Veganism / Plant-Based Diet

[Nomangee]

If God didn't intend animals to be eaten, He wouldn't have made them out of meat.

So as humans are out of meat, what does that tell you?

 

[Guest34764]

Bearing in mind that people do tend to sound different on a recording than in real life, he looks like a fit young man who sounds normal. Is he a competitive body builder? Is there some reason he needs to be bulked up?

He used to do physique competitions.Then he started hallucinating and stopped.There's not a reason for him to be big but if you watch the interview.He pretty much starts drama with people way bigger than him.I don't really care but others seem to do.My previous post was probably out of line.

 

[AndrewNC]

What if you don't even need to eat plants to live?

Water and Sunlight diet FTW

http://seattle.cbslocal.com/2013/06/07/woman-living-off-only-water-sunlight-for-6-months/

 

[Nicko]

Food (for me at least) is one of life's great passions. What would a vegan eat as a substitute to any of the following:

A piece of brie or camembert
Oysters
Bacon
Roast pork belly
Waygu steak
Bacon
Garlic prawns
Lobster bisque
Bacon
Pate
Chicken wings
Bacon
BBQ spare ribs
Snow crab sliders
Bacon

Did I mention bacon ?

 

[ToniLene]

Came back to the forum a few weeks ago and wan't to become active again. Saw that no one ever spoke about the topic, even that there are a lot of people in the entrepreneur/nomad community that are into this lifestyle.

I'm by no means an expert in the field, but I have studied it over the last few years, after I got badly sick. At one point I could only lie for around one month in bed, besides eating and a few other things that were urgent.

My story:
Got out of school, knew I never wanted to get a normal job. Got into gaming, wasted so much time and my eating and sport habits got worst. Got the breakdown above described and since 3 years I'm trying to improve my life in every aspect. Which at least I could already improve in some areas.

So over the last 3 years around I tried to find out about internal and external things that can make us sick in this modern society, which are a lot. Since 1 1/2 years im fully vegan and around 3 years vegetarian.

I know it's a "hot" topic and everybody has his own opinions.



So ask me anything about the lifestyle, health, environment aspects, ethics...

As a start, I would like to post a video about a conversation a vegan youtuber has with his non vegan friend:

Hope to keep this topic clean, as a lot of people are offended by it. What I see often is, that they know inside them that something isn't right, so they get angry and don't want to admit or change it, maybe because it takes some time and effort.

What's not right? Eating meat? Please. Sounds like you went from one extreme to another. Anything in excess will have detrimental effect. A well balanced diet that includes grass fed beef, fish, chicken, veggies, fruits is ideal and how our ancestors survived.

Vegan/Vegetarianism is linked to mental illness, so you might want to check your B12 and iron levels and keep them high. Omega fatty acids from fish are also crucial to brain health.

Vegetarian diet and mental disorders: results from a representative community survey

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3466124/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23356638

 

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[ToniLene]

@Nicko a vegan seeks pleasure elsewhere, or in other foods. His pleassure is that no animal has to suffer for him. If you can life with the knowledge that thausends and thausands of animals will suffer and die for your pleasure, thats your thing. Most vegans tollerate this, but that doesnt mean that they accept it. I think @Nomangee `s goeal was here to do his part and help people out who are thinking about adapting a vegan life style, not start a discussion if veganism is a good or bad thing. and i am pretty disapointed that very smart people who are all entreprenours are seem to be offended by this.

You're speaking philosophically based on your personal beliefs. Just as not everyone is Christian or Muslim, etc...not every believes in Veganism. As the higher species(depending whom you ask) humans have dominion over animals. I by no means support animal cruelty, but animal husbandry has existed as a way of life for thousands of years and it's not going to end until the end of time.

I know a few vegans that are more extreme than the Taliban. It gets a bit annoying being preached to.

 

[ToniLene]

if you want to do something in your own life ethically such as minimizing animal suffering, then do it for that.

but know this, the proof from SCIENCE is coming in heavy now that PLANTS feel suffering as well.

There is a whole food and energy vampirism cycle on this planet most don't want to admit

That is so true. I first read those studies over 12 years ago in college(my first stint) after reading "The Celestine Prophecy." That's probably a bit too new age for some folks. Shhhh...

 

[Sheps]

They feel pain, but they can't run away, they can't even scream... It's barbaric really.

 

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[Mineralogic]

The problem with people switching to a so called 'plant based diet', vegetarian or vegan, is that they forget that it's supposed to be PLANT BASED, it doesn't just mean not eating animal products and instead eating whatever else you want.
It's a very hard diet to stick to, particularly if you want to avoid unhealthy things like Soy and Wheat.
That 'fake meat' everyone is going nuts over is about as healthy as a cardboard box.
If you want to successfully switch to a plant based diet, avoid fake meats, avoid soy, gluten, and anything else that's heavily marketed to vegans.
Instead, the bulk of your diet should be fruit, potatoes, quinoa, beans, polenta, lentils, raw vegetables (particularly Cruciferous vegetables like cabbage and turnip), pumpkin, spinach, avocado etc etc etc.
REAL FOOD, in other words.
But you're really limiting yourself by choosing not to eat eggs, honey, meat, organs, bone marrow and milk.

and the other point is if you go "vegan" and are stuffing your freaking face with fake sugar and GRAINS and tons of starch all the time I guarantee you will have more health problems than meat eaters...guaranteed. Its hilarious how many problems a carb/ non animal diet has caused and yet none of the vegans have taken responsibility for perpetuating this. if you don't eat meat , eggs, anything animal based you will be FORCED to eat more of these fake plant processed foods by DEFAULT

 

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[csalvato]

As most of the studies are only accessable if you pay for them ( 50$+ per study) yeah it's quite a good way to get your information. Also most people I think won't read a full science article about such a topic.

Here is a small snippet out of one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20234038

This study has F*ck-all to do with veganism dude.

 

[csalvato]

I was in complete agreement until you mentioned Paleo which is just another gimmicky marketing fad diet. Checkout this article which links to university studies.
http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/12/20/study-paleo-diet-wrong

I agree paleo isn't perfect at all... But for the "out of the box" diet paradigms it's the closest to one I think is nearly universally a good starting point.

The best answer to the nutrition question is to understand the root of it and then experiment with yourself while integrating intelligent science.

If someone were to ask my opinion, which no one has, I recommend starting with strict paleo (which is minimal) for 30 days. Then add more stuff into the diet gradually for a week at a time noting if you feel better or worse. Few people do that but those that do feel and look awesome.

 

[BlakeIC]

Haha,That's VeganGains.He is actually Green and is incredibly small with horrible lifts.

And a known psychopath amongst the bb community

 

[Arty]

The Weston A. Price research on diet is what I tend to practice with my own preferences mixed in.

Yes yes and YES.
The Weston A. Price diet is by far the best.
It's the most accurate representation of the dietary habits of early humans, particularly the emphasis on eating organ meats, bone marrow and raw milk.

 

[ToniLene]

I contend that veganism and vegetarianism isn't any more or less ethical than a omnivorous diet...unless you grow all of your food yourself without any farm equipment.

I agree. I do have respect for the devout though. There are religious groups(Jains, Hindus, Buddhists, etc...) that refrain from meat and it's a millennia old way of life for them, not a fad like some of these five minute vegans that love to proselytize.

 

[Mineralogic]

I haven't read the WAP stuff, but the little I have heard I have liked.

I think the easiest way to think of it is that if it wasn't considered food 300 years ago, it's probably not really good for you. I think there's benefits to thinking back to earlier humans - but people tend to get carried away and start eating ants off of sticks and shit. It's just not necessary.

If phytic acid isnt removed it binds minerals and lowers mineral absorption....basically takes hard research to learn all this stuff as I see many here have done the work

Older cultures did do this as part of custom

People also took wood ash and recycled into garden

 

[Nick314]

Possibly one of the best reads about diet in general is "The Vegetarian Myth" by Lierre Keith, a former vegan.
She discusses the topic from every angle: politics, ecology, physiology/metabolism, energy, anthropology, and history.

Quite often the motives for choosing vegetarianism/veganism come from a moral goal, but unfortunately most of the conclusions are based on *misinformation*. The heart is in the right place, but the facts are wrong.

Truth: There is *no food on the planet* that can be created or harvested without involving the death of an animal in some way shape or form.
So the argument that "not harming any animals" by choosing what's on your plate is completely fallacious. She begins her book by busting myths around this, and explains in detail why it is so. She enumerates many such claims and explains in detail how they are twisting the truth or are outright incorrect--and what the real ramifications are.

This book is highly recommended in many dietary circles, not just non-vegetarian. It doesn't try to convince you not to be vegetarian/vegan--it tries to educated, thus allowing anyone who wants to continue living as such to do so for reasons other than misinformed mantras they merely heard from someone else.

 

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[Mineralogic]

1. No, we're NOT authorities on nutrition. But we're far better than most 'experts' out there and perhaps lower down than PhDs/Research physicians who spend their careers studying nutrition.

2. Not true at all. I think about each and every one my patients and the honest truth is that most physicians do the same. That's an insulting comment dude.

Look, just like in life or the Universe, there's something called the Normal distribution:

What that means in practice is that 95% of ALL PATIENTS PRESENTING TO US fall within 2 standard deviations from the mean,or 'average' patient.
What that ALSO means is that 95% of PHYSICIANS will be within the same range of COMPETENCE.

If you want to narrow the intervals down, then ~70% of doctors and patients will be 'close to average' and that means that, honestly, common complaints/ailments really are COMMON.

Also realize that physicians are just like any other human system. If you have doctors that have rarely seen or managed very difficult or unusual cases then they're less likely to pick up something out of the norm. Though with the advent of the Internet and CME requirements and resources like the NEJM online, Medscape, PubMed and UpToDate, it's less and less acceptable to not at least be in the BALLPARK of the diagnosis.

Anyway, please don't belittle physicians as 'unthinking.' Most of what we see we have seen hundreds/thousands of times and we're employing heuristic analysis to decrease the mental energy/effort/impact on the patient (tests/radiation/pain) to arrive at a correct diagnosis/treatment algorithim. Only when a patient's symptoms are outside of the norm and/or dangerous do we get triggered to 'go farther down that route.'

Now for me, as an Emergency Medicine doctor, my first/last/always question when I see a patient is, "Is what they're complaining of, or what I am seeing/hearing/smelling indicative of a deadly or potentially deadly condition?" If YES, then it's big workup time. If not, then not and it can likely be worked up at a more leisurely pace with their doctor.

Add in the pressure from all sides to see more patients in less time and penalties for 'taking too long" to spend time with patients, and then you get situations where some things are just missed.

Finally (though not conclusively), probably 15% of all patient complaints and symptoms(not signs) are psychological in origin.

Peace.

I'd wager at least 90% of the "physchological" causes of symptoms can be directly traced to things like ENVIRONMENT illness and other offshoots of toxicity to various degrees and processed differently by each person's specific DNA. Several pysch issues can be linked to specific crucial minerals or vitamins. But that won't make big pharma money

Having gone thru a toxic mold experience, I had do to all my own DD and find out how ignorant the medical establishment is on many NON-emergency treatments. American MD's are great at emergency and basic allopathic treatments. They are great at specialty treatments and even drugs. They are terrible at implementing nutritional strategies and wholistic treatments unless you see a ND. We all know who funded the allopathic paradigm, don't we?


But is it curing people and making the US the healthiest nation in the world ? Especially since we pay the most by far? No

I realize now the first question any non emergency SICK PERSON should go thru is to question what they have been eating, where they live, what is their environment, do they work in a factory with chemicals, etc.

60% of the public buildings out there have mold and potentially toxic mold in them

30% of ALL of the people reading this board have DNA specific issue with detoxing mold and potentially other chemicals/heavy metals

At a certain point everyone will have their toxic threshold increase to a point of being sick or an "Event"

add in the junk in the food and water and well...you see where this all leads

 

[Mineralogic]

Semi relevant article to this thread and environmental factors: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...-was-easier-to-be-skinny-in-the-1980s/407974/

If veganism works to help people lose weight and stay healthy, I'd wager the reason is that it's mainly because a person is now actually paying to what and how much he is eating.

exactly, I know this might sound basic..but it might trigger an AHA moment for some folks. If you are loaded up for years with toxicity from your food, your air, your water, etc...you are more than likely FORCING your body to Hold onto fat. Your body has a process to detox and move toxic elements out of your body. If you are already unhealthy in some regard and/or toxified as well, it's very likely going to store certain crap in fat reserves and get it away from the primary organs

its not like everyone who ingests chemicals, pollutants, etc...is then immediately processing and dumping it out of the body and then you are "Good to go"

plus there is other hormonal/methalyation issues. Lots of these issues compound and then kick into a toxic event for people later in life if their system was primed for years by living in a musty room, taking flouride and gmo all the time, already deficient in vitamins/minerals/real FOOD etc

so picture people who take DRUGS, who always have side effects by scientific LAW basically. How does that contribute to a normal toxic load that one has already? Now add in years of it building up?

People not only lose B12 absorption as they age into 40s, they lose gluthothione which is a master antioxidant and detoxer!!!!

 

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[Nomangee]

the majority of MD's know nothing about nutrition because they are not taught it, like maybe 3 credits out of all that studying they do..if that?

Clinical nutrition and areas where people have to choose to focus on nutrition is very exciting today including interactions with the field of epigenetics. There is so much scientific evidence on how powerful REAL NUTRITION can be, its almost like living in the dark ages sometimes.

Thas one of the biggest Problems. MD's need in there 6+ years training around 6h in the field of nutrition for passing it, yep only one day. The reason is, all the big facilities who make up the tests and training for the education are owned by the drug industry. Also pharmaceutical companies have a highly aggressive marketing strategy towards doctors:

This corruption goes on and on....

Quite a good video to the topic, why a nurse quit after 17 years of practicing: http://www.chrisbeatcancer.com/oncology-nurse-quits-after-17-years/

 

[Mineralogic]

Thas one of the biggest Problems. MD's need in there 6+ years training around 6h in the field of nutrition for passing it, yep only one day. The reason is, all the big facilities who make up the tests and training for the education are owned by the drug industry. Also pharmaceutical companies have a highly aggressive marketing strategy towards doctors:

This corruption goes on and on....

Quite a good video to the topic, why a nurse quit after 17 years of practicing: http://www.chrisbeatcancer.com/oncology-nurse-quits-after-17-years/

excellent and very hard to do in today's system. Everything is set up so that to truly have integrity and honor you could potentially be setting yourself up for LESS MONEY/reward to tell the truth

there is also tons of research coming out showing how fungus is causing many types of cancers, even alzeheimers

 

[KCErnest]

I'm glad to see thinking individuals entered this post and said what I was too frustrated to continue on with.

It's funny that since everyone came in with research based knowledge debunking veganism, the OP hasn't shown his face again haha. Hopefully he is hitting the books and rethinking life choices that may have been made too hastily.

Great job everybody.

 

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[JustinBoshans]

That joke, which I never heared yet but yeah this topic is 100% about it and I only want to share my experience and maybe there are a few people in this forum who are thinking about trying the lifestyle. I have never told someone that I'm vegan, besides when it comes to eating and I need to explain why I can't eat it.

And yes I'm no hippy wongo bongo guy who is living on a tree Normal guy, who got sick and found a way to improve his health and compassion through diet.

But where do you get your protein broooooooooo???

You are going about it the right way. 3 year vegan here myself. I'm definitely not a hippie either, and know that if everyone suddenly became a vegan it would have a huge negative impact on society. That Gary Yourofsky speech is what got me into the ethics of veganism. At first I did it solely for health reasons.

 

[Mineralogic]

That's not much of an argument. What's necessary for you and what's necessary for me is based on two different criteria. Protein, b12 and iron from from plant based sources are not as bio-available as meat based protein, b12 and iron sources. That's just a fact.

b12 was the eye opener when I completely researched this and deduced my own deficiency. Here is a crucial ENERGY/Nerve vitamin and its only passed thru to Humans via meat. And the government and other people pushing vegan look like they are soft killing people to have them only focus on carbs. I was eating tons of carbs btw when I got my deficiency as I avoided meat for a time being a bachelor who didn't want to cook it at home

The vegans then peddle eating bacteria in the soil, etc as if that was ever natural to a cavemen. LMFAO...eating dirt- a new low. meanwhile the soil changes depending on where you are. That is what is so key about learning about trace minerals and how tons are missing from the soil in your organic veggies! WINK WINK

b12 is so crucial its the only water soluble vitamin ( meaning the ones you PISS out all the time) that has a distinct storage capacity in the body

 

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[JustinBoshans]

b12 was the eye opener when I completely researched this and deduced my own deficiency. Here is a crucial ENERGY/Nerve vitamin and its only passed thru to Humans via meat. And the government and other people pushing vegan look like they are soft killing people to have them only focus on carbs. I was eating tons of carbs btw when I got my deficiency as I avoided meat for a time being a bachelor who didn't want to cook it at home

The vegans then peddle eating bacteria in the soil, etc as if that was ever natural to a cavemen. LMFAO...eating dirt- a new low. meanwhile the soil changes depending on where you are. That is what is so key about learning about trace minerals and how tons are missing from the soil in your organic veggies! WINK WINK

b12 is so crucial its the only water soluble vitamin ( meaning the ones you PISS out all the time) that has a distinct storage capacity in the body

An interesting study I found was where they took a bunch of people who were B12 deficient. Bacteria in our bodies produce B12, but it happens at a point past where we absorb it. They took extracts from their poop and it cured their deficiency. A lot of animals eat their own poop so if we're going with what cavemen did argument, maybe they ate their own poop and we should too.

One of the problems I have is with blood testing. It only shows serum blood levels and not what's actually in the rest of your cells. It's a good starting point but not the be all end all of being nutritionally satiated. Also, blood tests are within normal ranges and what do the majority of people eat?

I personally use nutritional yeast which is packed full of B12.

Final note, B12 deficiency is not an exclusively vegan/vegetarian problem.

Lol, are you really comparing chicken wings to seitan? I haven't eaten seitan in years, but it's not remotely similar to chicken. Like tofu, you can impart flavors onto it and deep fry it, but it's spongy in texture.

It all depends on how you cook it. While It is true that seitan will never be the exact same as chicken wings in terms of texture, when cooked right which has taken some trial and error, it can come close. Then again I'm not a very picky eater either.

 

[ToniLene]

Eating sh!t = a nasty case of Ecoli.

Assuming that one is otherwise disease free, It's safe to say that if you generally feel lethargic and lacking mental clarity, it can typically be attributed to vitamin deficiencies and/or toxins.

I've found blood tests to be fairly accurate in my experience. Micronutrient testing is available and you can ask your physician for details on labs that offer it.

 

[csalvato]

The crappy thing about most of the evidence for ANY diet is for any study you cite there are 10 more saying that study is wrong.

This is wholly untrue.

If you look at only epidemiological studies, this is true. If you look at studies examining first principals and basic science mechanisms, it's very obvious that veganism isn't only unhealthy but incredibly dangerous as a diet AND a way of life.

This is what I mean by that if you aren't willing to do the things I mentioned in my last post you have no authority to discuss diet or nutrition.

Look at basic A&P and read a book or two on how the bidy works (NOT just on a diet ideology) and your beliefs on veganism will quickly fall apart.

 

[csalvato]

I recently got my bloodwork back from my MD and was disappointed in the lack of details as to what I was deficient in. Is there a better route to getting your blood tested?

There are but you need to order them yourself and pay out of pocket. For example you can pay 150-200 for gluten sensitivity test, or 100 for a vitamin D test, etc. best way is to google services or ask your local lab. Some niche nutrition advisors also offer this as a service with their lab partners

 

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[Red]

just remember to avoid Theranos right now. LOL

Why is that? I've been doing extensive bloodwork over the past 5 years & just switched to Theranos earlier this year & they are AMAZING. I can order whatever the F*ck I want & it's cheap. as. hell. Just remember who's running the smear campaign against them (ie: people who stand to lose a LOT of money).

My test results have been consistent with everything previously tested by other labs. I'm going back in a few days to have a slew of tests run as I continue my climb towards better health. Theranos is amazing.

 

[Sheps]

There are these two girls with a cup who would beg to differ...

And don't anyone accuse me of thread drift, it started with being vegan, my comment is completely in line with that discussion.

 

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[Jonleehacker]

After all we aren't talking about whether or not Black Lives Matter. We're talking about whether the cells in your body need animal sourced b12. One is based on opinions and ideologies ... The other is based on cell biology and concrete proven cellular processes and mechanisms.

But the thing is, just like religion, you're never going to prove that "the cells in your body need animal sourced b12" no one is ever going to scientifically prove anything like this, because I'll always be able to drag in a vegan 80 year old 3 hour marathon runner who will invalidate your "proof" (given that good science doesn't have exceptions- for example apples don't sometimes fly up into the air - so the law of gravity remains scientifically proven.).

Diets, like religion and politics are not, and never going to be, one size fits all. Our bodies are massively influenced by the way we think, our genetics and our environments. They aren't machines that have simple feeding codes that we just haven't unlocked yet.

 

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