Veganism / Plant-Based Diet

[Delmania]

How do you know someone is a vegan? Don't worry, they'll tell you.

 

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[joschi]

@Delmania "How do you know someone is a vegan? Don't worry, they'll tell you. "

You mean like this? ​

 

[Vigilante]

If God didn't intend animals to be eaten, He wouldn't have made them out of meat.

 

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[csalvato]

The way you are doing research is idiotic.

1. Doctors are not authorities on nutrition. They are authorities on assessing symptoms and providing a diagnosis based on shit tons of memorization and, in many cases, a complete lack of intelligent thought. Even Doctors will agree with this, right @Iwokeup ?
2. People making blog posts, YouTube videos, and other online claims is not "evidence", "science" or "proof".

Here's how you make an intelligent decision about your health:

• Learn Anatomy and Physiology. If you don't want to know every little detail, then just read the chapters on cell structure, cell biology, the digestive system, the endocrine system and metabolism.
• Read articles that explain each of the viewpoints, backed up with citations from primary, medical sources (e.g. Full Text of research studies).
• Read the primary sources.
• Analyze and scrutinize the primary sources. This may require you to understand things like statistics. That way you will know that a study of 4 participants is absolutely meaningless.

Here's why:

• Without understanding biology and A&P, you will never understand nutrition or the current research.
• Without reading the research papers, you can't understand the new concepts that are emerging.
• By ignoring other people's opinions, and focusing on the facts, you will be able to generate an objective opinion.

If you're not really willing to do that, IMHO, you have no F*cking place preaching nutrition to people.

Here's my opinion, as someone who has done all this several times over:

• Veganism is bullshit
• The best "diet" is Paleo (focusing on grass fed, wild and pastured products). It makes the most logical sense and is supported by the empirical data focusing on mechanisms and when examining epidemiological data.
• Vegetarianism is on the right track, but is based on a lot of flawed and incomplete logic.
• Paleo not focusing on grass fed, wild and pastured products is worse than vegetarianism, but better than everything else.
• Every other diet isn't even worth discussion because they are obscure, unpopular and ineffective.

EDIT: I forgot the topic of ethics. IMHO Eating meat is different from how meat is handled. A lot of people get into veganism to avoid animal suffering. I personally don't think an animal who is destined to be food should be tortured...and pastured/wild animals are not tortured. To me, that's ethically sound to eat them, as that's what I've evolved to do (a claim that is wholly rooted in actual science and anthropology).

But don't take my word for it. Do real research. None of this YouTube and anecdotal nonsense.

 

[SBS.95]

Damn you, I wanted to post this as soon as I read the thread title!

Hope to keep this topic clean, as a lot of people are offended by it. What I see often is, that they know inside them that something isn't right, so they get angry and don't want to admit or change it, maybe because it takes some time and effort.

I'll be honest, you lost me here. This attitude right here is why I can't stand many people in this whole vegan movement. There is nothing wrong with me, or anyone else, who wants to eat meat. You do not have something "better" inside of you. Coincidentally, there is nothing wrong with you for NOT eating meat. I don't look down on you, yet for some reason (despite you clamoring for open-mindedness) you seem to look down on others.

One of my closest friends is vegan. I don't think there is anything wrong with her, and she doesn't think there is anything wrong with people eating meat. Vegans are A-OK as far as I'm concerned. If you want to convert people to your lifestyle, go ahead and try. But telling people there is something wrong inside of them is not the way to do it.

Get off your high horse.
Can you actually ride horses as a vegan or is that against the rules too?

 

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[KCErnest]

You could have a look at this guy, who is the strongest men in germany and has broken some world records:

Also Mr. Universe 2014 recently went Vegan:

You sure like posting youtube videos with anecdotal experiences inside instead of anything substantial. I can link a story about a nutrition professor that lost something like 30 lbs in a few months eating nothing but hostess cakes just to prove a point. You're not really helping your case much.

 

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[Arty]

The problem with people switching to a so called 'plant based diet', vegetarian or vegan, is that they forget that it's supposed to be PLANT BASED, it doesn't just mean not eating animal products and instead eating whatever else you want.
It's a very hard diet to stick to, particularly if you want to avoid unhealthy things like Soy and Wheat.
That 'fake meat' everyone is going nuts over is about as healthy as a cardboard box.
If you want to successfully switch to a plant based diet, avoid fake meats, avoid soy, gluten, and anything else that's heavily marketed to vegans.
Instead, the bulk of your diet should be fruit, potatoes, quinoa, beans, polenta, lentils, raw vegetables (particularly Cruciferous vegetables like cabbage and turnip), pumpkin, spinach, avocado etc etc etc.
REAL FOOD, in other words.
But you're really limiting yourself by choosing not to eat eggs, honey, meat, organs, bone marrow and milk.

 

[csalvato]

Maybe "diets" should be added to politics and religion as forbidden forum topics. Too personal and no one has ever influenced another, just everyone defending their own points of view. Kind of a waste of pixels and brain power.

Personally the point of my posts was not to convince anyone of anything aside from the fact that they should do their research or keep their ignorance to themselves.

Diet and nutrition are approached like religious beliefs because people use the same heuristic logic to come to their conclusions. Faith and logical shortcuts over research and understanding.

If that means lumping diet together in the same category and making them off limits then fine... But that also fosters an environment where facts are meaningless.

After all we aren't talking about whether or not Black Lives Matter. We're talking about whether the cells in your body need animal sourced b12. One is based on opinions and ideologies ... The other is based on cell biology and concrete proven cellular processes and mechanisms.

Would you want to be in a community that ignores facts and sticks to only "feel good" threads? If you don't like nutrition, maybe you should just avoid the threads on that topic?

 

[csalvato]

Again coming back to my point in how much discussions about diets are just like discussions about religion and politics.

But beliefs aren't arrived at rationally.

Any great discovery or invention has started by tossing out all the previously held beliefs that were really just limitations.

There's way too much to address here because you really need to go through an entire mindset shift, and that's not really my responsibility. I am confident that if you take nutrition and diet seriously you will come around eventually (as most people tend to), but that day is not today.

Just some key points here:

• Diets and nutrition are NOT like religion because religion inherently requires faith. Politics do too, to an extent. People apply faith to diet because they don't like to research. They like to live with other people's opinions which are, when you get to the root, based on nothing of substance.
  
  
• Diets create identity, sure, but that's not what I am saying AT ALL. I don't associate myself with any diet because no diet is really right. They present benefits and drawbacks, and I recommend "Paleo" as a starting point upon which to begin experimenting with how your body personally responds. People who look at this as "paleo" vs. "veganism" vs." vegetarianism" vs. "blood type diet" or whatever are taking a shortcut by lumping people into bins. Often people are lumped into bins because it's easy to exercise strawman and ad hominem attacks (which are logical fallacies) to put an end to these conversations. It's not right.
  
  
• Here's why it's not right to do that: nutrition is based on cellular mechanisms and how they come together to create a functioning organism. When someone says that you can get by with all of your B12 from yeast, for example, this is incorrect, dangerous and wrong. It's akin to someone telling your friend that their car would run better if you poured water into the gas tank. If you hear someone say that to your friend you would run over and say "WTF Don't pour F*cking water in your gas tank idiot! That guy knows nothing about how cars run!".
  
  
• I don't care what you eat. But if you are going to tell people what to eat, you should have done some real solid research first on PRIMARY SOURCES - not what joe-blow-vegan's blog says. Unfortunately, vegans never do this because they can't. Once they start to do it, they run into all of the logical problems that have been addressed in this thread....and they quit.

 

[DeletedUser394]

I see why threads like religion and politics are banned.

No ones opinion has been swayed by either side. And this topic has been going on for a couple of weeks now.

Eat/Don't eat whatever you want. Pray/Don't pray to whoever you want. Vote/Don't vote for whoever you want. Nobody cares.

The circlejerk is strong in this thread.

 

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[KCErnest]

Hope to keep this topic clean, as a lot of people are offended by it. What I see often is, that they know inside them that something isn't right, so they get angry and don't want to admit or change it, maybe because it takes some effort and time.

I see this stance a lot with vegetarians. Read a lot of 'science' as it only relates/supports your side and think it's the gospel. I'm just very curious, what makes a vegan smarter than biology? It's becoming clear that inflammation once thought to be caused from meat is actually being caused by the animals diet of grains and high PUFA levels. I'm assuming you are only doing this because you think it's healthy correct? Paleo is about the only thing that makes a lot of sense.

Remember: There are Essential Amino Acids(EAA's), Essential Fatty Acids(EFA's), no such thing as an essential carb.

 

[ToniLene]

I agree paleo isn't perfect at all... But for the "out of the box" diet paradigms it's the closest to one I think is nearly universally a good starting point.

The best answer to the nutrition question is to understand the root of it and then experiment with yourself while integrating intelligent science.

If someone were to ask my opinion, which no one has, I recommend starting with strict paleo (which is minimal) for 30 days. Then add more stuff into the diet gradually for a week at a time noting if you feel better or worse. Few people do that but those that do feel and look awesome.

I hear you. The thing about Paleo is that depending on where they were in the world, the caveman diet varied. Cavemen in North America ate a different diet than Cavemen in Siberia, etc... I get what you're saying generally though.

For anyone that eats beans, soaking beans and grains to breakdown the phytic acid is a must as is sprouting them for optimum nutrients if you have time. The Weston A. Price research on diet is what I tend to practice with my own preferences mixed in. People twisted his work a bit after his death, but his books remain valuable research on the diets of indigenous peoples.

Cutting out processed, anti-foods would be the best thing anyone could do for their family. vegan diet is far too extreme in my opinion(unless it's for ethical reasons). Sidenote: My first serious boyfriend was a radical vegan years ago and for some reason he got me to agree to stop eating meat, lol. I went a few months down the path then one day I was with my aunt and we stopped at Wendy's and I just had to have a burger, so I gobbled it down, went home and barfed it up out of guilt, haha. That relationship didn't last long. He was a moody, skinny dude.

 

[Nomangee]

How do you know someone is a vegan? Don't worry, they'll tell you.

That joke, which I never heared yet but yeah this topic is 100% about it and I only want to share my experience and maybe there are a few people in this forum who are thinking about trying the lifestyle. I have never told someone that I'm vegan, besides when it comes to eating and I need to explain why I can't eat it.

And yes I'm no hippy wongo bongo guy who is living on a tree Normal guy, who got sick and found a way to improve his health and compassion through diet.

 

[joschi]

@Delmania he is a little creazy maybe but seems to be healthy, he gave up the competetive part a long time ago...
ive spoken to several doctors about this topic. interesting is, that nearly every one in the academic medicine business says "meat is harmless" but as soon as you get to people who are deeper into nutrions i always hear "vegetables and fruits first". Once a doctor that i highly respect told me "animal proteine once a week is ok"

so i think everyone has to decide for them self in the end. on the other hand is the current meat consumption and production not sustainable. so it will change. so or so.

at all:
see it this way: if the mass of western society continues produce and consume meat on this rate there will be no rainforrest left, which will cause the death of millions, if not billions. so even if eating meat would be healthy, in the current way it cant be (in the long term)

and thats why my kudos goes to @Nomangee

 

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[joschi]

@Nicko a vegan seeks pleasure elsewhere, or in other foods. His pleassure is that no animal has to suffer for him. If you can life with the knowledge that thausends and thausands of animals will suffer and die for your pleasure, thats your thing. Most vegans tollerate this, but that doesnt mean that they accept it. I think @Nomangee `s goeal was here to do his part and help people out who are thinking about adapting a vegan life style, not start a discussion if veganism is a good or bad thing. and i am pretty disapointed that very smart people who are all entreprenours are seem to be offended by this.

 

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[Kelly C]

Veganism made me quite unhealthy. I was vegan for about 3 years and although I felt good to begin with..over time I started feeling like I had severe fatigue. I found it difficult getting out of bed in the morning and my hair was in terrible shape. I initially did it to try and help my digestion and asthma.

I am glad I did it, as I found out some asthma triggers I would never have found out if I hadn't...but it isn't healthy in my opinion.

I don't like muscle meat much...but I make a lot of stock from bones, eat liver, lots of fish and eggs in my diet. I must say since upping my protein/fat intake for the FIRST time in at least 10 years my digestion has been brilliant. I used to have constant stomach issues...severe bloating that would cause me agony at night and then feel drained all the time. I had to be very careful not to eat anywhere near bedtime...now I don't have this issue.

I never went vegan for ethical vegans but I did think about the ethical implications of meat eating and do source locally. I don't buy anything mass produced and I think that is the way forward. I don't think its wrong to eat meat - I think its essential. I don't ever want to feel the way I did after a year of veganism...I got literally NOTHING done for those few years...it was wasted life.

 

[Iwokeup]

Doctors are not authorities on nutrition. They are authorities on assessing symptoms and providing a diagnosis based on shit tons of memorization and, in many cases, a complete lack of intelligent thought. Even Doctors will agree with this, right @Iwokeup ?

1. No, we're NOT authorities on nutrition. But we're far better than most 'experts' out there and perhaps lower down than PhDs/Research physicians who spend their careers studying nutrition.

2.

'and in many cases, a complete lack of intelligent thought.'

Not true at all. I think about each and every one my patients and the honest truth is that most physicians do the same. That's an insulting comment dude.

Look, just like in life or the Universe, there's something called the Normal distribution:

What that means in practice is that 95% of ALL PATIENTS PRESENTING TO US fall within 2 standard deviations from the mean,or 'average' patient.
What that ALSO means is that 95% of PHYSICIANS will be within the same range of COMPETENCE.

If you want to narrow the intervals down, then ~70% of doctors and patients will be 'close to average' and that means that, honestly, common complaints/ailments really are COMMON.

Also realize that physicians are just like any other human system. If you have doctors that have rarely seen or managed very difficult or unusual cases then they're less likely to pick up something out of the norm. Though with the advent of the Internet and CME requirements and resources like the NEJM online, Medscape, PubMed and UpToDate, it's less and less acceptable to not at least be in the BALLPARK of the diagnosis.

Anyway, please don't belittle physicians as 'unthinking.' Most of what we see we have seen hundreds/thousands of times and we're employing heuristic analysis to decrease the mental energy/effort/impact on the patient (tests/radiation/pain) to arrive at a correct diagnosis/treatment algorithim. Only when a patient's symptoms are outside of the norm and/or dangerous do we get triggered to 'go farther down that route.'

Now for me, as an Emergency Medicine doctor, my first/last/always question when I see a patient is, "Is what they're complaining of, or what I am seeing/hearing/smelling indicative of a deadly or potentially deadly condition?" If YES, then it's big workup time. If not, then not and it can likely be worked up at a more leisurely pace with their doctor.

Add in the pressure from all sides to see more patients in less time and penalties for 'taking too long" to spend time with patients, and then you get situations where some things are just missed.

Finally (though not conclusively), probably 15% of all patient complaints and symptoms(not signs) are psychological in origin.

Peace.

 

[ToniLene]

1. No, we're NOT authorities on nutrition. But we're far better than most 'experts' out there and perhaps lower down than PhDs/Research physicians who spend their careers studying nutrition.

2. Not true at all. I think about each and every one my patients and the honest truth is that most physicians do the same. That's an insulting comment dude.

Look, just like in life or the Universe, there's something called the Normal distribution:

What that means in practice is that 95% of ALL PATIENTS PRESENTING TO US fall within 2 standard deviations from the mean,or 'average' patient.
What that ALSO means is that 95% of PHYSICIANS will be within the same range of COMPETENCE.

If you want to narrow the intervals down, then ~70% of doctors and patients will be 'close to average' and that means that, honestly, common complaints/ailments really are COMMON.

Also realize that physicians are just like any other human system. If you have doctors that have rarely seen or managed very difficult or unusual cases then they're less likely to pick up something out of the norm. Though with the advent of the Internet and CME requirements and resources like the NEJM online, Medscape, PubMed and UpToDate, it's less and less acceptable to not at least be in the BALLPARK of the diagnosis.

Anyway, please don't belittle physicians as 'unthinking.' Most of what we see we have seen hundreds/thousands of times and we're employing heuristic analysis to decrease the mental energy/effort/impact on the patient (tests/radiation/pain) to arrive at a correct diagnosis/treatment algorithim. Only when a patient's symptoms are outside of the norm and/or dangerous do we get triggered to 'go farther down that route.'

Now for me, as an Emergency Medicine doctor, my first/last/always question when I see a patient is, "Is what they're complaining of, or what I am seeing/hearing/smelling indicative of a deadly or potentially deadly condition?" If YES, then it's big workup time. If not, then not and it can likely be worked up at a more leisurely pace with their doctor.

Add in the pressure from all sides to see more patients in less time and penalties for 'taking too long" to spend time with patients, and then you get situations where some things are just missed.

Finally (though not conclusively), probably 15% of all patient complaints and symptoms(not signs) are psychological in origin.

Peace.

I have to agree that a majority of doctors don't know anything about nutrition. Why is Pedialyte(which is pure trash) recommended rather than ORS(which is natural and more effective)? Why do doctors recommend Gatorade which is also trash from a nutritional standpoint? A nurse tried to give me Gatorade after I gave birth(natural, no meds)!

Not to mention the Glucose test drink that pregnant women are tricked into drinking to test for gestational diabetes? A pancake breakfast with orange juice would provide an accurate glucose reading, but hospitals have to sell that Glucose drink as they're contracted to do, so they would prefer pregnant women ingest trash rather than suggest healthy alternatives.

Every doctor that I've ever dealt with has recommended such garbage and of course when I tell them that I don't believe that product/drug is the best option, I'm looked at as the misinformed one. Many pediatricians are still giving kids antibiotics for ear infections, that's how bad the medical system is!

Rant over.

 

[biggeemac]

Interesting thread.....I have become very interested in healthy living since my wife has been sick this year. She is recovered now.

That being said, a new think tank just started a youtube channel that I stumbled onto this morning. They are talking about this very subject, which they weren't able to be as liberal with when they were practicing doctors.....simply because the medical folks cant patent cures or make a lot of money when it comes to using food as medicine. It would drive me insane to know how to cure my patients and not really be able to guide them properly simply because of economics.

Anyway, thought this might be interesting to someone on this thread.

 

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[JustinBoshans]

If you want people to convert give them some actual evidence besides a 50 minute youtube video and your personal opinion.

The crappy thing about most of the evidence for ANY diet is for any study you cite there are 10 more saying that study is wrong.

The best argument for veganism currently is that meat is not necessary.

Basically debating evidence isn't helping vegans get very far. Most people will do something and conform to it if they think it's normal or they'll fit in.
Eating meat, normal. Not having animal products in your diet, not normal. Living on the sidewalk, normal. Starting a fastlane business, not normal. If veganism seemed normal it would be easier to get people to follow those practices.

The example used for this was a hotel trying to get people to reuse their towels. If they said "it helped the environment to reuse your towels" every now and then more people would reuse their towels. If they said "75% of people reused their towels" even more people reused their towels. If they said "75% of people who stay in room F20 reuse their towels" the majority of people reused their towels. Nobody wants to be that one a**hole who didn't do X thing.

 

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[csalvato]

lot of animals eat their own poop so if we're going with what cavemen did argument, maybe they ate their own poop and we should too.

You just lost all credibility. Smh

 

[Iwokeup]

Thas one of the biggest Problems. MD's need in there 6+ years training around 6h in the field of nutrition for passing it, yep only one day. The reason is, all the big facilities who make up the tests and training for the education are owned by the drug industry.

This is a completely RETARDED AND UNINFORMED comment. Just so you know...

And no, I am not 'owned' or 'owe' the pharmaceutical industry. But if it makes you feel better to attribute all of the ill of American Medicine to Big Pharma then by all means, go ahead.

Rather, the truth is more nuanced and complicated, like most things.

 

[ToniLene]

But "eating like cavemen" is not the reason I say to eat paleo.

As an aside, fecal transplants are a real thing...

Fecal transplants yes, to heal gut issues usually caused from taking antibiotics.

Eating poop is not a thing --for sane people, anyway.

 

[Jonleehacker]

Maybe "diets" should be added to politics and religion as forbidden forum topics. Too personal and no one has ever influenced another, just everyone defending their own points of view. Kind of a waste of pixels and brain power.

 

[The-J]

Maybe "diets" should be added to politics and religion as forbidden forum topics. Too personal and no one has ever influenced another, just everyone defending their own points of view. Kind of a waste of pixels and brain power.

My views on diet are very similar to my views on religion and politics, both of which are far too controversial for this forum and will make a lot of people mad.

Honestly guys, eat what you want. If you want to not eat meat due to moral/religious obligations, fine. If you want to give up bread and beans to eat like what you think a caveman eats like, fine. If you want to eat a McDonalds exclusive diet because it's tasty... knock yourself out. Hell, it doesn't even matter what your reasoning for eating a certain way is.

Just don't try to sell it to people and claim that it'll help fix their long-standing medical issues. To me, that's just as bad as proselytizing by telling people that praying to your God will cure their cancer. 99% of you guys aren't doctors, and the ones that ARE doctors are likely going to share the same view.

If it helps you get your vitamins, minerals, macros, and fiber while at the same time avoiding foods that don't settle well with you (gluten, dairy, etc) then that's your diet and it works for YOU. Leave it at that.

 

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[csalvato]

But the thing is, just like religion, you're never going to prove that "the cells in your body need animal sourced b12" no one is ever going to scientifically prove anything like this, because I'll always be able to drag in a vegan 80 year old 3 hour marathon runner who will invalidate your "proof" (given that good science doesn't have exceptions- for example apples don't sometimes fly up into the air - so the law of gravity remains scientifically proven.).

That's not true. The mechanisms that show that vitamin B12 are necessary are documented extremely well. Vegans are quite literally walking around sick from various vitamin deficiencies, whether or not they run marathons and appear healthy.

That's the problem. Anecdotal evidence like pulling out an 80 year old marathon running vegan is NOT robust evidence. Controlled experiments in cell biology are.

 

[Jonleehacker]

Again coming back to my point in how much discussions about diets are just like discussions about religion and politics.

Why do you care if vegans are running around deficient in b12?

The problem, with this thread, and in the world in general, is that people create identities around things like diets, political affiliations and religion. Once we create an identity in our selves, then we need to attack those around us who don't support our identity.

The happiest people I know are little kids, they don't care a lick about what their best friends eat, or if what religion their friend's family follows.

Identities create separation and separation always will work to find reasons for more separation... thus the state of the world. IMHO having an identity about being vegan or paleo or being an anti-vegan or anti-paleo, despite whatever mountain of evidence you can stand on, is about the unhealthiest thing you can do to your body, your friendships and your world.

 

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[ToniLene]

But beliefs aren't arrived at rationally. EVERYONE, including you and me, have many beliefs that are completely irrational. The belief that you are presenting that, "fact-based beliefs and statements are the only ones that are valid" is really worth questioning

Any great discovery or invention has started by tossing out all the previously held beliefs that were really just limitations.

You missed my point and yes, when you're discussing a serious topic, it's best to present facts.
If an opinion is based on facts, great. Yours was not.

 

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[Mineralogic]

You keep wanting to make this discussion with me about those ner-do-good dirty rotten vegans who've offended you by trying to get you to belief things that aren't supported by facts, and you're lumping me into that camp... which, given the lovely brandy-braised bacon rapped dates I had as an appetizer with last night's meal - is clearly unwarranted.

I'm really sorry that you've been so offended by the nasty vegan types.

My only point was ever that diets should be added to politics and religion as forbidden forum topics... the discussions always - as we are proving at this very moment - bring out divisiveness and go nowhere.

I think the fact you want diet/nutrition/lifestyle choice to be considered a forbidden topic as very divisive actually... thought police level.

thru reasoning and debate people COME together

in fact there were times in history where it was considered GREAT to lose a debate..it meant you LEARNED something and received value.

not anymore I guess

 

[AndrewNC]

Did you have an actual point/comment?

Nope - the main point was to push @csalvato 's buttons because we talk about this a lot

But my actual comment, I would what I would label as "Vegan-ish".

When I first discovered vegan culture in 2014- it was introduced from the animal rights perspective.

Imagine your are an alien that hovers over earth in a giant space ship. They see one species (humans) corral billions of other living beings into factories, murdering billions of living beings per year, and covering them in condiments to eat. All of this when we can survive off of plants. Yes, I do notice most vegans look frail...so read on.

This directs the conversation beyond the concept of self and towards the greater good of this planet as a whole.

What makes humans more important than other living beings?

With this Philosophy they follow - this explains why they get so angry at non-vegans. They view it the same exact thing as if you are taking billions of Asians, blacks, whites, etc per year and murdering them for food...when there are other food sources that can keep them alive.

That is how a lot of vegans view it.

And they do have a valid concern to start from, if you look at it from a bigger picture perspective that goes beyond self (which most people don't view things from).

i agree with a lot of this - with one reservation. I call it "the circle of life".

Is killing animals inherently wrong? This opinion comes from a more spiritual perspective which is beyond the realm of this thread alone.

Under my view - energy is transferred from one source to another and it forms the basis of keeping this planet going. But at the same time animals are treated horribly in slaughter houses.

I do my best to eat a "mostly" vegan diet - and The meat I do buy (for b12 and other health related concerns stated above) - I strive for it to be humanely treated/ free range/ more ethical.

But that's just me. My deeper belief is "whatever you believe fm be true, is true..in you reality) and in a million years, it doesn't really matter.

Kind of took the thread away from the health perspective because a lot of people (including myself up until last year) never viewed things from this perspective, and it's important to realize because this is how most vegans view it.