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Learning to Program is STUPID! (or SMART?!)

WhiteEagle

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I completely respect your opinion and status on these forums, however, I would have to respectfully disagree with some of the things you've mentioned here. It seems like perhaps your experience of programming/coding didn't go well, or perhaps you've never tried it before. That's cool, I understand that. You're probably more right-brained than left brained; you're great with human interaction, intuition, psychology, etc. This makes you more of a marketer and seller. A left-brained individual is more logical, objective, scientific and is more of a techie.

The thing they don't take into account is progress. New devices, new input capabilities, new design concepts, so a program like this that was written 5-6 years ago, would not take into account mobile devices, mobile screen sizes, the need to communicate via cellular or wifi or blue-tooth.

Prime example right here. You've heard of Java, right? Its machine-independent, meaning it can run on any device. The enterainment system in your car, house, your TV, fridge, dishwasher, computer and web apps are all Java based. Many cell phones use the same machine independent machine language. How about the concept of OBJECT ORIENTED programming? Its almost like Lego in the world of programming. You put it all together and you have a program. I've started learning to program iPhone apps in my spare time because its fun. If you have a Mac, download Xcode. With a few clicks (and a bit of reprogramming), you make both iPhone and iPad apps, thereby, increasing your user base for both platforms. In about 15 minutes, you can easily make an app that takes an address you've input into your iPhone and displays that address on a map, using a map framekit. While perhaps not useful by itself, it might be extremely useful as part of a full app. There are thousands of objects and pre-written objects and code that makes programming [these days] so much easier than ever before.

The bottom line is this: You don't need to reinvent the wheel to get anything done these days. Its almost all done for you. You customize most of it to your liking and needs. This forum, I'm definitely sure that MJ didn't write it from scratch, not did he have to invent the internet to put it all online for everyone to see/use. LOL!

You can't learn to code properly in a couple of weeks. If you could, really good programmers in the US could be hired for minimum wage, but they can't they charge north of $80.00/hour.

He's talking about web programming here. Its actually not that complicated. To learn how to be good at something, you have to know how it functions; you must SEE its internal constructs. I specialize in graphics and programming. When I see a website, I see two things. First, I see HOW it is designed (using Photoshop for example, layers, shapes, paths, etc) and second I see HOW it is coded (using HTML, PHP, etc.) I don't look at the source code, I already know "that's a table, that's a header, that's the footer, used CSS for this and that, etc. etc. etc.) The same thing goes for anything else in life, be it a web site, a business, a marketing strategy, a sales pitch, a physical device, a machine (you'd be surprised how many people don't know how a car works); learn the basics so that you can mentally break it down and visualize its internal mechanics. This is a skill that has unlimited power.

Because you can learn to drive well enough in 40 hours of focused effort

With 40 hours of focused effort, you can get up and running in the very basics of programming too. You're not going to program FB2.0 or Windows 9, but that's not the point, because you're not going to be Mario Andretti nor Dale Earnhardt in 40 hours either. Learn the basics. Driving was just an example. LOL!

I have been saying that for 15 pages and several years.

I humbly admit that I know very little about marketing or copywriting or sales. It is one area that I definitely KNOW that I need to learn. It is extremely important in any business. What value is a great product if you can't sell it? As MJ stated in his book, some of the most successful brands are the ones with the best marketing. You still need to back it up with a quality product...

On the flip side of the coin, something interesting just happened... WhatsApp was just sold to FB yesterday for $16 BILLION. In USA Today, the founders said that they spent ZERO on marketing and PR, etc. He focused on the quality of the product and to fulfill a need (cross-platform instant-messaging). Such a simple concept that made them the world's latest billionaires (mind you, through a PROCESS). Their tool...? Customer word-of-mouth. Fascinating!

I'm sure I can learn lots from you health and I'm glad to be here. ;)
 
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healthstatus

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I would have to respectfully disagree with some of the things you've mentioned here. It seems like perhaps your experience of programming/coding didn't go well, or perhaps you've never tried it before.
I've been programming for 32 years now. 15+ Languages, 6 figure income as a coder (in the 1980's when that was real money), CTO of multiple companies, managed 100's of REAL programmers.

This forum, I'm definitely sure that MJ didn't write it from scratch
I have been waiting for 15 pages for someone to finally point this out. MJ has been the model for all these wannabe programmers.

With 40 hours of focused effort, you can get up and running in the very basics of programming too.
There might be 1 in 500 that could be, but my original post doesn't talk about guys that want to know the very basics, they wanted to develop their own app, webapp, website backend and more. I have called BS on every guy that comes in here and says they will read some book or take an online class and be ready to code in 6-8 weeks. I repeatedly ask for someone from this thread that did that to jump up and say, I can write code at a pro level and I did it in a couple of months. Nobody is waving that flag.


How about the concept of OBJECT ORIENTED programming? Its almost like Lego in the world of programming.
Check out Cpan.org, Perl library with 129,000 prewritten modules, PHP has their library, Java has theirs, Ruby, Python, blah effin blah. You ever go to the Lego store by Disney? 15 foot tall dragon breathing fire, seven dwarves in their mine, that is what a pro can do with Lego. Same with programming, you can build your 10 inch tower, or use something prebuilt, but the quality, the scale and the security that a pro can provide will blow you away.
 

healthstatus

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OK, this is it. Last post from me in this thread.

Summary
1) If you have no money, learn to market and write copy, not to program. Shorter and smoother road to getting some $$$.
2) If you want to learn to program at a pro level - plan on 3 years, and hope what language you picked is still going strong in 3 years.
3) User Interface, Database design, Server balancing and Security are all parts of what needs to be coded, you got to know those as well.
 

fivestarredflag

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Alright, I wasn't going to jump in this thread. Both sides have excellent points and both side makes sense, but here's a short story of two of my friends. One of them worked really hard to build a software. He went through an entire year hiring contractors on odesk/elance to perfect his work. He said it was hell because he never understood what the contractors were doing so he wasted a lot of money. He then tried to apply for an incubator and got rejected because he didn't have a strong engineer co founder and because he didnt know how to code. My other friend on the other hand that went to school for computer science got over 10 offers from big companies for 6 figure + salaries with stock options. He decided to go his own route with a few of his other friends and joined an incubator. Now this startup just received a Series B round funding of over 3mil.

Overall I think it all boils down to where your from. I'm from CA where programming is the way to go. Exposure and fame comes with money. Once your known in the tech world, you will never have problem finding another startup or creating one yourself.
 
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adiakritos

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My opinion has changed on this...

My take is this.. if you can make *consistent* money developing so that you can *buy* time and skill from other people to build your project for you with your close guidance.. that's what you should do. If you can make money faster as a copywriting, do that.
 

TonyMontana

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Hi i'm new here reading through parts of this thread people keep mentioning to learn " copy " and marketing can someone direct me to a good place to learn these skill if possible or any books etc.
Thanks
 
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jazb

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Learning to program is like a quentin tarantino learning how to design costumes. You pay someone else for that. The skill you need as a entrepreneur is the ability to sell/ share your vision. Sell your idea to investors, raise capital, hire employees and sell the idea to them to implement...
 

RogueInnovation

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Coding takes time... And only has power behind good ideas. Freelancers are easy enough to buy for a job.

I'm learning coding, but specifically with the intent and end goal in mind. Not to be the mule doing the work, but just to be spirited enough to impact the facets of design necessary for full control.

Like an octopus, where my limbs are freelancers and good network contacts, I aim to leverage that to create exactly any software etc necessary for any endeavor and free up my mind to take opportunity.
 

Lawrence Barse

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I'm a computer programmer, who also happens to know how to do business and how to sell, and I keep getting business opportunities from other people who don't have Computer Programming knowledge. Plus point is I get and equity in their business, and all I have to do is take care of the Programming.
So, you cannot state that acquiring new knowledge is STUPID, knowledge is something that will always help you go ahead in life!
 
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D11FYY

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Iv signed up for a 10 week course in basic coding and another 10 week Java course for straight after. I dont expect to master any language at all just to grasp a better knowledge and understanding certainly wont hurt.
 

sle3pyguii

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I'm a computer programmer, who also happens to know how to do business and how to sell, and I keep getting business opportunities from other people who don't have Computer Programming knowledge. Plus point is I get and equity in their business, and all I have to do is take care of the Programming.
So, you cannot state that acquiring new knowledge is STUPID, knowledge is something that will always help you go ahead in life!

I haven't read this entire thread, but I think what they're saying is that for non-programmers, learning to code JUST to run a business isn't worth it. the time commitment to learn how to write and fix code is HUGE. During the time it'd take them to go from "hello world" to creating a website with a fully-functional front-end could be better spent learning sales copy, which will provide immediate return.
 

NicoleMarie

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I'll throw my opinion in as my business will be only web based.
I'm considering going to codecademy just for some no pressure learning. I read that even if you're going to outsource programming, you at least have to know somewhat what's possible and what to tell the programmer. I know nothing about programming capabilities and I find it close to impossible to try and tell people what I'm trying to do. Plus since my website will require a lot of aesthetic work, I'd like to be able to make it look good myself as much as possible as I don't have tons of money either. I'm also paranoid about having to wait for a programmer to fix bugs later on, but I don't know if I'll ever bother getting to that level ha.
 
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royalflush

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Hi i'm new here reading through parts of this thread people keep mentioning to learn " copy " and marketing can someone direct me to a good place to learn these skill if possible or any books etc.
Thanks

If you want to learn copywriting the right way, then you've got to learn from the top copywriting guy, John Carlton. You'll be years ahead from amateurs.
 

sle3pyguii

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I'll throw my opinion in as my business will be only web based.
I'm considering going to codecademy just for some no pressure learning. I read that even if you're going to outsource programming, you at least have to know somewhat what's possible and what to tell the programmer. I know nothing about programming capabilities and I find it close to impossible to try and tell people what I'm trying to do. Plus since my website will require a lot of aesthetic work, I'd like to be able to make it look good myself as much as possible as I don't have tons of money either. I'm also paranoid about having to wait for a programmer to fix bugs later on, but I don't know if I'll ever bother getting to that level ha.

I'd suggest leaving the debugging issues to the pros, as it can sometimes be like pulling a thread in a sweater. Focusing on learning the basics of HTML and CSS can definitely be helpful in communicating so that you know what's actually realistic and possible for the programmers to do. It's definitely helped me when I create mockups and wireframes.
 

DaRK9

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Don't bother. It takes years and years to actually learn to code. Until then you will spend 75% of your time on Stack Overflow looking up how to code functions.
Then it will take even more years to learn how to effectively design and plan, then manage a project.

Don't waste 4+ years of your life learning what costs you anywhere from $100-$300,000 to make.

Some of my friends are getting really good at project management, it took them years of long hours and nights and tens of thousands of dollars in training.

If you think you are going to learn it in a few month, you will not. In 6 months you will still be on Stack Overflow copy and pasting your way through what someone can do in 5 minutes. TIME > MONEY.

Also if your programmer doesn't understand what you are asking, its time for a new one or to not be cheap by outsourcing to India. Anything can be programmed, its a question of time, skill and money.
 
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Emanuel

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I have only read half of the topic so excuse me if I'm repeating something that's been said already.

I think learning basic programming is a MUST for everyone. Coding teaches you to think analytically and helps you to better visualize the concept of synergy: how small parts (or steps) can make (or lead to) something much grander. I highly recommend a basic understanding of at least a programming language even if you will never use it.

With this being said, advanced programming IS NOT FOR EVERYONE. It takes a certain type of mind to become a great programmer. For some, it's a very natural process while for others it makes absolutely no sense even after months or years of learning. If it's not for you, you'll know and you can move on to something else.
 

NicoleMarie

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Don't bother. It takes years and years to actually learn to code. Until then you will spend 75% of your time on Stack Overflow looking up how to code functions.
Then it will take even more years to learn how to effectively design and plan, then manage a project.

Don't waste 4+ years of your life learning what costs you anywhere from $100-$300,000 to make.

Some of my friends are getting really good at project management, it took them years of long hours and nights and tens of thousands of dollars in training.

If you think you are going to learn it in a few month, you will not. In 6 months you will still be on Stack Overflow copy and pasting your way through what someone can do in 5 minutes. TIME > MONEY.

Also if your programmer doesn't understand what you are asking, its time for a new one or to not be cheap by outsourcing to India. Anything can be programmed, its a question of time, skill and money.

Good to know. What I'm looking for is like a general overview of languages and what they do so I know who to look for in the first place. I think I've got a good overview of it now though. When I say I don't know a thing about programming, I'm serious. Haha.
 

DaRK9

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Good to know. What I'm looking for is like a general overview of languages and what they do so I know who to look for in the first place. I think I've got a good overview of it now though. When I say I don't know a thing about programming, I'm serious. Haha.
Basic Web - HTML, PHP(Backend but shit for SaaS), CSS, JavaScript, jQuery
Used for design and simple functions. No database or continual users, just one time number crunching.

Advanced Web (Backend Services) - Same as basic and .NET, PHP (Shit for SaaS but here so @Emanuel can stop arguing.), ASP, Java, Python, Node.js
This is the go between from database to the user end. This is all ran on a server on the back, users don't see this.

Database - MS SQL Server, MySQL, Oracle
Stores all information needed for everything else to work.

Now you know the basics.

As you can see, to create a web service it will take more than 4 languages. A typical SaaS would look something like this.

Interface - HTML/CSS/jQuery
Data Input - PHP
Data Processing - .NET
Database - MS SQL Server

Then you have debugging, server and DB optimization, and 1000 more things you never thought would come up.
It's honestly not worth it. Invest in getting a good project manager who can talk in everyday terms as a go between for the programmers.

I design websites and just keeping up on new updates to design languages alone is time consuming.
 
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Emanuel

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What's PHP doing in the "Basic Web" category? It's a server side language.
 

NicoleMarie

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Basic Web - HTML, PHP, CSS, JavaScript, jQuery
Used for design and simple functions. No database or continual users, just one time number crunching.

Advanced Web (Backend Services) - Same as basic and .NET, ASP, Java, Python, Node.js
This is the go between from database to the user end. This is all ran on a server on the back, users don't see this.

Database - MS SQL Server, MySQL, Oracle
Stores all information needed for everything else to work.

Now you know the basics.

As you can see, to create a web service it will take more than 4 languages. A typical SaaS would look something like this.

Interface - HTML/CSS/jQuery
Data Input - PHP
Data Processing - .NET
Database - MS SQL Server

Then you have debugging, server and DB optimization, and 1000 more things you never thought would come up.
It's honestly not worth it. Invest in getting a good project manager who can talk in everyday terms as a go between for the programmers.

I design websites and just keeping up on new updates to design languages alone is time consuming.

Thanks for the summary! Yah I looked at learning to program basics a few weeks ago and said NOPE! Project manager eh? Sounds helpful. I've been able to communicate with a few programmers pretty well so I think it'll be good. Too bad it costs so dang much to outsource. :confused: The fun stuff will have to wait haha.
 

Emanuel

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You called your second category "Backend Services". How does that not include PHP? PHP is not basic at all and there's nothing that can be done in Java or Python that can't be done in PHP.

You can't put PHP in the same category with HTML and CSS, but then again you said you're a designer not a programmer.
 

DaRK9

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You called your second category "Backend Services". How does that not include PHP? PHP is not basic at all and there's nothing that can be done in Java or Python that can't be done in PHP.

You can't put PHP in the same category with HTML and CSS, but then again you said you're a designer not a programmer.
I wouldn't say PHP is equal to or greater than Python. I personally dislike PHP as it becomes clumsy in the long run.

I've yet to see anyone build an entire web service for B2B on PHP alone. And if it is, it's probably slow or simple.
 

Emanuel

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We are not discussing which language is better. You placed PHP in the wrong category just because you dislike it? I suppose Facebook, Wikipedia, YouTube and many others didn't know what they were thinking when they decided to use PHP as their main language.

Anyway, this is not what the topic is about. Just make the correction and don't argue just for the sake of arguing.
 
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DaRK9

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We are not discussing which language is better. You placed PHP in the wrong category just because you dislike it? I suppose Facebook, Wikipedia, YouTube and many others didn't know what they were thinking when they decided to use PHP as their main language.

Anyway, this is not what the topic is about. Just make the correction and don't argue just for the sake of arguing.
Only Facebooks front end is PHP.
YouTube was originally PHP and is now Python because PHP was too slow for the amount of users. Google switched it to Java.

My point entirely. PHP is generally used as a server ran front end and not an entire service.

From what I've seen from you so far on here you are always the one arguing for the sake of arguing. Nice try.
 

davedev

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Yeah Python is awesome...

I got my hands full with Rails (and all of it's friends) and Angular.js now so maybe later.
 

DaRK9

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Yeah Python is awesome...

I got my hands full with Rails (and all of it's friends) and Angular.js now so maybe later.
I love Python. I would say its optimal for most SaaS requirements as B2B generally requires a lot of number crunching.
 
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DaRK9

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That's one way of admitting your mistake. Nice edit.
Again, not really a mistake as this is all about SaaS and PHP is just not good enough.

When will you admit your mistakes about the sites mentioned being PHP?
 

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