Don't Ask, Give

[Andy Black]

Too many folks just ASK...

• How do I find a client?
• How do I find a mentor?
• How do I find a business idea?

Or they want to give, but ASK how...

• Can I help you?
• What can I help you with?
• Do you need help with XYZ?

Don't ask, give.

Don't even ask what you can give, or ask for permission to give.

People are busy. Don't make them think. Make it easy for them to say yes.



What if you sent someone this:

Hi <person you want to build a relationship with>,

I loved your LinkedIn post last week about <subject>.

I turned it into a carousel which is attached.

Here's the slides:
<show the slides so they don't have to open the doc to see them>.

I can make any changes you'd like, and if you want to upload it to LinkedIn then you can find simple instructions below.

Hope that helps!

<yourname>

Doc:
<doc attached>

How to upload to LinkedIn:
<simple step-by-step instructions>


You're not asking if they can help you, if they need help, or what they need help with.

You're not asking for permission to turn their LinkedIn post into a carousel.

What outcome do you think you'll get if you sent this with NO EXPECTATION of getting anything in return?

Do you think they'll respond even though you didn't ask them to?

Do you think you're more likely to get into a short (or long) conversation with them compared to all the other ASKS in their inbox?


What's your takeaway? What will you do different going foward?

Can you think of other simple GIVES that don't need permission?


Here's a 12 second story of me not asking for permission:

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/xYEEhRyF1qA?si=rgdk88WpPNqbHxzq

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

@Fox interviewed my some years ago about finding website design clients.

My response was to unilaterally send out website redesign mocks.

Don't ask, give.

Applied in action:

ASK: Hey, I noticed your website can use an update. Can I send you a mockup of your new website?"

GIVE: Here is a mock up of your website redesigned for maximum sales and conversion. I can get this launched for you in just 5 days."

ASK is a standard approach that likely will get a 1% conversion.

The GIVE is non-standard and likely will get a higher conversion, perhaps 10% or better, assuming you reach the right person. With GIVE, you see the product and the results -- no sales is needed other than quality of the product/design.

With Canva and other design tools making such "mocks" are pretty easily created.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

ASK: Hey, I noticed your website can use an update. Can I send you a mockup of your new website?"

GIVE: Here is a mock up of your website redesigned for maximum sales and conversion. I can get this launched for you in just 5 days."

Sorry MJ, but I have seen agencies / freelancers try to apply this method without any strong results. I have tried applying it myself at times, also without any strong results. So I am vehemently opposed to it, I don’t think it makes business sense or teaches people to start with the right mindset.

I am actually curious, is there anyone who does this here who is successful? Ie, growing a successful web design agency (>$200K+/yr revenues) in this case? Let them step forward…

I know several people like @RicardoGrande from Fox Web School who try this highly personalized, low volume approach (case in point:
Post in thread 'Exiting the cubicle farm and taking Web-Design full time'
HOT! - SIDE HUSTLE - WEB DESIGN - Exiting the cubicle farm and taking Web-Design full time)
. Most end up working days, months, to send 2,500 emails, and land 3-6 clients. In the same time, I’m sending 30,000 emails, and land 15 clients or so.

There are several problems:

1) Most cold outreach gets ignored or not even opened. Let’s say 60% get opened. Out of those that get opened maybe another 50% get read and given a fair hearing. This means that for every 10 people you contact, 7 won’t even bother… you’ll be spending time to create mockups for 7 people who won’t even consider your work. Why? Why not “rack the shotgun” first, see who is interested, and then invest in those who bothered to raise their hands?

2) I know I’ll receive some hatred for this, but priority number 1 in business is staying alive and making money, not serving people. If you don’t stay alive, nobody will be getting served anyway. Which means you need to make money, from people who are happy to pay you, without expecting you to stand on your head for it.

3) While you’re busy creating the mockups, I’m busy contacting 1,000s of people at once. Even with 1% conversion rate vs 10%, who will have more clients, and therefore more money if I contact 1000x the number of people you can contact with the GIVE first approch?

4) Every serious business takes first, and then gives. I go to a lawyer, I pay them, then I get served. I go to a doctor, I pay, then they treat me. I come on the fastlane forum, I pay first, then my ad gets served. Right? So why should I, as a business, devalue myself by doing what is essentially free work without getting paid first?

5) If someone offers to do something for free for me or gives me something free unsolicited, unless I already trust them and they’re not a stranger, I think “loser”. So do other people, because they know important people don’t do free work. They’re important.

6) You should never sell before you qualify. How do you know the guy needs or wants a website? Let’s say someone redid a design of my website, and emailed it to me, fully complete. I like it, and he claims it will increase conversions. I still can’t be bothered because I don’t really use my website for selling, so 50% improvement on 0 is still 0 lol… the poor guy wasted days of his life slaving away for nothing because he didn’t qualify me.

If this method works so well, I want to know where all the successful people using it are hiding? Because from what I see, the graveyards are littered with their bodies.

 

[Richard Peck]

@Fox interviewed my some years ago about finding website design clients.

My response was to unilaterally send out website redesign mocks.

Don't ask, give.

Applied in action:

ASK: Hey, I noticed your website can use an update. Can I send you a mockup of your new website?"

GIVE: Here is a mock up of your website redesigned for maximum sales and conversion. I can get this launched for you in just 5 days."

ASK is a standard approach that likely will get a 1% conversion.

The GIVE is non-standard and likely will get a higher conversion, perhaps 10% or better, assuming you reach the right person. With GIVE, you see the product and the results -- no sales is needed other than quality of the product/design.

With Canva and other design tools making such "mocks" are pretty easily created.

Sorry but this is bad advice. If you spend time on something like a mockup, it suggests you are low value with too much time on your hands. I've done it before and the results were bad. Especially with a market like web design - people are bombarded with 100's of offers a day in some cases because the barriers to entry are so low.

You need to solve deep problems that others cannot. If that happens to use web design, that's great. Ultimately, the value of a website comes how it helps achieve the formula "traffic x conversion = sales". What you're really innovating is either the ability to obtain more traffic, or convert more of it into valuable members of your community (which may or may not lead to sales). "Web design" plays as much a role in this as a fashion model -- it's important but icing on a bigger cake.

The real question is how to get leads for your own gig. @Andy Black advocates a softy softy approach. Whilst this may work for lower level clients, high performers won't respond favourably - they have very specific needs that only a few people can solve. You want to become one of those people.

The hallmark of high value is specificity. "Can I help you with financial advice?" is to "Are you looking to protect your assets with a Cook Islands trust?" as a hotdog stand is to a gourmet restaurant. The more specific you can afford to be whilst retaining relevancy, the more valuable your offer. On top of this, the most valuable people tell you - tersely - what they do. "We set up Cook Islands trusts to help millionaires protect their assets" vs "We're a boutique financial advice company in X town with Y employees. We help Z type employees boost their retirement savings with ___." --> the latter will never elevate because it's too broad and will mostly attract casual clients.

Sorry MJ, but I have seen agencies / freelancers try to apply this method without any strong results. I have tried applying it myself at times, also without any strong results. So I am vehemently opposed to it, I don’t think it makes business sense or teaches people to start with the right mindset.

I am actually curious, is there anyone who does this here who is successful? Ie, growing a successful web design agency (>$200K+/yr revenues) in this case? Let them step forward…

I know several people like @RicardoGrande from Fox Web School who try this highly personalized, low volume approach (case in point:
Post in thread 'Exiting the cubicle farm and taking Web-Design full time'
HOT! - SIDE HUSTLE - WEB DESIGN - Exiting the cubicle farm and taking Web-Design full time)
. Most end up working days, months, to send 2,500 emails, and land 3-6 clients. In the same time, I’m sending 30,000 emails, and land 15 clients or so.

There are several problems:

1) Most cold outreach gets ignored or not even opened. Let’s say 60% get opened. Out of those that get opened maybe another 50% get read and given a fair hearing. This means that for every 10 people you contact, 7 won’t even bother… you’ll be spending time to create mockups for 7 people who won’t even consider your work. Why? Why not “rack the shotgun” first, see who is interested, and then invest in those who bothered to raise their hands?

2) I know I’ll receive some hatred for this, but priority number 1 in business is staying alive and making money, not serving people. If you don’t stay alive, nobody will be getting served anyway. Which means you need to make money, from people who are happy to pay you, without expecting you to stand on your head for it.

3) While you’re busy creating the mockups, I’m busy contacting 1,000s of people at once. Even with 1% conversion rate vs 10%, who will have more clients, and therefore more money if I contact 1000x the number of people you can contact with the GIVE first approch?

4) Every serious business takes first, and then gives. I go to a lawyer, I pay them, then I get served. I go to a doctor, I pay, then they treat me. I come on the fastlane forum, I pay first, then my ad gets served. Right? So why should I, as a business, devalue myself by doing what is essentially free work without getting paid first?

5) If someone offers to do something for free for me or gives me something free unsolicited, unless I already trust them and they’re not a stranger, I think “loser”. So do other people, because they know important people don’t do free work. They’re important.

6) You should never sell before you qualify. How do you know the guy needs or wants a website? Let’s say someone redid a design of my website, and emailed it to me, fully complete. I like it, and he claims it will increase conversions. I still can’t be bothered because I don’t really use my website for selling, so 50% improvement on 0 is still 0 lol… the poor guy wasted days of his life slaving away for nothing because he didn’t qualify me.

If this method works so well, I want to know where all the successful people using it are hiding? Because from what I see, the graveyards are littered with their bodies.

This is nearer to what you need to be aiming for - leverage born of having actually solved the problem already.

In the end, every business is selling results. The quality and quantity of results determine how much + how many people are willing to buy them. The best businesses work on generating results first and offering them on the market afterwards.

To this end, they generally don't need to be doing "cold outreach" because they already are engage in a more structured & systemic approach, which would typically involve using promotional techniques to build brand awareness before a more targeted approach for decision makers ("Lucy choosy the stationery buyer!" - my first job out of school was basically to figure out how to get Lucy to like the company I worked for so she'd recommend them to her boss; the company paid this guy £1k a day to tell them how to do this). None of that works without a unique + potent set of results to offer in the first place.

Sounds difficult? That's because it is. The "power dynamic" Tudor mentioned above (IE a business doesn't give a F*ck whether you care about them or not, just make sure you can pay) is how all successful transactions occur in a capitalistic system. Men who complain about dating = low value. People spending hours on mockups to outreach = low value.

The solution is to work like a dog on the shittiest level projects possible in order to build your experience. Use that experience to develop a set of unique systems/processes which you can eventually start to adapt to providing specific - highly valuable - results. Once you achieve this, you can then productize the result and a business slowly starts to form.

That process is so hard because of the amount of will you need to pull it off. This is why most never get anywhere; the weaker ones are drawn to the easiest path, which typically involves the latest bullshit craze like reposting "dank memes" on TikTok or sending out mockups because someone may bite and you'll get money. None of those things work on a big scale because they are highly commodified. You need to do extremely difficult things - that only you can do - so you get unique & highly valuable results. Excellent marketers then sell the results (not their solution) to generate demand - which you then work extremely hard on positioning your company as the best at offering.

 

[amp0193]

Let's break down a cold email pitch I got this morning.

This one is better than most that I get, as it's from a legitimate agency that is not just starting out. But it's still awful.



What would "giving" be in this context?

Maybe in this case it would be a 1-3 solid and specific pitch ideas "for free". Here's what this would do:

1. Show me your PR ability. Can you understand my brand, and how it fits into the zeitgeist, and can you come up with a couple of quick creative and original pitches with a unique angle and great hook? (probably not... because your subject line was "question Sarah"... no reporter is going to respond to lame bullshit like that...) And if the sample pitches are exceptional... I could go and flesh them out myself, and go pitch them myself (but I'm busy and no expert on PR), but more than likely I might say "that sounds great, let's try it".


Square 1 though is having a truly exceptional product or service. If you can't deliver at the highest level... well the best pitch in the world isn't going to get you any business.

 

[Andy Black]

The take away is provide free value first rather than asking for something directly, moving forward ill keep a tab on the person i want to connect with and see if they have any problems and provide a free solution to it in someway

Perfect. Become a problem solver. It's so hard to find problem solvers that business owners take notice when one crosses their path.

Oh, I just added a short video to the opening post that might help too.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Sorry MJ, but I have seen agencies / freelancers try to apply this method without any strong results. I have tried applying it myself at times, also without any strong results. So I am vehemently opposed to it, I don’t think it makes business sense or teaches people to start with the right mindset.

I am actually curious, is there anyone who does this here who is successful? Ie, growing a successful web design agency (>$200K+/yr revenues) in this case? Let them step forward…

I know several people like @RicardoGrande from Fox Web School who try this highly personalized, low volume approach (case in point:
Post in thread 'Exiting the cubicle farm and taking Web-Design full time'
HOT! - SIDE HUSTLE - WEB DESIGN - Exiting the cubicle farm and taking Web-Design full time)
. Most end up working days, months, to send 2,500 emails, and land 3-6 clients. In the same time, I’m sending 30,000 emails, and land 15 clients or so.

There are several problems:

1) Most cold outreach gets ignored or not even opened. Let’s say 60% get opened. Out of those that get opened maybe another 50% get read and given a fair hearing. This means that for every 10 people you contact, 7 won’t even bother… you’ll be spending time to create mockups for 7 people who won’t even consider your work. Why? Why not “rack the shotgun” first, see who is interested, and then invest in those who bothered to raise their hands?

2) I know I’ll receive some hatred for this, but priority number 1 in business is staying alive and making money, not serving people. If you don’t stay alive, nobody will be getting served anyway. Which means you need to make money, from people who are happy to pay you, without expecting you to stand on your head for it.

3) While you’re busy creating the mockups, I’m busy contacting 1,000s of people at once. Even with 1% conversion rate vs 10%, who will have more clients, and therefore more money if I contact 1000x the number of people you can contact with the GIVE first approch?

4) Every serious business takes first, and then gives. I go to a lawyer, I pay them, then I get served. I go to a doctor, I pay, then they treat me. I come on the fastlane forum, I pay first, then my ad gets served. Right? So why should I, as a business, devalue myself by doing what is essentially free work without getting paid first?

5) If someone offers to do something for free for me or gives me something free unsolicited, unless I already trust them and they’re not a stranger, I think “loser”. So do other people, because they know important people don’t do free work. They’re important.

6) You should never sell before you qualify. How do you know the guy needs or wants a website? Let’s say someone redid a design of my website, and emailed it to me, fully complete. I like it, and he claims it will increase conversions. I still can’t be bothered because I don’t really use my website for selling, so 50% improvement on 0 is still 0 lol… the poor guy wasted days of his life slaving away for nothing because he didn’t qualify me.

If this method works so well, I want to know where all the successful people using it are hiding? Because from what I see, the graveyards are littered with their bodies.

Congrats, you apply the same marketing strategy as Nigerian con artists and email phishing scammers.

My approach was for those who never sold anything—for beginners looking to get their feet wet—not an established web agency.

Once I had a web portfolio, I didn't need to market any longer as I had plenty of referrals.

Also, I don't view the effectiveness of this as a quantity approach, but quality.

This strategy I described has worked on me multiple times (just like @amp0193 reported as well) and I get dozens of cold emails daily ... delete, delete, delete.

I wouldn't do a mock unless I absolutely I had the lead locked down and I knew I had a guaranteed open. And "mocks" in this day and age would literally take me a few minutes.

An example of this would be visiting a nearby restaurant and then sending an email, "My visit to your restaurant the other day..." Or for example, my chiropractor. His website is atrocious. Will he open an email from his patient, a patient who tells him his website sucks?

In my tiny little world here, I could have a half-dozen clients in a matter of weeks using this approach. And the "problem" of getting off the ground with experience and a portfolio, solved.

Zero to 1 is the biggest problem most people have.

The hallmark of high value is specificity.

When I open an email and the content is high specificity, it gets my attention. So my "bad advice" is merely recommending what you just recommended.

I got 7 cold-emails this morning, all using the same boiler plate subjects, boiler-plate content, blah blah.

All 7 of them were deleted because I could tell they were "shot-gun" with zero specificity to my business, and my needs.

Does the "shot-gun" approach work as BD screams? I'm sure it does -- all the scammers use it, so I know it works.

However, if you've been in business for X years and you still NEED to blast your message everywhere indiscriminately, it inherently tells me you lack referrals, and if you lack referrals, that indicates a more pressing problem.

 

[Oden]

Good feedback.

Personally I wouldn't just send something like that cold. I'd likely already be in some sort of conversation with them. Then instead of asking to show what I can do for them I'd just knock something up quick and "show, don't tell".

If it was a LinkedIn message or reply to you I might just post:

"Hi Olov. I loved this post so much I turned it into a carousel. Feel free to use it!
<link>."

Then, poof, I'm gone.

If you reply great. If not it doesn't matter, I'm already chatting to someone else. If you're suspicious of a free gift then that's ok too. I'm still up the road chatting to different people.

Aha, I thought it was cold messages. Then I apologize, I misunderstood.

For sure, if someone that I've been in contact with sent that message it would be a different story.

I might have been too harsh. I didn't mean to come across as negative. I like your strategy.

Hmmm what makes you think that way as if they are trying to attach a fishing hook to me also what is the method you use to reach out to new people?

I get emails and messages daily with people trying to persuade me into hiring them, buying their services or whatever. After a few years, it becomes quite annoying having to sort through all the attempts of persuasion.

I rather have people be upfront with what they can offer and how it can benefit me. Without the a$$-kissing and fakeness. Note, I'm not saying that's what Andy does - rather the opposite. He seem to be doing exactly how I think business and offers should be made. I just thought this was cold messages being sent out.

I don't sell any service, so I rarely have to reach out to new people.

 

[amp0193]

My response was to unilaterally send out website redesign mocks.

I get a dozen cold emails a day. They are all bad.

If there was a good one, I would read it out of sheer amazement.

Your suggestion here is a good one, really just anything to stand out and show that the person you are reaching out to is not one of hundreds on a cold email list.

Genuine personalization will get responses. And a sentence of info about “oh I like your product x what a great idea [rest of the pitch]” doesn’t count.

 

[Paul David]

How do you know? Have you done it?

As an example, about 2 years ago I sent 30 video looms one day — actual personalized looms, with the people’s website opened in the background, and a thumbnail so they could see that. You know what the results were?

8 people viewed them. The others completely ignored them.

And out of the 8 who viewed them, 2 responded, and they weren’t qualified.

Automated personalization at scale does work. But just overinvesting in low volume personalization, in today’s market, doesn’t get results. If you don’t believe me, go ahead and try it, then report back on your findings.

I prefer to use cold emails that get people into thinking they’re personalized, such as saying “Happy Friday!” Or whatever day of the week it is. And then personalizing heavily based on their industry and things that are true for the majority in that industry. Plus adding specificity. Sort of like cold reading in person. This maximises response rates, indeed, and can be done lazily and at massive scale.

Anecdotal experience from what you think you’d do in that situation is irrelevant, because you’re not most people. Most people who post on the fastlane forum, are, for example, more intelligent than your average human being. They’re also more willing to socialize than most people, that’s why they’re on a forum.

Most people aren’t like this. They just obey rules unconsciously. “Don’t work with strangers” = regardless of what the cold email says, ignore it. If you land on a person like that, it simply doesn’t matter what you say or don’t say in the email, nothing will happen. Your hyper personalization is wasted on them.

Agee but also depends on what you’re selling and the price.

I would never personalise every first cold outreach message. I only personalise the reply to the ones that respond to my initial question.

And the reason I personalise on the second one is because I can show them an exact result of how my system works demonstrated on their actual customer.

It takes me around 20 seconds to personalise the response email.

 

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[amp0193]

I haven’t done a ton cold outreach myself, but one thing I’ve done is celeb partnerships (1M+ social followers, usually a TV or other presence as well).

Here’s what that process looked like:

1) Hours of research to find someone who is likely to be a perfect match to our product.

2) Short and to the point 2 sentence pitch.

3) Hit them on every possible channel to increase odds of that message being seen in their deluge of an inbox. (I did a deal with a top 50 YouTuber. The cold email that got through was the one I sent addressed to his wife, to her company’s customer service inbox. But I also messaged every social channel etc. as well).

If I do a good job in step #1, then step #2 and #3 don’t feel like spam to the receiver.


Maybe 50% of those pitches turned into a successful deal, so extremely good hit rate. But it’s a ton more time investment than just filling up a cold email software with scraped email addresses and hoping for the best.(which I did in the past with another business).

 

[EthanH]

but andy dont you think people might just ignore it and think woah we are getting our glasses cleaned for free why care? @Subsonic

I'm the guy Andy was talking about. My version of this was by cleaning road signs and sharing the results in community groups. I'm sure that many people don't care but the thing is, many people do. People see that I'm providing value first and not asking for anything in return. If you give enough, people will start wanting to help you in return. And so what if nothing comes from it. You'll have provided value to the community and helped someone out regardless.

 

[Oden]

Good question. @Olov... what emails or PMs catch your attention?

Mostly it's straight-to-the-point stuff.

"Hey,

I see that you have X, I can help you improve it with Y. I attached some of my work"

But I don't think that's a winning strategy in general. It works on me, but probably not on the majority. I'm an old, grumpy man.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Genuine personalization will get responses.

How do you know? Have you done it?

As an example, about 2 years ago I sent 30 video looms one day — actual personalized looms, with the people’s website opened in the background, and a thumbnail so they could see that. You know what the results were?

8 people viewed them. The others completely ignored them.

And out of the 8 who viewed them, 2 responded, and they weren’t qualified.

Automated personalization at scale does work. But just overinvesting in low volume personalization, in today’s market, doesn’t get results. If you don’t believe me, go ahead and try it, then report back on your findings.

I prefer to use cold emails that get people into thinking they’re personalized, such as saying “Happy Friday!” Or whatever day of the week it is. And then personalizing heavily based on their industry and things that are true for the majority in that industry. Plus adding specificity. Sort of like cold reading in person. This maximises response rates, indeed, and can be done lazily and at massive scale.

Anecdotal experience from what you think you’d do in that situation is irrelevant, because you’re not most people. Most people who post on the fastlane forum, are, for example, more intelligent than your average human being. They’re also more willing to socialize than most people, that’s why they’re on a forum.

Most people aren’t like this. They just obey rules unconsciously. “Don’t work with strangers” = regardless of what the cold email says, ignore it. If you land on a person like that, it simply doesn’t matter what you say or don’t say in the email, nothing will happen. Your hyper personalization is wasted on them.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

The hallmark of high value is specificity. "Can I help you with financial advice?" is to "Are you looking to protect your assets with a Cook Islands trust?" as a hotdog stand is to a gourmet restaurant.

Yes but... it may not be a good idea to market yourself as the "Are you looking to protect your assets with a Cook Islands trust" guy because it narrows your appeal. Then the difficulty becomes how do I find or get found by all those guys looking to get a Cook Islands trust (and there aren't that many to start with)?

Some doors are only opened by referrals. For example, if you wanted to open a Cook Islands trust for Bill Gates, the only way that deal would get through is if someone from Bill's network introduced you. Bill simply doesn't work with losers outside of his network (and by definition, if you're outside his network, you ARE a loser lol), regardless of what you'd write in your cold email or say in a cold call.

If a door is opened by referrals, it doesn't matter how you market yourself. If Bill gets told by someone he trusts that @rpeck90 is the go-to guy for opening a Cook Islands trust, it doesn't matter that you market yourself as "financial advisory" or whatever else.

In the long run, the only thing that will save you (and all of us) is massive authority. It's more important than product, results, audience or anything else.

Look at Alex Hormozi. He came out with an average product at best. It's called $100M Offers. Then he bankrolled an operation to get his content out everywhere in massive quantities. He appeared on the biggest podcasts. He got his book in the hands of the biggest influencers. And so on. Now, Alex is a household name. People want to work with him just because of his brand. A brand built on an average (I'd actually say below average) product, a vague story of some success, and say $1,000,000 worth of invested capital to bankroll the content production (maybe much less, but I'm just throwing a number). Now Alex can do anything.

And he's nothing special. Really. Most of his content is incoherent and makes no sense – to a trained marketer at least. Most of his advice is nonsense or basic, beginner-level stuff. He's the exact opposite, in fact, of what you advocate for. He is successful primarily because of his brand and also his network – the people he knows. And yet, business owners flock to his feet to get "saved". By him. And they listen to his advice. Why? Because they've been told to listen to his advice by the media. So authority is the ultimate advantage.

 

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[Richard Peck]

Yes but... it may not be a good idea to market yourself as the "Are you looking to protect your assets with a Cook Islands trust" guy because it narrows your appeal. Then the difficulty becomes how do I find or get found by all those guys looking to get a Cook Islands trust (and there aren't that many to start with)?

Some doors are only opened by referrals. For example, if you wanted to open a Cook Islands trust for Bill Gates, the only way that deal would get through is if someone from Bill's network introduced you. Bill simply doesn't work with losers outside of his network (and by definition, if you're outside his network, you ARE a loser lol), regardless of what you'd write in your cold email or say in a cold call.

The example was obviously protracted but point taken. When you start dealing with higher level people in any industry, my experience is they tend to have a narrower focus.

For example, a software company could say "we make apps" or they could "make apps to help banks secure their backend digital infrastructure in X way". The former opens the door to the myriad of lower tier projects to make a restaurant table booking app etc, the latter a very specific set of industry-specific features that could be mission critical. The important point is the latter requires at least some level of specialized knowledge (possibly also industry connections) which creates barriers that others are not willing, or able, to surmount - akin to the Bill Gates example you shared.

Now Alex can do anything.

I would disagree with this point. A lot of these gurus are playing to the peanut gallery. The reason is many young men (and some women, but it's mostly guys) are drawn to people like this because they promise an "out" from the 9-5 slave grind. Andrew Tate was one of the more recent ones and there have been a long line preceding him.

Whilst you and I share this ideal too, the difference is we actually committed to putting in the work rather than watching some guy online detailing what are very basic points. Most people haven't read a book in years, are devoid of any sort of intellectual curiosity and are, consequently, lost. They want to be entertained. Hormozi, and others, provide that entertainment under the guise of business growth.

If the content you're consuming is not aimed at helping you achieve some level of advantage, it's likely a waste of time. Not to say you should forgo entertainment but there is a difference between watching videos on success and actually doing it.

So my "bad advice" is merely recommending what you just recommended.

With respect, I still think it was bad advice in the context through which it was posted. Generally, it's good advice, especially to young people coming into the world of work. But to give the idea that you can just make website mockups and you'll start getting quality responses is not likely going to be helpful. Regardless of how personal an approach is, its value is still going to depend on the situation. I see you later clarified this, so I apologise if my retort was abrupt.

For context, I actually did exactly what you suggested with the guy who runs Men's Clothing & Formal Menswear | Charles Tyrwhitt - he and his wife are heavy hitters in the UK and I was fortunate enough to get a meeting with him when trying to raise money for a SaaS thing I was working on 10 years ago. I met him in his offices in London, he didn't really give a shit and I went back up north without any investment. When I got back, I did a whole mockup for his site and sent it via email and said I could do that sort of work if he needed it. Zero reply. I was able to get the meeting in the first place because I told him that he was an inspiration to me and made me quit my job. Not entirely true but most people are vain and it worked. He famously publishes his email for "feedback from his customers". Same guy invested into Feefo and a social media company, both of which got bought for £10m's.

A funny tidbit for @Black_Dragon43 - that Nick guy actually told me he was "one of the biggest junk mailers in the UK" (verbatim)... so perhaps the carpet-bombing approach worked for him ;-)

If a free mockup is part of a prospecting / lead gen process (basically what @Black_Dragon43 was saying about warming leads up first), then, yes, it may have a lot of value if you have the time & inclination to do it. However, if someone just sent me a mockup for a website unsolicited, I would presume them to be struggling or brand new. I wouldn't expect anyone who's established to be doing it unless they clearly state they need the work.

 

[Andy Black]

Yes there are, but I haven't figured out how to approach them successfully. I can't just be like "Hey, nice to meet you. I'd like to give you a chance to install an additional profit center for your business that takes 0 work from you and will provide a steady-stream of 100% profit. All you'd have to do is introduce me to your clients for agency growth and I'd pay you an ongoing x% referral fee. Let's start with one client of your choice, as a test, shall we?"

I did have some ideas about running my webinar (or make it into a seminar) to their clients, that way I can have them add value to their client-base that they couldn't add without me, and I get to pitch the clients at the end + they'd get a share of any clients that came through.

I guess that the issue is that I don't have experience with it, no one taught be how to approach or do this type of deal, which is slowing me down

I'm the kind of person who needs to know the steps in advance... not an exact script, but a strategy. How to open the convo, what to propose, etc.

How can you get on their radar?

How can you start a conversation in such a way they get something of value and reply with a Thank You?

What can you give them that's a "show, don't tell" of the value you can provide?





I used to bounce around in Facebook groups where I'm a peer (e.g. groups for people growing memberships or courses). People in those groups would *invite* me into their groups as an expert.

An example is a guy who ran a Facebook group of 14,000+ PT instructors. "Hi everyone. I'm delighted to have Andy in the group. He's an expert at Google Ads and can help you get more leads from Google."

He gets a resource for his group for free, I get introduced by the group owner.

Win-win. (Except PT instructors aren't a great fit for me so I gradually got quieter in that group.)

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Would you reply if you were a coach interested to impact more people who posted actively on Instagram and were obsessed about "making a difference" in people's lives, as most coaches are, or at minimum claim to be?

No, I wouldn't.

I get a dozen of these weekly. In fact, it looks like you use the same boiler-plate approach they use.

They all read EXACTLY the same, so you failed to differentiate yourself (in my eyes) and instead, demonstrated you are just one among thousands using the same playbook.

Delete.

That said, if this works on people, more power to you.

I hate superhero movies as I feel they cater to mindless morons.

And yet, millions pay millions to see them. One person's experience (and opinion [mine]) does not represent the whole.

 

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[Benny.Liquid]

I really love this ideology. Been backed up by a lot of salespeople I've been talking to and was something that I didn't realize I had been telling a friend for years. You should just do things for the sake of doing them. The key takeaway in my version with my friend is that you are applying yourself to something and adding something to the world. The value is what is important not the reward.

When I set out to write my sci-fi books, it started as a campaign setting that I called Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit (Nothing Comes From Nothing). In which the story was pre-structured, and if a player did nothing in the world, then they would arrive at a conclusion that yielded nothing. However, players who made actions in the world, positive or negative, would yield a different conclusion. One that was conclusive to their choices through their time playing the game. After a serious amount of worldbuilding I scrap the game idea, and structure plots around the original ideas of the game.

 

[shubham___3011]

The take away is provide free value first rather than asking for something directly, moving forward ill keep a tab on the person i want to connect with and see if they have any problems and provide a free solution to it in someway

 

[Oden]

I know it's just an example, but if I received a message like that I would just think it's weird.

I sometimes get similar stuff to my business inbox, and my immediate reaction is "ok, so what's his real motive here?" Almost as if I can feel them trying to attach a fishing hook on me, in hopes that I won't notice.

But perhaps I'm an outlier and people react differently.

I agree with the idea though. It's about what you can provide and offer.

 

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[Andy Black]

I know it's just an example, but if I received a message like that I would just think it's weird.

I sometimes get similar stuff to my business inbox, and my immediate reaction is "ok, so what's his real motive here?" Almost as if I can feel them trying to attach a fishing hook on me, in hopes that I won't notice.

But perhaps I'm an outlier and people react differently.

I agree with the idea though. It's about what you can provide and offer.

Good feedback.

Personally I wouldn't just send something like that cold. I'd likely already be in some sort of conversation with them. Then instead of asking to show what I can do for them I'd just knock something up quick and "show, don't tell".

If it was a LinkedIn message or reply to you I might just post:

"Hi Olov. I loved this post so much I turned it into a carousel. Feel free to use it!
<link>."

Then, poof, I'm gone.

If you reply great. If not it doesn't matter, I'm already chatting to someone else. If you're suspicious of a free gift then that's ok too. I'm still up the road chatting to different people and having a ball. (That's not meant in any kind of passive-aggressive way. I literally post or email and keep on going. I log into the forum, post, and bugger off.)

 

[Andy Black]

Mostly it's straight-to-the-point stuff.

"Hey,

I see that you have X, I can help you improve it with Y. I attached some of my work"

But I don't think that's a winning strategy in general. It works on me, but probably not on the majority. I'm an old, grumpy man.

I'm a grumpy old man too. You've seen my avatar right?

Ok, not always grumpy, but I do facepalm at the horrendous long cold messages and emails that spam me. LinkedIn seems to have cleaned that up, or maybe my avatar scares people off.

For context, here's what got me to create this thread:

HOT! - CHAT - Random Chat, Thoughts, Posts, and/or Rants Thread

Very random observation recently. I have noticed a bunch of people dropping out of college or going straight from secondary (high) school into construction. Maybe not a big deal in the US but Ireland has the 3rd highest - third level education achievement in the world. Our whole country is...

www.thefastlaneforum.com

 

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[jclean]

This week I did a promotion in a written advertising paper ( we never do this we focus on google en FB ads)

The newzpaper liked my promotion so much they let me be on the front page for free with a big article.

This has been distributed to 65,000 addresses
In my area started on monday

My action : we come to wash windows for free to a maximum of 20 windows inside and outside: result so far 102 and counting potential customers in my crm system.
About 15 have already been converted as paying customers.

We are entering the slow season and I want to counter this as much as possible these leads again give me the opportunity to generate additional work. For now and for many years to come since that window washing is recurring.

The reciprocity principle is one of the basic laws of social psychology: It says that in many social situations we pay back what we received from others.

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

Agee but also depends on what you’re selling and the price.

I would never personalise every first cold outreach message. I only personalise the reply to the ones that respond to my initial question.

And the reason I personalise on the second one is because I can show them an exact result of how my system works demonstrated on their actual customer.

It takes me around 20 seconds to personalise the response email.

Oh, I fully agree with going highly personalized to people who engage. It's worth the effort at that point!

 

[amp0193]

How do you know? Have you done it?

Because when I receive one from someone, I respond to it. I get about 1000 cold emails a year, and only a few are any good.

When done right, they don’t even feel like a pitch.

The loom pitches like you mentioned I ignore and delete though. Maybe because they are always accompanied by an obvious copy/paste template. I wasn’t speaking to MJ’s idea of mock-ups specifically, just that tailoring your email to the sender is a lot more effective than just spamming a template email.

I think the looms suck because I’m in “busy inbox mode” and I can’t skim them in 3 seconds. Too much of a commitment to make me watch something. (Same reason I don’t like using looms for internal SOPs… not skimmable).

But if a CRO person sent me a specific bullet point list of everything that sucked on my main PDP and how to fix it… and it was clear they knew exactly what they were talking about, I’d certainly respond, especially so if I was already thinking the website needed some work.

But I’ve never gotten an email like that. Just generic templates.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Congrats, you apply the same marketing strategy as Nigerian con artists and email phishing scammers.

It is a great honor to be associated with these fine gentlemen

(just kidding lol)

My approach was for those who never sold anything—for beginners looking to get their feet wet—not an established web agency.

Once I had a web portfolio, I didn't need to market any longer as I had plenty of referrals.

This is a good point, but does this happen nowadays? The web design field is now extremely crowded. The same is true for most other digital agencies, regardless of service. This wasn't the case when you did web design, it's a very very different market today. Many agencies out there have amazing case studies, social proof, testimonials, whatever you want... yet they still struggle to get new clients. Or get barely enough to stay afloat.

Not to mention the pressure that exists on price. What makes you think that your web agency would be different once you had a portfolio?

Also, I don't view the effectiveness of this as a quantity approach, but quality.

I agree, quality matters, but so does quantity. Quality matters most in terms of attracting high-quality businesses. In my case, there is no difference quality-wise between the businesses that are attracted with mass outreach vs personalized outreach – churn rate is the same, spending is the same, client quality is the same. The only difference would be response rates, which would be higher with personalized, but not worth the effort because you lose too much on quantity.

Here's an example of mass outreach, going out to coaches who are active on Instagram with content and have at least 1 podcast appearance:

I hope you're wrapping up a fantastic week MJ [because it's friday, this personalization can be done at scale]! I've taken some time to review the content you've put out recently on Instagram – it's truly top-notch. It did catch my attention that your reach doesn't reflect the caliber of your content.

Are you interested to impact a lot more people?

I only ask because I've noticed certain strategies missing from your approach – strategies that have significantly boosted organic growth and credibility for many of the coaches our PR agency worked for including X, Y, Z, and Z2 [household names like Jay Shetty].

Given the exceptional content you produce, I genuinely believe you could amplify your impact and make a difference in a lot more people's lives.

Would you be available for a 15-minute conversation? I'd like to offer an overview of a potential strategy at no cost, expand on the elements you're currently missing out on, and if it feels right, explore the next steps together.

Would you reply if you were a coach interested to impact more people who posted actively on Instagram and were obsessed about "making a difference" in people's lives, as most coaches are, or at minimum claim to be?

I think you dislike mass outreach simply because you haven't seen how the real pros do it, just the Nigerian scammers who don't even target it well.

In my tiny little world here, I could have a half-dozen clients in a matter of weeks using this approach. And the "problem" of getting off the ground with experience and a portfolio, solved.

Zero to 1 is the biggest problem most people have.

Right, but this approach is only available if you're US-based and maybe in a few other areas like the UK. If you need to acquire your customers 100% online, then it's a different ballgame. And I'd warrant to say that most newbies on the fastlane forum are in this bucket.

However, if you've been in business for X years and you still NEED to blast your message everywhere indiscriminately, it inherently tells me you lack referrals, and if you lack referrals, that indicates a more pressing problem.

When did I say "indiscriminately"? No, your targeting should be on point. But yes, you should blast your email to your entire available target market to whom its relevant, if possible and you can handle the inflow of clients that it would bring. Why not?

As for referrals... Less than 5% of my business is referrals. Most of my customers don't refer. Recently I've had one guy who was with us since 8 months ago or so, refer another company, and that company refer a third one. The result of that, is that they're all worried now that they will be competing against each other over the same audience, because they all offer the same service lol.

I've never found referrals useful. Maybe if you meet people face to face, go to dinner with them, etc., then they might refer. But not really for a digital business that doesn't rely on face-to-face networking. So in this situation, how am I to take advantage of referrals?

 

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[Richard Peck]

Slight disagreement.

The hallmark is not specificity. Most entreprenuers don't know what to Cook Islands trust is. Therefore, saying something that they don't know about is not actually specificity. Because they don't know what you're talking about.

And that's what makes this work. It's giving the appearance of specificity. It's also a display of knowledge. It's a credibility builder.

A business mentor of mine said if you want responses, be vague but interesting, without appearing vague.

If you were to email me, I would "have to" email you back to find out what a Cook Islands trust even is...

And thus, the conversation has begun.

That was part of my point --> operating at the higher levels, you need to be able to show you know things the other party does not. If you're able to present it in a matter-of-fact way, it piques their interest and they bite.

I only mentioned the Cook Islands thing because I read it on Twitter the other day. Didn't know about it myself before then

 

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[BizyDad]

Yes there are, but I haven't figured out how to approach them successfully. I can't just be like "Hey, nice to meet you. I'd like to give you a chance to install an additional profit center for your business that takes 0 work from you and will provide a steady-stream of 100% profit. All you'd have to do is introduce me to your clients for agency growth and I'd pay you an ongoing x% referral fee. Let's start with one client of your choice, as a test, shall we?"

I did have some ideas about running my webinar (or make it into a seminar) to their clients, that way I can have them add value to their client-base that they couldn't add without me, and I get to pitch the clients at the end + they'd get a share of any clients that came through.

I guess that the issue is that I don't have experience with it, no one taught be how to approach or do this type of deal, which is slowing me down

I'm the kind of person who needs to know the steps in advance... not an exact script, but a strategy. How to open the convo, what to propose, etc.

Ok, first of all...

You literally just listed 2 strategies that absolutely work "in the real world". Shut up and do it. Stop talking like a noob. You're supposed to be a heavy hitter.

And second of all...

The second strategy, the one you seem to like better, involves Giving first.

So you pretty much demonstrated/proved the point that Andy and MJ and others were saying... which you had been arguing against.

vehemently opposed to it,

You were against it, before you were for it. And you call me the politician?

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

For example, a software company could say "we make apps" or they could "make apps to help banks secure their backend digital infrastructure in X way". The former opens the door to the myriad of lower tier projects to make a restaurant table booking app etc, the latter a very specific set of industry-specific features that could be mission critical.

I agree, but what I'm trying to say is that is that you can't force that kind of specificity/niching down.

You can't put your banner up tomorrow saying "we make apps to help banks secure their backend digital infrastructure" and start hunting after banks. At least I have big reservations that this approach would be successful. Maybe it would, if you got a co-founder with expertise in the banking sector, so you could use their expertise / case studies to get a foot in the door. But even then, you'd need to learn how banks buy their security solutions, the sales process itself can be a big challenge as well at that level.

So how could you build that business starting from scratch? You really can't. The only "real" way I see of doing that is to get a job in banking, rise up, and at some point when your network grows, go into that. I'm more of a build something from scratch kinda guy personally.

How can you start a conversation in such a way they get something of value and reply with a Thank You?

Hunt down their LinkedIn posts, website and online presence for a genuine super-specific compliment I can give them to build some rapport. "John, saw you took part in the Bath Half Marathon last week, that's really cool, congrats for it. What charity did you run for? I ran it myself about 9 years ago." Then chat a little about it. Then move the discussion to the fact we both serve agencies. Then ask him if he provides any additional value to agencies aside from [service]. Then propose him the webinar.

You literally just listed 2 strategies that absolutely work "in the real world". Shut up and do it. Stop talking like a noob. You're supposed to be a heavy hitter.

Discipline, I love it!

You were against it, before you were for it. And you call me the politician?

Is the Trojan Horse an act of giving too? I see it as a traffic generation strategy. I already run the webinar for myself, so I wouldn't create anything new for them. More like I'd put their logo as well on the material, give them the emails to send to their clients to promote it (pretty much the same emails I send myself), and then run it. So there is almost no free work involved here, unless you call me running my webinar free work, which I do anyway, just not with their traffic, as part of my own marketing. I'm against doing free samples, etc., because I'd rather invest that time in my own marketing, which will keep paying me, than in doing one-off work for people who aren't paying to begin with, most of whom would ignore it anyway.