Learning to Program is STUPID! (or SMART?!)

[chrischapman]

A quote from think and grow rich by napoleon hill:

A few years back, Ford decided to produce his now famous V-8 motor. He chose to build an engine with the entire eight cylinders cast in one block, and instructed his engineers to produce a design for the engine. The design was placed on paper, but the engineers agreed, to a man, that it was simply impossible to cast an eight cylinder gas engine block in one piece.

Ford said, "Produce it anyway."

"But," they replied, "it's impossible!"

"Go ahead," Ford commanded, "and stay on the job until you succeed no matter how much time is required."

The engineers went ahead. There was nothing else for them to do, if they were to remain on the Ford staff. Six months went by, nothing happened. Another six months passed, and still nothing happened. The engineers tried every conceivable plan to carry out the orders, but the thing seemed out of the question; "impossible!"

At the end of the year Ford checked with his engineers, and again they informed him they had found no way to carry out his orders.

"Go right ahead," said Ford, "I want it, and I'll have it."

p. 32

They went ahead, and then, as if by a stroke of magic, the secret was discovered.

The Ford DETERMINATION had won once more!

ford didnt care about the coding "limits" of engineering, he did it anyway. if you are learning coding to learn its limits, well, perhaps you ought to focus on getting someone else to find a solution like Ford did and find the desired outcome despite the "limits"

 

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[Ninjakid]

My lovely tech entrepreneurs
If you plan to start an internet business or a tech company, you don't HAVE to know how to program.
If you secretly hate it, but are learning so to can build your business, I would advise you find an adequate programmer to handle the gritty work, while you handle the business end.
Steve Jobs is one of the most successful tech entrepreneurs and he apparently couldn't code.
That said, if you can already code, and you actually love the feeling of creating programs by hand, then take the challenge into your own hands.

Coding is definitely not for everyone though, and many internet visionaries should know that they don't NEED to know how if they are entering that industry. It's definitely not easy, and there's a high possibly that you'll spend an astronomical amount of time building something that is barely functional and full of errors.
That said, there are those freaks of nature who can learn and apply something as complex as programming in a short amount of time. Those people, you're probably gonna do whatever you want anyways.

By the way, if you want credibility, I'm an experienced programmer who chose entrepreneurship over gaining a degree in computer engineering (for now anyways)

 

[Martinv678]

I have been a professional coder for around 5 years and have mainly worked for companies help build their sites. I agree with most that the people that make the money is not the coders or developers its always the business man. I find the problem with being a coder and trying to build a web business of your own is you get too involved with how the code is written trying to save every kb and focusing on the design when really the time should be spent getting a marketing plan together, getting clients and writing quality copy. By the time you finish, you have seen the site so many times that you no longer know how to it feels with fresh eyes of a new user and deciding the best User experience is more challenging. In the future I will definitely outsource and just do a once over on the code to make sure its okay and not going to load slow. The best advise I have from this forum is that learning sales and copy will always get you much further.

 

[samuraijack]

I know the consensus on here is that learning to program is "slowlane", and I realize that it is just a tool to create a product that addresses a need. The more I read on here, the more I want to stop teaching myself to program, and drop out of school and focus on finding problems to solve and letting others take care of product creation.

Reading MJ's book has really cemented the fact that time is the most valuable asset I have, and days in class or while I'm writing a report or studying I think to myself I think I could be doing something more valuable and do some REAL learning. I get A's in my classes but they feel like empty achievements.

HOWEVER, I have always been a quitter, a dabbler, and never stuck with anything to see it through. Six months ago when I started learning to program I told myself I would not quit, and there's been several times I've been close, but I stuck to my guts and pushed through it. If I quit now, I would be taking a shot to my integrity.

I am not learning to program to get a job, I want to create apps on my own, and would not mind spending entire days coding to make it happen. Am I stuck in the slowlane?

 

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[Nathan Douglas]

The way I see it is this. If I stopped what I was doing in my business to learn to program my marketplace, I would not be meeting with the companies that are going to service my clients, I would not have time to work on a marketing campaign, I would not have the time to solicit clients or follow up on leads.... You get the point. I think programming is very cool, and I tip my hat to the guys and gals who do it for a living. But running a business and gathering client list, building membership, signing contracts to further the services my business offers, programming.... Just doesn't fit in my schedule. I am sure other people are this way too. No one wants to be the CEO that no one sees. I would rather be out closing deals and making money.

I hate being the guy that can't code. But I would hate even worst if I was the guy who couldn't even afford to pay someone to code.


Just personal preference. If you are the person who can sit down for 15 hours straight and code while simultaneously answering phones, following up with emails, signing contracts, hiring team members, developing marketing strategies, managing budgetary items, writing business plans, analyzing the industry, working on break-even analysis and sales forecast, coming up with new product ideas, going to meetings with team members, soliciting potential leads, etc, etc.... Again, I tip my hat to YOU. I'll even buy you a beer or 2.

 

[Bossgirl]

Has anyone examined this from the perspective of what it is you're actually selling? Sales and great copy can get you into someone's wallet, but what is going to keep you there is the quality of your software.

If you're selling Saas...churn will kill you if your product sucks.
If you're selling a downloadable 3.99 app, you might get a great initial surge with good marketing, but all products are social so...if it sucks, people will talk.

No amount of marketing can help you there, the only thing you can rely on is the integrity of your code. How do you KNOW that your code is any good? This is, after all YOUR product, and if you can't open your own source code and at least have a basic idea of what its saying, then you might as well be selling a sealed bag of rocks and calling it diamonds.

The field of programming is vast....new frameworks and languages get developed more often than we can learn them, and that can be overwhelming. The field of sales, marketing and copywriting can be equally overwhelming. If you try to keep up with all the strategies and tools and techniques you will never get anywhere either. The key is really to focus on exactly what it is you want to do, pick a path and stick with it. But the first rule of marketing has always been to know what you're selling...

 

[csalvato]

Here's an email I wrote to my list just over 4 years ago:

Rep Transferred...

I feel the exact same way, and you laid it out quite eloquently.

 

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[Andy Black]

It's funny, I'm ex IT, now AdWords, but still a "techie" helping other people build their businesses.

This thread is way more than just about "programming".

 

[healthstatus]

This thread is way more than just about "programming".

I'm sneaky like that.

 

[Tobore]

google guys? coded it themselves.
facebook guys? coded it themselves
ebay guys? coded it themselves
hotmail? coded it themselves
pinterest owners? coded it themselves
microsoft? coded it themselves.
reddit?
slashdot?
yahoo?
paypal?
and the list goes on.
the major owner's wrote the first version/prototypes themselves, before they started hiring programmers.
if you want to make billions upon billions, you better learn to code!
if you are shooting for 6, 7 figures, then programming is stupid.

So True!!!

 

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[AllenCrawley]

I wonder if there are any modern day billionaires that didn't learn how to code?

 

[jockinbox]

I wonder if there are any modern day billionaires that didn't learn how to code?

warren buffet
carlos slim

 

[csalvato]

I wonder if there are any modern day billionaires that didn't learn how to code?

What do you mean by modern? Still alive?

Richard Branson.. (Virgin)
Warren Buffet.. (Investing)
Charles Koch..
David Koch..
Michael Bloomberg..(Bloomberg)
Phil Knight... (Nike)

A lot of them on the Forbes 500: http://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/#p...tries_filter:All states_filter:All categories

Or did you mean under 40?

Scott Duncan... (Energy)
Chase Coleman... (Hedge Funds/Tiget Global)
John Arnold... (Hedge Funds/Centaurus Advisors)
Nicholas Woodman... (GoPro)

 

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[AllenCrawley]

It was more of a rhetorical question but I do appreciate the given examples.

Eastwinds comment made me do it...

if you want to make billions upon billions, you better learn to code!
if you are shooting for 6, 7 figures, then programming is stupid

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I wonder if there are any modern day billionaires that didn't learn how to code?

I'd like to add one other criterion... AND made their fortune in the tech sector.

 

[AllenCrawley]

I'd like to add one other criterion... AND made their fortune in the tech sector.

So that quote should read, "if you want to make billions upon billions in the tech sector you better learn to code."

 

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[healthstatus]

I wonder if there are any modern day billionaires that didn't learn how to code?

Allen, the correct question is how many hundredaires are out there thinking that coding is the solution? I started this post 3 years ago, and yet nobody has come back and said, wow I learned how to write code and just sold my company for ___________. In fact nobody has come back and said, yep I learned.

As for Microsoft:
Paul Allen co-founded Microsoft with Bill Gates in Albuquerque, New Mexico, in 1975, and began marketing a BASIC programming language interpreter.[9] Allen came up with the original name of "Micro-Soft," as recounted in a 1995 Fortune magazine article.[11] In 1980, after promising to deliver IBM a Disk Operating System (DOS) they had not yet developed for the Intel 8088-based IBM PC, Allen spearheaded a deal for Microsoft to purchase a Quick and Dirty Operating System (QDOS) written by Tim Paterson who, at the time, was employed at Seattle Computer Products. As a result of this transaction, Microsoft was able to secure a contract to supply the DOS that would eventually run on IBM's PC line. This contract with IBM was the watershed in Microsoft history that led to Allen and Gates' wealth.

 

[garyk1968]

Allen, the correct question is how many hundredaires are out there thinking that coding is the solution? I started this post 3 years ago, and yet nobody has come back and said, wow I learned how to write code and just sold my company for ___________. In fact nobody has come back and said, yep I learned.

As for Microsoft:
Paul Allen co-founded Microsoft with Bill Gates in Albuquerque, New Mexico, in 1975, and began marketing a BASIC programming language interpreter.[9] Allen came up with the original name of "Micro-Soft," as recounted in a 1995 Fortune magazine article.[11] In 1980, after promising to deliver IBM a Disk Operating System (DOS) they had not yet developed for the Intel 8088-based IBM PC, Allen spearheaded a deal for Microsoft to purchase a Quick and Dirty Operating System (QDOS) written by Tim Paterson who, at the time, was employed at Seattle Computer Products. As a result of this transaction, Microsoft was able to secure a contract to supply the DOS that would eventually run on IBM's PC line. This contract with IBM was the watershed in Microsoft history that led to Allen and Gates' wealth.

Yep spot, its always been cheaper to buy than build.

And the example of the companies where the founders were coders? For every one of those there are hundreds of founder/developer companies that didn't make it. Just like for every successful app on the appstore there are tens of thousands laying undiscovered.

 

[RHL]

google guys? coded it themselves.
facebook guys? coded it themselves
ebay guys? coded it themselves
hotmail? coded it themselves
pinterest owners? coded it themselves
microsoft? coded it themselves.
reddit?
slashdot?
yahoo?
paypal?
and the list goes on.
the major owner's wrote the first version/prototypes themselves, before they started hiring programmers.
if you want to make billions upon billions, you better learn to code!
if you are shooting for 6, 7 figures, then programming is stupid.

I think the key is that these guys weren't just coders, they were inventors. You couldn't just hire some dudes for $100K/yr and come out on the back end with google. Do you know what's involved in a site like YouTube? The ability to accept uploads from a vast array of formats and standardize them to a single codec that could play rapidly anywhere, a huge organizing and indexing system that works in 60 languages... it's becoming more common place now but in 2005 this was sci-fi stuff. I gotta agree. If you want to rake in a few K with a simplistic iphone game that's a clone of something Nentendo made in the 80's, by all means, hire it out. If you want to invent a new breed of website that will change the way people use the internet and make tens of billions doing it, you need to do that yourself.

 

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[davedev]

If you want to rake in a few K with a simplistic iphone game that's a clone of something Nintendo made in the 80's, by all means, hire it out. If you want to invent a new breed of website that will change the way people use the internet and make tens of billions doing it, you need to do that yourself.

This is the moral of the story.

 

[csalvato]

If you want to invent a new breed of website that will change the way people use the internet and make tens of billions doing it, you need to do that yourself.

Well put.

 

[RogueInnovation]

In fact nobody has come back and said, yep I learned

I'm learning it,
I'm still a bit conflicted,
I mean, initially diving into code turned my world upside down on what coding is, and I was riding the high, and now the high has dimmed down I look at it and think... "you know, code isn't the hardest part" and I see a lot of people who can code, sitting around.
It is a peculiar thing, like walking into a bar at happy hour and then everyone kinda leaves and its a few people left pounding away, and a few really smart ones.

The hard part is knowing how to utilise it.

If you want to invent a new breed of website that will change the way people use the internet and make tens of billions doing it, you need to do that yourself

I think this is true, I think you are not in control on the internet unless you can grasp code.

But...
Again, I don't think its CODE itself you need.

You can direct a movie without being an actor, produce a show without being a dancer, but generally, for the purposes of authenticity, I think you can't AVOID it or snub it.


Its not the code as much as it is, the awareness of capacities of people in situations. You have to get rid of the mystery factor, so you aren't assuming weird stuff like "coders have super powers" or "our competitors will run circles around us! Arrrgh!"

I dunno, code is nice to learn, but as I learn it I focus really hard on how much things I come across matter from a biz perspective.
What I see so far is very mellow, definately not this great big advantage/disadvantage, but more nuanced.

Kinda wish I had dived in a year ago, so I could give it more time and develop it similar to my marketting strategies. But what can you do

 

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[Drive2Riches]

Knowing how to code... trying to get something accomplished...

This is what teaches you about what is POSSIBLE.

If you've got Human Resource SYSTEMS or Rental SYSTEMS or Computer SYSTEMS in place and making a little cash flow from them... then KNOWING WHAT IS POSSIBLE could be the adjustment you need for your business.

Doing the MATH...

If have a fantastic HR system set up running your Rental business... and a Computer/Web system in place receiving your leads... then you KNOW that you can CODE THIS WHOLE THING to a point where you've LEVERAGED your resources.

I know I can't do it myself... BUT I KNOW THAT SOMEONE CAN. However, I wouldn't really understand that this OPTIMIZATION could be possible if I didn't already have my hand in it at some point.

I know enough to know what is POSSIBLE. I know enough to create a prototype. I know enough code to "speak the language" to a PRO CODER and COMMUNICATE what I want to get accomplished.

For me, the key to knowing code is that I can COMMUNICATE to the Professional I've hired EXACTLY what I want accomplished. But I'll just say what RESULT I want, and let the professional do the work... I just know that CODE is the magic to get it done.

CODE is what will automate, optimize, accelerate, and generate that tiny percentage you need that COULD add another digit to your monthly checks.

Yep, I just love this Fastlane stuff.
~

 

[healthstatus]

This is what teaches you about what is POSSIBLE.

A good programmer will tell you, "Given enough time and money, I can do anything you want.", and he will be correct.

 

[marklov]

I tried to learn programming and was bored to F*cking tears.

If I was maybe younger say 15/16 and picked up an interest in it then spent a couple years learning it would probably have been different.
But just getting up cold turkey and attempting to learn code at the level needed to create an app or whatever....at this period in my life and i'm young (21) is not going to happen.

As a matter of fact I have a friend who is going to take a CS class so he can create some big idea he has steaming and for other reasons as well.
My cousin went through the same course spent 7 years (4 yrs school 3 yrs in a company) to become a proper coder and he was tinkering with the stuff from the age of 14.
Beat up , burnt out , and decided that life was not for him and now teaches CS.

In my eyes there has to be a genuine reason driving that person from the beginning and not some shallow goal of just wanting to be a gazillionaire from making the next face book or whatever.

 

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[Drive2Riches]

A good programmer will tell you, "Given enough time and money, I can do anything you want.", and he will be correct.

Right. But EVERY programmer can tell you this statement and they'd all be correct.

So because you know some code, and you know what good code looks like, and you know what can be done with programming... You can vet the programmer and not get scammed.

However you look at this, in this thread or anywhere else, it might be STUPID not to know code at all, and it might also be STUPID to devote too much of your personal resources (time, money, patience) to learning code.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I started this post 3 years ago, and yet nobody has come back and said, wow I learned how to write code and just sold my company for ___________.

I haven't read all 18 pages of this thread, but as far as I know, no one has either come forward and said "Wow, I just outsourced my IT on ELance and am now earning $100K/month!!"

I tried to learn programming and was bored to F*cking tears.

When I teach myself some new code, or a new way of doing something, I'm exhilarated. Proving that what's right for you, isn't necessarily right for me.

 

[RogueInnovation]

Has anyone examined this from the perspective of what it is you're actually selling? Sales and great copy can get you into someone's wallet, but what is going to keep you there is the quality of your software

I'm examining it from a customer retention perspective, trying to assess the key requirements to make people happier staying. Mostly in the start I'm assuming you need to get out of their way, then second to keep it close to a function or activity that they do regularly so it integrates with habitual behaviour in a nice way.
If the person has to jump hurdles, eventually their instinct will try to make the habit more efficient and go in search of other software.

Longevity, integration, habitually streamlined, enticing to use.
Its more than just colors and jquery slides.

But EVERY programmer can tell you this statement and they'd all be correct

Not lazy ones, haha.

I wouldn't really understand that this OPTIMIZATION could be possible if I didn't already have my hand in it at some point

Good stuff.
Its such a fine balance to make sure that is USEFUL though.
I mean, I think a lot of optimisations are just things CODERS see, but are red herrings so far as business is concerned.
You have to kind of take a look at it and question it yourself and make the call.

 

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[healthstatus]

"Wow, I just outsourced my IT on ELance and am now earning $100K/month!!"

I am well on my way to that number, and making a lot more than when I coded myself, and I work about 15 hours a week most weeks.

 

[CreateLiving]

My response to this thread title? FALSE. Learning to do ANYTHING is not stupid (it goes against the fundamental reason for learning: Gaining Knowledge)....Invest some time in yourself and prepare to be amazed by the final product....Coding is just one example.