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What BOX have you locked yourself up in?

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Andreas Thiel

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Not so sure about the utility of this thinking exercise.

Gonna summarize the the big one as:
I am a hardship case that has too many intertwined issues which can't be solved one after the other

Seems like the boxes I see are rock solid and all the poking, prodding, and questioning I have done has only reaffirmed the fear that I can't do anything about ... anything.
 
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Jerma

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I agree and relate with this thread. I had to force myself out of a box just to post this: "I am a lurker. People don't care about what I think". This is actually a subject I think about a lot.

Boxes serve one purpose— to contain and limit. When you put yourself in a box, you contain and limit your growth. Period.

I think I disagree here, though. Instead, I believe that the boxes serves one crucial function: Survival of the current self (safety).

Also, after reading the post, I'm left thinking: "Ok, let's say I'm in a box. What do I do about it??"

I think there's a trap here. The trap of taking what I call the "bullshit" approach.

For example:
I am shy. => (bullshit) => I am NOT shy!
I am not an entrepreneur. => (bullshit) => I am an entrepreneur!
I'm not a good people person. => (bullshit) => I'm a good person!

Even if you repeat it over and over again... I feel like deep down if you know it's not true, it probably won't change anything. I think you can definitely bullshit yourself, but you can't really lie to yourself.

I also think that there's a pitfall at the other end too. The positive boxes are also traps.

For example:
Let's say I believe "I am an entrepreneur," then I might not take a job that would be key to my growth. Or if I think "I am smart," then I might not admit my mistakes or avoid doing anything complicated (so I won't undermine my belief).

IMO, the real move is to transcend the dichotomy and go to the next level (going meta). You don't deny the problem. You re-contextualize the problem as not being part of your identity.

It makes me think about Dr. Robert Kegan "constructive developmental framework." According to him, becoming a high-functioning adult is a multi-staged process. Most people (65% of the general population) never get past stage 3 out of 5 stages.

Stage 1: Purely impulse or reflex-driven (infancy and early childhood).

Stage 2: The person's sense of self is ruled by their needs and wishes. The needs and wishes of others are relevant only to the extent that they support those of the person. Effectively the person and others inhabit two "separate worlds" (childhood to adolescence).

Stage 3: The person's sense of self is socially determined, based on the real or imagined expectations of others (post-adolescence).

Stage 4: The person's sense of self is determined by a set of values that they have authored for themselves (rarely achieved, only in adulthood).

Stage 5: The person's sense of self is no longer bound to any particular aspect of themselves or their history, and they are free to allow themselves to focus on the flow of their lives.
source

The ideas in this thread are around stage 4 (top 36%). In stage 4, you gain something called "Self-authorship," where you can define and reshape your beliefs. This is the stage where self-help becomes important.

The key to moving up stages isn't learning new things (put more stuff in the box); it's changing the way we know things (changing the actual box). That's what Kegan calls the subject-object shift.

The subject-object shift happens when we move something we believe from Subject to Object.

Subject ("I AM") — Self-concepts we are attached to and thus cannot reflect on or take an objective look at. They include personality traits, assumptions about how the world works, behaviors, emotions, etc.​
Object ("I HAVE") — Self-concepts that we can detach ourselves from. That we can look at, reflect upon, engage, control and connect to something else.​

For example:
I'm not a person who reads books. => (shift) => I haven't made reading books an habit.
I'm not a good writer. => (shift) => I have no experience writing forum post.
I'm not a good leader. => (shift) => I have bad memories of trying to lead a group.

The shift is powerful IMO, because we have natural self-preservation tendencies (survival), and those same tendencies extend to our conceptions of ourselves. So the moment something stops being part of the Subject, it becomes a lot easier to change.

The way I see it, the boxes (Subject) filter how we see the world. It's like semi-transparent. Let's say you are in a pink box, then everything you see through the box in the world is also pink. You might be so used to being in the pink box that you don't even notice you are in the pink box. It might be painfully obvious for everybody around you that you are in a pink box, but for you, the box IS you, it's just "life." That's why the entire process is mostly transparent. It takes a lot of awareness to see the boxes because we spend most of our lives seeing through them. Also, as long as you think that the box is "true" and part of you, you won't question it or attempt to change it. You won't look for counter-evidences. You might even fight really hard if someone else tries to undermine your box because your box is part of your survival.

A good blog post about Kegan theory here.
 

Boogie

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There is a saying:

Writers write.

It's that simple. If you want to be a writer, then just start writing. You're now a writer. You may not be polished or consistent or published yet or whatever, but you're a beginning writer. Feedback and work will improve you. But it's that first step. All you have to think is "I'm a writer." and keep writing.

Same thing for anything else you think is boxing you in.

If you want to be a programmer, then get a python or whatever book and start writing code. You're now a beginning programmer. You might not have business experience but you've started and you can go from there. We all did. I was a paid programmer long before I got my computer science degree. I was self taught. I just worked through books writing code all the time and it all made sense and I got gigs and helped people with code.

Your parents hate what you want to do or want to sabotage you or don't like your politics or whatever? Who cares. You just do your thing and now to some degree you own it. It's just a matter of improving. Improve it quickly if it's important to your success.

Any other mental masturbation comes down to what MJ termed action faking. You need to analyze something to make sure you can get out of your box? Screw that.

If you want to grow, then do the work and quit thinking about it. A lot of us forget as we get older that when we were young, we had to learn and do things quickly enough that we could turn around homework daily and take tests with no excuses. If you just jumped through the hoops, you were fine. It just took activity. As adults, we let ourselves off too easily.

With respect to it being preservation, maybe. Or maybe it's just mental masturbation and a lack of willingness to jump into the deep end and make it work.
 

Mainstream7

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"The only way I can make it is through leveraging code and software."
"I can't make it as a 'life' coach."

To this day I wonder if both of these are true. Either way, I would say I'm more committed to code than to content creation. Whether it because of these beliefs, I don't know.
My natural interests are in philosophy/spirituality/life meaning.
I'm thinking that somehow I could combine this with code in some way in the future.
 
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missinfinity98

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I agree and relate with this thread. I had to force myself out of a box just to post this: "I am a lurker. People don't care about what I think". This is actually a subject I think about a lot.



I think I disagree here, though. Instead, I believe that the boxes serves one crucial function: Survival of the current self (safety).

Also, after reading the post, I'm left thinking: "Ok, let's say I'm in a box. What do I do about it??"

I think there's a trap here. The trap of taking what I call the "bullshit" approach.

For example:
I am shy. => (bullshit) => I am NOT shy!
I am not an entrepreneur. => (bullshit) => I am an entrepreneur!
I'm not a good people person. => (bullshit) => I'm a good person!

Even if you repeat it over and over again... I feel like deep down if you know it's not true, it probably won't change anything. I think you can definitely bullshit yourself, but you can't really lie to yourself.

I also think that there's a pitfall at the other end too. The positive boxes are also traps.

For example:
Let's say I believe "I am an entrepreneur," then I might not take a job that would be key to my growth. Or if I think "I am smart," then I might not admit my mistakes or avoid doing anything complicated (so I won't undermine my belief).

IMO, the real move is to transcend the dichotomy and go to the next level (going meta). You don't deny the problem. You re-contextualize the problem as not being part of your identity.

It makes me think about Dr. Robert Kegan "constructive developmental framework." According to him, becoming a high-functioning adult is a multi-staged process. Most people (65% of the general population) never get past stage 3 out of 5 stages.


source

The ideas in this thread are around stage 4 (top 36%). In stage 4, you gain something called "Self-authorship," where you can define and reshape your beliefs. This is the stage where self-help becomes important.

The key to moving up stages isn't learning new things (put more stuff in the box); it's changing the way we know things (changing the actual box). That's what Kegan calls the subject-object shift.

The subject-object shift happens when we move something we believe from Subject to Object.

Subject ("I AM") — Self-concepts we are attached to and thus cannot reflect on or take an objective look at. They include personality traits, assumptions about how the world works, behaviors, emotions, etc.​
Object ("I HAVE") — Self-concepts that we can detach ourselves from. That we can look at, reflect upon, engage, control and connect to something else.​

For example:
I'm not a person who reads books. => (shift) => I haven't made reading books an habit.
I'm not a good writer. => (shift) => I have no experience writing forum post.
I'm not a good leader. => (shift) => I have bad memories of trying to lead a group.

The shift is powerful IMO, because we have natural self-preservation tendencies (survival), and those same tendencies extend to our conceptions of ourselves. So the moment something stops being part of the Subject, it becomes a lot easier to change.

The way I see it, the boxes (Subject) filter how we see the world. It's like semi-transparent. Let's say you are in a pink box, then everything you see through the box in the world is also pink. You might be so used to being in the pink box that you don't even notice you are in the pink box. It might be painfully obvious for everybody around you that you are in a pink box, but for you, the box IS you, it's just "life." That's why the entire process is mostly transparent. It takes a lot of awareness to see the boxes because we spend most of our lives seeing through them. Also, as long as you think that the box is "true" and part of you, you won't question it or attempt to change it. You won't look for counter-evidences. You might even fight really hard if someone else tries to undermine your box because your box is part of your survival.

A good blog post about Kegan theory here.
yes, I feel so glad you touched on it. There is a practice for when healing any sort of trauma and trapped emotions from the body - to literally express thanks to for example guilt, for trying to keep us safe. Because this is what this mechanism does. And it is neutral, neither good nor bad. It depends how we deal with it
 

missinfinity98

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Oct 25, 2021
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I was talking to my youngest today about how I literally moved 3000 miles away in order to escape boxes that other people had me trapped in: shy, weird, only book-smart, ungainly...

When I moved, no one here had any idea of who I was, they took whatever I said and presented at face value. Utterly life-changing. And it gave me the opportunity to work on the prison I built in my own mind: old-fashioned, strict, uncreative, boring...

One of the books that really helped me (missinfity98, you'll appreciate this) was a tongue-in-cheek book called "Getting In Touch With Your Inner Bitch", on how to use the phrase 'I don't think so' to get away from enforced Toxic Niceness. (I'm nice. I just have firm boundaries.)

I'm currently working on the box of 'I can do it myself'; that one has never served me well.
You were right, this book was what I needed. There is so much power in the simple statement "I don't think so"
 

Andreas Thiel

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A lot of us forget as we get older that when we were young, we had to learn and do things quickly enough that we could turn around homework daily and take tests with no excuses. If you just jumped through the hoops, you were fine. It just took activity. As adults, we let ourselves off too easily.
That is not how I remember it. I remember that I felt that no matter how hard I practised for tests, I could barely control the outcome. The subject was either something I was okay at (English, Math, ...) or really bad (History, French, ...) and then within the predetermined range that I always landed in it came down to if the test itself was particularly difficult or easy.

Today life has little friction when I just jump through hoops, but then I end up exactly where I don't want to get.
I don't see any evidence that deeply rooted beliefs and affirmations change my trajectory. Things just seem to happen as if a movie played itself out.
It took a lot of mental energy and discipline to get into the job and environment that I am currently in, but it still feels like I just ended up more limited in my options and with not enough resources to ever venture out with a side project that could become a business.

I feel like most of this talk about your beliefs just sounds correct but actual numbers won't back any of it up ...
or at least there might be another important mechanism that we don't think about that determines how much your beliefs affect the outcome.

My experience with coding:
what's the big deal ... coding comes as easy as breathing to me. But using code to create value? Impossible!
I went to an academy that was all about coding ... and 90% of the people there realised that the only option they have is to get into product management - because they will never be able to code. So I have a hard time accepting that just learning to code by doing what is obvious is a real option for most people.
 
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Jerma

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That is not how I remember it. I remember that I felt that no matter how hard I practised for tests, I could barely control the outcome. The subject was either something I was okay at (English, Math, ...) or really bad (History, French, ...) and then within the predetermined range that I always landed in it came down to if the test itself was particularly difficult or easy.
That's like the definition of a fixed mindset. If you are looking for the thing that's holding you back.. That's probably it.

I feel like most of this talk about your beliefs just sounds correct but actual numbers won't back any of it up ...
or at least there might be another important mechanism that we don't think about that determines how much your beliefs affect the outcome.
Sure, there's more than beliefs. There are also your natural abilities and genetics. The thing about those is that it's boring to talk about them because you can't change them. But, at the same time, they don't define you either. Also, the impact of beliefs is so disproportional that it's where the money is at anyway.

I don't see any evidence that deeply rooted beliefs and affirmations change my trajectory. Things just seem to happen as if a movie played itself out.
If you don't see any evidence, it either means there isn't any or that you aren't looking for it. You are constantly filtering your experiences through your beliefs, and you might just not realize it. It's not always in the form of a sentence like "I am bad at driving"; most of the time, it's not verbal. Like for example, you step into a classroom. Automatically, you assume the "student" identity, sit down, don't talk, and take notes. You are automatically behaving in the way you believe a student should act. You could act in a million different ways instead, but you don't. You probably do that for every other role you have in life: employee, customer, programmer, son, parent, etc. The important concept to realize is that you are doing all that unconsciously. In that sense, it really is like watching a movie unfold. Of course, it's possible to take a more active role and reprogram yourself, but most people are just running the programming already there.
 

Andreas Thiel

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That's like the definition of a fixed mindset. If you are looking for the thing that's holding you back.. That's probably it.

...
People sound so smart when they say something like that ... because other smart people say it. Must be true then.
Nah, I was a stupid little fella who believed everything the grown ups told me. I did study like crazy and it just never made a difference.

If you don't see any evidence, it either means there isn't any or that you aren't looking for it. You are constantly filtering your experiences through your beliefs, and you might just not realize it. It's not always in the form of a sentence like "I am bad at driving"; most of the time, it's not verbal. Like for example, you step into a classroom. Automatically, you assume the "student" identity, sit down, don't talk, and take notes. You are automatically behaving in the way you believe a student should act. You could act in a million different ways instead, but you don't. You probably do that for every other role you have in life: employee, customer, programmer, son, parent, etc. The important concept to realize is that you are doing all that unconsciously. In that sense, it really is like watching a movie unfold. Of course, it's possible to take a more active role and reprogram yourself, but most people are just running the programming already there.
A person that was as obsessed as I used to be with self-help and personal growth resources IS constantly looking for it.
I have an inner score card that is perfectly intact and I redesigned my beliefs ... but the part where those beliefs change your behaviour and your results is just plain wrong. I have never seen any evidence of that.

One example is the part in the books where MJ DeMarco hinself writes that he doesn't want to know where he'd be now if he never moved to a more friendly / sunny climate. I believe such key decisions make up 99% of your results and beliefs ... don't worry about that bs.
 
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Jerma

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I never try to change people's minds on the internet, but I'll give it one more try in the spirit of trying new things. This is my take on how beliefs works. Take it or leave it.

but the part where those beliefs change your behaviour and your results is just plain wrong. I have never seen any evidence of that.

One example is the part in the books where MJ DeMarco hinself writes that he doesn't want to know where he'd be now if he never moved to a more friendly / sunny climate. I believe such key decisions make up 99% of your results and beliefs ... don't worry about that bs.

Ok, if I understand correctly, your point of view is that MJ took this big action and moved to Phoenix, and that's why he got results, and it had nothing to do with him changing his beliefs? But, where did this action come from, in your opinion? He just got this random impulse to do it?

This is the way I see it... Actually, I have an experiment for you. First, place your phone in an empty space on the desk in front of you. Now slide your phone forward by pushing it with your finger. Now, really take the time to think and answer this question : Why did the phone move?

The typical answer is that the phone moved because you pushed it (because I told you to push it). You applied a force to it, which was greater than the friction, etc. That's actually just half of it. It also moved because it had an empty space to move into.

So there are two ingredients, the force (the cause) and the space (the constraint).

If I try to push the phone with the same force, but there's a wall or something in the way, it won't move. If I don't push the phone, it also won't move no matter the space around it.

We can further break down constraints into two types. There's enabling constraints, like the space around the phone and limiting constraints, like the table under the phone (I can't push the phone downward). Those two types of constraints put together are what we call "potentiality." Then you can act within the bounds of the "potentiality" and create "actuality." In turn, this new "actuality" has a new "potentiality" for future actions.

Beliefs are exactly that, but in the mind. They are constraints. You have enabling beliefs and limiting beliefs. They don't dictate your actions, but they change what's possible or not possible for you. If you really think about it, the amount of freedom you actually have at every moment is actually completely insane. I could get up right now, walk out the door and drive to another country and never look back. I could pick up the phone and donate all my money to UNICEF.. but I don't. Why? Because of my beliefs.

The brain is constantly generating "action possibilities" (affordances) at all times by filtering the possible actions in the world through its beliefs.

If I believe that going to the gym is useless, I won't go to the gym. Even if I could easily go to the gym and nothing physically prevents me from going. If I believe "I can make it as an entrepreneur," I can easily quit my job. If I believe that I can't change my beliefs or changing my beliefs is useless... then I'm f*cked, because I'm trapped in my current set of beliefs, and the only thing that can "shake me out" is external things forcing me to change them. That's called having an external locus of control and there's good science saying that it isn't great.

"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't – you're right," - Henry Ford

To go back to MJ, from my understanding from the books (and MJ can correct me if I'm wrong), what allowed him to make the decision to move was his FTE. The FTE didn't change him in any way physically or economically. Before the FTE, he *could* have potentially moved to Phoenix, but he didn't. Moving to Phoenix was clearly a good idea for him, but it wasn't an affordance for him yet. The FTE changed some of his beliefs first. Like, "I can't live like this!". The change of beliefs happened before the action (and it afforded the action). He basically took ownership of his potentiality by doing this, and that's really where the money is. You win the game by executing, but you need to right beliefs, to be able to execute on the right things. That's why working on your toxic beliefs is essential.

TLDR: Obligatory David Goggins
View: https://youtu.be/r2QdE1wjPLE?t=264
 
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socaldude

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Your self-image is an obstacle to growth and self-knowledge. It’s an image. It’s 2D. The real you is 3D and self contained. It comes from outside you. It’s a program. “It filters” what is appropriate to you and what’s not. It’s like hearsay knowledge.
 

Andreas Thiel

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I never try to change people's minds on the internet, but I'll give it one more try in the spirit of trying new things. This is my take on how beliefs works. Take it or leave it.
I appreciate it.
Ok, if I understand correctly, your point of view is that MJ took this big action and moved to Phoenix, and that's why he got results, and it had nothing to do with him changing his beliefs? But, where did this action come from, in your opinion? He just got this random impulse to do it?
He was already in a place where he had tried many different jobs and did a lot of experimentation.
He was already in a place where his issue was something other than being stuck in a rut.
Probably the beliefs advice is awesome for 1 out of 1000 people who already have acquired some kind of freedom that we don't think and write about. And that part that we don't talk about makes beliefs a bad time investment for 999 out of
1000 people.
This is the way I see it... Actually, I have an experiment for you. First, place your phone in an empty space on the desk in front of you. Now slide your phone forward by pushing it with your finger. Now, really take the time to think and answer this question : Why did the phone move?

The typical answer is that the phone moved because you pushed it (because I told you to push it). You applied a force to it, which was greater than the friction, etc. That's actually just half of it. It also moved because it had an empty space to move into.

So there are two ingredients, the force (the cause) and the space (the constraint).

If I try to push the phone with the same force, but there's a wall or something in the way, it won't move. If I don't push the phone, it also won't move no matter the space around it.
So there are two ingredients, the force (the cause) and the space (the constraint).

If I try to push the phone with the same force, but there's a wall or something in the way, it won't move. If I don't push the phone, it also won't move no matter the space around it.

We can further break down constraints into two types. There's enabling constraints, like the space around the phone and limiting constraints, like the table under the phone (I can't push the phone downward). Those two types of constraints put together are what we call "potentiality." Then you can act within the bounds of the "potentiality" and create "actuality." In turn, this new "actuality" has a new "potentiality" for future actions.
Yeah, great additions to our mental model ... we can work with that ...

Beliefs are exactly that, but in the mind. They are constraints. You have enabling beliefs and limiting beliefs. They don't dictate your actions, but they change what's possible or not possible for you. If you really think about it, the amount of freedom you actually have at every moment is actually completely insane. I could get up right now, walk out the door and drive to another country and never look back. I could pick up the phone and donate all my money to UNICEF.. but I don't. Why? Because of my beliefs.

The brain is constantly generating "action possibilities" (affordances) at all times by filtering the possible actions in the world through its beliefs.
Sure. But the current discussion is all about the enabling beliefs and I can't wait for exhibit one that proves that they have any semblence of value at all. They create hope and enthusiasm for a brief moment, then reality bombs them to nirvana.
The real constraints are real and the freedom only exists in theory ... in almost any attempted escape from my job I would end up on the streets because it is not easy to afford a $750 apartment without a job. And that alone leaves pretty much zero room to maneuver.

If I believe that going to the gym is useless, I won't go to the gym. Even if I could easily go to the gym and nothing physically prevents me from going. If I believe "I can make it as an entrepreneur," I can easily quit my job. If I believe that I can't change my beliefs or changing my beliefs is useless... then I'm f*cked, because I'm trapped in my current set of beliefs, and the only thing that can "shake me out" is external things forcing me to change them. That's called having an external locus of control and there's good science saying that it isn't great.
That is where I disagree. Once I got into self-help and personal growth I am sure I got the part about beliefs right. But they change nothing. I got into pickup and truly believed, that all I have to do is getting those 10000 bad approaches out of the way before I succeed. Then I realized that I can visit the next big city every 3 months or something like that and that my brain completely shuts down and goes blank when I actually do an approach.

Getting into art? Here I go, I know all the theory. After drawing and drawing I have to realize: I will get better at copying reference, but all the time invested in sketching from memory and constructing scenes ... no progress at all.
Applying rapid skill acquisition theory to Brawlhalla? I have spent 1600h in game and am at the level that I was about after 50h. There is no angle for reasonable deliberate practice.

Programming? I am the most entitled old white man with roughly 15 years of industry experience ... but the reality of getting a side project going while I have a day job are permissive. I just pass out after a work day. Finding a project that is simple enough but also creates value ... I have tried to come up with something for the last 5 years. The air is thin in that sweet spot.

The physical constraints you wrote about ... I believe in their relevance. Circle jerks of: just believe in yourself ... I don't get why there isn't a movement that calls bullshit.
Going to the gym? Yeah, I had a brief phase where I managed to get out of bed early enough to have a morning routine with a home workout, eat breakfast and eat after work. Day job plus a routine like that ... there is no room for anything else.
Telling myself I am great at writing in such an existence ... where is the value in that?

To go back to MJ, from my understanding from the books (and MJ can correct me if I'm wrong), what allowed him to make the decision to move was his FTE. The FTE didn't change him in any way physically or economically. Before the FTE, he *could* have potentially moved to Phoenix, but he didn't. Moving to Phoenix was clearly a good idea for him, but it wasn't an affordance for him yet. The FTE changed some of his beliefs first. Like, "I can't live like this!". The change of beliefs happened before the action (and it afforded the action). He basically took ownership of his potentiality by doing this, and that's really where the money is. You win the game by executing, but you need to right beliefs, to be able to execute on the right things. That's why working on your toxic beliefs is essential.
Yes, I think the FTE is a great concept ... IF you have those (... one, two, a dozen?) prerequisites in place that are needed for it to actually change something. But then again it doesn't change your beliefs or establish new ones ... it strengthens your resolve. "I can't live like this" was already established. He was looking for ways to get rich at the time.

Won't watch. There are a billion of videos like that and it always sounds great ... but there is zero value. Change your reality, don't even worry about beliefs.

Saying: change your beliefs because they determine your actions ... that is the "draw the rest of the f*cking owl" kind of oversimplification that leaves the advice with zero utility.
 
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Jerma

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Oh, I see. You are quite deep into this kind of thinking. Last try.
Saying: change your beliefs because they determine your actions ... that is the "draw the rest of the f*cking owl" kind of oversimplification that leaves the advice with zero utility.

Your first objection was that changing beliefs don't lead to changing behaviors. So now you are saying that I'm not explaining how to change beliefs. I 100% agree that I didn't explain it and that changing beliefs is challenging. Notice what you are doing, though? You are moving the goalpost! That's very convenient. Moving the goalpost is a great way never to make any progress in life.

Why doesn't it have utility? Having a good framework is useful no?

If you look at MJ FTE... In his case, one key ingredient to change beliefs is to have some powerful negative emotion that leads to some kind of insight. So strong emotions are probably worth investigating. Not just stuff you read in a book. It needs to be more powerful than that. It's the difference between knowing something and believing something. He knew those things before the FTE, but he didn't truly believed it until the FTE? I don't have all the answers, but I'm working at it.. because I believe I can get to the point where I will understand.

Your post is just.. so full of limiting beliefs. It's shocking to me. I'm not making a value judgement here. I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm saying REALIZE that you are full of limiting beliefs. Reread your post and look at all the limits you place on yourself.

The real constraints are real and the freedom only exists in theory ... in almost any attempted escape from my job I would end up on the streets because it is not easy to afford a $750 apartment without a job. And that alone leaves pretty much zero room to maneuver.

You realize that this isn't necessarily true in reality? But it is totally true for YOU.
Many people on this forum would tell you that you are wrong. But being told you are wrong probably won't change your beliefs.
Realize that your beliefs are constructing your reality.
Realize that if you don't control your beliefs, your beliefs control you.
Do whatever you want with that.
 

Andreas Thiel

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Oh, I see. You are quite deep into this kind of thinking. Last try.

Your first objection was that changing beliefs don't lead to changing behaviors. So now you are saying that I'm not explaining how to change beliefs. I 100% agree that I didn't explain it and that changing beliefs is challenging. Notice what you are doing, though? You are moving the goalpost! That's very convenient. Moving the goalpost is a great way never to make any progress in life.
Not quite ... I am saying I really worked on that growth mindset and got the inner scorecard mentality deeply internatized ... and nothing changed.

For the most part I saw the thread as reasonable because there were no crazy claims, just that it is healthy to go from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset, which I agree with.

Then the claims that I knew from not being able to find an angle to strike out even once are completely overblown.
One example from your post:
I'm not a person who reads books. => (shift) => I haven't made reading books an habit.
I'm not a good writer. => (shift) => I have no experience writing forum post.
I'm not a good leader. => (shift) => I have bad memories of trying to lead a group.
Such mindset shifts change nothing in my experience.

Why doesn't it have utility? Having a good framework is useful no?
I have read many books and I have believed in many frameworks but the most important part in each of them seems to be the lucky break. And just wishful thinking is a really horrible framework - if anything, hope that things will improve as my mindset improves kept me from taking more drastic steps - and watching decades go by living a miserable existence is no fun. All the success stories here ... those people already have a history of striking out and I believe that is the important part. So how is it moving the goalpost when I tell people that changing your belief to "coding is actually easy" is not how this whole growth mentality thing works?

If you look at MJ FTE... In his case, one key ingredient to change beliefs is to have some powerful negative emotion that leads to some kind of insight. So strong emotions are probably worth investigating. Not just stuff you read in a book. It needs to be more powerful than that. It's the difference between knowing something and believing something. He knew those things before the FTE, but he didn't truly believed it until the FTE? I don't have all the answers, but I'm working at it.. because I believe I can get to the point where I will understand.
When people say they are not an artist ... then it is based on some observation in most cases. At some point they need some experience that reaffirms the new belief. Most of what you call limiting beliefs now are backed up by thousands of experiences. After trying to build some foundation for even a few social interactions I can't just tell myself that it is actually really easy. After working 8h every day and seeing what kind of products a team of 5 or 13 developers can develop over the course of a year ... I know that telling yourself that you just need get started with coding will put you on a path of misery and crazy challenges.
Why is an FTE even needed when your actions change automatically. That claim is where I am calling bs. Not that going to a growth mindset is helpful, generally speaking.

Your post is just.. so full of limiting beliefs. It's shocking to me. I'm not making a value judgement here. I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm saying REALIZE that you are full of limiting beliefs. Reread your post and look at all the limits you place on yourself.
Yeah, you can't know the experiences I have made ... which is really important before you judge how shockingly pathetic those limiting beliefs are. I had a pristine growth mindset and an inner scorecard probably since I tried getting into pickup which means we are looking at 2 decades ... and I thought people with a fixed mindset are morons ... but when I look at what how they talk about the world and my crazy hopes, then they were more right that I can ever be.

I could probably reserve around 30k to strike out ... each year I can add around 15k and there is no way 30k would keep me afloat for more than one year and to make money with software I need a team of 3-5 expensive developers and at least 3 years. I'd have a really bad conscience taking a cheaper appartment away from a student. Those appartments pretty much don't exist. I'd have to look into getting into a shared apartment and I know I could not produce anything in such an environment.

You realize that this isn't necessarily true in reality? But it is totally true for YOU.
Many people on this forum would tell you that you are wrong. But being told you are wrong probably won't change your beliefs.
Realize that your beliefs are constructing your reality.
Realize that if you don't control your beliefs, your beliefs control you.
Do whatever you want with that.
I have seen people in the workplace there were back after striking out because it has not worked out. None of them were happy. I don't care what people tell me when I can tell there are circle jerk mechanics at play.

What I would be interested in is anecdotal stories of what mindset changes have done for people on this forum and a rough outline of how it played out.
 
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Jerma

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Yeah, you can't know the experiences I have made ... which is really important before you judge how shockingly pathetic those limiting beliefs are. I had a pristine growth mindset and an inner scorecard probably since I tried getting into pickup which means we are looking at 2 decades ... and I thought people with a fixed mindset are morons ... but when I look at what how they talk about the world and my crazy hopes, then they were more right that I can ever be.
You made a few great points there, you convinced me. My bad man, you are right. I couldn't possibly understand your situation and perspective because I don't know your entire history. Your situation is truly unique and multi-variable, and it doesn't have an easy solution (or else you would have done it). If only people stopped saying so much shit online about mindset because it just doesn't work ! :mad:

More seriously, I'm done trying to convince you. Good luck!
 
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This thread has turned into a powerful example how we put ourselves into a terrible box and NOBODY will convince us otherwise.

@Kung Fu Steve to the rescue?
 

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Not so sure about the utility of this thinking exercise.

Gonna summarize the the big one as:


Seems like the boxes I see are rock solid and all the poking, prodding, and questioning I have done has only reaffirmed the fear that I can't do anything about ... anything.

Thanks for making this thread much more interesting.

I’ll summarize your position as this - we are born with fixed or growth mindset. It’s a draw of luck. And you are forever stuck with it. And if you are the unlucky duck who got fixed mindset, you will view every obstacle as an immovable object.

And once you believe that to your core, confirmation bias takes care of the rest. Did I get it right?
 

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Thanks for making this thread much more interesting.

I’ll summarize your position as this - we are born with fixed or growth mindset. It’s a draw of luck. And you are forever stuck with it. And if you are the unlucky duck who got fixed mindset, you will view every obstacle as an immovable object.

And once you believe that to your core, confirmation bias takes care of the rest. Did I get it right?
Jesus ... no.

I wrote I agree with the books, with the original post and with most of the follow up replies ... up to the point where the guru "The Secret" - "you just need to fix your mindset and everything will magically fall into place" posts begin.

My point is not that you can't fix a growth mindset ... but that the magic doesn't happen automatically then. The next part of the battle begins and anybody who says fixing your mindset is the hard part is full of shit. Maintaining the mindset and getting through the desert of desertion are the hard part.
 
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Won't watch.

Kinda funny ... this is exactly what this posts alludes... you are defending your box.

you just need to fix your mindset and everything will magically fall into place" posts begin.

Not sure who said that.

This thread is about putting the horse in front of the cart ... an absolute necessity that most people won't do, and hence, most people are absolutely destined for failure.

I'll use the same analogy I used here...


If you're obese and have 200 lbs to lose, it is a waste of time trying to help someone who thinks their diet has nothing to do with their obesity. They eat 6 donuts for breakfast, 8 cans of soda for lunch and 4 pizzas for dinner. They want to be fit and trim, but refuse to change their diet. IT IS THEIR BOX. And as such, it is impossible for them to accomplish their goal... their box stands in their way.

That said, if they tear down that box and replace with "Gee, I really need to watch what I eat and stop eating all this junk food" then suddenly that have a chance. AND THEN THE HARD WORK BEGINS.

Losing 200 lbs is not easy.
...But with a fixed-mindset and the BOX of "the problem isn't my diet" will result in failure.
...It is a waste of time trying to mentor someone with a mindset like this.
...The BOX prevents them from enduring the tough process, which gives success a chance.
...The BOX keeps you on the sidelines with zero chance of success.

Starting a business is not easy.
...But with a fixed-mindset and the BOX of "oh its all luck" or BOX X, Y, or Z will result in failure.
...It is a waste of time trying to mentor someone with a mindset like this.
...The BOX prevents them from enduring the tough process, which gives success a chance.
...The BOX keeps you on the sidelines with zero chance of success.

Nothing about this post is to be translated, "fix your mindset and everything will magically work!!!" Tearing down boxes turns a goal that had ZERO-PROBABILITY for success into a goal that has A probability. But the struggle remains...

Ultimately, fixing your boxes gets you on the damn playing field so the real work can begin.
 

Kung Fu Steve

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This thread has turned into a powerful example how we put ourselves into a terrible box and NOBODY will convince us otherwise.

@Kung Fu Steve to the rescue?

Haha. Never to the rescue. I tried playing captain "save-a-ho" in my early dating days.

1.) That old statement "you can show people the door but you can't make them walk through it" -- it's bullshit. I've learned exactly how to kick people through the door whether they want to or not... but rarely does it last more than a couple of months or years. Eventually, they go back to their old behaviors because it meets their needs.

2.) There's no stronger force in the human psyche than our need to behave consistently with our identity.

3.) There are really only 2 things that shape our lives: beliefs and values. I read through every post here and it's just everyone's beliefs about how things should be, how things are, or how you should see things the way *I* see them. You can't help someone if you're judging them... and on a more "advanced" level, it's apparent to see what our friends here would do anything to gain in their life and would do anything to AVOID in life (the latter being much more powerful).

4.) Nobody here is broken, nobody needs fixing. But if you're unhappy with your results in your life today, it's a set of conditioned patterns of beliefs and values that have put you there. If you ARE happy, there is zero reasons to change. You have the perfect strategies for what you have in your life. If you don't want more, stick with what you're doing... But the current level of thinking that got us to where we are is not the level of thinking that will get us to where we want to be... or else we'd already be there.

5.) Boundaries are barriers. The thing you use to protect yourself also keeps everyone out.
 

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Kinda funny ... this is exactly what this posts alludes... you are defending your box.
I don't see any evidence of that. What is my box, then? Something like a false awakening and I never really had that growth mindset? I'd argue taking the leap many times and constantly landing on your a$$ is a different situation than sticking to a fixed mindset which is discussed here.
Attacking a box for 2 decades without any progress ... I don't see that covered here.

Not sure who said that.
I might be overreacting because this "just change your mind and everything will fall into place" is really pervasive and really getting to me every single time, but I quoted the start of the first painful occurence (could have quoted more):

I'm not a person who reads books. => (shift) => I haven't made reading books an habit.
I'm not a good writer. => (shift) => I have no experience writing forum post.
I'm not a good leader. => (shift) => I have bad memories of trying to lead a group.

The shift is powerful IMO, because we have natural self-preservation tendencies (survival), and those same tendencies extend to our conceptions of ourselves. So the moment something stops being part of the Subject, it becomes a lot easier to change.
What I see is the most dangerous poison pen of all. The opposite of a FTE because it kills any sense of urgency. After all you are enlightened now. Shit has to be easy from here on out, right?

Next example:
Writers write.

It's that simple. If you want to be a writer, then just start writing. You're now a writer. You may not be polished or consistent or published yet or whatever, but you're a beginning writer. Feedback and work will improve you. But it's that first step. All you have to think is "I'm a writer." and keep writing.
That post gets better with a "do the work" section. But nothing about any of this is simple. Making that shift on a subconscious level is tricky. Just telling yourself that you are a writer now is not the powerful part.

Totally agree with your original post and most of the replies here, but given the Youtube guru self-help backdrop I feel like what many people will make of it is counterproductive to taking action and will lead to many burst bubbles down the road.
 
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@Kung Fu Steve Thank you for the wise words. It's what I needed to hear. I would love if you could elaborate on point 3 because I'm not sure I'm quite there with my understanding yet (maybe not in this thread).

This thread is about putting the horse in front of the cart ... an absolute necessity that most people won't do, and hence, most people are absolutely destined for failure.
Yes, that's exactly it. That's what I was also trying to say.

Your books have been instrumental for my own mindset. My business is enjoying six figures profit this year for the first time, and it's in part thanks to you. I'm very grateful for that.

At the same time, I'm nowhere near where I want to be. I know for a fact that I'm hitting against my limiting beliefs every single day.. I have so much work left to do. I think about that a lot.

I really appreciate this space you have created online, and I hope I can contribute to it in a meaningful manner and learn more from you guys in the future. Thanks!
 

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Writers write.

It's that simple. If you want to be a writer, then just start writing. You're now a writer. You may not be polished or consistent or published yet or whatever, but you're a beginning writer. Feedback and work will improve you. But it's that first step. All you have to think is "I'm a writer." and keep writing.
That post gets better with a "do the work" section. But nothing about any of this is simple. Making that shift on a subconscious level is tricky. Just telling yourself that you are a writer now is not the powerful part.

Totally agree with your original post and most of the replies here, but given the Youtube guru self-help backdrop I feel like what many people will make of it is counterproductive to taking action and will lead to many burst bubbles down the road.

I didn't expect to be taken this far out of context. This is not guru babble. This is reality. Go do something and then get better at it. That's at the heart of just about anything you do.

Please do not take this as a critical, abusive, dick response. I am trying to address the things you've said in your response to me and some others.

What was initially mentioned by MJ is the idea that people find themselves in boxes of their own construction.

You can't read a book. You can't write a blog post, etc.

Changing at that level is simple. Go do it. Mastery will take longer.

Write your first post, your first article, whatever. Eat your first bite of a vegetable. Lift your first weight. Whatever in your life you think you can't possibly do, you probably can. Take a baby step and go on.

But if someone says, I can't read or I can't write. BS. They aren't doing the work. I have a relative who won't get a GED or read unless it's just stuff on the internet. It's his decision. He's lazy. He gave up on life very early.

I just said you have to make the decision to do something and then go do it and over time with work and feedback, you should get better at it. Maybe you really can't master that thing, but who cares? Good enough is often what you need. You don't need to be Rembrandt for most things. But you aren't being stopped from doing most things. Just go do something. Or switch directions to something you want to do or quit.

But if you're here saying there is no way it will be fixed because you have all kinds of barriers that you have a real psychological issue or something you won't address, you're right. Nothing will change. I agree with @Kung Fu Steve .

That isn't judgement and it isn't guru anything. It's the truth. You won't change unless you're willing to find a way to change your approach.

You said you learned math. I would suppose that you probably worked thousands of math problems and it wasn't just something you did from osmosis just from making the decision. You had to make the decision daily to go get your work done. You had to do the work. Each bit of work built on the last. And hard problems got easier. You had to meet someone's expectation of a crap ton of math problems over many years and you did it. Your teacher gave you instruction, gave you a list of problems to do and a deadline. You had the responsibility of getting them done or facing the consequences. That list of cumulative experience lead to some level of mastery.

Same with programming. You did the work even if you said it was easy. You still had to do the work and I bet you still find some things you don't know in programming. That's nothing different from what I said. You made a decision to do it and you did it. Your decision may have been spurred by an outside stimulus, a teacher, but you had to make the decision to show up and do the work.

Just like in math or programming, you have to be able to do the same thing for yourself in other areas without someone driving you. That's the nature of owning a business if that's what you're going for.

Let's explore programming.

Regarding people not begin able to create value by coding: If you've worked as a programmer, you've probably provided value for an employer or you would be out of a job. That's how it works. You provide value to a business owner who needs to have something tracked or computed so he doesn't have as much labor cost, or as many mistakes, or so he can produce things that were previously impossible. Whatever. You can do that as an employee or you can build it as a software vendor or consultant.

Can you find some software that could be better and make your own? Or find something that could be simpler? Could you build the next math or ML system or do consulting in them? Why do other software companies exist when we have Adobe and it covers everything? Because Adobe stuff is complicated. Some people need easy.

If you can't think of some other way to provide value with it, maybe you could take Fox's course. Or go find an entrepreneur friend and find out what kind of software could be used in his business that might not exist. Create a partnership if you have to. But there are domains that people are writing code in. If you're good at it, in the US, you can pull a lot of money. Some get a half a million a year. Programming can be fastlane. It depends on how you think of it. Fastlane is a mindset. You could sell your programming services online.

If you still can't produce value as a programmer, then you probably still know enough to get value from other programmers to produce something for someone else because you know the basics. You could hire people to program for you. You could hire a team to program for someone else and provide value in the consulting market. You could hire someone to make web pages for you to sell or to use. You could hire people to do whatever. All of that can be done with that knowledge.

One of my friends who isn't a programmer has a ML product for the drug research industry. He will make 10's of millions from it. BTW, he also doesn't know squat about medicine or science. He hires the guys who can do the work.

Maybe you can't think of things to add value to because you haven't been involved in any other domains. What domain knowledge do you have? Could you write libraries for your current industry and sell them? Could you learn about different industries?

Billions were made in machine learning over the last decade.

Billions were made in health programming in the last decade.

Billions will be made in web 3 over the next decade. You could be there early and take advantage of it. I have a friend that vacations all over the world based on his crypto and web 3 consulting to large companies.

I didn't say anything about easy. But you seem to be digging in hard that there can't be any value in programming.

Maybe you really just don't want to. In that regard I agree with you, no amount of positive thinking non-sense will change your position.


Yeah, you can't know the experiences I have made ... which is really important before you judge how shockingly pathetic those limiting beliefs are. I had a pristine growth mindset and an inner scorecard probably since I tried getting into pickup which means we are looking at 2 decades ... and I thought people with a fixed mindset are morons ... but when I look at what how they talk about the world and my crazy hopes, then they were more right that I can ever be.

I could probably reserve around 30k to strike out ... each year I can add around 15k and there is no way 30k would keep me afloat for more than one year and to make money with software I need a team of 3-5 expensive developers and at least 3 years. I'd have a really bad conscience taking a cheaper appartment away from a student. Those appartments pretty much don't exist. I'd have to look into getting into a shared apartment and I know I could not produce anything in such an environment.

Growth mindset and your hopes don't mean anything without focused action and self-correction. It's 20 years of your life wasted.

You could be consulting internationally for no out of pocket cost.

My friend's husband travels the world doing SAP consulting and has made millions.

Just change the mental game.
 

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I agree and relate with this thread. I had to force myself out of a box just to post this: "I am a lurker. People don't care about what I think". This is actually a subject I think about a lot.



I think I disagree here, though. Instead, I believe that the boxes serves one crucial function: Survival of the current self (safety).

Also, after reading the post, I'm left thinking: "Ok, let's say I'm in a box. What do I do about it??"

I think there's a trap here. The trap of taking what I call the "bullshit" approach.

For example:
I am shy. => (bullshit) => I am NOT shy!
I am not an entrepreneur. => (bullshit) => I am an entrepreneur!
I'm not a good people person. => (bullshit) => I'm a good person!

Even if you repeat it over and over again... I feel like deep down if you know it's not true, it probably won't change anything. I think you can definitely bullshit yourself, but you can't really lie to yourself.

I also think that there's a pitfall at the other end too. The positive boxes are also traps.

For example:
Let's say I believe "I am an entrepreneur," then I might not take a job that would be key to my growth. Or if I think "I am smart," then I might not admit my mistakes or avoid doing anything complicated (so I won't undermine my belief).

IMO, the real move is to transcend the dichotomy and go to the next level (going meta). You don't deny the problem. You re-contextualize the problem as not being part of your identity.

It makes me think about Dr. Robert Kegan "constructive developmental framework." According to him, becoming a high-functioning adult is a multi-staged process. Most people (65% of the general population) never get past stage 3 out of 5 stages.


source

The ideas in this thread are around stage 4 (top 36%). In stage 4, you gain something called "Self-authorship," where you can define and reshape your beliefs. This is the stage where self-help becomes important.

The key to moving up stages isn't learning new things (put more stuff in the box); it's changing the way we know things (changing the actual box). That's what Kegan calls the subject-object shift.

The subject-object shift happens when we move something we believe from Subject to Object.

Subject ("I AM") — Self-concepts we are attached to and thus cannot reflect on or take an objective look at. They include personality traits, assumptions about how the world works, behaviors, emotions, etc.​
Object ("I HAVE") — Self-concepts that we can detach ourselves from. That we can look at, reflect upon, engage, control and connect to something else.​

For example:
I'm not a person who reads books. => (shift) => I haven't made reading books an habit.
I'm not a good writer. => (shift) => I have no experience writing forum post.
I'm not a good leader. => (shift) => I have bad memories of trying to lead a group.

The shift is powerful IMO, because we have natural self-preservation tendencies (survival), and those same tendencies extend to our conceptions of ourselves. So the moment something stops being part of the Subject, it becomes a lot easier to change.

The way I see it, the boxes (Subject) filter how we see the world. It's like semi-transparent. Let's say you are in a pink box, then everything you see through the box in the world is also pink. You might be so used to being in the pink box that you don't even notice you are in the pink box. It might be painfully obvious for everybody around you that you are in a pink box, but for you, the box IS you, it's just "life." That's why the entire process is mostly transparent. It takes a lot of awareness to see the boxes because we spend most of our lives seeing through them. Also, as long as you think that the box is "true" and part of you, you won't question it or attempt to change it. You won't look for counter-evidences. You might even fight really hard if someone else tries to undermine your box because your box is part of your survival.

A good blog post about Kegan theory here.
I liked the points you made and the though processing
 
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Miltonaire

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I pulled this out of an old thread dozens of pages long and I thought it worth a thread.

As I mentioned many times, I'm an introvert. As such, I don't enjoy being at the center of attention. I don't like public speaking. I hate going on podcasts. I hate doing YouTube videos. I hate interviews. I prefer written word over spoken.

That said, these personality traits have the potentially disastrous effect of putting myself into a self-imposed BOX. The BOX then serves as a hindrance, an excuse not to test your comfort zones and conquer fears. The box stops me from doing what needs to be done. The box stops me from improving, growing, and minimizing a fear.

But I don't let the BOX define me. I do podcasts because my purpose is greater than my fear. My purpose acts like a sharp knife capable of tearing down the BOX.

Fixed mindset types live in a prison of BOXES. My personality type is X,Y, or Z so I won't do A, B, or C. Then they get stuck in a rut — never growing, never evolving and always doing the same things over and over, while expecting different results. Boxes serve one purpose— to contain and limit. When you put yourself in a box, you contain and limit your growth. Period.

Here are just some boxes I've personally heard over the last year...

Box: I’m not a person who reads books.
Box: I’m not a public speaker.
Box: I’m not a person who plays board games.
Box: I’m not someone who likes going to the gym.
Box: I’m not X, Y, or Z because of A, B, or C.
Box: I’m not good at X (of course your aren’t, you never tried, and never worked hard at it)
Box: I'm not a good people person.
Box: I'm not a good writer.
Box: I'm not an entrepreneur.
Box: I'm not a good saver.
Box: I'm not a good leader.

And do you want to know the strongest, most powerful BOX of all?

It is one that not made of cardboard or steel, but of velvet...

It is comfort.

If you want to radically change your life NEXT YEAR, start observing the BOXES you've erected around yourself. Then start to poke, prod, and question them. What is that box doing to your life? Is it preserving the king BOX of all of 'em, comfort? Ultimately, BOXES are weak excuses that preserve the primary box, the BOX of COMFORT.

You can evolve into whomever you want with the right effort, self-awareness, discipline, and purpose.

What BOX are you stuck in?

PS: A good book on this topic is Personality Isn't Permanent by B. Hardy.
Best content ever. after reading it I saw some of the excuses i used before
 

Ocean Man

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I guess it’s imposter syndrome or a feeling of like I don’t know enough yet to help or provide value. “I’m not an expert”. I believe there’s actually an old thread titled something like that, haha.
 

MJ DeMarco

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My business is enjoying six figures profit this year for the first time, and it's in part thanks to you. I'm very grateful for that.

Holy sh*t ... a big congrats to you! You have no idea, this excites me probably more than it does you. :blush:
 
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thechosen1

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Haha. Never to the rescue. I tried playing captain "save-a-ho" in my early dating days.

1.) That old statement "you can show people the door but you can't make them walk through it" -- it's bullshit. I've learned exactly how to kick people through the door whether they want to or not... but rarely does it last more than a couple of months or years. Eventually, they go back to their old behaviors because it meets their needs.

2.) There's no stronger force in the human psyche than our need to behave consistently with our identity.

3.) There are really only 2 things that shape our lives: beliefs and values. I read through every post here and it's just everyone's beliefs about how things should be, how things are, or how you should see things the way *I* see them. You can't help someone if you're judging them... and on a more "advanced" level, it's apparent to see what our friends here would do anything to gain in their life and would do anything to AVOID in life (the latter being much more powerful).

4.) Nobody here is broken, nobody needs fixing. But if you're unhappy with your results in your life today, it's a set of conditioned patterns of beliefs and values that have put you there. If you ARE happy, there is zero reasons to change. You have the perfect strategies for what you have in your life. If you don't want more, stick with what you're doing... But the current level of thinking that got us to where we are is not the level of thinking that will get us to where we want to be... or else we'd already be there.

5.) Boundaries are barriers. The thing you use to protect yourself also keeps everyone out.
Inject this into my veins! Haha, just a joke. But wow that was amazing and it resonated well.

First step is desire, and I have the strong desire to develop exactly the type of thinking you described - the desire to change my own thinking. Thank you for illuminating this Steve!
 

Kung Fu Steve

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@Kung Fu Steve Thank you for the wise words. It's what I needed to hear. I would love if you could elaborate on point 3 because I'm not sure I'm quite there with my understanding yet (maybe not in this thread).

3.) There are really only 2 things that shape our lives: beliefs and values. I read through every post here and it's just everyone's beliefs about how things should be, how things are, or how you should see things the way *I* see them. You can't help someone if you're judging them... and on a more "advanced" level, it's apparent to see what our friends

Wise, I'm not so sure. :rofl:

But here's what I know: there really are only 9 areas of your life you can change. If you change 1 of those areas, you're on a radically different path. If you change all 9 -- you've got a different destiny.

2 of the 9 are Beliefs and Values.

There are 7 types of beliefs:

1.) Global Belief Systems

Global beliefs are generalizations about the important aspects of our lives. Understanding our global beliefs helps us understand what generalizations a person has made that control many decisions they make in their life.

2.) Identity
Identity is simply the way you describe yourself... to yourself. It's the belief we use to define our individuality. It's the combination of the beliefs about who you are, what you're capable of, and how you distinguish yourself from everyone else in the world. There is no other force this powerful in the human psyche.

3.) Values (Deepest desires/worst fears)
Values are the things we move away from in order to avoid pain or move toward in order to gain pleasure in a given context.

4.) Rules ("The source of heaven or hell within")
Rules are the determining factor in our decisions about which behavior to utilize in order to experience our values. Some rules have a higher priority because violating them causes greater pain.

5.) Vehicles
Vehicles are the method(s) a person uses to try to meet their needs. The way someone gets from where they are to where their needs are met. They can be positive, negative, or neutral.

6.) Situation Specific Beliefs
Situations specific beliefs are the organizing beliefs behind the way a person evaluates a specific situation or context. Also called "infield fly rules" (specific situations where it's okay to violate your rules).

7.) Metaprograms (these are really fascinating especially in this thread, you can see the differences in how people perceive things)
Metaprograms help us understand how a person processes information. There are a variety of ways we process information and we all use different combinations of those ways.

If you ask someone "how do you know when you're really good at something?" Internal people will look to themselves to make decisions, external people look to others. To motivate internal people, we ask what's important to them. To motivate external people, we show how others think and behave.

Another example of metaprograms is visual/auditory/kinesthetic.

Then specifically there are Values (a belief about what's most important in life to get or avoid, in the notes above).

If you simply start asking and answering the questions:

1. What's most important in life? What will you do anything to get in this life?
2. What ELSE is most important in life? What ELSE will do you do anything to get in this life?

Then...

1. What's most important to AVOID in life? What will you do almost anything to avoid?
2. What ELSE is most important to AVOID in life? What ELSE will you do almost anything to avoid?

You've got a big ol' list of:

Success
Freedom
Health
Love
etc. etc.

And another list of

Rejection
Failure
Sadness
Loneliness
etc.

Almost nobody consciously changes their values. It's old conditioning. (Which you COULD change anytime you wanted to) But when people have conflicting values they often end up in a really screwed up place internally. It causes the most internal pain.

Imagine someone whose most important thing is success but the most important thing for them to avoid is rejection. You can already guess what their life looks like and the challenges they might have.

It's a huge conversation but so many people (especially on this forum) tell someone "you just don't want it bad enough" if they don't follow through but the truth is they have conflicts internally. "I want to make the sale but I never want to get rejected" or "I want success but I never want to be judged" or "I want love but I never want to feel loss."
 

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