgusted with yourself only to do it again the next time you “work” on TikTok.

Can you find valuable content on social media? Yes, you can. Not everything is garbage.

It doesn’t change the fact that most of social media content is utter junk. These platforms don’t reward in-depth content. They reward simplistic, controversial or straight up idiotic posts and videos.

Since people are so addicted to social media today, their attention spans are so short you have to transmit your message in a few seconds. What valuable things can you say in a few seconds? By default, you’re forced to contribute to this mountain of garbage every single day.

8. You’re Building an Unsellable Asset

It’s rare for most small businesses to succeed on social media. So, instead, most founders post under their own names. Their business becomes them. Yes, a personal brand may be valuable but a personal brand, as the name implies, is unsellable.

If this doesn’t bother you, then this point doesn’t apply to you. Yet, I’d urge every entrepreneur to think about a potential exit strategy. If you’re building your business through promoting yourself, then most likely you won’t be able to sell it in the future.

9. You Fail to See Other Opportunities

People new to business, particularly those who don’t remember the world before social media, assume that EVERY business needs to be on social media. They focus only on those business ideas that have a social media presence, ignoring the wealth of other possible opportunities.

Boring, but essential B2B businesses? Nah, where will I get my followers?

Offline businesses without an online presence other than a simple website? No way, how will I brag about my biz?

Low-key business models that rely on joint ventures and deal-making rather than social media content? No thanks, I’m too busy building my “credibility” on social media.

10. You Do What Everyone Else Is Doing

Being an entrepreneur means full responsibility for your decisions but also complete freedom over how you want to run your business.

Unfortunately, most people let the prevailing narrative dictate how they’ll approach their ventures.

If the “only” way to succeed is through fifty social media posts a day, let’s do it.

If the “only” way to succeed is through showing your boobs to horny teenagers (who will not buy your products anyway), let’s do it.

If the “only” way to succeed is through being a complete idiot dancing like a drunk moose, let’s do it.

Don’t be a sheep. Use your brain. Create YOUR business on YOUR OWN terms rather than letting social media corporations bully you into using their toxic platforms.

There, I said it.

Thoughts, love, hate—all welcome.

Well, maybe you are saving me a lot of time.
So, thank you.
I have a small sales brand that I started because a marketing digital course.
I started with a site, after a i went on youtube, twitter, last night i made my first pin on pinterest.
And guess what?
The most of my sales came from for other site that a have no mention on my social medias...
Until read this post, I was thinking... well, maybe a I need more folowers...
Thank you again!

 

[bakhman]

I had the same experience when I was working as a DJ when taking a break from my career a couple years ago. A fellow "entrepreneur" suggested I make an FB page, deliver tons of content like music reviews, photos, and mixtapes, and after 4-5 months of that, absolutely nothing came of it. I even bought fake followers. Literally got 15 likes across 50 posts.

Networking will always be superior.

 

[Move the chains]

For most entrepreneurs few things are worse than social media. You think it’s helpful while it’s a parasite that slowly kills you and your business.

Social media platforms have spent millions and millions to persuade us that they’re indispensable for business.

If you don’t exist on social media, you don’t exist at all.

What a joke.

We all know that social media can be bad for individuals. But it's poisonous for business, too, and you may be better off as an entrepreneur without it.

Not everyone will agree with this post and that’s okay. This thread is about showing a perspective counter to mainstream advice. It’s not the ultimate truth, though. I’m not saying EVERYONE has to avoid social media in business at all costs.

Note: by social media I refer to Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. I don’t consider YouTube social media (because it’s more of a search engine) or Reddit (because it’s just a giant forum with various subforums, similar to the Fastlane forum).

Warning: I swear in this post and I share my opinion in a blunt way. If you don’t like it, don’t read it.

Here are ten reasons why social media destroys entrepreneurs and their businesses:

1. You’re Putting More Effort Building Somebody Else’s Business Than Yours

Post ten times a day on Facebook (don’t forget about Facebook stories). Twenty times a day on Instagram (but thirty stories and forty reels). Upload ten videos on TikTok and don’t forget to tweet thirty times a day (and retweet another twenty tweets). It almost seems as if marketing today equals social media marketing.

Do it all AGAIN over and over again because the next day nobody sees your posts from the day before anyway. And if you ever figure out a way to crack the algorithm, it will soon change and you’ll be left behind again.

When you add it all up, you spend more time donating your time to social media platforms than spending it on your business. How ridiculous is that?

Few entrepreneurs ever calculate how much time, money, and effort they invest on social media. They don’t even know if they get a positive return from their investment.

That’s insanity. Not only you’re dedicating most of your business life to tasks that may not even be worth it. You’re also putting more effort building other people’s companies rather than yours.

Let me reiterate it because I find it f*cking incredible: did you start your OWN business to spend more time building somebody else’s?

How much do you enjoy being an unpaid Meta, TikTok or Twitter employee?

Is this what entrepreneurship comes down to these days? Filling the pockets of big, censor-happy corporations who don’t give two shits about you just so you can brag about your follower count?

2. You’re Only Getting Scraps

Even if you do everything right, at most maybe a few percent of your followers will see your posts. Out of them, only a few percent will take any action. Out of them, a few percent will do what you want them to do—buy your stuff.

In other words, you’re only getting scraps thrown at you by the social media platforms. And the more the platform grows, the less you get. It’s a natural growth cycle of every social media company. You can always count on the fact that they will grow at your expense.

You’re like that poor dog begging for food underneath the table. Only as time goes by, there are even more hungry dogs and less food on the table. Most goes into the mouths of the obese owners.

Moreover, social media platforms have a short lifespan so all your efforts are eventually for nothing. Ask anyone who has built a big following on Facebook how useful it is today. Meanwhile, a high-quality article on your own site can provide value for years.

3. You’re on a Never-Ending Content Treadmill

Social media gurus get on my nerves because their solution to any marketing problem is to post more. More, more, more, until you can’t do it anymore but you can’t stop because you’re afraid that if you stop, your business will end.

You become trapped on a content treadmill, posting endless amounts of content, begging to get some attention like an old wrinkly prostitute in flashy clothes.

The more you post, the faster the treadmill is. Since you can’t stop, you never have time and energy to reconsider what you’re doing and whether it’s the best strategy for your business.

Strategic thinking drowns in the sea of content you’re forced to produce every day just to stay afloat. And the worst thing is that whatever you produce, it’s often unsearchable and irrelevant the next day.

4. You Fail to Build What’s Most Important

The ONLY valuable asset in every business is a customer list. Yet, if you focus on social media, you fool yourself that your follower count is what defines your business.

You either spend time building your own platform or you build time spending other people’s platforms.

This forum is a great example of a platform standing on its own. I didn’t join it because I saw MJ on social media. I joined it because I read MJ’s book. I stayed because it’s an independent platform owned by a person who cares. For all I care, MJ may never post anything on social media. I want to read his content HERE, on his OWN platform.

Would your clients say the same about your business? Would they still work with you if you had no presence on social media?

Would you rather have 100,000 followers on social media or 1,000 loyal customers? (If you chose the former, sorry but there’s no hope for you LOL.)

5. You Judge the Value of the Business by the Number of Followers

My girlfriend has a podcast. She had a call with a potential guest today. The woman told her that she wasn’t sure if she wanted to be featured in my girlfriend’s podcast because “nothing happens on her Instagram profile.”

My girlfriend only posts images with new episodes on her Instagram profile. But if you checked the podcast’s archives, you’d see over 75 episodes posted religiously every week, featuring dozens of recognized in her niche guests.

That poor guest is so brainwashed. She thinks that an Instagram profile counts more than your real-world track record. To make matters worse, she was SHOCKED how my girlfriend got podcast listeners through something else than Instagram.

My girlfriend is not an Instagrammer. She owns a podcast. That’s her business, not posting daily vlogs or other bullshit from her everyday life. She doesn’t even want Instagram followers who spend a tenth of a second liking her random images. She wants real listeners who invest hours listening to her episodes.

There are so many businesses that have few, if any, social media followers, yet kill it WAY, WAY more than brands that obsess about social media.

Do you help people through selling your products or do you chase status through posting meaningless social media posts?

6. You Waste Time and Mental Energy on Drama and Addiction

Social media thrives because it appeals to our most basic instincts.

Everything is designed in such a way to get you hooked and keep you there for as long as possible. Notifications, real-time updates, live stories. Then there’s inevitable drama and bullshit politics that’s impossible to opt out of.

Instagram will always pester you with profiles of plastic surgery enhanced half naked models of both genders.

Twitter will always pester you with annoying politics no matter who you follow.

Both Facebook and TikTok will always steal your attention through idiotic short clips designed to captivate your brain whether you want it or not.

Even if you’re strong-willed, there’s NO WAY you won’t waste your life each time you visit any of the social media platforms for “business” purposes.

Is this how you want to spend your valuable time?

7. You’re Contributing to Producing Mountains of Garbage

Most content on social media is f*cking garbage. I need to swear here because there’s no other way to describe it.

Twitter relies on bullshit, supposedly clever, one-liners that say nothing. Yet, our brains like these empty platitudes. So, like idiots, we retweet them. Long form, well though-out content is rare these days because it’s too hard for most people to read something longer than 280 characters.

Instagram relies on even more bullshit soft porn pictures or other depictions of a “perfect” life along with even more idiotic empty quotes. Yet, we fall for this, too. It’s in our genes. There’s no way a healthy male is able to look away from a perfect pair of photoshopped boobs.

TikTok relies on cringeworthy, self-absorbed, completely retarded videos of teenagers thinking they do something meaningful. Yet, in their stupidity, they’re so captivating you find yourself watching one video after another. Later, you feel disgusted with yourself only to do it again the next time you “work” on TikTok.

Can you find valuable content on social media? Yes, you can. Not everything is garbage.

It doesn’t change the fact that most of social media content is utter junk. These platforms don’t reward in-depth content. They reward simplistic, controversial or straight up idiotic posts and videos.

Since people are so addicted to social media today, their attention spans are so short you have to transmit your message in a few seconds. What valuable things can you say in a few seconds? By default, you’re forced to contribute to this mountain of garbage every single day.

8. You’re Building an Unsellable Asset

It’s rare for most small businesses to succeed on social media. So, instead, most founders post under their own names. Their business becomes them. Yes, a personal brand may be valuable but a personal brand, as the name implies, is unsellable.

If this doesn’t bother you, then this point doesn’t apply to you. Yet, I’d urge every entrepreneur to think about a potential exit strategy. If you’re building your business through promoting yourself, then most likely you won’t be able to sell it in the future.

9. You Fail to See Other Opportunities

People new to business, particularly those who don’t remember the world before social media, assume that EVERY business needs to be on social media. They focus only on those business ideas that have a social media presence, ignoring the wealth of other possible opportunities.

Boring, but essential B2B businesses? Nah, where will I get my followers?

Offline businesses without an online presence other than a simple website? No way, how will I brag about my biz?

Low-key business models that rely on joint ventures and deal-making rather than social media content? No thanks, I’m too busy building my “credibility” on social media.

10. You Do What Everyone Else Is Doing

Being an entrepreneur means full responsibility for your decisions but also complete freedom over how you want to run your business.

Unfortunately, most people let the prevailing narrative dictate how they’ll approach their ventures.

If the “only” way to succeed is through fifty social media posts a day, let’s do it.

If the “only” way to succeed is through showing your boobs to horny teenagers (who will not buy your products anyway), let’s do it.

If the “only” way to succeed is through being a complete idiot dancing like a drunk moose, let’s do it.

Don’t be a sheep. Use your brain. Create YOUR business on YOUR OWN terms rather than letting social media corporations bully you into using their toxic platforms.

There, I said it.

Thoughts, love, hate—all welcome.

A lot of very valid points.

I think it's become a bit of a necessary evil in a lot of cases, depending on the industry your in.

Like most things in the tech world...they make a great slave but a terrible master.

Agree 100% that there are way too many sheep who are blinding being led down a dangerous path and haven't ever paused to question how they're being used.

 

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[MTF]

Reposted from the random thread because it's relevant here:

How creators expand their influence beyond social media

For many content creators, Instagram isn’t everything. In the US, 41.0% of creators run websites or blogs to reach their audiences outside of social media. Newsletters and podcasts are also tools they use to staying connected. But perhaps most notably, 43.3% do not use anything other than social...

www.emarketer.com

In other words, 43.3% of creators will be F*cked sooner or later.

 

[MTF]

Also, interesting discussion on IndieHackers about the same topic:

Last week I left Twitter, Instagram & Product Hunt

*Disclaimer: this post only represents my personal views* Last week, I decided to close my accounts on Twitter, Instagram (and Product Hunt). Why? Becau...

www.indiehackers.com

 

[Andy Black]

Also, interesting discussion on IndieHackers about the same topic:

Last week I left Twitter, Instagram & Product Hunt

*Disclaimer: this post only represents my personal views* Last week, I decided to close my accounts on Twitter, Instagram (and Product Hunt). Why? Becau...

www.indiehackers.com

The end of that article finishes with this:

“What about you? I've seen Indie Hackers discussing how to promote products without social media”

That’s where he’s going wrong imo. He’s promoting products rather than building relationships or figuring out what people want. It doesn’t matter what platform he goes to if his goal is wrong.

 

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[MTF]

The end of that article finishes with this:

“What about you? I've seen Indie Hackers discussing how to promote products without social media”

That’s where he’s going wrong imo. He’s promoting products rather than building relationships or figuring out what people want. It doesn’t matter what platform he goes to if his goal is wrong.

IMO their point was that even if you're there to build relationships, it'll still suck because most people there have ulterior motives.

That's why the thread starter moved to the smaller platforms that aren't Iike that.

 

[Andy Black]

IMO their point was that even if you're there to build relationships, it'll still suck because most people there have ulterior motives.

That's why the thread starter moved to the smaller platforms that aren't Iike that.

My initial experience on Twitter was great. I was on small tech communities and got to know loads of people and had loads of DMs and Zoom calls.

When I switched to what the content marketers were advising it wasn’t as much fun or effective for me.

I don’t think it’s the size of the platform, but the goals and mindset of the people you interact with. You can be in a large community with a great sense of community (like this forum), or a small one that’s just spammy content marketers.

My later experience on Twitter was awful. The circles I was in had somehow changed and I was seeing faker “fortune cookie” tweets instead of genuine tweets. Agreed that there’s a lot of that on Twitter, but there’s still good communities, and maybe an opportunity to stand out?

 

[MTF]

Another relevant discussion on Indie Hackers with some examples of people doing well without social media:

How did you make it without social media?

**A lot of fellow Indie Hackers - including myself - have been led to believe that you could not build a successful business without building an audienc...

www.indiehackers.com

 

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[MTF]

Someone asked me in a PM about the best marketing strategy alternatives to social media. Here are some of my thoughts (I'm NOT a marketing expert and this is just me brainstorming):

• Influencer marketing. This probably sounds a bit counterintuitive but hear me out... Instead of investing your own time and effort into creating social media content (and most likely getting little in return because you're an entrepreneur, not a social media celebrity), what if you delegated this job and hired some influencers in your niche? This way, they do what they do best and you do what you do best. Influencer marketing is like borrowing trust and reputation so it can quickly help you position as a serious player in your industry. There are at least a few successful businesses I've learned about through YouTubers promoting or endorsing them, for example CuriosityStream, Nebula, and StoryBlocks.
• SEO. I wouldn't rely on SEO alone as Google is as unpredictable as social media platforms. Still, for many businesses it's one of the main sources of traffic and may provide excellent results for years, without any extra work once your articles rank well.
• Paid advertising on big platforms like Google, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Bing, Twitter, LinkedIn, Pinterest, etc. You can spend time creating free content for these platforms or spend money to advertise on them and use your time for something that produces better returns. It can be very scalable (but also risky if the platform bans you for violating some obscure guidelines).
• Marketing on non-social-media content platforms: newsletters, podcasts, blogs. Many of them offer sponsorships as well as custom deals where they can, for example, become your brand's ambassadors. Since you'll be usually talking directly with the person behind them, it's also a great way to build relationships (which is impossible when using paid advertising on big platforms).
• Sharing your expertise. Find relevant podcasts where you can be a guest. Write guest posts for popular blogs. Do AMAs. Answer questions on Quora. Find journalists who write articles about your niche and connect with them (Help A Reporter might be good for that).
• Community marketing. Find relevant communities (forums, chat groups, subreddits). Participate in them. Provide value and build your reputation. Reach out directly to people who are interested in learning more about what you do.
• Cold outreach marketing. Cold calls and emails can still work. Don't just send spammy emails, though. Personalize each email and put more effort into reaching out to potential prospects.
• Conference/event marketing. If you're selling something a bit more expensive, you can sell it as you're attending conferences/events with people who are your target audience. I believe one of the key reasons why Tim Ferriss' 4HWW book took off so much was because he kept asking top players at conferences to read and review his book.
• Word of mouth/referral marketing. These won't start right away but once you have enough clients, it's possible you won't have to do much other than focus on encouraging them to spread the word about your business. This also includes rewards for referring new clients.
• JVs (joint ventures) and affiliate marketing. Jay Abraham has some excellent resources on how to structure JVs and access other people's assets to grow your business. Affiliate marketing can also work as long as you convince successful marketers to promote your products.
• Marketplaces/existing platforms marketing. I built my self-publishing business exclusively through leveraging Amazon's platform and organic reach. Other examples include developing Shopify plugins or themes for specific platforms, for example WordPress or Ghost. The idea is to sell your product where people are actively searching for it.
• Acquisition marketing. Find an existing platform (blog, newsletter, podcast, community, website) that has already attracted your target audience. Buy it and use it to promote your business (but do it smartly, without killing the website). Rinse and repeat.
• Discount/deal websites marketing. This includes participating in time-limited big bundles or getting your product listed on a platform like AppSumo.
• Branded product marketing. If you have a cool product, brand it in such a way that the friends of your customer will instantly know where to get one for themselves. This also includes stuff like "powered by" for online tools (for example, email marketing or landing page providers). In other words, make each customer a walking free advertisement.
• Marketing through advocacy. Start a foundation or an association that advocates a cause relevant to the people who are in your target audience. For example, if you're selling barefoot running sandals, you can start an association of barefoot runners.
• Marketing through a cause. Any business model that incorporates a non-profit element in it (for example, "buy one and we'll donate one" or "10% of profits go to X") can benefit a lot from increased exposure and goodwill.

I probably forgot some ideas but I think it's a good start.

 

[MTF]

Some time ago I listened to an interview with David Goggins. He said that he hates social media but uses it because that's how he can spread the message.

I think that's a good exception to my thread. Some businesses, particularly those driven by a powerful message/purpose, may benefit from social media assuming that their primary goal isn't just making money but reaching as many people as possible.

 

[Fiza Hanif]

For most entrepreneurs few things are worse than social media. You think it’s helpful while it’s a parasite that slowly kills you and your business.

Social media platforms have spent millions and millions to persuade us that they’re indispensable for business.

If you don’t exist on social media, you don’t exist at all.

What a joke.

We all know that social media can be bad for individuals. But it's poisonous for business, too, and you may be better off as an entrepreneur without it.

Not everyone will agree with this post and that’s okay. This thread is about showing a perspective counter to mainstream advice. It’s not the ultimate truth, though. I’m not saying EVERYONE has to avoid social media in business at all costs.

Note: by social media I refer to Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. I don’t consider YouTube social media (because it’s more of a search engine) or Reddit (because it’s just a giant forum with various subforums, similar to the Fastlane forum).

Warning: I swear in this post and I share my opinion in a blunt way. If you don’t like it, don’t read it.

Here are ten reasons why social media destroys entrepreneurs and their businesses:

1. You’re Putting More Effort Building Somebody Else’s Business Than Yours

Post ten times a day on Facebook (don’t forget about Facebook stories). Twenty times a day on Instagram (but thirty stories and forty reels). Upload ten videos on TikTok and don’t forget to tweet thirty times a day (and retweet another twenty tweets). It almost seems as if marketing today equals social media marketing.

Do it all AGAIN over and over again because the next day nobody sees your posts from the day before anyway. And if you ever figure out a way to crack the algorithm, it will soon change and you’ll be left behind again.

When you add it all up, you spend more time donating your time to social media platforms than spending it on your business. How ridiculous is that?

Few entrepreneurs ever calculate how much time, money, and effort they invest on social media. They don’t even know if they get a positive return from their investment.

That’s insanity. Not only you’re dedicating most of your business life to tasks that may not even be worth it. You’re also putting more effort building other people’s companies rather than yours.

Let me reiterate it because I find it f*cking incredible: did you start your OWN business to spend more time building somebody else’s?

How much do you enjoy being an unpaid Meta, TikTok or Twitter employee?

Is this what entrepreneurship comes down to these days? Filling the pockets of big, censor-happy corporations who don’t give two shits about you just so you can brag about your follower count?

2. You’re Only Getting Scraps

Even if you do everything right, at most maybe a few percent of your followers will see your posts. Out of them, only a few percent will take any action. Out of them, a few percent will do what you want them to do—buy your stuff.

In other words, you’re only getting scraps thrown at you by the social media platforms. And the more the platform grows, the less you get. It’s a natural growth cycle of every social media company. You can always count on the fact that they will grow at your expense.

You’re like that poor dog begging for food underneath the table. Only as time goes by, there are even more hungry dogs and less food on the table. Most goes into the mouths of the obese owners.

Moreover, social media platforms have a short lifespan so all your efforts are eventually for nothing. Ask anyone who has built a big following on Facebook how useful it is today. Meanwhile, a high-quality article on your own site can provide value for years.

3. You’re on a Never-Ending Content Treadmill

Social media gurus get on my nerves because their solution to any marketing problem is to post more. More, more, more, until you can’t do it anymore but you can’t stop because you’re afraid that if you stop, your business will end.

You become trapped on a content treadmill, posting endless amounts of content, begging to get some attention like an old wrinkly prostitute in flashy clothes.

The more you post, the faster the treadmill is. Since you can’t stop, you never have time and energy to reconsider what you’re doing and whether it’s the best strategy for your business.

Strategic thinking drowns in the sea of content you’re forced to produce every day just to stay afloat. And the worst thing is that whatever you produce, it’s often unsearchable and irrelevant the next day.

4. You Fail to Build What’s Most Important

The ONLY valuable asset in every business is a customer list. Yet, if you focus on social media, you fool yourself that your follower count is what defines your business.

You either spend time building your own platform or you build time spending other people’s platforms.

This forum is a great example of a platform standing on its own. I didn’t join it because I saw MJ on social media. I joined it because I read MJ’s book. I stayed because it’s an independent platform owned by a person who cares. For all I care, MJ may never post anything on social media. I want to read his content HERE, on his OWN platform.

Would your clients say the same about your business? Would they still work with you if you had no presence on social media?

Would you rather have 100,000 followers on social media or 1,000 loyal customers? (If you chose the former, sorry but there’s no hope for you LOL.)

5. You Judge the Value of the Business by the Number of Followers

My girlfriend has a podcast. She had a call with a potential guest today. The woman told her that she wasn’t sure if she wanted to be featured in my girlfriend’s podcast because “nothing happens on her Instagram profile.”

My girlfriend only posts images with new episodes on her Instagram profile. But if you checked the podcast’s archives, you’d see over 75 episodes posted religiously every week, featuring dozens of recognized in her niche guests.

That poor guest is so brainwashed. She thinks that an Instagram profile counts more than your real-world track record. To make matters worse, she was SHOCKED how my girlfriend got podcast listeners through something else than Instagram.

My girlfriend is not an Instagrammer. She owns a podcast. That’s her business, not posting daily vlogs or other bullshit from her everyday life. She doesn’t even want Instagram followers who spend a tenth of a second liking her random images. She wants real listeners who invest hours listening to her episodes.

There are so many businesses that have few, if any, social media followers, yet kill it WAY, WAY more than brands that obsess about social media.

Do you help people through selling your products or do you chase status through posting meaningless social media posts?

6. You Waste Time and Mental Energy on Drama and Addiction

Social media thrives because it appeals to our most basic instincts.

Everything is designed in such a way to get you hooked and keep you there for as long as possible. Notifications, real-time updates, live stories. Then there’s inevitable drama and bullshit politics that’s impossible to opt out of.

Instagram will always pester you with profiles of plastic surgery enhanced half naked models of both genders.

Twitter will always pester you with annoying politics no matter who you follow.

Both Facebook and TikTok will always steal your attention through idiotic short clips designed to captivate your brain whether you want it or not.

Even if you’re strong-willed, there’s NO WAY you won’t waste your life each time you visit any of the social media platforms for “business” purposes.

Is this how you want to spend your valuable time?

7. You’re Contributing to Producing Mountains of Garbage

Most content on social media is f*cking garbage. I need to swear here because there’s no other way to describe it.

Twitter relies on bullshit, supposedly clever, one-liners that say nothing. Yet, our brains like these empty platitudes. So, like idiots, we retweet them. Long form, well though-out content is rare these days because it’s too hard for most people to read something longer than 280 characters.

Instagram relies on even more bullshit soft porn pictures or other depictions of a “perfect” life along with even more idiotic empty quotes. Yet, we fall for this, too. It’s in our genes. There’s no way a healthy male is able to look away from a perfect pair of photoshopped boobs.

TikTok relies on cringeworthy, self-absorbed, completely retarded videos of teenagers thinking they do something meaningful. Yet, in their stupidity, they’re so captivating you find yourself watching one video after another. Later, you feel disgusted with yourself only to do it again the next time you “work” on TikTok.

Can you find valuable content on social media? Yes, you can. Not everything is garbage.

It doesn’t change the fact that most of social media content is utter junk. These platforms don’t reward in-depth content. They reward simplistic, controversial or straight up idiotic posts and videos.

Since people are so addicted to social media today, their attention spans are so short you have to transmit your message in a few seconds. What valuable things can you say in a few seconds? By default, you’re forced to contribute to this mountain of garbage every single day.

8. You’re Building an Unsellable Asset

It’s rare for most small businesses to succeed on social media. So, instead, most founders post under their own names. Their business becomes them. Yes, a personal brand may be valuable but a personal brand, as the name implies, is unsellable.

If this doesn’t bother you, then this point doesn’t apply to you. Yet, I’d urge every entrepreneur to think about a potential exit strategy. If you’re building your business through promoting yourself, then most likely you won’t be able to sell it in the future.

9. You Fail to See Other Opportunities

People new to business, particularly those who don’t remember the world before social media, assume that EVERY business needs to be on social media. They focus only on those business ideas that have a social media presence, ignoring the wealth of other possible opportunities.

Boring, but essential B2B businesses? Nah, where will I get my followers?

Offline businesses without an online presence other than a simple website? No way, how will I brag about my biz?

Low-key business models that rely on joint ventures and deal-making rather than social media content? No thanks, I’m too busy building my “credibility” on social media.

10. You Do What Everyone Else Is Doing

Being an entrepreneur means full responsibility for your decisions but also complete freedom over how you want to run your business.

Unfortunately, most people let the prevailing narrative dictate how they’ll approach their ventures.

If the “only” way to succeed is through fifty social media posts a day, let’s do it.

If the “only” way to succeed is through showing your boobs to horny teenagers (who will not buy your products anyway), let’s do it.

If the “only” way to succeed is through being a complete idiot dancing like a drunk moose, let’s do it.

Don’t be a sheep. Use your brain. Create YOUR business on YOUR OWN terms rather than letting social media corporations bully you into using their toxic platforms.

There, I said it.

Thoughts, love, hate—all welcome.

Wow!!! Suuuper valuable info. Thanks for sharing all this wisdom

 

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[MTF]

In an effort to question my beliefs, I recently started testing Twitter. So far, my opinion of social media hasn't changed.

Here are my thoughts on Twitter so far:

• It feels a little like a weird networking event where you pretend not to be there to get something in return yet you clearly do. It feels sleazy.
• You can easily reply to other people's tweets but usually they won't reply back, even if they're a small account. It looks like many people on Twitter like to talk AT people but not WITH people.
• So many gurus and people who pretend they know all the secrets of life. A forceful, I-know-it-all tone is so prevalent on Twitter and so annoying.
• Some seriously f*cked up communities with toxic, completely insane views they treat like gospel (like masculinity).
• A lot of very popular profiles tweeting cheap self-help platitudes. I wonder why so many people find shit like "The opposite of love is not hate but indifference" so insightful.
• A lot of bots or scammy crypto accounts.
• I feel like an idiot after spending a few hundred dollars on Twitter Ads and getting so little in return. But like I said, I'm trying to question my beliefs and trying to give it a fair chance.
• During the day, I find myself trying to come up with an idea for a tweet. I don't like this feeling AT ALL.
• I check Twitter way too often to find tweets to reply to hoping I'll get some exposure. I don't like this feeling, either. Feels like begging like a needy loser.

All in all, after just a few days of using Twitter I'm NOT a fan. I'm trying to approach it as a relationship-building tool but I don't think I'm cool enough to join that party. Still giving it a go but my motivation to keep doing it dropped pretty much overnight to zero. My patience is running out super fast with social media.

 

[Mathuin]

You can easily reply to other people's tweets but usually they won't reply back, even if they're a small account. It looks like many people on Twitter like to talk AT people but not WITH people.

It feels a little like a weird networking event where you pretend not to be there to get something in return yet you clearly do. It feels sleazy.

Appreciate the insights MTF. Excellent point about talking AT as opposed to with people. It's the modern day equivalent of standing on a soapbox. A lot of people go on there to preach.

I remember seeing a tweet a while ago that basically said Twitter is a billboard. In terms of relationship-building, seems like more private places might be better - i.e. Discord, Telegram etc. might be better. A lot of time the worst places to network are the places where people are trying to network.

My patience is running out super fast with social media.

What other channels will you use to grow your newsletter if you aren't on social media?

 

[MTF]

seems like more private places might be better - i.e. Discord, Telegram etc. might be better.

I never understood how these work. How are you supposed to find them? Also, I only saw these for gaming and for crypto.

What other channels will you use to grow your newsletter if you aren't on social media?

No idea.

Reddit seems like the most reliable source but it's not scalable as there's only one (and small) highly-relevant subreddit.

I tried advertising in newsletters and that isn't scalable, either.

Instagram would be probably relevant to my niche but I despise Instagram and consider it largely a dump created for vain people. I also hate how it makes me feel when I see all these perfect pictures.

YouTube could be a potential route though I suck at video, don't like it, and it's extremely time-consuming. I was also once randomly banned on YouTube for nothing (lost a channel with 30,000+ subscribers) so I don't trust them.

I could advertise in podcasts or try to be featured as a guest but I have a feeling this wouldn't translate that well into newsletter readers as it's a completely different medium. From what I've seen, people who mainly listen to podcasts usually don't read much.

At this point, I really have no idea. I feel like like I don't belong as an entrepreneur anymore as I simply can't figure out marketing in these times. I don't want to turn into an influencer and spend hours every day posting shit and preaching on social media.

 

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[Mathuin]

I never understood how these work. How are you supposed to find them? Also, I only saw these for gaming and for crypto.

A lot of them are private but there's a lot of public ones. There's quite a lot for self-improvement/ business if you have a look through the public servers. A number of these are ran by YT content creators (e.g. Hamza). A lot of these you also find through social media sites. A number of people i follow on Twitter have a telegram (which I havent joined but thats besides the point)

At this point, I really have no idea. I feel like like I don't belong as an entrepreneur anymore as I simply can't figure out marketing in these times. I don't want to turn into an influencer and spend hours every day posting shit and preaching on social media.

Probably a dumb question but, have you thought about offering a different product/ service? I would imagine marketing a discomfort newsletter would be hard considering how comfort-orientated 99.7% of people are. And the 0.3% are usually out doing uncomfortable shit and may not want to read a newsletter.

Is it only for this that you have struggled to market? Seems like you're being overly tough on yourself by questioning your entrepreneurial identity just because you failed to market something that seems very hard to market.

 

[Andy Black]

I never understood how these work. How are you supposed to find them? Also, I only saw these for gaming and for crypto.



No idea.

Reddit seems like the most reliable source but it's not scalable as there's only one (and small) highly-relevant subreddit.

I tried advertising in newsletters and that isn't scalable, either.

Instagram would be probably relevant to my niche but I despise Instagram and consider it largely a dump created for vain people. I also hate how it makes me feel when I see all these perfect pictures.

YouTube could be a potential route though I suck at video, don't like it, and it's extremely time-consuming. I was also once randomly banned on YouTube for nothing (lost a channel with 30,000+ subscribers) so I don't trust them.

I could advertise in podcasts or try to be featured as a guest but I have a feeling this wouldn't translate that well into newsletter readers as it's a completely different medium. From what I've seen, people who mainly listen to podcasts usually don't read much.

At this point, I really have no idea. I feel like like I don't belong as an entrepreneur anymore as I simply can't figure out marketing in these times. I don't want to turn into an influencer and spend hours every day posting shit and preaching on social media.

MJ doesn’t publish shit. He publishes the opposite and does well out of it.